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bhaja govindam

thebigthinkg

Active member
One of the biggest quandrums in advaitic understanding is how Adi Shankara who wrote nirvAna shatakam /brahma jnAna vali mAla etc (which are jnAnA simplified) also wrote bhaja govindam, siva manasa puja et al (which are bhakti simplified).

Several explanations are given based on one's own theological background. But the answer to this puzzle lies in many mahA-periyavA's discourses. mahAperiyavA keeps repeating in his discourses that bhakti is the way or the means to jnAnA.

If one understands bhaja govindam song, what do we ask for, from govinda..? We ask for the jnAnA or realization that helps us to be detachedly attached, hammering out the mohA (extreme attachment). bhaja govindam song in tamil essence in english with mahaperiyava discourse.

 

a-TB

Well-known member
Theological background is contradictory to any teachings of Advita. So giving explanations from theological background is an oxymoron.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Nothing is contradictory to Advaita. Unless you utter some nonsense all that are logical should be in sync with Advaita.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Bhakthi is about surrendering yourself to God and seeking his guidance for mental elevation. You are putting something above your ego which can be argued even in a logical way to give unbiased and therefore elevated thinking.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Bhakthi is about surrendering yourself to God and seeking his guidance for mental elevation. You are putting something above your ego which can be argued even in a logical way to give unbiased and therefore elevated thinking.
To a great extent, every Yoga is related be it Bhakti or Jnaana or Karma.
We would need to experience everything in no particular order but to get actual jnaana, bhakti as in total surrender is mandatory.

We usually do not understand the true meaning of surrender.
We usually think surrender is losing..like how an army surrenders by waving the white flag as in losing the war.

In Bhakti yoga surrender is NOT losing but its actually inheriting the kingdom of God where He becomes our charioteer and takes us on a journey of Sat Chit Ananda.

Krishna only started revealing the deepest knowledge to Arjuna after he surrendered to Krishna.
It was a moment of powerlessness where Arjuna actually inherited the Kingdom on earth and also the Kingdom of God.

Krishna told him to be merely an instrument and He( Krishna) will function through Arjuna.

So what else do we need?
Honestly God is just waiting for us to let Him in..its we who delay it because we just simply cant open the door.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Well said Renuka. Surrender implies total faith that God will help us. Let us take some pragmatics into account. People typically expect results and also immediately. But true bhakthi is above that. It is about having and sustaining the faith in God irrespective of results. It also needs patience. It is a state of mind that we need to seek. If we reach that right state of mind results will follow. A little more pragmatics here. You will see results because when you reach the right state of mind you are in in sync with very high level spiritual energy which is at the level of divinity. So you are bound to get response because you are really in touch with God and right things will happen to you.

So folks please first make sure you become a true bhaktha and results spontaneously follow.
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
Ok. I think mahaperiyava is right that bhakti is a way to jnana.

The advaita saramsa as in brahma jnana vali mala seeks that detached observing self in us, realizing which is brahma jnana. Bhaja govindam seeks the same through devotion to govinda.

Actually due to my knowledge or understanding limitations, I do not understand the contradictions or points. made, completely.

One thing I know is there are lots of perspectives in human beings.

 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Advaita philosophy isnt really bone dry logic as most of us think.
Advaita philosophy is cryptic and it needs to unfold to us the deeper meaning.

Advaita philosophy functions in a sutra format where its just very technical but within it lies the fragrance of surrender of Ego to Ishvara.

Patanjali yoga sutra mentions about Ishvara Pranidhana which is all about surrender.

If one isnt too pleased about the idea of surrendering to a God high up in heaven, then one can totally surrender to the Universal Consciousness which is the same consciousness that pervades everything animate or inanimate.

The God concept helps us shed our ego faster, thats all.


The link below explains well..especially this paragraph

"The practice of Ishvara Pranidhana therefore means that if we are able to completely surrender our individual ego identities to God (our own higher self) we will attain the identity of God. If we can dedicate our lives to serving the God that dwells within all other beings, human and non-human alike, we will move beyond all feelings of separateness. If we can say without reservation, “I give You myself: my body, my mind and my heart, to do with as You best see fit,” then we will be freed from the stress, anxiety, self-doubt and negative karma that arises from our reliance upon our egos to determine which actions we take in our lives."
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Ok. I think mahaperiyava is right that bhakti is a way to jnana.

The advaita saramsa as in brahma jnana vali mala seeks that detached observing self in us, realizing which is brahma jnana. Bhaja govindam seeks the same through devotion to govinda.

Actually due to my knowledge or understanding limitations, I do not understand the contradictions or points. made, completely.

One thing I know is there are lots of perspectives in human beings.

Message about detached observation is Anubhava but not experience that we normally understand, which is a 'mind thing'.

Theology is only about beliefs and have no basis in reasons.

Advita from my understanding is not subject to logic but is not contradictory to logic. For example we can only say what kind of mind can never fathom the teachings of oneness. They include

A. Those that think God is a concept. A concept is a mind thing.
B. Those who have prejudices and ill will can only use words of Advita and never have hopes of understanding. There are a few who harbor ill wills against LGBTQ people, and have latent ill will based on caste etc. Such a crude mind cannot fathom Advita.
C. Those who think Advita, Brahman, Maya, Saguna , Isvara as concepts
D. Those who believe in Siddhi and super natural powers, spiritual power
E. And so on ..

So it is easy to point out contradictions arising from such minds only. That is all I was trying to do.

I am not offering any perspectives or new views. I am just a learner.

At the highest levels of understanding Bhakthi and Jnana are one and the same. Emotionalism is not Bhakthi, Blind belief is not Bhakthi . Superstitions is not Bhakthi.

To know Bhakthi one must know what is God.

All contradictions arise from misunderstanding of what God is.

I can easily see some saying , "I know God - he is in Vaikunta" or some other saying "Maya Plus Nirguna Brahma is God" etc LOL
 

sravna

Well-known member
Advaita is very much based on experience. The concept of maya can be experienced and easily understood if one undergoes spiritual elevation. Then the truth that removal of maya is experience of reality can be understood.

I have had first hand experience and still through the process of that spiritual transformation. I can vouch for spiritual and supernatural powers.

The misunderstanding arises only because there is no real experience and one sticks to one's own biased views or relies on just hearsay.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member

Chapter 6:​

TEXT 47
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantar-atmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo matah
SYNONYMS
yoginam—of all yogis; api—also; sarvesam—all types of; mat-gatena—abiding in Me; antah-atmana—always thinking of Me within; sraddhavan—in full faith; bhajate—renders transcendental loving service; yah—one who; mam—Me (the Supreme Lord); sah—he; me—Mine; yuktatamah—the greatest yogi; matah—is considered.
TRANSLATION
And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all



Keywords
1)Abiding in God
2)Great faith
3)Worshipping God


I cant seem to find dry non experienced based intellectualization over analytical types are the best of Yogis.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
It is an honest and simple mind which acknowledges the duality that it finds itself in. Somehow there is pretension to know Advita among many while entirely speaking and living the the language, beliefs and the spirit of duality.


“If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck!”​

 

a-TB

Well-known member
For most part it is not even authentic dualism. Imagination and clueless-ness produce only confusion.

Mr TBT is sincere from my past interactions. My comments are only provided to provoke thinking for those that seek the truth.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Since when duality has become an issue?
In fact I never saw a word about Advaita in the Bhagavad Gita.
Most religions in the world are about duality.
Just that Vaishnavaism tries to get a little feel of Advaita by calling it Vishishtadvaita ..to get a feel of everything came from God but a tad bit different.

Advaita makes a nice read and it a nice read.
In reality 99.99999999% of us are total DUALIST.
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
I see it this way.

We experience heat, light, sound, motion, mass etc. We say all of them are caused by one single thing called Energy. We say energy has all these forms. Since mass is also energy, all the Universe matter and beings including us are effects of energy.

But can we define energy more than this..? No. we can define energy only by its effects. Then why we are defining all the effects to just one cause called energy..? Why can't it be multiple causes..? Because we see this transformation of one effect from another, we say all of these are attributed to one cause. This assumption or understanding of us (as one cause called energy) also works mathematically perfect.

One way to look at it is 'Energy' is the observer which we cannot fathom, which is just a witness to all the transformations happening. The effects of energy such as momentum are the 'observed', which keep getting transformed from one form into another. But then these two cannot be separated at all..

We can say we are a bundle of energy, when we view it from the perspective of energy. We can say we are the effect of energy when we view it from the perspective of the effect.

We can finite is part of the infinite, when looking at it from infinite side. We can say finite can never become infinite when looking at it from finite side.

I can map all these arguments on Energy to consciousness too. But that's another digression.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Energy indeed is the most fundamental existence in reality. We can relate what
Shri .TBT thinks of energy to only the nirguna brahman reality. Everything thing else are effects coming out of that ultimate cause. Separation as observer and observed happens.

Bhakthi yoga, gnana yoga and karma yoga are all aimed at expansion of self to end up as the one reality of nirguna brahman. Theology is typically bhakthi based and serves the same purpose as bhakthi yoga.
 
Energy indeed is the most fundamental existence in reality. We can relate what
Shri .TBT thinks of energy to only the nirguna brahman reality. Everything thing else are effects coming out of that ultimate cause. Separation as observer and observed happens.

Bhakthi yoga, gnana yoga and karma yoga are all aimed at expansion of self to end up as the one reality of nirguna brahman. Theology is typically bhakthi based and serves the same purpose as bhakthi yoga.
 
Surrender to the lotus feet of lord, one suppose to give up everything to his will. One does not ask or decide for oneself. It is decided by the supremewill. One will get what is required for one self not more or less. One is taken care of in every aspect and is guided on to the right path. One does not question or complain and accept every thing for the good and understanding drawns on oneself that every thing happens according to the supreme will. One is simply is medium not the real actor and with the understanding one watchs with detachment.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
I see it this way.

We experience heat, light, sound, motion, mass etc. We say all of them are caused by one single thing called Energy. We say energy has all these forms. Since mass is also energy, all the Universe matter and beings including us are effects of energy.

But can we define energy more than this..? No. we can define energy only by its effects. Then why we are defining all the effects to just one cause called energy..? Why can't it be multiple causes..? Because we see this transformation of one effect from another, we say all of these are attributed to one cause. This assumption or understanding of us (as one cause called energy) also works mathematically perfect.

One way to look at it is 'Energy' is the observer which we cannot fathom, which is just a witness to all the transformations happening. The effects of energy such as momentum are the 'observed', which keep getting transformed from one form into another. But then these two cannot be separated at all..

We can say we are a bundle of energy, when we view it from the perspective of energy. We can say we are the effect of energy when we view it from the perspective of the effect.

We can finite is part of the infinite, when looking at it from infinite side. We can say finite can never become infinite when looking at it from finite side.

I can map all these arguments on Energy to consciousness too. But that's another digression.
Energy is insentient. Like energy in a big bang according to current theories. Scientist 'believe' sentience came from insentient. That seems to be not right. So Energy cannot be the ultimate reality

Also Energy means motion and change (I can be corrected) and then it means time is already assumed. Did Energy produce time - No .. so Energy is not the ultimate reality.

Most of these and other posts seem digression to me. Let me explain.

My comment initially was that theology based on beliefs cannot be included in any description of non-duality.

Some think beliefs and faith (blind beliefs really) based on stories and imagination is Bhakthi. In which case no discussion is possible.

Advita Jnanis talk about Bhakthi. Is that the same as dualistic Bhakthi? It cannot be so because dualistic Bhakthi promotes opposite of non-duality.

Pure dualistic belief is glorious in its own right. But these people who claim to study Advita and propagate dualistic Bhakthi are confused and do not want to know they are confused

These are the issues I have seen thus far.
 
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