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Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi

OP
OP
K

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri Mani Chennai Sir,

Please read Chaper 7 of Bhagawad Gita, to understand how much spirituality is prevalent in the population.

The reincarnation concept in our religion answers your questions.

For every Mahan we know, there are many Jeevan Mukthas in the world. It is just that their roles are different than these Mahans and so they are unknown to us.

We all think we are knowledgeable and so sit in judgement of others. If one understands that ‘knowledge’ for us nowadays comes with all sorts of colored opinions masquerading as ‘Truth’, we would be more careful. I used to do so when I was young, but realized as I got older that, there is no use in worrying about the world - the most important thing is not to waste this life without striving to understand ‘who am I?’. I fortunately had such experiences in my life that made me go this way.

I am saying all this, not to say your queries are wrong. But, I am saying that if you are earnest in finding answers to your questions, our religion has the answers.

God bless.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Shri KRS,

Thoughtful post. In Kaliyuga it is just not enough I believe to understand self alone or in other words not enough to go past the veiling maya. Because it is a long and slow process which will not address immediate problems of the society. So it is necessary to work on the external world or the projecting maya and try to set things right at that level. In that way even the veiling maya will automatically be lifted.

What do you think?
 
OP
OP
K

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Shri KRS,

Thoughtful post. In Kaliyuga it is just not enough I believe to understand self alone or in other words not enough to go past the veiling maya. Because it is a long and slow process which will not address immediate problems of the society. So it is necessary to work on the external world or the projecting maya and try to set things right at that level. In that way even the veiling maya will automatically be lifted.

What do you think?
Sri Sravana Ji,

There is no ‘problem’ with the society, in the sense that it is all Maya.

It is very simple. You have two choices in life.

One is to be engaged in Samsara, getting all the ‘satisfaction’ in solving world’s problems, and thinking that one contributed to ‘leaving the world better’ for one’s progeny. But this presupposes that the world can become unipolar, or the Utopian good. But we know that is not possible. Maya is bipolar. No positive without the negative. That is the nature of the material world. This is why when you go to the extreme of something, the opposition to it is clearly visible.

The only way out of this conundrum is to follow the teachings of our scriptures, if you accept the reality of Samsara and the pain it causes.

So then, this is your other option. Our religion, miraculously offers this option, if you choose it. And not only that, the achievement of this end, by the ways (Yogas)) and the means (Sadhanas) will make you a better, fulfilled human being in this life (as attested to numerous beings practicing such things).

It seems to me, living in a world, which depends on a Universe for existence (Sun can change the orbit, Moon can crash in to Earth, and other possible calamities we can not control), it is silly to ‘progress’ the world, without having some reverence to the Almighty.

Fortunately, we have our forefathers, who invented the concept of numbers, let alone other sciences, who thought about these things and left us a legacy.

As my family Guru, the Mahan of Kancheepuram said, “Only Dharma protects’.

Hope this answers.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Shri KRS,

Thoughtful post. In Kaliyuga it is just not enough I believe to understand self alone or in other words not enough to go past the veiling maya. Because it is a long and slow process which will not address immediate problems of the society. So it is necessary to work on the external world or the projecting maya and try to set things right at that level. In that way even the veiling maya will automatically be lifted.

What do you think?
Sravna...i got a reply for you regarding veils.

Quran 36:9
and We have placed a barrier before them and a barrier behind them and covered them ˹all˺ up, so they fail to see ˹the truth˺.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Sri Sravana Ji,

There is no ‘problem’ with the society, in the sense that it is all Maya.

It is very simple. You have two choices in life.

One is to be engaged in Samsara, getting all the ‘satisfaction’ in solving world’s problems, and thinking that one contributed to ‘leaving the world better’ for one’s progeny. But this presupposes that the world can become unipolar, or the Utopian good. But we know that is not possible. Maya is bipolar. No positive without the negative. That is the nature of the material world. This is why when you go to the extreme of something, the opposition to it is clearly visible.

The only way out of this conundrum is to follow the teachings of our scriptures, if you accept the reality of Samsara and the pain it causes.

So then, this is your other option. Our religion, miraculously offers this option, if you choose it. And not only that, the achievement of this end, by the ways (Yogas)) and the means (Sadhanas) will make you a better, fulfilled human being in this life (as attested to numerous beings practicing such things).

It seems to me, living in a world, which depends on a Universe for existence (Sun can change the orbit, Moon can crash in to Earth, and other possible calamities we can not control), it is silly to ‘progress’ the world, without having some reverence to the Almighty.

Fortunately, we have our forefathers, who invented the concept of numbers, let alone other sciences, who thought about these things and left us a legacy.

As my family Guru, the Mahan of Kancheepuram said, “Only Dharma protects’.

Hope this answers.
Dear Shri KRS,

Thanks for your prompt response. Sir I believe there is a misconception regarding the concept of maya. It is believed erroneously that maya divides everything into good and bad or positive and negative. Polarities fundamentally are of two types selfish and altruistic. Contrary to popular belief both have good and bad. Selfishness is not all bad and altruism is not all good.

As mind evolves selfishness begins to embrace others albeit outwardly but it does . Similarly as altruism evolves it begins to be wary of others motives after burning its fingers. Both are actually evolution and still polarities. Ofcourse the ultimate end is both of them meeting and turning truly spiritual.

The goal towards the society should be to lend our hand to let it take that path of evolution. I still cannot come to terms with how silly our pragmatism can be and how we bath in its success. I am also saddened to see the naivete of the few altruists who believe others motives are always good. We can do lot better than both.

That is the point I am trying to make.
 
OP
OP
K

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Shri KRS,

Thanks for your prompt response. Sir I believe there is a misconception regarding the concept of maya. It is believed erroneously that maya divides everything into good and bad or positive and negative. Polarities fundamentally are of two types selfish and altruistic. Contrary to popular belief both have good and bad. Selfishness is not all bad and altruism is not all good.

As mind evolves selfishness begins to embrace others albeit outwardly but it does . Similarly as altruism evolves it begins to be wary of others motives after burning its fingers. Both are actually evolution and still polarities. Ofcourse the ultimate end is both of them meeting and turning truly spiritual.

The goal towards the society should be to lend our hand to let it take that path of evolution. I still cannot come to terms with how silly our pragmatism can be and how we bath in its success. I am also saddened to see the naivete of the few altruists who believe others motives are always good. We can do lot better than both.

That is the point I am trying to make.
Yes, Sir.

This is exactly why I exactly quoted the Kanchi Mahan’s saying in my last post.

’Dharna’ as enunciated by our religion, starts with ‘Swadharma’, fulfilling one’s personal duty based on one’s birth talents, but also fulfilling one’s obligations to wards the society,

Now, why such things are prescribed?

To make it easy to understand the question, ‘Who am I?’ That is all.

A society’s progression is not up to an individual. An individual can only control his/her actions.

Evolution will take place on it’s own accord, and it is not in our hands, as human beings. Social mores are time and culture dependent.
 
OP
OP
K

KRS

Well-known member
Sri Sravana Sir,

Why do you only attribute to Maya the quality of ‘selfishness’ and ‘altruism’?. According to our scriptures, anything with a name and form is ‘Maya’. But, let us understand the ‘name and form’, as we call as as a part of ‘ Saguna’, is also sprang out of ‘Nirguna’, The intermediate is what we call as ‘ Shakthi’ or ‘Maya’.

There are no dIvides.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sir,

I will take the extreme case of an avatar. Why do we need an avatar? To set right what is wrong and reestablish dharma. Now Avatar does mot happen frequently. But God acts through His human agents to make necessary corrections now and then. In the present scenario if an individual cannot do it he can accomplish that with like minded people. We have to believe in the purity of our mind and the divinity within us. Things will spontaneously happen.

To be silent when one's inner self is seething at what is going around is ignoring God's voice. In this world there will be a few more at least who feel the same way and a lot more who will consent.

It is necessary to shed that inertia within us and believe that humans with honest intentions can indeed do it. One will then get the needed divine help to succeed.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Sri Sravana Sir,

Why do you only attribute to Maya the quality of ‘selfishness’ and ‘altruism’?. According to our scriptures, anything with a name and form is ‘Maya’. But, let us understand the ‘name and form’, as we call as as a part of ‘ Saguna’, is also sprang out of ‘Nirguna’, The intermediate is what we call as ‘ Shakthi’ or ‘Maya’.

There are no dIvides.
Dear Sir,

One can separate humans in a number of ways based on attributes. But what I did is fundamental separation I believe. It is at the top of the hierarchy of veils.

Divides cannot be ignored in mundane reality. They are the basis upon which the whole game of the reality is constructed by God.
 

sravna

Well-known member
I think maya works in fundamentally different ways to make these two types evolves. It tricks the selfish by showing the weakness of people and the altruists by showing strengths of people so that they fall for it, go through problems and then learn.
 

Iyest

Active member
We think we make choices. We think we are in control. We think we do everything the body does. We think we make the body move, speak and behave the way it does. It is a cleverly constructed sham! Everything happens of its own accord, including bodily movements. There is thus no such thing as “acting on a decision”. Free will is an illusion. You say that you make a decision, and then act upon it. Consider what actually happens. The action is decided by prarabdha. Whichever way you decide, the outcome of the decision will ultimately be only the destined action and nothing else. Thus the decision does not count at all. So, no action is ever the outcome of man’s decision. We delude ourselves into thinking so. Since knowledge of the future is debarred from man, he cannot possibly know whether actions follow thoughts or whether thoughts simply fall in line before forthcoming actions, like iron filings before a bar magnet, thus creating an illusory cause-consequence relationship between thoughts and actions, whereas, in fact, it might be a consequence- cause relationship.

- Aham Sphurana, page 207
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
We think we make choices. We think we are in control. We think we do everything the body does. We think we make the body move, speak and behave the way it does. It is a cleverly constructed sham! Everything happens of its own accord, including bodily movements. There is thus no such thing as “acting on a decision”. Free will is an illusion. You say that you make a decision, and then act upon it. Consider what actually happens. The action is decided by prarabdha. Whichever way you decide, the outcome of the decision will ultimately be only the destined action and nothing else. Thus the decision does not count at all. So, no action is ever the outcome of man’s decision. We delude ourselves into thinking so. Since knowledge of the future is debarred from man, he cannot possibly know whether actions follow thoughts or whether thoughts simply fall in line before forthcoming actions, like iron filings before a bar magnet, thus creating an illusory cause-consequence relationship between thoughts and actions, whereas, in fact, it might be a consequence- cause relationship.

- Aham Sphurana, page 207
Agreed...but if everything is ONLY prarabdha..then how do we generate karma for future births?

Vartamana Karma( present time karma) generates Agami Karma( future Karma) isnt it?
 

sravna

Well-known member
I do not think free will is total illusion. The more your thoughts are aligned with dharma the more free will you exhibit. Only the adharma is totally controlled by maya. There is a subtlety here. If adharma is totally controlled how can adharmic acts be held responsible? I think the intention matters most. If your thoughts are wicked the acts are made to be wicked by the control of maya. We know the physical reality is more an illusion. So the real adharmic thoughts are sought to be corrected by masterminding the physical events and acts.

At the deepest level though everything is a game of God.

Renuka what do you think?
 

Iyest

Active member
Agreed...but if everything is ONLY prarabdha..then how do we generate karma for future births?

Vartamana Karma( present time karma) generates Agami Karma( future Karma) isnt it

Bhagawan does not need me or anyone to validate his teachings since they stand on their own merit. For the karma issue, he has said to question ‘For whom is the karma?’ Prarabdha is for the body. Are you the body? Enquire ‘Who am I?’

Let me see if I can find suitable passages to elaborate.
 

Iyest

Active member
I do not think free will is total illusion. The more your thoughts are aligned with dharma the more free will you exhibit. Only the adharma is totally controlled by maya. There is a subtlety here. If adharma is totally controlled how can adharmic acts be held responsible? I think the intention matters most. If your thoughts are wicked the acts are made to be wicked by the control of maya. We know the physical reality is more an illusion. So the real adharmic thoughts are sought to be corrected by masterminding the physical events and acts.

At the fundamental level, dharma and adharma as commonly understood are value judgements of the mind (thought). There are no ‘good’ thoughts and ‘bad’ thoughts for the jnani. His mind has been destroyed. If one uses dharma in a different sense (absolute sense) one could say that all actions from a jnani are dharma.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Bhagawan does not need me or anyone to validate his teachings since they stand on their own merit. For the karma issue, he has said to question ‘For whom is the karma?’ Prarabdha is for the body. Are you the body? Enquire ‘Who am I?’

Let me see if I can find suitable passages to elaborate.
Using the word agreed isnt me trying to validate Bhagawan's words..its just a figure of speech.
Kindly dont mistake the usage of the word agreed that I wrote.

Karma is for the body as we understand it to be.
The " atma" is the animating witnessing " entity".
It doesnt " accumulate" karma.

Having said that everything happening is per prarabdha.
So even if a man murders someone its prarabdha of the murderer and the victim.

But as long as we are not awakened to experience the " Kah Aham?" scenario,every action done leaves an imprint which the body would experience in this life or another isnt it?

Anyway ...awaiting the next post.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
I do not think free will is total illusion. The more your thoughts are aligned with dharma the more free will you exhibit. Only the adharma is totally controlled by maya. There is a subtlety here. If adharma is totally controlled how can adharmic acts be held responsible? I think the intention matters most. If your thoughts are wicked the acts are made to be wicked by the control of maya. We know the physical reality is more an illusion. So the real adharmic thoughts are sought to be corrected by masterminding the physical events and acts.

At the deepest level though everything is a game of God.

Renuka what do you think?
I would beg to differ.
The more one is aligned the lesser the free will.
When one is in the state of total alignment, one becomes a conduit and then one realizes that free will was actually an illusion...what we called free will is partly our prarabdha, vartamana karma and unfolding of some sanchita karma.

In total alignment, only the remaining prarabdha would keep us alive but that wont generate vasanas because the Divine Will functions through us.

At the level of alignment one cant plan anything because the Divine planner's plan prevails.

A verse in the Quran states.
" They planned and planned but God is the best of planners"

The esoteric meaning is " the loss of free will and Divine will prevails for His plans are the best for us"
 

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