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Genetics behind Gotra System – Not Really!

prasad1

Well-known member
The problem with trusting someone on instinct and not on facts.

Folks at Sanskriti magazine have written an article on the relationship between modern science of genetics and the Hindu Gotra system. The article has too many logical inconsistencies and factual errors, which I would like to discuss.
The crux of the argument is this: Ancient Rishis prohibited marriage within the same gotra to prevent inbreeding, which is known to cause diseases due to accumulation of recessive forms (alleles) of a gene. However, there are several problems with this argument.

Gotras were set up by Brahmins, and all brahmins were identified by being descendants of 8 rishis – so 8 gotras were established. Marriage between people of same Gotra is prohibited. Gotras can be assigned to adopted sons and disciples of a rishi. Gotras are passed only from Father to son, hence the tradition of transferring the last name in case of son but not daughter.

Now let’s look at the genetics argument before we move to point out the fallacies. The author points out that the reason behind this tradition is the perpetuation of Y chromosome. Y chromosome is passed only from father to son, so technically, a man of a particular gotra can trace his lineage to that particular rishi. That is the reason why a man keeps his family’s gotra while a woman who does not share the Y chromosome (since they have XX sex chromosomes) does not. Finally, the tradition to prohibit the marriage between people belonging to same gotra is set up in this way to prevent disease which may arise due to accumulation of recessive alleles of various genes.

The fact is that the folks in the vedic ages (roughly 3000 BCE) devised a patriarchal system based on rights of sons to family name and property. Also, incest taboo, which is an integral part of several cultures, probably played a role in setting the system of gotras. The taboo is almost universal in human cultures. Both these factors, patriarchy and incest taboo, along with misogyny, combined to form this archaic system of gotra which actually has no sound cultural or scientific basis. The attempt by folks at Sanskriti magazine to link this to genetics is an exercise in futility. It is time we stop putting the facade of modernity and science on these anachronisms and justifying them by using scientific means.

Rupinder holds a doctorate in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology from Michigan State University, USA.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Gotra is typically the Y chromosome passed on in generations in genomics parlance. You inherit a gotra from your father and pass it on if you are male. Women first are born with the Gotra of their father and then she inherits her husband’s gotra. I have no idea what gotra divorced women or LGBT folks have.
Sadly in our patriarchal society, they did not look at the X chromosome mutations causing diseases, autosomes or mitochondrial genes passed on from mother to daughter, which is just as important when it comes to preserving the health of your lineage.

What the ancient Rishis did not know then was about mitochondria and its importance. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is genetic material found in mitochondria. It is passed down from mothers to both sons and daughters, but sons cannot pass along their mothers’ mtDNA to their children. This is because mtDNA is transmitted through the female egg. You inherited your mtDNA exclusively from your mother. Examples of mitochondrial genetic defects include Leigh Syndrome, Neuropathy, ataxia, retinitis pigmentosa, and ptosis (NARP), and Diabetes mellitus and deafness (DAD).

There are also many disease conditions that are on the autosomes or X chromosome. So there is more to inbreeding and genetics and disease than just basing marriages on gotra exclusivity. Probabilistically speaking, they did reduce the chances, which I think was a good start.

If we wanted to truly prevent inbreeding and reduce chances of genetic disease in offspring, a comprehensive carrier screen would be the most ideal. At Mapmygenome we have BabyMap and MatchmyGenome to understand how the offspring may be affected and make informed decisions after genetic counselling. If you are someone who wants to know about prevention, we can advise you based on your Genomepatri.


In Tamil communities marrying uncle (mama) and cousins is common. It is taboo in North India.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
If one does Google search for "Gotra Y chromosomes" you will hit many links
If one is looking to refute the theory one of immediate link is follows


The above is copy and pasted in Post 1 (Post 1 did not provide this link, hence I am providing it here)

Now the fact that the author of that blog has a PhD in Biochemistry is not relevant here because his reasons in his blog copied and pasted are those of a layman.

The original article has science that this blog does not refute point by point using science. I dont have to be a scientist to know if the refutation is solid. It is not.

So it is another low value added blog in the internet space that has less credibility.

I am personally neither sold nor or against 'Y chromosome & Gotra theory' but there are lots of unconvincing blogs in the internet . All one has to do is do Google Search.
 

renuka

Well-known member
If one does Google search for "Gotra Y chromosomes" you will hit many links
If one is looking to refute the theory one of immediate link is follows


The above is copy and pasted in Post 1 (Post 1 did not provide this link, hence I am providing it here)

Now the fact that the author of that blog has a PhD in Biochemistry is not relevant here because his reasons in his blog copied and pasted are those of a layman.

The original article has science that this blog does not refute point by point using science. I dont have to be a scientist to know if the refutation is solid. It is not.

So it is another low value added blog in the internet space that has less credibility.

I am personally neither sold nor or against 'Y chromosome & Gotra theory' but there are lots of unconvincing blogs in the internet . All one has to do is do Google Search.
Copy and pasted by a lay man and also a judgement passed by a lay man.

Let me add my not so lay man opinion here.

The article is about genetics and as usual in any society its the Y chromosome which is talked about in a male and not taking into account maternal mitochondrial DNA may be at one particular time studies of mitochondrial DNA was not that advanced.

If Gotra system is Y linked..then let me add this.

The Y chromosome antibodies is capable of crossing the placental barrier and circulate in the maternal blood stream but the X chromosome antibodies does not cross
A woman pregnant with a male child has Y chromosome antibodies circulating in her blood and upon delivery the remenants are stored in her brain.

So a woman who has had a son has Y chromosome antibodies in her brain and in subsequent pregnancies..these Y antibodies come out again from her brain and circulate into the new baby..be it if its a boy or girl..so the sibling has a little exposure to its elder male siblings antibody.

Btw maternal fetal exchange of antibodies and cells happen all the while..for eg if a mother has any illness the fetus sends stem cells to help her heal.

Ok..now in cases of a woman who has had a male child from a previous marriage and gets pregnant carrying a male child from her new husband...her brain will have the 1st husbands Y chromosome antibody and also the 2nd husbands Y antibody..
The male child she is carrying from 2nd husband would also be exposed to the Y antibody of the 1st husband.

Going by these facts..may be extra emphasis is given to virginity and no remarriage cos society is Patriachal and wanted genetic " purity" of only one Y antibody in a woman.

But right now science has established Y antibody being able to circulate during a pregnancy.

But not much info about is Y antibody able to be stored in a woman during sexual intercourse?
No idea.

Anyway..everyone assumes unbroken Gotra based fully on trust and not evidence becos only maternity is a certainity..cos no one knows who visited whose cave in the past.

Copy and pasted from my brain.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Copy and pasted by a lay man and also a judgement passed by a lay man.



Copy and pasted from my brain.
No, the "Judgment" is from an expert in every subject, and the only authority who can determine all other's expertise too, plus an expert on disparaging others, and comments.

My daughter was explaining about snowfall in the USA to an 8-year-old child in Chennai, who has never seen this kind of snow. Finally, he brought his mothers "Ponds snow" and tried to equate the two.

Any similarity to the thread is purely coincidental.
 
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a-TB

Well-known member
It is important to propagate information that is credible and authentic even while copying and pasting. The original article about Gotra and Y chromosome was written for laymen and had some scientific arguments. The so called rebuttal chosen to start the thread in post 1 lacks scientific arguments at the same level as the original article. Hence it is not an authentic rebuttal.

Attacking misleading posts is not same as attacking a person. It is important to know this difference. If ego is vested too much in a post it will be hard to remain objective
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Copy and pasted by a lay man and also a judgement passed by a lay man.

Let me add my not so lay man opinion here.

The article is about genetics and as usual in any society its the Y chromosome which is talked about in a male and not taking into account maternal mitochondrial DNA may be at one particular time studies of mitochondrial DNA was not that advanced.

If Gotra system is Y linked..then let me add this.

The Y chromosome antibodies is capable of crossing the placental barrier and circulate in the maternal blood stream but the X chromosome antibodies does not cross
A woman pregnant with a male child has Y chromosome antibodies circulating in her blood and upon delivery the remenants are stored in her brain.

So a woman who has had a son has Y chromosome antibodies in her brain and in subsequent pregnancies..these Y antibodies come out again from her brain and circulate into the new baby..be it if its a boy or girl..so the sibling has a little exposure to its elder male siblings antibody.

Btw maternal fetal exchange of antibodies and cells happen all the while..for eg if a mother has any illness the fetus sends stem cells to help her heal.

Ok..now in cases of a woman who has had a male child from a previous marriage and gets pregnant carrying a male child from her new husband...her brain will have the 1st husbands Y chromosome antibody and also the 2nd husbands Y antibody..
The male child she is carrying from 2nd husband would also be exposed to the Y antibody of the 1st husband.

Going by these facts..may be extra emphasis is given to virginity and no remarriage cos society is Patriachal and wanted genetic " purity" of only one Y antibody in a woman.

But right now science has established Y antibody being able to circulate during a pregnancy.

But not much info about is Y antibody able to be stored in a woman during sexual intercourse?
No idea.

Anyway..everyone assumes unbroken Gotra based fully on trust and not evidence becos only maternity is a certainity..cos no one knows who visited whose cave in the past.

Copy and pasted from my brain.
Again, your 'expert' dump from your brain has not addressed the claim of the title of this thread.
While post 1 has no real scientific reasons at the same level as the original article, I liked reading your post.

But this idea of antibody stored in the brain etc is not connected to the title's claim.
In Googling as a layman what I found is that this antibody aspect in mother's brain is used to explain about birth of gay children. I can be corrected but that is all I gathered.

Also the Gotra system and connection to Y Chromosome has nothing to do with women marrying multiple times. It might apply in cultures where triple Talaq is easy and remarrying would require a woman to have married some one else and divorced etc. I do not see how it applies to Gotra culture since divorce is not mainstream event up until recently.



The original claim of connection of Y chromosomes and Gotra has not been refuted yet.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Whole Gotra system has never been proved.
It is like connecting Flat Earth theory with Solar system. One is fact other is fiction.

We discussed the Gothra system in this forum many times. I had posted Sangomsji's comment.
There is absolutely no proof that Gotra and Lineage are connected.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
There is a Gotra system in practice today and perhaps over many centuries. That is not disputed. The word proof does not apply here

There was an explanation using Y-chromosomes to explain this practice. If there is anyone to refute that explanation that will be interesting to know.

All the other claims, extraneous information and personal beliefs do not add value or content to topic as described in the title
 

renuka

Well-known member
Again, your 'expert' dump from your brain has not addressed the claim of the title of this thread.
While post 1 has no real scientific reasons at the same level as the original article, I liked reading your post.

But this idea of antibody stored in the brain etc is not connected to the title's claim.
In Googling as a layman what I found is that this antibody aspect in mother's brain is used to explain about birth of gay children. I can be corrected but that is all I gathered.

Also the Gotra system and connection to Y Chromosome has nothing to do with women marrying multiple times. It might apply in cultures where triple Talaq is easy and remarrying would require a woman to have married some one else and divorced etc. I do not see how it applies to Gotra culture since divorce is not mainstream event up until recently.



The original claim of connection of Y chromosomes and Gotra has not been refuted yet.
O learned one...you are only entitled to Google and not certain journals that are not found online.

I cant upload the info here cos its password protected for Continuing Proffessional Development.


Now coming back to your lay man mentality ..have you realized you know practically nothing about anything but act like an expert only to trail some members.
At times an inferiority complex shows up as arrogance.

Its sad to see how much you suffer.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
There is a Gotra system in practice today and perhaps over many centuries. That is not disputed. The word proof does not apply here

There was an explanation using Y-chromosomes to explain this practice. If there is anyone to refute that explanation that will be interesting to know.

All the other claims, extraneous information and personal beliefs do not add value or content to topic as described in the title
When it comes to some assertions they are mahavakyas, but everything else is just an opinion.

There is no room for superstition. Just because a practice has been portrayed as continuing for a long time it does not become a fact.

In the ancient Gurukul system the students were treated as Children of the Guru, and they stayed with the guru. So they may have formed a comradery and kinship without Caste distinction.

If Gotra really meant a patrilinear lineage from a Rishi, how can a Brahmin from Tamil Nadu, a Rajput from Rajasthan, and a Vaisya from Gujarat have Bharadwaj Gotram?
Either the cast system was broken or Gotra simply means the original guru of the clan.
 
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prasad1

Well-known member
We were in Pushkar.
Because of our connection, we were entertained by the chief priest of Brahma Temple.
He explained various stories of how the temple was created and other interesting titbits of information.
He said Only Sanyasi can perform the puja to the deity. The priests of the temple, in general in Pushkar, belong to the Parashar Gotra.

That is not one of the original 8 gotras. So how do you produce y-chromosome lineage?
If lineage has to be established it can only be 8 Gotras.
Gotras were the name of the Gurukul of that Rishi, and somewhere it got misinterpreted.
Everybody going to BHU can be alumni of BHU but are not the descendants of Madon Mohan Malaviya.

But the end of the day it is an opinion of a layperson (
a person who is not a member of the clergy; one of the laity).
 
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a-TB

Well-known member
O learned one...you are only entitled to Google and not certain journals that are not found online.

I cant upload the info here cos its password protected for Continuing Proffessional Development.


Now coming back to your lay man mentality ..have you realized you know practically nothing about anything but act like an expert only to trail some members.
At times an inferiority complex shows up as arrogance.

Its sad to see how much you suffer.
If calling me names or tell me I know nothing pleases you , by all means go for it.

In an argument or debate (not sure you know the difference) if someone starts resorting to name calling or do psychoanalyze others or hide behind some password protected journals (LOL) it is a clear sign that they have nothing positive to add to the topic.

In this instance you boasted your knowledge and said something unrelated to the topic of the thread heading.

I said a while ago why many here do not take what you write seriously. If you wanted to up your credibility of your posts you may want to practice sticking to the topic. Sometimes not saying anything is golden rather than say something unrelated or quote a verse from Koran,

I truly wish the best for you , honest !
 

a-TB

Well-known member
When it comes to some assertions they are mahavakyas, but everything else is just an opinion.

There is no room for superstition. Just because a practice has been portrayed as continuing for a long time it does not become a fact.

In the ancient Gurukul system the students were treated as Children of the Guru, and they stayed with the guru. So they may have formed a comradery and kinship without Caste distinction.

If Gotra really meant a patrilinear lineage from a Rishi, how can a Brahmin from Tamil Nadu, a Rajput from Rajasthan, and a Vaisya from Gujarat have Bharadwaj Gotram?
Either the cast system was broken or Gotra simply means the original guru of the clan.
There have been many threads on Gotras in the past. There is no value to rehash those once in a while.
There is a practice of children taking the last names and within some community there is this idea of taking the Gotras.

Someone tried to offer an explanation using Y Chromosomes. I was interested if there is refutation of that explanation by pointing out what is wrong with that scientific analysis. I have not seen that so far. Anyway I have nothing much to add to the old topic of Gotras
 

renuka

Well-known member
If calling me names or tell me I know nothing pleases you , by all means go for it.

In an argument or debate (not sure you know the difference) if someone starts resorting to name calling or do psychoanalyze others or hide behind some password protected journals (LOL) it is a clear sign that they have nothing positive to add to the topic.

In this instance you boasted your knowledge and said something unrelated to the topic of the thread heading.

I said a while ago why many here do not take what you write seriously. If you wanted to up your credibility of your posts you may want to practice sticking to the topic. Sometimes not saying anything is golden rather than say something unrelated or quote a verse from Koran,

I truly wish the best for you , honest !
If i give my opinion you say i am boasting my knowledge.

All of a sudden its knowledge i am boasting about but in your earlier post you said its " dump"LOL

Then you get all Qura'n phobic.

But if anyone else pastes a posts you call them lay man...no credibility etc.

You can see for yourself how much you run helter skelter when you got no where to hide like a target running for their lives in a surgical attack yet proclaiming no ammunition hit the target.

Yes..i wish you well to.

Btw thats not name calling.
Thats me being honest.

If it was name calling..it wont be so polite.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear a Tb..try not to be like your neighboring country.
If hit admit you have been hit.

I dont hide behind any password protecred videos.
The videos and journals are in MIMS CPD online but to access to it one needs to be a medical proffessional.

The article you read online is by AF Bogart
But the article i read is by a different author on maternal fetal exchange of cells.

Anyway..it doesnt matter now cos you would not have anything good to say or may be you dont have the capacity to agree with anyone who isnt on your Jaesh.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Renukaji,
You can educate a person who admits that he does not know. You can inform a person if they are receptive and humble. But you can not educate a person who thinks he knows all and has an Ego to boot, but is totally hollow.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Renukaji,
You can educate a person who admits that he does not know. You can inform a person if they are receptive and humble. But you can not educate a person who thinks he knows all and has an Ego to boot, but is totally hollow.
Yes..you are right.
I keep forgeting that.
 

zebra16

Well-known member
Another thread which caused disharmony rather than enlightenment !!

Post # 1 is an extract of a blog post. Now for most part, blog posts are mostly stuffs that do not get published in reputed journals or peer reviewed magazines or in newspapers because they lack the vigour and rigor of scientific analysis. No matter what the educational qualifications of the blogger is, the articles lacks in-depth analysis. Mostly these blog posts cater to the appetite of people driving that particular agenda .

We have one of our members who gives fanciful explanation of modern scientific inventions and discoveries of boson particle, quasars etc through the prism of vedas and puranas. I have not come across many in our TB forum agreeing with his flights of fantasy and he too has his blogpost. Doubt if many visit his blogpost for periodical updation.

It is common for the blog posters to dazzle their visitors by making mention of their education and achievement in other fields, as if merit and achievement in one field ipso facto tantamount to expertise in all the fields. Thus we have vedas dissected by Theoretical Physicists and human genome bared open by vedics who boast of having mastered the knowledge from Charaka and Sushruta.

For my immediate query in medical field in the absence of knowledge to whom approach, I will seek the opinion of our own resident Medical expert, Dr. Renuka, for I am sure she will guide me to how to approach and wont fib and give a wishy-washy answer rather than seeking knowledge from dubious net resources.

I do not know exactly how much of DNA and Y-chromosomes is learnt while studying molecular biology and biochemistry. My estimate would be not much. Even if the author of the blog post is passionate about the subject and has done a lot of work in that area, for us to know we have to read at least one of the three reference books she has cited in the article which Sri a-TB has given link in post #3.

The references cited by the poster are to page 813-16 of one book, 494-499 of the second and 488-493 of the third. My layman intuition is that the poster has used selective reading to further the cause of the agenda they want to promote. I seriously doubt anyone has cared even to look a single reference, so why we are arguing ourselves out?

Now lets see why the blog post is sheer agenda driven:

The link where the original post is available is given in post #3. Apart from giving rubbish meaning of Sanskrit words, like trAhi = shed, it gives sanctimonious advice to politicians like “I hope they focus on governance and follow(ing) the Constitution of India. Have you seen a serious science oriented person make such a tom-foolery of politics in his research papers?

Irony died a thousand deaths when the new genome acharya after trashing the gotra system, wants us to subscribe to her genome-patri, (quite rhyming with janma-patri) as the new maestro of gotra syndicate and relishes the title of AchArya !!!!

Generally such blog posts do not present themselves in google search in matters of general interest. So my curiosity is why we make such specific topic search and help publicize sub-standard stuff.
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
My views here..
 

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