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Belief in personal God VS Belief in Brahman

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prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
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Dear Shri a-TB,




If the above is what you are referring as contradiction let me try to explain it. There is only one brahman. Saguna brahman is just a projection of nirguna brahman. Nirguna is free of actions and thoughts. It is just the experiencer. It is saguna brahman that is responsible for creation through its thoughts. Using the analogy of Sankara, Saguna brahman is the the snake we see when the reality is rope which is nirguna braman.


A desert does not project the mirage, it is the observed who sees it.
So Nirgun Brahman can not project saguna Brahman on itself, similarly, the mirror does not see the reflection it takes an external observer to see the snake instead of the rope.

So without the observer seeing a non-existent Saguna Brahman, there is only the Brahman free of action.
 

sravna

Well-known member
A desert does not project the mirage, it is the observed who sees it.
So Nirgun Brahman can not project saguna Brahman on itself, similarly, the mirror does not see the reflection it takes an external observer to see the snake instead of the rope.

So without the observer seeing a non-existent Saguna Brahman, there is only the Brahman free of action.

Dear Shri Prasad,

In the analogy of mirror, the mirror is not nirguna brahman, It is maya. saguna brahman is the image and nirguna brahman is the object. Similarly saguna brahman projects the world with the instrument of maya. The images which are countless souls being projected may have their own reality since we do have our reality. But the real observer or witness in this case is saguna brahman.
 

sravna

Well-known member
To clarify, maya itself is projected out as a lower reality and shows nirguna brahman as saguna brahman. Saguna brahman is seen as doing the equivalent of the higher truths of nirguna brahman, such as creation and other activities.
 
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prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
To clarify, maya itself is projected out as a lower reality and shows nirguna brahman as saguna brahman. Saguna brahman is seen as doing the equivalent of the higher truths of nirguna brahman, such as creation and other activities.


Maya was invented as Advaita could not be explained to an average person.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Maya was invented as Advaita could not be explained to an average person.

Dear Shri Prasad,

Where did you get this piece of information.? Can you give me the source? Maya was not invented. I believe which I think is in accordance with advaita that maya has an existence of its own.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
............. it takes an external observer to see the snake instead of the rope.

So without the observer seeing a non-existent Saguna Brahman, there is only the Brahman free of action.

There is no nirguna brahman whatsoever. There is only a brahman with infinite and countless attributes.

A snake is seen in a rope by the mind. For that the mind should have already seen a snake alive and slithering. Without seeing a snake already the mind can not perceive a snake in a rope when it sees a rope. It would perhaps see just a strange thing there in the rope which perhaps looks like a rope!! So snake is real, the rope is real and the mind inside a body is real. Everything is real. Maya is just a convenience created for endless argument leading to Sunya in the end (if it is an end).

Nahi nahi rakshathi dukrinjkarane. Bhajagovindam Bhajagovindam Govindam bhaja mootamathe.

And Govind mentioned here in this line is after all a brahman and not the presidential nominee!!. So called saguna brahman. LOL.

I expect to be banned soon.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
There is no nirguna brahman whatsoever. There is only a brahman with infinite and countless attributes.

A snake is seen in a rope by the mind. For that the mind should have already seen a snake alive and slithering. Without seeing a snake already the mind can not perceive a snake in a rope when it sees a rope. It would perhaps see just a strange thing there in the rope which perhaps looks like a rope!! So snake is real, the rope is real and the mind inside a body is real. Everything is real. Maya is just a convenience created for endless argument leading to Sunya in the end (if it is an end).

Nahi nahi rakshathi dukrinjkarane. Bhajagovindam Bhajagovindam Govindam bhaja mootamathe.

And Govind mentioned here in this line is after all a brahman and not the presidential nominee!!. So called saguna brahman. LOL.

I expect to be banned soon.

Easiest way to solve the problem..no need to talk about Saguna Brahman..Nirguna Brahman..Maya..Advaita..Vishistadvaita..Personal..
Impersonal God etc..

Just recite...La ilaha illallah.
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
Easiest way to solve the problem..no need to talk about Saguna Brahman..Nirguna Brahman..Maya..Advaita..Vishistadvaita..Personal..
Impersonal God etc..

Just recite...La ilaha illallah.

But that would make you a Rasool and it will not be acceptable to the majority. You may end up an infidel.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
I know. But it was said by the respected Rasool. And now u are claiming it. So blasphemy.

Dear Vaagmi Ji...
La ilaha illallah Muhammadun Rasulallah.

Its considered the Kalimah Syahadah...recited by those who surrender to Allah.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Vaagmi ji..

Its like this..

There is no God either than Vishnu and Ramanuja is His Messenger.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear Vaagmi ji..

Its like this..

There is no God either than Vishnu and Ramanuja is His Messenger.

I know it. Okay to make it clear let me explain.

Let us suppose that the statement "there is no God other than Vishnu" was said only by Ramanuja first and Ramanuja claimed that he was the messenger of that Vishnu. Now suppose again that I say "there is no God other than Vishnu". and leaves it there hanging. If I continue with the disclaimer that that was the statement of Ramanuja I would not be committing any mistake. If I leave it hanging there in the air it would mean I calim to become the messenger and so am committing the blasphemy. I will correct myself only by completing with "Ramanuja is his messenger". Your statement was hanging in the air. So blasphemic. LOL.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
I know it. Okay to make it clear let me explain.

Let us suppose that the statement "there is no God other than Vishnu" was said only by Ramanuja first and Ramanuja claimed that he was the messenger of that Vishnu. Now suppose again that I say "there is no God other than Vishnu". and leaves it there hanging. If I continue with the disclaimer that that was the statement of Ramanuja I would not be committing any mistake. If I leave it hanging there in the air it would mean I calim to become the messenger and so am committing the blasphemy. I will correct myself only by completing with "Ramanuja is his messenger". Your statement was hanging in the air. So blasphemic. LOL.

Nothing was hanging.
There are 2 parts of the Kalimah.
Part 1 is There is no God besides Allah.

Part 2 is Muhammad (pbuh)is the messenger of Allah.

Its not hanging to only say the Part 1..its permitted if its not in the context of prayer.
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
Here are my thoughts.

1. Is there a difference in the three primary vedantic approaches..?

As I explained before, I see only a perspective difference. Advaita from infinity, dvaita from finite and visishta-advaita from a third party view.

2. Is mAyA an 'invention' by Shankara to explain Advaita..?

From what I understand, NO. mAyA is in Vedas.

As I wrote Advaita looks from the perspective of 'infinity'. From a vedic understanding Shankara could understand there are three states in which Universe existed. But I see Vedas as pure science and in that also I see that Universe can be seen existing in three states.

From a pure science view, there is only energy in the beginning. In my understanding Shiva is energy, Shakti is momentum.

Post the cosmic event of what is called 'Electroweak symmetry breaking', the Higgs field acquires an expectation value, which enables particles to interact with Higgs field and particles become 'massive'. That is mass manifests after sometime. But what is mass..? Energetic particles move at speed of light. But when they start interacting with Higgs field their movement gets impeded or reduced. This reduced movement due to interaction with Higgs field is what we 'perceive' as 'mass'. This 'mass' is a perception. This 'mass' is mAyA. Vishnu is Higgs field and the resultant perception it gives is 'mAyA', which is mass. This mAyA is in vedas.

Then the particles with mass, because their movements are impeded, start interacting with each other, build basic blocks of matter like atoms, elements, compounds and biological life.

So there are three levels of 'realities' here. A state in which energy only exists. A state in which particles with mass exists. A state in which massive particles combine form matter as we see in the Universe.

There is an analogy for this.

Assume we are sleeping with no thoughts all body at test. This is equivalent to the state of Universe in which only energy exists.

Then we wake up partially, but are in what is called REM sleep state. This is the state in which dreams manifest. Here thoughts exist but they are fleeting. This is similar to the state of Universe in which mass manifests in fundamental particles.

Then we wake up fully. This is the state of Universe, which we see as the reality.

But behind this is reality is the 'mAyA'. Behind the mAyA is yet another state in which only energy exists.

3. Does this mean Advaita is the only right view.? Does this mean Shiva is the supreme God..?

Well Not really.

I did not say Higgs field came later. Higgs field existed along with energy. Probably the spacetime we see came out of this Higgs field. But it acquired a 'vacuum expectation value' or ability to interact with particles and impede them much later. So this does not settle the 'meaningful' debate of, if vishnu is elder/superior or shiva is elder/superior..

The advaitic view is from 'infinity'. It looks down the chain of events that happen and gives us a 'model' of universe from that view.


-TBT
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
TBT in post #115:

Post the cosmic event of what is called 'Electroweak symmetry breaking', the Higgs field acquires an expectation value, which enables particles to interact with Higgs field and particles become 'massive'. That is mass manifests after sometime. But what is mass..? Energetic particles move at speed of light. But when they start interacting with Higgs field their movement gets impeded or reduced. This reduced movement due to interaction with Higgs field is what we 'perceive' as 'mass'. This 'mass' is a perception. This 'mass' is mAyA. Vishnu is Higgs field and the resultant perception it gives is 'mAyA', which is mass. This mAyA is in vedas.

Then the particles with mass, because their movements are impeded, start interacting with each other, build basic blocks of matter like atoms, elements, compounds and biological life.

So there are three levels of 'realities' here. A state in which energy only exists. A state in which particles with mass exists. A state in which massive particles combine form matter as we see in the Universe.

I wish you had gone a little more back in time. Which was the canvass on which all this are viewed?

There is an analogy for this.

Assume we are sleeping with no thoughts all body at test. This is equivalent to the state of Universe in which only energy exists.

Then we wake up partially, but are in what is called REM sleep state. This is the state in which dreams manifest. Here thoughts exist but they are fleeting. This is similar to the state of Universe in which mass manifests in fundamental particles.

Then we wake up fully. This is the state of Universe, which we see as the reality.

For all this to happen I need "me". I have to have "me" sleeping. Wherefrom did this "me" of I come? And that is my question above.

Your conjectures and hypotheses are interesting. Thanks.
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
The sleep and dream is an analogy for the model of Universal evolution that is described in Vedas. This is my understanding. An analogy is just that. Not the real thing. As we deep sleep, REM sleep and then get awake, Universal evolution also happens from energy, mass of fundamental particles and massive structures of Universe.

This happens irrespective of you or me or any matter or being observing it. There is no need for an observer for this evolution to happen.

Observers like you and me come in between and disappear in between. Like a bubble that comes up in water and disappears, we appear and disappear. During this time we try to comprehend what is happening and put forth various models for our appearance and disappearance.

The 'me' that I see in myself is my 'aham-kAra', my internal property that I realize as different from another entity in my interaction with another entity. As I wrote in another blog, that 'me' is not just present in a human being, it is present in animals, plants, bacteria, stone, chemical compounds, in everything. I have an evolved aham-kAra, which I am able to express in variety of ways in my interactions with other entities. Some others like a stone or chemical compound have a subdued aham-kAra.

Even our dead body will have its aham-kAra. Different cells stop working at different times after brain stops functioning (which we call as death now). They have their own aham-kAras.

The 'soul' or 'Atman' we are searching for is not in our thoughts or in what we feel as our 'aham-kAra'. It is the 'virtual' thing that binds this Universal atoms and fields.

We are made of 'real' particles. But even modern quantum physics needs 'virtual' particles for the real particles and fields to bind together and evolve. This virtual thing could be seen as a modelling 'error' or 'gap', but without this virtual thing, Universe cannot be explained.

The 'soul' or 'Atman' is that virtual thing, beyond all the real particles of Universe. That virtual thing is what nasadiya suktam says we may partially know or never know.

-TBT
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
The sleep and dream is an analogy for the model of Universal evolution that is described in Vedas. This is my understanding. An analogy is just that. Not the real thing. As we deep sleep, REM sleep and then get awake, Universal evolution also happens from energy, mass of fundamental particles and massive structures of Universe.

You missed the point I have raised. I am aware it was just an analogy. That is why I went back to your original conjecture from the analogy after using the analogy to tell you my view point. I treated your analogy as just analogy.

This happens irrespective of you or me or any matter or being observing it. There is no need for an observer for this evolution to happen.

Observers like you and me come in between and disappear in between. Like a bubble that comes up in water and disappears, we appear and disappear. During this time we try to comprehend what is happening and put forth various models for our appearance and disappearance.

Again my point has been missed completely. I agree that there need not be an observer at all. And you and I may come and go as several others do. But just even subjectively, even without an observer, there has to be a substrate which supports (or on/in which happens) all the actions that you described. My question was what was that substrate? I called it the canvass. The cosmic/primordial/primeval events which you described must have had a substrate/canvass/space/environment/atmosphere (please choose the appropriate word) to happen and my interest was to know what are your views about that. If it leads to "nothing" then it is akin to nihilism/SunyavAda.

I am interested in knowing your thoughts on this. Thanks.
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
Dear Vaagmiji

I could be still missing the point and whatever I write here may not be the right response for your question. But thanks for that question.

If the substrate/canvass that you are talking about is the 'surface' on which energy moves, then it is spacetime, which I call as Hiranyagarbha. According to standard model, this Hiranyagarbha (spacetime) expanded immediately after Big-Bang in 'cosmic inflation epoch' (analogy is balloon filled with air expanding greatly). This inflated spacetime is the 'Brahma'.

Like the Puranas that say that svayambhu established primordial waters, created the initial seed, entered into it and the seed became the Hiranya-garbha in which Universe evolves, Standard model today says that after Big-Bang energy(may be something more than energy whose nature we don't know today) and spacetime (seed) got established first and then the spacetime expanded greatly, became the 'womb' in which Universal matter evolves.

hiraṇyagarbhaḥ samavartatāgre bhūtasya jātaḥ patirekāsīt (before time of matter/beings existed Lord Hiranyagarbha)
sa dādhāra pṛthvīṃ dhyāmutemāṃ kasmai devāyahaviṣā vidhema (gives, bears all the prthvi, dyaus ; for/to whom we offer the oblations).

This four dimensional Hiranyagarbha or spacetime is the surface that gives and bears the Universe. On it the 'rudras' or 'force-fields' manifest. It is in these rudras or force-fields that energy, mass and particles that make the Universe manifests. It is the interaction of these force-fields filled with energy and mass (impeding motion) that complex matter forms.

The evolution of Universe is a Yajna or sacrifice. One form of matter is sacrificed (offered as oblations, havis) to build more complex forms of matter. All the oblations/offerings in this Yajna are offered to this Hiranyagarbha, the spacetime, as it is what holds all the matter and bears the Yajna.

The Brahma (expanded spacetime) bends to the 'energy' or shiva (and also vishnu or mass) and hence is called 'Ka-ancha'. This is called warping of spacetime, which we perceive as 'gravity'.

What is the nature of this Hiranyagarbha or four-dimensional spacetime..?

From a science view, we don't know much about it except that the three dimensional space and whatever we perceive as time are actually a continuum and are in fact a four dimensional spacetime. We also know that there is Cold Dark Matter in the Universe which is nearly 2/3rd of overall mass of Universe (similar to the Purusha desribed in vedas). In fact I map Purusha to this cold dark matter.

But if my understanding of Vedas and Upanishads and their mappings to science is right, then Brahma bloomed from the navel of Narayana.

Narayana is Maha-Vishnu. Vishnu (Higgs field) and Purusha (Dark matter). Probably there is a Unified field of Higgs and Dark Matter (which is the Naryana) (such theories are being discussed now), during the Big-Bang. Shortly after Big-Bang in which huge energy got released, during the cosmic inflation epoch, the Unified field separated and Higgs field expanded greatly causing the expansion of spacetime. The inflated spacetime (Brahma) is filled with Purusha or dark matter. That's how that Narayana is said to have created the seed and also entered in it making it a womb.

That cosmic inflation could have been driven by Higgs field or a unified field related to Higgs is my supposition from the reading of vedic texts. It is psuedo-science at this point. Whether we believe the Puranas that say Brahma bloomed out of Maha-Vishnu or not, current models indicate that spacetime indeed expanded greatly, shortly after the Big-Bang. May be I am totally wrong.

Purusha, the cold dark matter is the 'bed' on which the Universe evolves according to the vedic texts. Its role is to protect the Yajna or sacrifice or evolution of Universe and its matter.

I can go one more step and propose that Brahma is not four dimensional, but five dimensional. The fifth head of Brahma or fifth dimension is plucked out by expanding energy/Shiva (as kAla Bhairava). Hence fifth dimension remains a shortened dimension causing probably quantum entanglement. Einstein had actually proposed a shortened fifth dimension, but did not work out the mathematics for it.

What is behind this Narayana (Unified field of Dark matter and Higgs) and Shiva (energy) and Brahma (spacetime) is referred to as 'Atma' at several places. I translate Atman as At-manas. Nara are real particles, that are on-shell, that satisfy energy-momentum relationship, that obey the Universal laws that exist today. 'Manas' are virtual particles that are off-the-shell, that do not obey the Universal laws. They are 'virtual' because they are our theoretical models and cannot be proved to exist. But without this virtual particles, our understanding of Universe is not complete. We need them to 'bind' the real particles in our models at different places.

If manas is virtual, At-manas is extremely virtual. From this extremely virtual Atman, it seems that whatever we perceive as shiva, narayana, Hiranyagarbha seems to have come.

Some people call this Atma, Narayana or Maha-Vishnu himself. Some people like to call it Shiva himself. Some people like to call it Shakti. Some people say at all times in Universe it is only force-fields (Rudra) that existed. Hence Atma is an Unified force-field (a Rudra) in which everything is extremely virtual and post Big-Bang it started spewing real particles.

Because it is extremely virtual and its nature not known or can only be partially known, we can identify it with anything that we perceive and we won't be able to fully identify with anything we perceive. The physics of the very early Universe or what was before Big Bang is different from the physics of Universe post the Big-Bang. Hence we may not know what it is for sure or we may get to know only partly.

That's exactly what Nasadiya suktam says.

As far as concept of sunyavada is concerned, science says today, even in complete vacuum exists all the force-fields with some energy and can pop out particles/anti-particles from vacuum. :) So it depends on upto what point you investigate or which way you want to investigate.

-TBT
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear Vaagmiji

I could be still missing the point and whatever I write here may not be the right response for your question. But thanks for that question.

If the substrate/canvass that you are talking about is the 'surface' on which energy moves, then it is spacetime, which I call as Hiranyagarbha. According to standard model, this Hiranyagarbha (spacetime) expanded immediately after Big-Bang in 'cosmic inflation epoch' (analogy is balloon filled with air expanding greatly). This inflated spacetime is the 'Brahma'.

Like the Puranas that say that svayambhu established primordial waters, created the initial seed, entered into it and the seed became the Hiranya-garbha in which Universe evolves, Standard model today says that after Big-Bang energy(may be something more than energy whose nature we don't know today) and spacetime (seed) got established first and then the spacetime expanded greatly, became the 'womb' in which Universal matter evolves.

hiraṇyagarbhaḥ samavartatāgre bhūtasya jātaḥ patirekāsīt (before time of matter/beings existed Lord Hiranyagarbha)
sa dādhāra pṛthvīṃ dhyāmutemāṃ kasmai devāyahaviṣā vidhema (gives, bears all the prthvi, dyaus ; for/to whom we offer the oblations).

This four dimensional Hiranyagarbha or spacetime is the surface that gives and bears the Universe. On it the 'rudras' or 'force-fields' manifest. It is in these rudras or force-fields that energy, mass and particles that make the Universe manifests. It is the interaction of these force-fields filled with energy and mass (impeding motion) that complex matter forms.

The evolution of Universe is a Yajna or sacrifice. One form of matter is sacrificed (offered as oblations, havis) to build more complex forms of matter. All the oblations/offerings in this Yajna are offered to this Hiranyagarbha, the spacetime, as it is what holds all the matter and bears the Yajna.

The Brahma (expanded spacetime) bends to the 'energy' or shiva (and also vishnu or mass) and hence is called 'Ka-ancha'. This is called warping of spacetime, which we perceive as 'gravity'.

What is the nature of this Hiranyagarbha or four-dimensional spacetime..?

From a science view, we don't know much about it except that the three dimensional space and whatever we perceive as time are actually a continuum and are in fact a four dimensional spacetime. We also know that there is Cold Dark Matter in the Universe which is nearly 2/3rd of overall mass of Universe (similar to the Purusha desribed in vedas). In fact I map Purusha to this cold dark matter.

But if my understanding of Vedas and Upanishads and their mappings to science is right, then Brahma bloomed from the navel of Narayana.

Narayana is Maha-Vishnu. Vishnu (Higgs field) and Purusha (Dark matter). Probably there is a Unified field of Higgs and Dark Matter (which is the Naryana) (such theories are being discussed now), during the Big-Bang. Shortly after Big-Bang in which huge energy got released, during the cosmic inflation epoch, the Unified field separated and Higgs field expanded greatly causing the expansion of spacetime. The inflated spacetime (Brahma) is filled with Purusha or dark matter. That's how that Narayana is said to have created the seed and also entered in it making it a womb.

That cosmic inflation could have been driven by Higgs field or a unified field related to Higgs is my supposition from the reading of vedic texts. It is psuedo-science at this point. Whether we believe the Puranas that say Brahma bloomed out of Maha-Vishnu or not, current models indicate that spacetime indeed expanded greatly, shortly after the Big-Bang. May be I am totally wrong.

Purusha, the cold dark matter is the 'bed' on which the Universe evolves according to the vedic texts. Its role is to protect the Yajna or sacrifice or evolution of Universe and its matter.

I can go one more step and propose that Brahma is not four dimensional, but five dimensional. The fifth head of Brahma or fifth dimension is plucked out by expanding energy/Shiva (as kAla Bhairava). Hence fifth dimension remains a shortened dimension causing probably quantum entanglement. Einstein had actually proposed a shortened fifth dimension, but did not work out the mathematics for it.

What is behind this Narayana (Unified field of Dark matter and Higgs) and Shiva (energy) and Brahma (spacetime) is referred to as 'Atma' at several places. I translate Atman as At-manas. Nara are real particles, that are on-shell, that satisfy energy-momentum relationship, that obey the Universal laws that exist today. 'Manas' are virtual particles that are off-the-shell, that do not obey the Universal laws. They are 'virtual' because they are our theoretical models and cannot be proved to exist. But without this virtual particles, our understanding of Universe is not complete. We need them to 'bind' the real particles in our models at different places.

If manas is virtual, At-manas is extremely virtual. From this extremely virtual Atman, it seems that whatever we perceive as shiva, narayana, Hiranyagarbha seems to have come.

Some people call this Atma, Narayana or Maha-Vishnu himself. Some people like to call it Shiva himself. Some people like to call it Shakti. Some people say at all times in Universe it is only force-fields (Rudra) that existed. Hence Atma is an Unified force-field (a Rudra) in which everything is extremely virtual and post Big-Bang it started spewing real particles.

Because it is extremely virtual and its nature not known or can only be partially known, we can identify it with anything that we perceive and we won't be able to fully identify with anything we perceive. The physics of the very early Universe or what was before Big Bang is different from the physics of Universe post the Big-Bang. Hence we may not know what it is for sure or we may get to know only partly.

That's exactly what Nasadiya suktam says.

As far as concept of sunyavada is concerned, science says today, even in complete vacuum exists all the force-fields with some energy and can pop out particles/anti-particles from vacuum. :) So it depends on upto what point you investigate or which way you want to investigate.

-TBT

Dear TBT,

Thank you. You have answered my question. Your write up is thought provoking. Let me ruminate. Thanks.
 
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