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Enge Brahmanan Economically and Socially?

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suresoo

Active member
Dear Friends,

Yes there was a 'Jaya TV' Serial which looked at the religious angle to Brahmin Life.

Here i kindly invite members to share their thoughts on

1) 'Challenges faced by tambrams Economically and Socially' from Birth to 'Old Age Home'

2) what tambrams in India think of their future as a community?

Lets us express our views with examples from last 20-30 years or future steps with the next 20-30 years in mind.
Let us not get into a debate mode or question the validity of other members opinions.

thanks,
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear sures,

another clear baby for closing soon by praveen. :) love you for your sense of humour :)

seriously speaking, i have been talking about this in so many threads, and each one of them have been closed because of some folks cannot stand these type of talk.

sures, you must realize, that nobody here is anti brahmin or putting tambrams down. some of us are looking at reality as we see it. call a spade a spade and how we can resolve our issues.

but you have to accept that there are issues. and solutions may come from new paradigms, as the old ones have failed, and thus the cause of some of the misfortunes.

personally, i will be surprised if this thread progresses modestly and soberly, which it would, if we all adhere to some of the lessons learned from the previous banned 4 threads.

also take heed to praveen's last note in the missionary thread - we need to keep an open mind, understand what people are saying, and address those answers. if there is doubt, seek clarification, and do not assume your fears and phantoms. those play wildest imaginations, and before long, this ends in name calling from nandus to dogs.. we cannot just behave like that and expect respect.

there is a protocol to every civility and let us follow one that respects every person's right to expression, and ensure that proper decorum is adhered.

i wish this thread the best of a journey
 
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suresoo

Active member
Kunjuppu sir,

another clear baby for closing soon by praveen. :) love you for your sense of humour :)
:) :)
'Moderator Praveen' can apply for 'Censor Board' Job quoting the experience from here and we can all give references for the same!!

In this thread, I'm hoping more members express their viewpoint and move-on.
As said in parent post, I will not question a (any) viewpoint.

Lets see where it goes.

thanks,
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Friends,

Yes there was a 'Jaya TV' Serial which looked at the religious angle to Brahmin Life.

Here i kindly invite members to share their thoughts on

1) 'Challenges faced by tambrams Economically and Socially' from Birth to 'Old Age Home'

2) what tambrams in India think of their future as a community?

Lets us express our views with examples from last 20-30 years or future steps with the next 20-30 years in mind.
Let us not get into a debate mode or question the validity of other members opinions.

thanks,

Dear Suresh,

I am giving below my views in the most polite language I am able to command. If any portion of this hurts anyone I am willing to abide by whatever the moderator/s decide. But as suggested by you, I would request that they do not get into a debate mode or question me to prove my opinions. I will not respond to such posts because i do not want to enter into arguments.


The reservations do pose, at present, certain amount of difficulties for engg./medical education of tambram students who may not have necessary financial background. The nationalized banks have a loan scheme and, I understand, as of now, loans upto Rs.4 lakhs or so are interest-free and have to be given without any security. (GOI provides interest subsidy.) But when I discussed with the bank manager a few days back, he said the repayment of educational loans in Tamil Nadu was very bad; Kerala has a somewhat better record, he said. I enquired why it is so. He simply laughed it off and evaded a clear answer, knowing well that I was a bank inspector, before retirement. My gut feeling is that there is less political pressure for giving educational loans here in Kerala and banks can choose, to some extent their borrowers. I was told by the same manager that GOI is bringing a new system of demat degrees and electronic tagging of the certificates which will show bank loans taken for education overwritten on the degree cert, just as HP is recorded in the RC books for vehicles. The employer is to contact the bank/branch and recover the educational loan right from the first salary. But as usual, a legislation, making such deduction legal and not challengeable in a court of law has not been envisaged, at least so far. Hence, what will happen to these loans in future, is unclear. The experience of a small trust here, in giving interest-free educational loans to tambrams exclusively, was dismal; there was hardly any repayment. But with necessary safeguards, banks may be lenient to grant the loans.

Traditionally, tambrams have had the record of getting an academic qualification and entering service in government or private sectors and treat it as their career. Self-employment has not been their strength. The record of tambram entrepreneurs in regard to business, self-employment, etc., has been a mixed one; some have prospered very well, some others just pull on, others are failures. Perhaps this will be the picture when a community starts entering into unchartered waters, so to say. But what I find is that among tambrams, there is no community cohesion and feeling of belonging among the members. Their allegiance stops, in most cases with praising our scriptures and feeling a sense of greatness about our having inherited the sole custody of these. Among the traditionally trading communities like Marwaris, Gujaratis, etc., the tendency to help out their people who have fallen in bad times, to set up a new business/trade/vocation, is more evident. They are also more prompt in repaying loans and generally in keeping their word. Since we do not have a history of this sort, it is to be fervently hoped that the tambrams will also be as honest as the other communities referred to above, if a large number of tambrams take up self-employment, trading, etc.

Right now the IT sector continues to be the main hope for tambrams. But it will be unrealistic to expect that this will continue as a sunrise sector for long; it has already past mid-noon, IMO. Despite all that is boasted about India, the high intelligence of Indians, etc., there is hardly any indian patented software or hardware. We are just thinking of starting a project for our designing our own Operating System for computers, that too after other countries found out that it is a major weakness for even national security; China has introduced one of its own recently. Therefore, we should think hard and find out what makes Indians, and more so tambrams, the best factotums but not the masters in anything, despite a widespread notion to the contrary. Tambrams in India at least have not shown any streak of brilliance and originality in the computer science - either software or hardware, to the best of my knowledge.

I think the economic situation for tambrams will not be as bright as it was, say, for the past 15 or 20 years in the future. More and more tambrams are likely to end up as diaspora in whichever country they can get into, and find their means of livelihood there. The animosity of the local populations of those host countries will also become more and more apparent, as time goes unless the employment situation improves. If, therefore, the tambrams who are born and brought up in those foreign countries completely change over to the local culture and shed their tambram identity entirely, we need not find fault with them. Those tambrams who live in TN or other parts of India are likely to be in various stages of metamorphosis from the more orthodox tambram types to those who have least identification with the orthodoxy, and will merely be classified as tambram in the caste-based census. The financial position of the average tambram will generally be on a downward curve, I feel, despite the fact that there has been a sudden increase in prosperity in the community during the last few years.

Old age for tambrams in India will be one of great trials and tribulations, just as it is in all other sections of population in India, unless the people themselves have saved for their old age during their active years. This may not be possible for all to commence doing right from now on, given our tradition of looking after the children's entire educational expenses and supporting them fully till they get into an earning position, unlike the west where, I understand, this is not the case. The tendency on the part of the younger generation now seems to be to go after their comforts and ensuring their future mainly.

It has also been heard, in some rare cases, where the parents have spent everything on their children, and look to them for solace in their (the parents') old age, the son or daughter even go to the extent of expressing a view that they never wanted to be born in such (wretched) families and it was all because of the mistake of the parents themselves; hence, in those children's view, the parents cannot expect, leave alone insist, that they should be looked after in their old age by the children. The orientation of the younger generation of tambram girls is also to consider their family as exclusive of their in-laws, but including their own parents. In times of such drastic changes in outlook, some people in the next one or two generations of old tambrams at least are likely to face great hardship in their old age. They may have to look towards senior citizens' homes which they can afford or end up in some orphanage. But the consoling factor is that this type of change in mentality is seen in other communities also, not confined only to tambrams.

To sum up, after 20 or 30 years we will have very few people who will profess orthodoxy though many of the paraphernalia of the religion like hari kathas, bhajans, satsangs, and other religious rites will still be there. Whether the audience for such items will thin out or not, we cannot judge now. Most tambrams are likely to be be less prejudiced and more receptive to progressive ideas. But a hard core consisting of fewer people than now, professing whatever they consider as orthodoxy and resisting any change in the name of brahminism and its great heritage, will, in all probability, continue to exist then also. But
majority of the tambrams in India will have become indistinguishable from the other multitudes of the country both in terms of their modern, progressive outlook and customs.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Dear Sures,

Here is my view on the queries that you have raised. Ofcourse, this is one member’s opinion, slanted by some indelible experiences of 60 years

- an impoverished early childhood, which improved with time due to dad’s doing well in his entrepreneurship.
- An observation of the great difficulties & indignities experienced in marrying off 3 girl cousins during my early teens

Though I have been away from India for 37+ years, almost all of my current views were formed and solidified in India.

My views are from a distance, but I get to visit India very regularly, albeit only to Chennai.

I consider that the defining moment when our community informally but as a group, starting about 50 or so years ago, made the decision to have small families ie not more than 2 kids. This apparently will continue from now on, with many having only one child.

On one hand, this gives a lot of money to be spent on a single child. Even the poorest of us, now only have to feed, educate and nurture only one or two. Which is a big difference from half a dozen or more for my parents.

I think among the non commercial communities of India, we have among the highest average income, along with certain groups of kerala Christians as Syrians or mar thoma.

I can see that with the solidifying of this middle class only continue, as the children of these small families will inherit a lot of wealth which was not the case with their parents.

We are seeing it in the west, which had a generation or two lead in the small family thing. I feel that it takes the ‘hunger’ out of some of these youngsters, as they can now bank of a handsome inheritance at some point in their lives.

Look around you, and see how many tambrams have flats worth 30 or 40 lakhs and all of this going to one or two children. Plus their saved wealth.

I can see our community behaving more like the Punjabis of Delhi ie ostentatious display of wealth, which was anathema for previous generations.

Simply because there are increasingly less of us, there are more jobs to be distributed around.

The father of a middle class boy can afford to send his child to u.k. or usa or Australia or Singapore for education. Many of these do not return, thus further freeing up Indian jobs and hence competition.

Take into account, other communities are also in the same race ie smaller families, more education and outward emigration.

The whole sum game of emigration to the west has changed. In today’s internet bound world, there are no sites or sounds that cannot be seen or heard from any corner of the world. The internet appears the same in Toronto or Thudiyallur.

Youths at both these places can spot job openings in Dubai or Singapore. So it is not only from India that there is competition for jobs in other countries.

We are seeing a whole generation of tambram heritage young men and women in the west. These are acclimatized Americans, Canadians or Australians. They are thoroughly comfortable with their environment, and no longer the caricatured ABCDs.. the parents of today are much wiser than their earlier counterparts.

To the surprise of many in India, native born Indian-Americans have almost the same opportunities as the whites in the USA. They do not consider themselves wanting in anything and opt to reach the maximum potential in whatever field they chose.

To imagine, that these will troop back to India in the face of unemployment or increased racism is simply not right. Most western countries are today an amalgam of races or increasingly so, particularly USA, Canada and Australia.

The societies here, I find, are quite flexible and is not uncommon for an average urban white family to have a non white married relative. And likely to increase so, as colleagues and college students tend to stick to their own groups by virtue of socio economics than ethnicity.

The schools you attend are dictated by your parents economic status, and Indians do well enough to pay the bills of their children’s top notch education. The only other community that does this is the Chinese.

So, these children of tambrams meet the ‘best of the breed’ of the whites – this I say with sarcasm, because the west too is getting calcified by money and upward mobility may be denied to those who do not grasp the importance of professional education.

Retirement? With the decline of joint family, the built in safety net for old age has disappeared. For those living in India who still are able to live with their sons or daughters, they are the lucky ones.

The increasing numbers appear to be those who have to fend for themselves. They have to find alternate ways. I can see only an increase in old age homes, and this is a good opportunity for our youngsters to start this business. This is bound to be a growing industry.

Future of our community? We are going to be spread out even more so. At this point I cannot ever foresee a return to the homeland in droves of folks who grew up outside of India.

Even those who return, do so, with a US or Australian passport, meaning that the option is there for their children to just climb aboard a plane and continue where their parents left off.

Infact in the face of acute competition for name brand Indian educational institutions and the process of reservations, it is likely that the children of returnees will go back to the land of their passports.

The ritualistic aspect of our society has been on the decline gradually. You can see that there are many who are upset over this, but this is a reality, and such as those of us who point it out, are termed ‘anti brahmins’.

This, you yourself has accused us of. But when someone like Sangom writes along similar lines, I hope, people see the light of these arguments – these are not meant to accuse or find fault.

To me these are wake up calls for those left behind economically, to girdle their loins and follow the lead of those tambrams who heeded to the call of the future, and discarded their baggages, and sought their fortunes in greener pastures, whatever they had considered it so.

Which is what my parents and of their generation did. Atleast many of them, and which is why we are where we are now. The journey will continue.

Thank You.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
D..........Most tambrams are likely to be be less prejudiced and more receptive to progressive ideas. ... But ..majority of the tambrams in India will have become indistinguishable from the other multitudes of the country both in terms of their modern, progressive outlook and customs.

Dear Sangom, the last sentence brought a lump in my throat, for its poignancy. how true, and at heart i am a sentimentalist, even though i might not sound that most of the time.

Though for 3 generations we are agraharam free, i have had relatives in agraharams in kalpathi, chathapuram and also in tali kozhikode. whenever i visited those places, i used to feel a sense of 'coming home' and always felt that i had missed out on some aspects of my upbringing compared to those boys of my age who grew up there.

The India of the 70s and 80s were very cruel to its youth, particular those coming out of colleges. most of us went abroad, because we had no other go. today you find my generation touching the 60s, comfortably esconced all over the west, and looking at india with pride and a lot of longing.

Many of us would not have perhaps would not have left if such opportunities of today existed then. but we made those decisons long ago, and most of my generation will have to lie on that bed made long ago - if not for anything else, atleast for the sake of needing to be near our children, who are Americans, Canadians or Australians.

If these are youngsters are anything like mine, they are proud casteless Hindus, not overtly religious, but proud enough of their heritage, as not to sell it short. this, the members who live in india, need to understand and appreciate. good hindus are not the monopoly of india.

I am also amazed at the calibre of today's youngsters coming for employment to the west - short term or permanent. these are confident of their education and knowledge, and not at all awed by the 'wonders' of the west. they have seen it all through the web. surprisingly many of them are doctrinaire conservative for my taste, but i presume all this would change once their children grow up. especially if they chose to live here. this has happened in my generation too.

Singapore has an out of proportion presence of tambrams. sad to say, they have these overtly ritualistic ‘Brahmana Sanghams’ which breeds the worst aspects of brahminism ie segregation and isolation from the mainstream Tamil Hindus,

These whisky swilling Brahmins do not think much of integration either with other Singapore tamils or even with other Indians I am watching with interest as to how these’s children will marry..as I have a few nephew and nieces coming ready for that blessed event in a very short span of time.

I met a Malaysian Brahmin a few years ago. His family has been in Malay peninsula since the 1920s, one of the original Palghat emigrants who provided clerkship skills to the English plantation owners.

He was of a bleak view for the next generation of Brahmins in Malaysia. His sons had married local Chinese girls and his daughter, like the daughter of many of his friends, has been brought up to look only for Tamil Brahmin spouses.. except there were none there..

I suggested Tamil Nadu, and he told me that the cultural gap and expectations of tambrams of India were so different, that even he felt that his daughter would have a tough time adjusting to any such arrangements.

To star gaze into the future, while on one hand is fun, I cannot but help a feeling of sadness at the passing away of familiarity. This, coming from one who has claimed to embrace changes as they happen, must come as a surprise.

Sometimes, certain posts trigger unanticipated reactions, and I thought I will pen this to you, more as a tribute to your penmanship, than with any serious view to debate on this note.

Thank You.
 

amala

Well-known member
Singapore has an out of proportion presence of tambrams. sad to say, they have these overtly ritualistic ‘Brahmana Sanghams’ which breeds the worst aspects of brahminism ie segregation and isolation from the mainstream Tamil Hindus,

These whisky swilling Brahmins do not think much of integration either with other Singapore tamils or even with other Indians I am watching with interest as to how these’s children will marry..as I have a few nephew and nieces coming ready for that blessed event in a very short span of time.

I met a Malaysian Brahmin a few years ago. His family has been in Malay peninsula since the 1920s, one of the original Palghat emigrants who provided clerkship skills to the English plantation owners.

He was of a bleak view for the next generation of Brahmins in Malaysia. His sons had married local Chinese girls and his daughter, like the daughter of many of his friends, has been brought up to look only for Tamil Brahmin spouses.. except there were none there..

I suggested Tamil Nadu, and he told me that the cultural gap and expectations of tambrams of India were so different, that even he felt that his daughter would have a tough time adjusting to any such arrangements.

Mama I take issue with your description of our Brahmana Samajams/Sabhas. We grew up in these places. Learnt a lot of things about our culture, which otherwise we wouldn't have known. Made friends with people who were "similar". I have such happy memories of my samajam days. Going to school and making friends with other ethnic children and having Tamil friends, I always knew I was different. Mostly because of the food. My cousins felt the same. And then attending samajam and meeting kids like me, the bonding was instant. The samajam was a very special part of my childhood and adolescence. It had a certain je ne sais quoi which I can't put my finger on. Plus it was a great comfort to our grandparents generations there.

About your Malaysian Brahmin friend -- thats brought a lump to my throat. My position, as is my sister's and some of my tambram friends in KL is not at all unlike that of his daughter. Perhaps we want it all. The best of both worlds, and sooner or later we have to choose, like our western counterparts and shed one thing for the other :(
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Mama I take issue with your description of our Brahmana Samajams/Sabhas. We grew up in these places. Learnt a lot of things about our culture, which otherwise we wouldn't have known. Made friends with people who were "similar". I have such happy memories of my samajam days. Going to school and making friends with other ethnic children and having Tamil friends, I always knew I was different. Mostly because of the food. My cousins felt the same. And then attending samajam and meeting kids like me, the bonding was instant. The samajam was a very special part of my childhood and adolescence. It had a certain je ne sais quoi which I can't put my finger on. Plus it was a great comfort to our grandparents generations there.

About your Malaysian Brahmin friend -- thats brought a lump to my throat. My position, as is my sister's and some of my tambram friends in KL is not at all unlike that of his daughter. Perhaps we want it all. The best of both worlds, and sooner or later we have to choose, like our western counterparts and shed one thing for the other :(

Dear Amala,

I do have the knack of hitting on the sensitive chords here there and everywhere, don’t I ?

I was going to send a private message to another poster here from Singapore for a feeadback, but I have been lucky to get a response from crème de la crème. What more can I expect for such an unassuming post?

To start off, I am with you re the single home grown tambram girls of Malaysia and Singapore. For them, the natural spouses, in certainspeak, would be the hordes of tambram guys seeking their fortune in S’pore and to a lesser extent in M’sia.

Unfortunately, these are the very choplangis that I have been railing against – as far as I am concerned, and I have no problem defending this, these guys’ profile are that they are still tied to their mother’s ethappu (mundhaaNai to our eastern brethrens).

I should confess, that I am able to relate your cohort’s predicament and do have more than a heart tug at the same. However, it comes to the same end – to get out of the rut and create for yourself a world or perish in isolation.

I do not ever discount the cultural and fraternity values imparted by such organizations. You might notice that I have not commented on that aspect at all.

What I have problems with such organizations (and there is one in Toronto too) is their sense of exclusiveness. They do not make any effort to be inclusive of other Tamils ( they have their own amalgam and welcome NBs, Christians, non Indian Tamils and tambrams who care to join (few in number I should say).

It should not be so. These guys are smart, high achieving professionally, but so narrow of mind when it comes to socializing and so ritualistically ignorantly dogmatic.

For example, all of them go to Tamil Nadu for poonal for their boys and make it a big spending affair, only to have the boy hang it on the nail hours after the poonal. This, I am afraid is a consistent behaviour which both the father and the son are aware, and is not enforced or paid heed to if at all reminded.

To me, atleast, this is the start of a malaise of a way of life and ideas.

Amala, I don’t know how much of the caste baggage that we want to carry on to the next generation. I have been questioning this almost since puberty, and over the years, I have come to the conclusion that exclusivity of any sorts eventually only weakens our own structure – for we live in fear of others – polluting our blood streams and such irrational beliefs.

It is best that we free ourselves of certain of our poisons. To me, a good solution for tambram girls, is to find mates, whether of M/S or elsewhere, and introduce them to our way of life. Our way of culture, can be imbibed and familiarized – same as I imbibed and acculturized myself to Canada. Otherwise I would be breeding another generation of ABCDs.

Amala, life always demands tough calls. It is not as if in embracing one, you should give up something else. Not necessarily. If you have an open mind to include someone into your life, and if you both love each other, there will be an exchange of cultures and practices to both’s benefit.

What is stopping these girls from marrying Pillais or Chettiars? After all, we all go to the same temple, speak the same languages and see the same movies. Agreed that food may be a problem. I have lost count of boys who have given up meat eating and alcohol for the love of their lives.

All this needs a strong mind and a firm conviction – a knowledge of who they are and what they represent. I think, these Brahmana Sanghams fail abysmally in this – all they do is to meet on occasions, perform pseudo religious ceremonies to reinforce the separateness of tambrams from other tamils and above all encourage our isolation.

The leadership loves to moan the absence of appreciation of our culture among the young, but would never accept the fact, that this is due to the very same leadership, who are moribund in their ideas, look to discrepit mutts in tamil nadu for guidance, and above all so ossified in their attitude towards the traditions, that compared to the average tambram of tamil nadu, they are frozen about 50 years in time frame.

Amala, I am not sure, if I addressed your concern. To sum up, I agree that these Brahmana Sanghams have given you a sense of (quasi) identity. Only that I feel that they have above all let you and children of diaspora like you, down, because they did not equip you with tools to deal with your future.

Hence the heartaches of those parents now. Similar to that of yours. But there is hope. As long as we are alive, and we have the right attitude, we have hope to make ourselves a life, to our tailoring. Courage young lady!

God Bless.
 

B.Krishnamurthy

Active member
Mr.kunjuppu Said,

It is best that we free ourselves of certain of our poisons. To me, a good solution for tambram girls, is to find mates, whether of M/S or elsewhere, and introduce them to our way of life. Our way of culture, can be imbibed and familiarized – same as I imbibed and acculturized myself to Canada. Otherwise I would be breeding another generation of ABCDs.

I reproduce below views echoed by a professional Doctor and response of another
member in 'iyer123.com for information of all members of this forum.My personalview is our TB community have to be dynamic to changes.

Re: [Iyer123] swagotra and chromosome
From:
Ramji Govindarajan <[email protected]>
Add to Contacts
To: [email protected]; Mahadevan Venkitasubbiar <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Dear Shri Santhosh Gopal

Thank you for your email - while i appreciate you have high academic accomplishments in the area of genetics, your suggestions on half baked scientific research and hypothesis are highly unwelcome.

I am sure you'd have also come across another piece of research (i lack the scientific acumen to quote the source etc.) that most of us in the world can perhaps trace our ancestors to a few thousand people several millenia back - clearly all of us are products of 'in breeding' from time immemorial. The western scientific community is know to disapprove of all Indian know-how - they first vehemently oppose the practices then later come around and accept that it is infact the right way to do. Our Indian sampradayam/practices/anushtanams/acharams are time tested, proved beneficial from time immemorial that has withstood the travails of time and will stand firm for times to come

Has the genetic research that you quote (and claim we have to wait for further studies) considered the effect of other factors like ramapant use of chemicals/pesticides in the food we eat etc?

your solution is equally frustruating - somehow the notion of allowing inter-caste marriage will improve chances of better offspring.

I live in London and was recently a part of genetic study (just in an administrative capacity) where the genetic engineers are considering the benefits of certain societies which do not inter marry (yest they exist here in UK, elsewhere in Europe as well) and preserve/nurture certain traits and preserve certain unique knowledge and practices which can be for the greater good of humanity - AS USUAL LIKE YOU SAID WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR FURTHER STUDIES!' - BUT TO ME IT SOUNDS THAT THIS IS WHAT A BRAHMIN COMMUNITY IS.

It is a specialised and highly successful bunch of a race that practices certain unique traditions/practices that which if scaled up will be for the greater good of the humanity. In order to preserve the group the great seers in the past had developed certain code of conduch including not marrying among sagotra etc such that the group doesn't face possibilities of extinction or other dangers to survivial (from reasons that us illiterates can't foresee now)

As regards taking brahmins outside of one's Varna - it could be your way of doing things - but it is not per our Sampradaya - the notion of a non brahmana becoming a brahmana just by wearing madisar/pancha kacchham/poonal/being vegetarian/speaking in certain accent is as wrong as your postulation that inter Varna marriage is the solution for genetic disease.

While i respect your academic achievements, i personally have a problem with the grand solutions you come up with based on the knowledge you gathered from a field that is still in the stages of evolution and the practitioners of which (like yourselves) have still to understand even the fundamentals of creation purely from a chemical perspective

very best regards

Ramji

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: Mahadevan Venkitasubbiar <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]ps.com
Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:20:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Iyer123] swagotra and chromosome


Sir

I am a Paediatrician (now in WHO) and practicing Developmental Pediatrics.As far as science goes it would be better if one married outside caste.I am not advocating this.The rationale is as follows.
More than 75 % of Genetic disease burden in India is in the four southern states due to rampant inter family marriage-consanguineous marriages.It has to be remembered that the tradition started and was much stronger centuries back.Rounds of marrying within the family has meant we all would be related if we trace back six or seven generations.Just a hypothesis.But it has been genetically proven that most South Indian castes are highly inbred.We have to wait for further studies.In the mean time we can at least accept non-brahmin brides and allow them to follow Brahmin traditions.Remember that caste is a sub culture which is learned behaviour.

Regards


DR SANTHOSH RAJAGOPAL
MADURAI
Hon. Developmental Pediatrician
AVN Centre for Developmental Neurology
 

RVR

Well-known member
Sri Suresoo,

My views are in the bottom
Dear Friends,

Yes there was a 'Jaya TV' Serial which looked at the religious angle to Brahmin Life.

Here i kindly invite members to share their thoughts on

1) 'Challenges faced by tambrams Economically and Socially' from Birth to 'Old Age Home'

2) what tambrams in India think of their future as a community?

Lets us express our views with examples from last 20-30 years or future steps with the next 20-30 years in mind.
Let us not get into a debate mode or question the validity of other members opinions.

thanks,

During the past two days I had the opportunity of meeting few brahmins at a function which Sri Cho is searching for in his serial.

They are all Brahmacharis in the age group of 20 to 25. They have gone through the Vedha Adhyanam for more than 12 years and perform only Vedha Paaraayanam and are not interested in any other ritual. They are not after money and accept whatever is offered to them. They are all totally devoted to the four vedhas and are not bothered about anything in life. Definitely I got an answer for your second point but the first point requires lot of deliberations.

After meeting them, I went through some of the articles about Vedhas and I am giving below a link from Paramacharyal's book

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

There are several articles in the subsequent chapters also which are worth reading.

Incidentally I found an incident involving Thomas Alwa Edison and Max Muller in the following article.

FIRST GRAMOPHONE RECORDING : Hillol Das blogs on sulekha, General blogs, Hillol Das blog from india

As a community, all brahmins irrespective of language they speak or the the different schools of thought they follow have to commit themselves to preserving Vedhas. It is not possible to each one of us to learn Vedhas but we can atleast support Vedic scholars and ensure that vedhas are preserved, nurtured and propagated. Fortunately several people of our community who assembled in the function including few American families, an Australian family and several young software professionals agreed to support such scholars without any hesitation. I earnestly feel that our community is in safe hands as the younger generation is much more committed to preserve Vedhas than people belonging to my generation.

Since I spent almost two full days, I was able to gather lot of information. But I am not comfortable to discuss every thing in a public forum like this.

All the best
 
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sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sangom, the last sentence brought a lump in my throat, for its poignancy. how true, and at heart i am a sentimentalist, even though i might not sound that most of the time.

...

Sometimes, certain posts trigger unanticipated reactions, and I thought I will pen this to you, more as a tribute to your penmanship, than with any serious view to debate on this note.

Thank You.
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

First of all my thanks for your tribute to my penmanship.

At some stage in our lives, I think we slowly stop our "forward only" gaze and some biological phenomenon triggers the "looking back" habit. Though any 'rational' looking back will have to reveal a mixture of the pleasant, not-so-pleasant and the undoubtedly unpleasant incidents from the past, nostalgia has a way of filtering out the second and third categories and projecting the pleasant memories afresh before our minds. It is then that we feel a sort of longing for the past, and also feel that something has been lost to us during our life's course. But we have to live with such good memories and also take the changes, as they come, in our stride. The age-old simile of a giant tree being felled by the raging flood waters, but a blade of grass remaining unharmed is the correct motto, I feel; submit to changes without resistance.
 

amala

Well-known member
I do have the knack of hitting on the sensitive chords here there and everywhere, don’t I ?

Yes you do actually. But I'm relieved. For the longest time my mum used to say that stepping on people's toes was my forte. Glad I'm not the only one
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To start off, I am with you re the single home grown tambram girls of Malaysia and Singapore. For them, the natural spouses, in certainspeak, would be the hordes of tambram guys seeking their fortune in S’pore and to a lesser extent in M’sia.

Unfortunately, these are the very choplangis that I have been railing against – as far as I am concerned, and I have no problem defending this, these guys’ profile are that they are still tied to their mother’s ethappu (mundhaaNai to our eastern brethrens).

I doubt very much that these hordes of tambrams are natural spouses for tambram girls in M/S. I think these guys are "different". I dont mean this in a good or bad way. Just different from the local tambrams. But i wouldnt go so far as to call them choplangis. I'm sure they have a quite a few choice words for us girls
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What I have problems with such organizations (and there is one in Toronto too) is their sense of exclusiveness. They do not make any effort to be inclusive of other Tamils ( they have their own amalgam and welcome NBs, Christians, non Indian Tamils and tambrams who care to join (few in number I should say).

It should not be so. These guys are smart, high achieving professionally, but so narrow of mind when it comes to socializing and so ritualistically ignorantly dogmatic.

For example, all of them go to Tamil Nadu for poonal for their boys and make it a big spending affair, only to have the boy hang it on the nail hours after the poonal. This, I am afraid is a consistent behaviour which both the father and the son are aware, and is not enforced or paid heed to if at all reminded.

To me, atleast, this is the start of a malaise of a way of life and ideas.


I don't understand this view at all. There are exclusive clubs everywhere in the world. As for narrow minded socialising, is there anything more narrow that to socialise based on socio economic yardstick. Why is the criterion worse when it is caste?

I guess these people who go all the way to TN for upanayanam are ostentatious, extravagant and grossly vulgar. More money than any sense.


Amala, life always demands tough calls. It is not as if in embracing one, you should give up something else. Not necessarily. If you have an open mind to include someone into your life, and if you both love each other, there will be an exchange of cultures and practices to both’s benefit.

What is stopping these girls from marrying Pillais or Chettiars? After all, we all go to the same temple, speak the same languages and see the same movies. Agreed that food may be a problem. I have lost count of boys who have given up meat eating and alcohol for the love of their lives.

Realistically speaking, somethings gotta give. You cannot have it all or both ways. However open a mind one has. For one thing these girls are probably not in love with Pillais or Chettiars to marry them. Food is a major major problem. As the women, we have to do the cooking, however we romanticise or idealise that todays chaps will help out, that is purely speculating. Marrying someone, whose food we can go close enough to cook it, helps a lot!.


All this needs a strong mind and a firm conviction – a knowledge of who they are and what they represent. I think, these Brahmana Sanghams fail abysmally in this – all they do is to meet on occasions, perform pseudo religious ceremonies to reinforce the separateness of tambrams from other tamils and above all encourage our isolation.

I disagree with this. They meet very relgularly. In fact if one has the time, energy, inclination and interest one can go there daily for puja. Theres always things to be done and helping hands are always more than welcome. You don't say temples perform pseudo religious ceremonies, so why Brahmana Samajams? I feel this is grossly unfair.


Amala, I am not sure, if I addressed your concern. To sum up, I agree that these Brahmana Sanghams have given you a sense of (quasi) identity. Only that I feel that they have above all let you and children of diaspora like you, down, because they did not equip you with tools to deal with your future.

I think its unnecessarily patronising calling it quasi indentity. At least we have some identity quasi or otherwise, which is more than can be said for compared to our brethrens in some other parts of the globe. Under the circumstances I think the samajams have done very well. Its fr me and the children of disapora to be the judge of whether we have been let down or not. Personally don't feel let down at all. Perhaps we don't have such high an expectation from our samajams. Exactly what tools do/did you expect a religious caste based organisation to equip us with, besides fraternity and some religious knowledge, stotrams?


Hence the heartaches of those parents now. Similar to that of yours. But there is hope. As long as we are alive, and we have the right attitude, we have hope to make ourselves a life, to our tailoring. Courage young lady!

God Bless.

I am not discouraged at all. On the contrary I was just feeling the same sense of sentimentality about us vanishing into assimilation, as you were about SangomJi's post. I think as a people we are great satire material
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However I feel marriage is very personal a choice. I still don't get why not wanting a smoker is considered a preference but wanting someone from the same caste is bigotry. I don't think I shall ever understand this.

I want to apologise if i have been rude or offensive in anyway. It is solely due to my handicap of language.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear amala,

thank you for your hard hitting reply. :) ofcourse there are no hard feelings. youre reply just proves the point that there are more than one facet to any story.

i look at the brahmana sanghams of M/S from the folks, particularly relatives who took me there. unfortunately i cannot relate to any of them - religious or value wise. overtly i did not appreciate their value, but felt a sense of seige amongst atleast the few that i met, and to me that was depressing.

thank you for bringing out the value in those organizations, which to me was not apparent. it is nice to be corrected, for what better way of bringing me down to earth and than a little knock on the head, that too so elegantly done.

yes, there is a definite value in the identity. again, i agree marriage is a very private affair, and what compromises couples make in a marriage, is something that cannot be generalized. again there, i was speaking from the viewpoints of my friends, about whom i think i have already written elsewhere.

i did have a unique solution for girls in your predicament. it worked. i will send you that through email :). it is definitely not for public consumption. but it follows my usual approach to life - find a solution, time boxed, to any problem.

best wishes.
 

sangom

Well-known member
...
I am not discouraged at all. On the contrary I was just feeling the same sense of sentimentality about us vanishing into assimilation, as you were about SangomJi's post. I think as a people we are great satire material
icon7.gif

Sow. Amala,

I don't know whether I have addressed you properly. If I am wrong pl. correct me.

The above portion of your posts addressed to Shri Kunjuppu, is not clear to me. Are you saying that I have satirized tambrams when I said that in another 20 or 30 years, "majority of the tambrams in India will have become indistinguishable from the other multitudes of the country both in terms of their modern, progressive outlook and customs"? Please clarify how this is satirical.
 

amala

Well-known member
Dear SangomJi,

You have addressed me correctly. I apologise for any misunderstanding caused. The satire part is my opinion. Nothing about your views at all. Kunjuppu mama was saying he was feeling sentimental about your post and had a lump in his throat. I was just saying to him i felt the same way reading one of his posts about Brahmins where I'm from, Malaysia.

Hope this clarifies. Again my sincere apologies if I have caused any offence.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
However I feel marriage is very personal a choice. I still don't get why not wanting a smoker is considered a preference but wanting someone from the same caste is bigotry. I don't think I shall ever understand this.[/FONT]

Dear Amala,

Its not only you finding difficulty in understanding the validity/logic behind contradicting views on the above subject matter. Its for every one of us in some or other way

It's all better for each of us to think and act in the way we can feel comfortable and satisfied. Supporting our views in any way for a favorable thumbs up from other group may not completely suffice. Apparently each one of us have our own requirements & preferences to be fit in our comfort zones. I know that you understand this very well for yourself. I have just added my comments to share the same views with yours.

As far as Brahmin Samajam in Malaysia, Singapore or in any part of this world is concerned, the body got its own vision and mission to sub-serve the local Brahmin community. As you have stated, the definite ideas and purposes of Brahmin Samajams, having active presence and functionality out side TN/India can never be considered as not worth a hill of beans. The samajams are doing their best as far as I could know, for our community living outside TN/India for generation over generations and for recent migrants as well.

By the way can we know, what those few choice of words we guys have (as you were found sure of us having in your post) for you Tambram girls, against the word "choplangi" for we Tambram guys??

Wanna know just to spice up and have some fun..... :)

 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
...
By the way can we know, what those few choice of words we guys have (as you were found sure of us having in your post) for you Tambram girls, against the word "choplangi" for we Tambram guys??

Wanna know just to spice up and have some fun..... :)


ravi,

i sure for one would like to know, for if at all anyone in the forum who has a critical view of our boys, it is me.

when i call them choplangis, i do it more out of frustration and sadness, because i believe that the failure of these guys to develop their physical sense and confidence rests solely on the shoulders of the parents.

many of this generation of parents of teenage youths are aware of the need to develop body and mind. but there may still be some of the old school who believe that any time wasted outside of books is waste of time. what they do not understand is that someone can stare at a book the whole day and absorb nothing, and suck up the whole book with a few hours of intense effort.

as a man of 60 years experience, brought up in the old school, and father of three young adults, i am now more than aware of the shortcomings of the previous generations. the biggest achievers of my years were not the nerds, but those who had a good handle on their studies and excelled in team sports. so it is in the context of such expectations and let downs, that i use them term, very sadly, choplangi. words cannot express my intensity of this waste of potential.

to amala's issue re comparing cigarette smokers vs ic marriage choices. i don't think anybody here advocated ic marriages per se. one has to read every post carefully, and ask for clarifications. what i meant was, if there was no choice of homegrown tambram boys in M'sia/S'pore because these boys were marrying into Malay or Chinese families, and our girls are still holding on to the traditional belief of marrying only tambram boys, the dice at this time is loaded against them in those two countries.

Ofcourse, i am unhappy that folks whom she knows or i know are impacted. i view life, as constant flow of problems. the worst reaction to any problem is to sit on it and do nothing. btw i did suggest a viable alternate to amala through pr msg which she has time to mull over :) .. maybe i would have mentioned that option in one of my obscure posts months ago ;)

i agree with amala. marriage is a very personal thing and we can wag our chin all we want. in the end, it sums up as an affair between the couple in question. though i feel that in india, many consider it an affair between two families rather than two individuals.

thank you.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
ravi,

i sure for one would like to know, for if at all anyone in the forum who has a critical view of our boys, it is me.

when i call them choplangis, i do it more out of frustration and sadness, because i believe that the failure of these guys to develop their physical sense and confidence rests solely on the shoulders of the parents.

many of this generation of parents of teenage youths are aware of the need to develop body and mind. but there may still be some of the old school who believe that any time wasted outside of books is waste of time. what they do not understand is that someone can stare at a book the whole day and absorb nothing, and suck up the whole book with a few hours of intense effort.

as a man of 60 years experience, brought up in the old school, and father of three young adults, i am now more than aware of the shortcomings of the previous generations. the biggest achievers of my years were not the nerds, but those who had a good handle on their studies and excelled in team sports. so it is in the context of such expectations and let downs, that i use them term, very sadly, choplangi. words cannot express my intensity of this waste of potential.

to amala's issue re comparing cigarette smokers vs ic marriage choices. i don't think anybody here advocated ic marriages per se. one has to read every post carefully, and ask for clarifications. what i meant was, if there was no choice of homegrown tambram boys in M'sia/S'pore because these boys were marrying into Malay or Chinese families, and our girls are still holding on to the traditional belief of marrying only tambram boys, the dice at this time is loaded against them in those two countries.

Ofcourse, i am unhappy that folks whom she knows or i know are impacted. i view life, as constant flow of problems. the worst reaction to any problem is to sit on it and do nothing. btw i did suggest a viable alternate to amala through pr msg which she has time to mull over :) .. maybe i would have mentioned that option in one of my obscure posts months ago ;)

i agree with amala. marriage is a very personal thing and we can wag our chin all we want. in the end, it sums up as an affair between the couple in question. though i feel that in india, many consider it an affair between two families rather than two individuals.

thank you.

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

From the time I joined this Forum till today, I have great respect and regard for you. I have enjoyed each of your posts and most of them reminds me of my parents way of imparting us the sense of family/social/economical values and the realities of life. Each of your posts speaks volume and every time I read, it gets straight into my heart first and than into my brain without any need for evaluating its sensibility.

Regarding your usage of typical term - "Choplangi" against some tambram guys, neither I have any thing to protest nor I believe any one else have. We understand its meaning and know the reasons too. We been brought up in various parts of North India, could have a different atmosphere to build our personality. We had a cosmopolitan upbringing due to father's transferable job in Indian Air Force and could well distinguish our self with those few of our cousins who were all born and brought up in Chennai. Off course it didn't take much of their time to convert themselves from Choplangis to Chanakyans...After all the metro cities got its own impacts on its inhabitants. May be the few choplangi teenagers/youths of previous generation or even the present generation were all those who all are living in non metro geographical areas..

Regarding your suggestions to Amala, there is no ambiguity in understanding your statements. I could very well sense the practical approach in your sincere and responsible solution to fish out the right Chanakyan..:)...Each of your post clearly reveals the level of your understanding and experience that you could gain from your practical life, which myself and Amala for sure can grasp and utilize to our benefit, each of your piece of information/tips/suggestion that you lovingly could offer. My statements to Amala were mere indications of basic human psychology/understanding. It sincerely got nothing to strike her with a second thought against your suggestions out of your wisdom.

I agree that marriage is considered an affair between two families in India rather than two individuals. But would like to add that, the couple in question takes the priority in considerations. This is how the two families though liking each other and feeling comfortable to become sambandhis, marriage possibilities between the couple in question remains a question until the boy and the girl fells each other compatible and comfortable to live with & for each other for rest of their lives. Off course exceptions do exists, but probably in those families in which girls don't have any say in their marriage affairs. And I believe these are the rare cases now a days.
 
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pannvalan

Well-known member
Cinema and media have a greater role to play in this. In any advertisement for soap, fairness creams, deodorant, chocolate, dress materials, drinks (soft drinks), vehicles etc., the central theme is to attract the opposite sex.

A product must help the user to entice a youth of the other sex, forcefully, is the message conveyed. This creates a wrong impression in the minds of both young boys and girls. They do not understand any lack of logic in the commercial ads and get carried away by them very easily.

So, a young man according to the theory of these ads is one who -

(1) Looks very handsome with strong muscles (macho)
(2) Possesses any product of the latest version
(3) Indulges in partying/rejoicing with a group of young boys and girls
(4) Speaks English effortlessly (with or without grammar)
(5) Spends extravagantly for his sweetheart
(6) Wanders around places and dances with his damsel like a joker
(7) Fights against all evils courageously, even if they do not concern him directly
(8) Has contacts with people at high places
(9) Will go to any extent to achieve his ends; this often reminds one of the proverb "Ends justify the means".
(10) Is concerned about the present only, forgetting one's past and with no definite plans for the future

On the contrary, a good responsible male must be a person who -

(1) Is willing and capable of shouldering responsibilities
(2) Has the capacity and strength to manage a whole family and to satisfy all their wants and needs, within his
means
(3) Affords protection and extends unreserved love and affection to all of them
(4) Believes in long standing relationship with all the relatives who came into his life before and after his marriage
(5) Attaches great importance to their well-being, come what may
(6) Does not swerve from the path of righteousness, while attempting to achieve one's objectives and goals in life
(7) Earns a good reputation in the neighbourhood and the local community for himself and his family
(8) Respects all elders and the wise
(9) Shapes the lives of his off-springs, with very clear ideals in mind
(10) Involves all the adult stakeholders in the family in decision making and does not reject any of their opinions,
without giving them a serious thought.

I do not know much deeper about people in western countries, in regard to these issues. But most certainly I would say this is the state of affairs in India, so far as the educated and urban-based youth are concerned.

I have just echoed my intense feelings and concerns here.

I anticipate the true, plain responses from the youth members of this forum.
 
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RVR

Well-known member


I agree that marriage is considered an affair between two families in India rather than two individuals. But would like to add that, the couple in question takes the priority in considerations. This is how the two families though liking each other and feeling comfortable to become sambandhis, marriage possibilities between the couple in question remains a question until the boy and the girl fells each other compatible and comfortable to live with & for each other for rest of their lives. Off course exceptions do exists, but probably in those families in which girls don't have any say in their marriage affairs. And I believe these are the rare cases now a days.

Ravi,

As you rightly said, marriages are long term alliances in Indian conditions irrespective of castes. I have seen lot of families in other communities also where the alliances are made after lot of deliberations on both sides. Both the boy and girl are important players in this and they are very much consulted and opinions are obtained before proceeding. Mostly marriages are taking place around the age of 25 plus in which both boy and girl are very much matured and they will not obey their respective parents just like that.

சும்மா கட்டுடா தாலியை என்று சொன்னால் எந்த பையனும் கட்டமாட்டான்
சும்மா அந்த பையனுக்கு கழுத்தை நீட்டு என்று சொன்னால் எந்த பெண்ணும் கழுத்தை நீட்டமாட்டால்

Definitely such marriages have better endurance as the elders are always available for counselling at later stage if some differences crops up.

All the best
 
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