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Directions - From Brhadharanyaka Upanishad

thebigthinkg

Active member
Background
Rudra are the quantum force-fields. prANa are the energy in these force-fields. This energy moves in vacuum of spacetime, without a medium in the force-fields. When the force-fields and energy in force-fields dominated the Universe, the Universe is said to be in the Quantum state.

cakSu is 'reception' of energy in these force-fields, where transmission of energy happens without a medium. Hence cakSu is translated as 'Sight' as seeing happens by reception of energy transmitted without a medium.

When force-fields interact with each other, such 'interaction' of energy between different force-fields leads to reception of energy between the force-fields mutually. This reception is the 'observation'. This observation leads to 'Satyata' or 'permanence' in the 'pratigrahah'/capturability as discussed here (1).

Thus the quantum wavefunction is said to collapse and the deterministic particle nature becomes permanent (Satya) on observation. This is the foundation of the 'Classical' Universe. The Classical Universe is filled with particles of matter.
Quantum Universe and Classical Universe
The early Universe with energy and force-fields is the Quantum Universe. This is before determinism or particle nature permanently manifested. This is the Universe of Rudras and prANa (1).

The Universe in which particle nature has acquired permanence is the Classical Universe. This is the Universe of deterministic matter particles.

The Classical Universe evolves from Quantum Universe because of cakSu and Zrotram. cakSu/Observation/Sight brings the Satyata as explained(1). Zrotram is the 'Hearing' that happens when energy flows in a medium of particles.

CakSu, the observation of energy flowing in vacuum and zrotram, the hearing of energy flowing in medium of particles are the two causes of Classical manifestation of Universe.
Difference between Quantum and Classical Universe
The classical Universe is different from Quantum Universe in

  1. Deterministic nature
    1. This is Satyata which is the permanence of the pratigrahah/capturability nature of energy that leads to deterministic particle manifestation
  2. Directions
    1. In Quantum state, there are no directions. But in classical Universe there are directions. This is the diSa.
  3. Endless expansion
    1. Universe's spacetime expands always. When classical matter dominates the Universe, it expands more. This is the 'anantata' of diSa or endlessness nature of directions.
Zrotram - When energy flows in a medium
Energy not only propagates in vacuum of spacetime, but also through particles of matter in the Classical Universe. The particles of matter become the medium for transmission of energy.

zrotram is 'reception' of energy transmitted through a medium of particles. Hence it is translated as 'hearing', as hearing happens by reception of energy transmitted through a medium.

When matter particles of a medium absorb/receive energy flowing through them, it is zrotram. The medium of particles has elasticity and inertia and hence they physically move receiving the energy flowing through them. For eg., in case of hearing, the ear drum vibrates on the reception of energy through a medium.
Brhadharanyaka Upanishad Sloka 4.1.5
nantam iti enad upāsīta;
kānantatā yājñavalkya?
diśa eva samrāḍiti hovāca,
tasmādvai samrāḍapi yāṃ kāṃ ca diśaṃ gacchati naivāsyā antaṃ gacchati
anantā hi diśoḥ;
diśo vai samrāṭ śrotram



Meaning
Yajnavalkya says 'zrotram is invoked as 'endless'. 'What is endless' asks Janaka. 'Endless are the directions' says Yajnavalkya. "Therefore whatever goes in any direction, the end is not reached. the directions are endless. The directions are the zrotraM'.

Directions originate because of zrotram. Directions are endless. Whatever moves in any direction, end is never reached as it is expanding endlessly. So zrotram invokes the endlessness.

How can zrotram, hearing, which is reception of energy through medium of particles cause directions and endlessness of directions..?
Universe has no direction/diSa
The Universe spacetime is mostly vacuum. But there is energy in the vacuum. There are force-fields in the vacuum. There are particle and anti-particle pairs popping out of the vacuum and annihilating themselves back into vacuum.

Universe also has no 'sense' of direction. It is expanding at the same rate in all directions.

Assuming there is no matter in the Universe, then the Universe looks the same in all directions. It means, the vast Universe has no differentiating 'directions' without the presence of matter. It is same everywhere.

But then there is matter in the Universe. The clumped up matter is spread all around and this clumped up matter gives some difference in the way Universe looks. How did this clumping up of matter occur..?

It occured by 'zrotram' or Hearing.
Zrotram brings in direction/diSa or anisotropies
Science says the current structure of Universe is explained by Baryonic Acoustic oscillations(2) or Cosmic sound. Vedas and Upanishads say it is caused by OmkAra or praNava.

The early Universe in the Photon epoch was an Universe of hot, dense, plasma of baryons, electrons and photons.

This hot, dense plasma with dark matter and matter bends the spacetime it occupies and produces gravitational warping that compresses matter. But the energy of the photons, travels/radiates towards outside on these matter.

This is like pebble dropping in a pond. An oscillating wave of photons pushes the baryonic matter to the edges. Actually it is like multiple pebbles dropping in a pond. Multiple oscillations carried by photons push the matter differently in different directions.

These oscillations are acoustic waves or sound waves as they are energy traveling through a medium of particles. These oscillations are called the Baryon acoustic oscillations. They are the praNava.

These waves of photons traveling in multiple directions (as in multiple pebbles being dropped in a pond) are 'heard' by matter particles as a result of which they aggregate differently and create 'anisotropies'. Basically they aggregate differently in different directions. It is because the matter particles 'hear' the baryonic acoustic oscillations, matter gets aggregated differently in different directions.

Thus zrotram, the hearing of the baryonic acoustic oscillations or praNava, brings in the anisotropies of matter and the concept of 'direction' or 'diSa' to the Universe.

In short, baryonic acoustic oscillations aggregating matter causes anisotropies (directional properties) says Standard Model. Zrotram causes the diSa says Brhadharanyaka Upanishad.
Zrotram invokes 'anantata'
At the same time, the Universe spacetime also expands due to dark energy. Hence these anisotropies (directional properties) also get inflated along with it. The spaces between the aggregated matter which were smaller in the early Universe, become huge as the spacetime expands.

Think of a balloon which originally had some ice-cream drops aggregated on it. When this balloon expands, the drops become much far apart.

In whichever direction the aggregated matter travels due to expansion of spacetime, there is no end to that, as that moving away is caused by expansion of spacetime. Universe spacetime gets filled with aggregated matter with huge AkAsa or empty space between them, differently in different directions.

Since the spacetime is ever expanding, the directions are ever-expanding and endless.

In short anisotropies (directional properties) happen due to matter getting accumulated by Baryonic acoustic oscillations, the space between the accumulated matter expand endlessly due to spacetime expansion says Standard Model.

In short direction/diSa originates because of Zrotram, whichever direction matter travels, it is endless as the directions are endless says Brhadharanyaka Upanishad.

-TBT

References

  1. https://vedabhasya.blogspot.com/2019/02/wavefunction-collapse-from.html
  2. https://vedabhasya.blogspot.com/2018/09/an-analysis-of-sabda-and-vak-part-5.html
 

a-TB

Active member
Dear Mr TBT:

While promoting your blog and your views about Upanishad and Physics, I have two basic quesitons.

Physics I understand is study of matter (you can supply a different definition if you prefer). Study is to understand nature just to understand it. Technology is an application to use this knowledge for improving our life.

Like a simple definition above can you say ;
What is an Upanishad?
What is its use?


Thanks
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
If Rg veda is cosmic science, then Upanishads are 'cosmic science for dummies'. They give analogies to explain the cosmic science concepts. The analogies became the mainstay in the vedanta as people philosophised on the analogies.
 

agopal

Member
Hello @thebigthinkg did you consider "closed" non-euclidean geometric structures being Universe's structure? In any of such non-euclidean geometry (Riemann geometry for e.g.) a line could be infinite easily. For e.g. on a sphere between two points I could potentially wind a Infinite length "straw" like tube starting point is say A and ending point is B. It could wind all over the Sphere. A traveler from A to B would be travelling inside the Straw tube and go in which ever direction he pleases thinking that it is 3-dimensional. Before a traveler reaches a point X between A and B The "straw winder" could turn the straw in any direction he chooses and make it as lengthy as can be ! Now you could imagine, How many such "Spheres" are there? Who is the "straw winder" ? How many such "straw winders" are required to manage a set of Spheres? What's the minimum speed that the straw winder needs to set so that he can always reach X before the traveler considering all the other Spheres. Now, what about the straw winder's Universe? Is in a Sphere as well ? Does His Straw wind around as well :)? What about if there are "knots" in the wound straw? If the knot tightens what gives/yields? What really is the straw made of ?
What then is non-locality in Quantum Mechanics? Are there Infinite straw winders? Are there infinite Spheres? Who then is the overseer :)?
 

a-TB

Active member
If Rg veda is cosmic science, then Upanishads are 'cosmic science for dummies'. They give analogies to explain the cosmic science concepts. The analogies became the mainstay in the vedanta as people philosophised on the analogies.
Not a convincing statement. Rg Veda may have something we call science (like about origin of universe) but it is not science that is useful for any application. So that cannot be the main reason for existence of Rg Veda.

If Upanishad is all about cosmic science for dummies we do not really need it because we have the real deal which is the actual science. Who has the time to go over Upanishads in order to get analogies for real science. No one except you has that imagination.


The purpose of Upanishad and Veda must be something else. And you are not aware of what that is.
So you have a basic disconnect as to the purpose of the two disciplines - physics and Upanishads. That means connection you try to imagine is also not valid.

Someone well versed in Upanishad can clarify purpose of Upanishads since they are still studied (and not for any analogies). If we compare the Upanishads and Science we will find completely different objectives.
So all connections imagined are senseless.
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
Hello @thebigthinkg did you consider "closed" non-euclidean geometric structures being Universe's structure? In any of such non-euclidean geometry (Riemann geometry for e.g.) a line could be infinite easily. For e.g. on a sphere between two points I could potentially wind a Infinite length "straw" like tube starting point is say A and ending point is B. It could wind all over the Sphere. A traveler from A to B would be travelling inside the Straw tube and go in which ever direction he pleases thinking that it is 3-dimensional. Before a traveler reaches a point X between A and B The "straw winder" could turn the straw in any direction he chooses and make it as lengthy as can be ! Now you could imagine, How many such "Spheres" are there? Who is the "straw winder" ? How many such "straw winders" are required to manage a set of Spheres? What's the minimum speed that the straw winder needs to set so that he can always reach X before the traveler considering all the other Spheres. Now, what about the straw winder's Universe? Is in a Sphere as well ? Does His Straw wind around as well :)? What about if there are "knots" in the wound straw? If the knot tightens what gives/yields? What really is the straw made of ?
What then is non-locality in Quantum Mechanics? Are there Infinite straw winders? Are there infinite Spheres? Who then is the overseer :)?
In general, very good points. The 'Geometry' and 'Mathematics' are very important. Some of them, will come up during the course of these posts, for sure. Will flag you then, if you are interested.
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
Not a convincing statement. Rg Veda may have something we call science (like about origin of universe) but it is not science that is useful for any application. So that cannot be the main reason for existence of Rg Veda.

If Upanishad is all about cosmic science for dummies we do not really need it because we have the real deal which is the actual science. Who has the time to go over Upanishads in order to get analogies for real science. No one except you has that imagination.


The purpose of Upanishad and Veda must be something else. And you are not aware of what that is.
So you have a basic disconnect as to the purpose of the two disciplines - physics and Upanishads. That means connection you try to imagine is also not valid.

Someone well versed in Upanishad can clarify purpose of Upanishads since they are still studied (and not for any analogies). If we compare the Upanishads and Science we will find completely different objectives.
So all connections imagined are senseless.
Ok. :) Enjoy.
 

a-TB

Active member
Ok. :) Enjoy.
Are you agreeing with the logic presented without any rebuttal? If so all your thesis of making connections have no standing.

I did a bit of digging by talking to someone I know and also did some Google search.

The topic of Upanishad is about all liberation from the world (Moksha) and it has nothing do with any worldly pursuits like Science.

Now if you look for connections of Physics to Purana stories that is a different ball game (though unlikely). But any talk Upanishads telling you about analogies with Science is contradictory to the objectives of each branch.

If you agree I hope you live by the conclusions in your posts since I hope you respect basic logic. If you do not agree please present your rebuttal
 

agopal

Member
In general, very good points. The 'Geometry' and 'Mathematics' are very important. Some of them, will come up during the course of these posts, for sure. Will flag you then, if you are interested.
They are not just important they are probably reality itself. You have to do some more readings on the current state of affairs in Physics. Here are some relevant topics that include Kalabi-Yau manifolds from Super String theory, Kolmogorov homology in Quantum mechanics which is a Knot Invariant in Quantum realm and Renormalization Group concept as applied to Quantum Electro-Dynamics and Inflation theory in Cosmology. Of course, there always is Quantum-entanglement in Classical domain( > = Planck constant levels) which is what we are moving towards.. Do you know for e.g. that two electrons are entangled even-though they are separated by thousands of miles? They have done that experiment mid 2018. Did you read about differing Hubble's constant measurements which will probably break the Standard Model? It is important to trust the experts in those fields before attempting to explain away and attempt to connect unconnected fields. Doesn't mean there is no connection between the fields . It is just that we should have the humility to accept our explanation could be incorrect!
 

agopal

Member
Its actually Khovanov homology. Here are some links:

 

agopal

Member
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
They are not just important they are probably reality itself. You have to do some more readings on the current state of affairs in Physics. Here are some relevant topics that include Kalabi-Yau manifolds from Super String theory, Kolmogorov homology in Quantum mechanics which is a Knot Invariant in Quantum realm and Renormalization Group concept as applied to Quantum Electro-Dynamics and Inflation theory in Cosmology. Of course, there always is Quantum-entanglement in Classical domain( > = Planck constant levels) which is what we are moving towards.. Do you know for e.g. that two electrons are entangled even-though they are separated by thousands of miles? They have done that experiment mid 2018. Did you read about differing Hubble's constant measurements which will probably break the Standard Model? It is important to trust the experts in those fields before attempting to explain away and attempt to connect unconnected fields. Doesn't mean there is no connection between the fields . It is just that we should have the humility to accept our explanation could be incorrect!
Quantum entanglement (EPR or spooky action at a distance) is one of the basic elements of Quantum physics. One has to understand the nature of Quantum fields (Rudras in my understanding) to know why it happens. I will surely be exploring it.

As far as 'geometry' of space/manifolds (euclidean, non-euclidean, calabi-yau or other multi-dimensional space with different properties) and mathematics (like renormalizaiton group concepts, kolmogorov duality), they are the tools, how we, human beings, have explored, visualized and understood the universe. The 'reality' is sometimes very complex or actually very simple and changes as our understanding evolves.

For eg. the case you mentioned of varying hubble constants, there is no new particle being theorized. It will take sometime. There are various explanations for it including gravitational waves.

What I understand currently is that Standard Model fits very well into my understanding of vedic and upanishidic descriptions and seems more consistent.

Universe is Hiranyagarbha, a 'golden womb' (of empty space/vacuum filled with vacuum energy inside expanding dark energy, with eleven rudras or forcefields manifesting on vacuum energy), a four dimensional space, with one dimension hidden, which we perceive as time. When this womb expands it is called 'Brahma' or expansion. Shiva is Energy (in various forms from dark energy, vacuum energy, energy in force-fields, potential energy locked in matter etc), Vishnu is property of Mass caused by Higgs field, which is one of the 'Rudras' or force-fields. The Brahma, the expanding womb or spacetime bends to Energy (hence called ka-ancha) and we perceive gravity.

I totally understand people being skeptical of such work. That skepticism is what I need/expect. It raises many questions and helps me to find more answers. At the end, even I may say, I am wrong. :). No worries.

-TBT
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
Are you agreeing with the logic presented without any rebuttal? If so all your thesis of making connections have no standing.

I did a bit of digging by talking to someone I know and also did some Google search.

The topic of Upanishad is about all liberation from the world (Moksha) and it has nothing do with any worldly pursuits like Science.

Now if you look for connections of Physics to Purana stories that is a different ball game (though unlikely). But any talk Upanishads telling you about analogies with Science is contradictory to the objectives of each branch.

If you agree I hope you live by the conclusions in your posts since I hope you respect basic logic. If you do not agree please present your rebuttal
Sir

There are two 'belief's here at this point of time clashing. One is the very old belief that Upanishads are all about vedanta, liberation of soul, philosophy etc.

Most people who talk about that have not even read any upanishad completely. They have not even read any Vedas completely. None knows their meanings. Reciting vedas or quoting some random upanishad slokas and connecting them with our regular lives, is what has gone on for hundreds of years in this country.

Here I am presenting another 'belief' which on my study of Vedas and upanishads, they are cosmic science simplified, they are design patterns on various evolutionary stages of Universe. What I am saying is also a 'belief' at this point of time, as it is not peer reviewed or critically analysed. It is just my understanding.

It's going to be tough to resolve two beliefs. Hence I did not answer.

If you point out a problem in my translations or in my understanding or in the way I map etc, then I can dig through and answer.

-TBT
 

a-TB

Active member
Sir

There are two 'belief's here at this point of time clashing. One is the very old belief that Upanishads are all about vedanta, liberation of soul, philosophy etc.

Most people who talk about that have not even read any upanishad completely. They have not even read any Vedas completely. None knows their meanings. Reciting vedas or quoting some random upanishad slokas and connecting them with our regular lives, is what has gone on for hundreds of years in this country.

Here I am presenting another 'belief' which on my study of Vedas and upanishads, they are cosmic science simplified, they are design patterns on various evolutionary stages of Universe. What I am saying is also a 'belief' at this point of time, as it is not peer reviewed or critically analysed. It is just my understanding.

It's going to be tough to resolve two beliefs. Hence I did not answer.

If you point out a problem in my translations or in my understanding or in the way I map etc, then I can dig through and answer.

-TBT
Dear Mr TBT:

Here are some issues I see with your reasoning.

One is that you are comparing a set of beliefs that you only seem to have with a subject like Science that is rooted on reasons, evidence and facts. Beliefs and reasons never mix. In order to have a peer review you will need a peer who is into reasons. Two believers cannot prove to others in the world they are right.


Second you claim followers of Vedanta have an old belief that you dont agree with. But the subject of Vedanta is described as Knowledge requiring teaching. I cannot see why one would be teaching a belief over the centuries. True experts in Vedanta will not agree it is a belief. Only if it is reason based it would make sense to compare with another reason based subject such as Science.

So my original objections remain. You are not comparing two beliefs. You are comparing a belief with a evidence based subject which cannot work
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
Dear Mr TBT:

Here are some issues I see with your reasoning.

One is that you are comparing a set of beliefs that you only seem to have with a subject like Science that is rooted on reasons, evidence and facts. Beliefs and reasons never mix. In order to have a peer review you will need a peer who is into reasons. Two believers cannot prove to others in the world they are right.


Second you claim followers of Vedanta have an old belief that you dont agree with. But the subject of Vedanta is described as Knowledge requiring teaching. I cannot see why one would be teaching a belief over the centuries. True experts in Vedanta will not agree it is a belief. Only if it is reason based it would make sense to compare with another reason based subject such as Science.

So my original objections remain. You are not comparing two beliefs. You are comparing a belief with a evidence based subject which cannot work
:) - You may be right. Who knows..? Enjoy.

-TBT
 

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