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Bhaja Govindam: Dukrunjkarane
- Thread starter tks
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Thank you for that explanation. I have a hard time thinking of a deity or Bhagavan or Isvara like you put it, of limitless power listening to my prayer and intervening. I cannot accept such a Bhagavan because it makes no sense to my mind why God of limitless power creates us and watches over what we do. Give us free will but punish us if I do not go by the rules set by Bhagavan. By raising this question I may get labeled as an Atheist . I liked your explanations but how can I really develop devotion if I feel that religious ideas of a God are contradictory at many levels.
Here is a logical contradiction. Is God is independent and he just goes about creating all of us creatures. If so, he is really a cruel person because there are people suffering endlessly for no fault of their own.
If our sufferings and enjoyment are due to Karma of our actions of past lives then God has no independence in creating us or shaping our life. He cannot be almighty then.
So either God is powerful and cruel & arbitrary OR he is powerless - Both of these do not make sense
Anyway to resolve this ? Am I the only one seeing the contradictions or other members have similar questions too?
Here is a logical contradiction. Is God is independent and he just goes about creating all of us creatures. If so, he is really a cruel person because there are people suffering endlessly for no fault of their own.
If our sufferings and enjoyment are due to Karma of our actions of past lives then God has no independence in creating us or shaping our life. He cannot be almighty then.
So either God is powerful and cruel & arbitrary OR he is powerless - Both of these do not make sense
Anyway to resolve this ? Am I the only one seeing the contradictions or other members have similar questions too?
OP
OP
tks
Well-known member
Thank you Sri Maha52, Glad you found the thread useful. May your quest to realize Govinda come true.
OP
OP
tks
Well-known member
Religions of the world supported by beliefs and theologies portray a model of Bhagavan that intervenes in our lives. As stated earlier in this thread itself with citation of a verse of Brahmasutra, Bhagavan cannot be partial or cruel or be arbitrary. There is no contradiction with this assertion.
We are dealing not with beliefs but understanding. In this entire thread, there was not a single suggestion for anyone to believe anything.
Bhagavan cannot be expressed in words and our mind cannot conceive the reality of Bhagavan. Mind can understand this part that Bhagavan is unknown and unknowable and cannot be grasped using the tweezers of our mind.
We deliberately superimpose formless, timeless, unknown and unknowable Bhagavan in a Prathima or image so that we can focus our mind in Upasana. We have a variety of models of reality and as we progress we go from one level of truth to another.
To the extent we are in delusion and we believe we are doers of action, we operate within the laws of Karma and Karma Phala. Our actions now bear fruits in this or future lives. Bhagavan is not the one that gives our birth and our Phala. It is our own doing.
Then what is the role of Bhagavan, you ask.
We say that the very law itself is an expression of Bhagavan. Therefore Bhagavan is understood as Karma Phala Dhatha (giver of fruits of our actions). There was a thread about Ganesha in this section itself that goes into more depths of this understanding of Isvara.
So with this understanding, there are no contradictions.
Our mind is constantly agitated with all kinds of thoughts and it is like turbulent body of water that is dirty. If one follows Nithya Karmas, and strive to achieve all those necessary conditions, the mind will get more pure. One Nithya Karma could be daily meditation. In this thread itself there are suggested visions for Upasana that can be followed. Or it could be chanting of OM with love.
Anyone serious will have to follow such steps. Often if there is a qualified teacher there would be encouragement and discipline to get started on such practices . Too much analysis cannot help here. Just begin Upasana with earnestness and sincerity. Devotion will come naturally. It is like the body of water got cleansed by chemical treatment. Then mind can focus on Govinda with the anchor of OM and mind will be like a body of water that is pure and still. Being one with Bhagavan is more like losing one's identity and that will follow naturally.
OP
OP
tks
Well-known member
Moksha (Liberation) is NOT FOR the person, but FROM the person (we take ourselves to be)
Earnestness, Bhakthi and deep desire for liberation are the starting steps
OP
OP
tks
Well-known member
I was not able to readily locate the quoted segment of the Bhashya using the information provided . Context is most important to understand the full purport of a given segment.
I did not spend more time since it is tangential to the topic of this thread and I have showed already how the other example provided was not correctly interpreted.
If another thread was opened for further discussion I may have participated if there was a genuine desire to explore.
The statement "Saguna Brahman as a staged evolution to Nirguna Brahman is well dealt with, in the Brahma Sutra Bhashyam" is not meaningful to me.
Brahma Sutras are collections of teachings of Upanishad and their analysis presented in a coherent manner. The commentaries of Sri Sankara aids us in a holistic understanding. It is a very large body of work.
A possible and oversimplified interpretation of the statement is something like this. After death of the body , one could be born as a human or a non-human or go for heaven or hell experience based on one's Karma phala . Heaven and hell are temporary and not for ever. The cycle of birth and death continues even after heaven experience is over. Also we have 7 different heavens and the ultimate one is called Satya Loka where one reaches the abode of Hiranya Garbha (Cosmic purusha). One can call this Vishnu or Siva or Devi etc.
But even Satya Loka will come to an end during Pralaya (dissolution) when the entire creation will be in an un-manifest form. During the next cycle the apparent creation will start and all the Jivas will continue their birth and death cycles. Puranic stories claim that the next one to occupy the role of the head of Satya Loka will be Hanuman.
Now at Satya Loka, those Jivas reaching will be taught the ultimate truth by Hiranya Garbha (Tat Tvam Asi). Those who get it will cease to have further birth and death cycles and realize their true nature. Others will continue their birth and death cycle beginning with the next cycle of this apparent creation.
When there is cessation of birth and death cycles it is said that one has realized one's nature which is Nirguna Brahman.
In the above model, one need not go to Satya Loka (in stages) to get that knowledge. It can be had here and now and be liberated.
I think this thread can be closed at this point. I will request Sri Praveen to do so.
OM
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