Belief in personal God VS Belief in Brahman

[thebigthinkg]

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In your opinion how would explain the term Avatar of Lord Vishnu?

Rama and Krishna are worshiped as Avatars of Lord Vishnu.

The geeta does say that not to be attached to flowerly words of Vedas that promise higher heavens and the Gorvardhana episode did reflect Krishna's stance on ritual worship of Indra.

BTW how did the Brahmana Varna acquire the knowledge?

Surely now you might need to touch upon the origin of the Vedas.

Would like your input here.


To be accuarte..no one Varna really leads society solo...all 4 varnas are dependent and interdependent on each other.

That is how even the Supreme Person is viewed.

So who is the leader?

No one in specific but all...the Varna system is best viewed as a functioning unit rather than making any one specific Varna as leader.

This is how Varna system gets misunderstood as being hierarchical in nature.

A better term to describe Sudra Varna would be Man power unit.

There are three questions here:
1. Are Avatars and messiahs same..? What are Vishnu Avatars..? Krishna says don't listen to flowery vedic words (he does not like worship of Indra) and hence he is a messiah..
2. How did Brahmana varna acquire knoweldge..?
3. Are you saying Varna system is hierarchical..?

Let me deal them one by one:

3. Am I saying Varna system is hierarchical..?

Varna dharma says there are four varnas (professions) in society for it to evolve sustainably. These are 1. Brahmanas/Knowledge providers (who gleam knowledge from various sources and put it to use for society, for eg. scientists, teachers etc). 2. Kshatriyas/Service providers (who use the knowledge provided by Brahmanas and offer services to society, for eg. soldiers, doctors etc). 3. Vaishyas /Material providers (who provide goods/materials to society, for eg. farmers, traders, businessmen) 4. Shudras/Cheap/Slave/unskilled labor.

Whoever follows the 'dvija' (the learning system) become one of the three varnas. Those who don't become zudras.

An evolving society is led by knowledge providers as knowledge evolution is what leads a society to progress. Using this knowledge, kshatriyas provide best of services and Vaizyas provide best of the goods. Brahamanas use these services and goods for developing more knowledge. This is a cycle.

Hence Brahmanas are said to lead the society. More correctly, it is the knowledge of the Brahmanas that has to lead the society.

A sanatana dharmic society that follows varna asrama dharma will have balance of all these people, lead by the knowledge providers. 'Lead by knowledge providers' do not mean hierarchy. It should be read as 'lead by the knowledge provided by knowledge providers'.

Varna system is hierarchical if we take hierarchy as one contributing to another in a cycle. It is not heirarchical, if we take hierarchy as one ruling over another.

Unfortunately most of us are zudras (cheap labor) today. That's why in kali yuga zudras are said to rule.

2. From where will Brahmanas gleam knowledge..?

They may get it from outside observations (Rsi) like scientists. They may get it from their own inside inspirations (Muni) like researchers. They may get it from interpreting translating Vedic revelations (Acharyas/teachers).

-TBT

 

[renuka]

There are three questions here:
1. Are Avatars and messiahs same..? What are Vishnu Avatars..?
2. How did Brahmana varna acquire knoweldge..?
3. Are you saying Varna system is hierarchical..?

Let me deal them one by one:

3. Am I saying Varna system is hierarchical..?

Varna dharma says there are four varnas (professions) in society for it to evolve sustainably. These are 1. Brahmanas/Knowledge providers (who gleam knowledge from various sources and put it to use for society, for eg. scientists, teachers etc). 2. Kshatriyas/Service providers (who use the knowledge provided by Brahmanas and offer services to society, for eg. soldiers, doctors etc). 3. Vaishyas /Material providers (who provide goods/materials to society, for eg. farmers, traders, businessmen) 4. Shudras/Cheap/Slave/unskilled labor.

Whoever follows the 'dvija' (the learning system) become one of the three varnas. Those who don't become zudras.

An evolving society is led by knowledge providers as knowledge evolution is what leads a society to progress. Using this knowledge, kshatriyas provide best of services and Vaizyas provide best of the goods. Brahamanas use these services and goods for developing more knowledge. This is a cycle.

Hence Brahmanas are said to lead the society. More correctly, it is the knowledge of the Brahmanas that has to lead the society.

A sanatana dharmic society that follows varna asrama dharma will have balance of all these people, lead by the knowledge providers. 'Lead by knowledge providers' do not mean hierarchy. It should be read as 'lead by the knowledge provided by knowledge providers'.

Varna system is hierarchical if we take hierarchy as one contributing to another in a cycle. It is not heirarchical, if we take hierarchy as one ruling over another.

Unfortunately most of us are zudras (cheap labor) today. That's why in kali yuga zudras are said to rule.

2. From where will Brahmanas gleam knowledge..?

They may get it from outside observations (Rsi) like scientists. They may get it from their own inside inspirations (Muni) like researchers. They may get it from interpreting translating Vedic revelations (Acharyas/teachers).

-TBT

All these would certainly apply to entire humanity of the world becos the same system too makes other countries function


But would we use the same terminology of Varna on another society for eg China?

But still one major question is still not answered..if Varna system is a functional unit then why certain groups were not allowed to learn some aspects of religion.

Other societies too have their intellectuals..rulers..coperate sector and man power unit BUT none of these 4 are restricted when it comes to acquiring deeper understanding of their religion.

Could you shed some light on this difference?

 

[thebigthinkg]

All these would certainly apply to entire humanity of the world becos the same system too makes other countries function


But would we use the same terminology of Varna on another society for eg China?

But still one major question is still not answered..if Varna system is a functional unit then why certain groups were not allowed to learn some aspects of religion.

Other societies too have their intellectuals..rulers..coperate sector and man power unit BUT none of these 4 are restricted when it comes to acquiring deeper understanding of their religion.

Could you shed some light on this difference?

Dharma are universal fixed laws that we will be made to follow in all conditions. We have to realize the dharma and align our living ways with it. Dharma won't change. Look at Varna Dharma that says there are these three professions, knowledge providers (brahmanas), service providers (kshatriyas), material providers (goods providers), which require learning (dvija) and unskilled labor (shudra) which does not require learning.

This is the dharma. It can't be changed. This is how our societies will operate always. You can't find any profession outside of these four definitions at any point of time. Try finding one.

Realising this dharma, we need to encourage our society to be organized in such a way that these are balanced. But take the current situation. Those nations that have a large number of knowledge providers, Material providers and service providers are progressing fast. They are utilizing the zudras of other nations, while trying to reach a good balance of other three within themselves.

India has a large number of zudra population (cheap labor) because we have not invested in education, not invested in continuous updation of skills for services, not invested in agriculture and hardware industries for material production. We invested in services, but the danger is there is only a thin line between kshatriyas (service providers) and sudras (cheap labor).

Historically many kshatriya castes tend to become sudras. You can see it clearly in our history. The reason is this. Services when become abundant or not required become cheap labor over a period of time. When sword is not needed, you can use it only to dig earth and be labor.

Now all this applies to all nations. This is dharma. It can never change.

The Varna system to keep the right balance of all three varnas and always minimize zudras can be implemented in many ways. The best way is the system of 'dvija' or method of structured formal learning. Communities learn, train formally in a structured manner. They get their basic skills and develop further their domains. Each of the varna can spawn thousands of professions and professional groups.

Over a period the professional groups became jAtis. jAti system is also a system to implement varna dharma. In jAti system the learning becomes inside the family and 'dvija' (structured learning) is lost. Slowly kshatriyas, vaisyas moved out of dvija system. Brahmanas also moved out of dvija system practising it as a remnant of the past.

Then the divisions between jAtis, rivalry between professional groups started.

When varna system gets implemented through jAtis, then each professional group tries to retain/hide its competence to hike up its value. They stop others from learning their secrets. Those who went out of the dvija system initially, the zudras, the cheap labor totally got seggregated out of the society.

varna dharma has nothing to do with jAtis. varna dharma is just saying that we need to have a balance of these three professions in a society and should not digress to a sudra (cheap labor) dominated society, in which case we will never be able to survive and evolve.

-TBT

 

[renuka]

Unskilled labour that does not require learning?

This is a inaccurate view.

Every job requires learning..knowledge.
The problem is we confuse literacy rate with learning.

To do plumbing..one needs knowledge on how to unclogged a drainage system.
To be a barber one needs to know how to use the scissors.
To burn a body in the crematorium one needs to know to maintain the right temperature for the flames.

There isnt anything in this world that does not require learning.

Wisdom too has nothing got to do with even holding a pen.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Unskilled labour that does not require learning?

This is a inaccurate view.

Every job requires learning..knowledge.
The problem is we confuse literacy rate with learning.

To do plumbing..one needs knowledge on how to unclogged a drainage system.
To be a barber one needs to know how to use the scissors.
To burn a body in the crematorium one needs to know to maintain the right temperature for the flames.

There isnt anything in this world that does not require learning.

Wisdom too has nothing got to do with even holding a pen.

The learning I talked about is structured learning (which was the intent of dvija system).

As I wrote, when a labor is in demand, it is treated as a service. When not in demand it becomes cheap labor. Plumbing, electrician, barbers, vettiyans, drivers are services. They are services in demand. But let's say due to technology development plumbing becomes a simple stuff with little or no learning at all, something that anybody can do, if they just spend their time. Then it becomes cheap labor. Nothing to learn or anybody can learn quick. It just requires a human body with little mind to co-ordinate it.

There are umpteen number of un-skilled labor jobs (like carrying loads, cleaning etc). Any service can become cheap labor. Many services of the past have become cheap labor. That's why we see so many kshatriyas becoming zudras in Indian history.

For eg. look at BPO services. With more automation, they become too simple to be done without much learning and fall into cheap labor. Look at all the clerical services. With more computing, they become too simple to be done without much learning (or the skill level required goes down considerably).

Even services like that of doctor can become a cheap labor with technological advancement. Let's say we have a machine in which we send humans into and it finds everything about that human, then the first level doctors (MBBS) would become cheap labor. Anyone who can operate the machine is enough. We will need only specialists who can do surgery or concentrate on specific organs..

-TBT

 

[renuka]

The learning I talked about is structured learning (which was the intent of dvija system).

As I wrote, when a labor is in demand, it is treated as a service. When not in demand it becomes cheap labor. Plumbing, electrician, barbers, vettiyans, drivers are services. They are services in demand. But let's say due to technology development plumbing becomes a simple stuff with little or no learning at all, something that anybody can do, if they just spend their time. Then it becomes cheap labor. Nothing to learn or anybody can learn quick. It just requires a human body with little mind to co-ordinate it.

There are umpteen number of un-skilled labor jobs (like carrying loads, cleaning etc). Any service can become cheap labor. Many services of the past have become cheap labor. That's why we see so many kshatriyas becoming zudras in Indian history.

For eg. look at BPO services. With more automation, they become too simple to be done without much learning and fall into cheap labor. Look at all the clerical services. With more computing, they become too simple to be done without much learning (or the skill level required goes down considerably).

Even services like that of doctor can become a cheap labor with technological advancement. Let's say we have a machine in which we send humans into and it finds everything about that human, then the first level doctors (MBBS) would become cheap labor. Anyone who can operate the machine is enough. We will need only specialists who can do surgery or concentrate on specific organs..

-TBT

Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.

We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.

 

[sravna]

Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.

We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.

Renuka,

I agree . Every skill has to be valued. Human abilities are complementary.

 

[Raji Ram]

............ All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body. ......

Dear Renu,

True! But a cobbler needs to learn just from his parents but a surgeon needs to go and study in a medical college!

That IS the difference.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.

We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.

I think you are confusing it by mapping old castes to existing professions.

Look at human history. Skills that were hitherto valued most become un-needed over time and people with such skills would be relegated to be 'bio-mass' or just labor. This is NOT to devalue them, de-humanize them. This is to understand how society works. You have to differentiate between the two.

No profession or skill in this world can escape this becoming obsolete. Look around. So many professions and skills have become obsolete in the last few hundred years. So many are becoming obsolete in front of your eyes. People with such skills are left with only their body to contribute to the society. This is the fact.

When a society is made of such zudras who primarily contribute only labor, they are made into slave labor (call it cheap labor) due to demand-supply gap and that society does not prosper.

The other side is also true.

Barbers were zudras once, as a village required just one barber, while families of barbers lived in a village. But today barbers are Kshatriyas (service providers) as the demand for them increases, as they provide more skilled services.

Plumbing today is a kshatriya profession in many parts of the world. Doctors are today kshatriya profession. But as I wrote, it can change. Technological advancements will obsolete the skill-set you have and leave you as a zudra with no skill except your body to contribute.

Again, I am talking about professions, not jAtis.

Understanding it and planning the society properly is varna dharma. This is not regurgitation of some old stuff. This is how societies work always. You can't change it. Hence it is dharma.

-TBT

 

[renuka]

If one is employed one is a Shudra..be it university proff or CEO of an IT sector..Employee.

Self employed is Vaishya...bussiness men..self employed docs..self employed lawyers..self employed anyone.

Nowadays few countries have full powered Kings eg Saudi Arabia..hence Kshatriyas are in Middle East.

Brahmins are intellectuals that are not employed but protected by the King.

Hence only in Middle East we see such a scenario where an Ulama is protected by the King.

Therefore Brahmins also only in Middle East.
Ya A-Brahman!

Yes..I am also talking about profession.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

How about learned sAsthrigaLs who are self employed? In olden days, brahmins were paid by the kings
for protecting them. Now, sAstrigaLs get paid by others, for their services! opcorn:

So, are these sAsthrigaLs brahmins or vaishyAs?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

How about learned sAsthrigaLs who are self employed? In olden days, brahmins were paid by the kings
for protecting them. Now, sAstrigaLs get paid by others, for their services! opcorn:

So, are these sAsthrigaLs brahmins or vaishyAs?

If there is no King to protect them and to look into their welfare then they can be considered to be sole proprieter..that would only mean Vaishya sector.

Dear RR ji..my answer might not go down to well with everyone in Forum.
Btw Kings never gave Brahmins a salary..Kings provided everything for them and considered that a Danam

Disclaimer..The answer is purely on technical grounds of the employement sector and should be only viewed from the employement context.

 

[thebigthinkg]

If one is employed one is a Shudra..be it university proff or CEO of an IT sector..Employee.

Self employed is Vaishya...bussiness men..self employed docs..self employed lawyers..self employed anyone.

Nowadays few countries have full powered Kings eg Saudi Arabia..hence Kshatriyas are in Middle East.

Brahmins are intellectuals that are not employed but protected by the King.

Hence only in Middle East we see such a scenario where an Ulama is protected by the King.

Therefore Brahmins also only in Middle East.
Ya A-Brahman!

Yes..I am also talking about profession.

Not sure what you are talking about. I am talking about three professions/varnas that will always exist in a society Knowledge providers (brahmanas), service providers (kshatriyas), material providers (vaisyas) and cheap (unskilled or obsolete skilled) labor.

There is no king in this. That's your imagination.

Knowledge providers are scientists, researchers, teachers (i gave examples of Rsi, muni, Acharya). They may be self-employed or work for someone else.

Material providers are farmers, traders, industrialists. They create employment. They may employ kshatriyas (service providers with specialized skills) or Zudras (just labor with low skills) or Brahmanas (scientists, researchers to create new technologies).

Service providers are doctors, engineers, barbers, drivers, plumbers, electricians.. They may be employed or self-employed.

Zudras are labor who have either obsoleted skills or skills that are extremely undervalued (huge supply) in a society.

This is the definition I talked about.

These four will always remain in any society at all times. The exact professional groups inside every varna will change always. But the four varnas in itself remains always.

So why confuse or get confused..

-TBT

 

[renuka]

Not sure what you are talking about. I am talking about three professions/varnas that will always exist in a society Knowledge providers (brahmanas), service providers (kshatriyas), material providers (vaisyas) and cheap (unskilled or obsolete skilled) labor.

There is no king in this. That's your imagination.

Knowledge providers are scientists, researchers, teachers (i gave examples of Rsi, muni, Acharya). They are also employed.

Material providers are farmers, traders, industrialists. They create employment. They may employ kshatriyas (service providers with specialized skills) or Zudras (just labor with low skills).

Service providers are doctors, engineers, barbers, drivers, plumbers, electricians.. They may be employed or self-employed.

Zudras are labor who have either obsoleted skills or skills that are extremely undervalued (huge supply) in a society.

This is the definition I talked about.

These four will always remain in any society at all times.

So why confuse..?

-TBT

Kya confusion infusion yaar?

Kings do exists ..not merely constituitional monarchy..full fledge one still exist and they run their government with aid of ministers..eg King Salman.
He welcomed President Trump to Saudi too.

Toh voh Kshatriya hain na?

 

[thebigthinkg]

Kya confusion infusion yaar?

Kings do exists ..not merely constituitional monarchy..full fledge one still exist and they run their government with aid of ministers..eg King Salman.
He welcomed President Trump to Saudi too.

Toh voh Kshatriya hain na?

I talked about varna dharma, my understanding of it and how it is heirarchical (if we consider one feeding another as hierarchical) and not hierarchical (all are needed to be in balance).

Wanted to underscore that Zudra is about obsoleted skilled labor or low skill labor, where labor is critical and skills take a back seat (that's the difference with kshatriya where skill takes a front seat).

Wanted to say there is a constant migration between zudras and kshatriyas as technologies change and evolve (to answer your point).

Also wanted to underscore that Varna is not about being self-employed or employed with others. Also wanted to underscore that varna is not about protected by king or on your own.

Unable to understand the relevance of Trump, Saudi Arabian king etc here in this discussion

-TBT

 

[prasad1]

Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.


We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.

Well said!!!!!!

 

[thebigthinkg]

Well said!!!!!!

Repeating it..

Look at human history. Skills that were hitherto valued most become un-needed over time and people with such skills would be relegated to be 'bio-mass' or just labor. This is NOT to devalue them, de-humanize them. This is to understand how society works. You have to differentiate between the two.

No profession or skill in this world can escape this becoming obsolete. Look around. So many professions and skills have become obsolete in the last few hundred years. So many are becoming obsolete in front of your eyes. People with such skills are left with only their body to contribute to the society. This is the fact.

When a society is made of such zudras who primarily contribute only labor, they are made into slave labor (call it cheap labor) due to demand-supply gap and that society does not prosper.

The other side is also true.

Barbers were zudras once, as a village required just one barber, while families of barbers lived in a village. But today barbers are Kshatriyas (service providers) as the demand for them increases, as they provide more skilled services.

Plumbing today is a kshatriya profession in many parts of the world. Doctors are today kshatriya profession. But as I wrote, it can change. Technological advancements will obsolete the skill-set you have and leave you as a zudra with no skill except your body to contribute.

Again, I am talking about professions, not jAtis.

Understanding it and planning the society properly is varna dharma. This is not regurgitation of some old stuff. This is how societies work always. You can't change it. Hence it is dharma.

-TBT

 

[renuka]

Repeating it..

Look at human history. Skills that were hitherto valued most become un-needed over time and people with such skills would be relegated to be 'bio-mass' or just labor. This is NOT to devalue them, de-humanize them. This is to understand how society works. You have to differentiate between the two.

No profession or skill in this world can escape this becoming obsolete. Look around. So many professions and skills have become obsolete in the last few hundred years. So many are becoming obsolete in front of your eyes. People with such skills are left with only their body to contribute to the society. This is the fact.

When a society is made of such zudras who primarily contribute only labor, they are made into slave labor (call it cheap labor) due to demand-supply gap and that society does not prosper.

The other side is also true.

Barbers were zudras once, as a village required just one barber, while families of barbers lived in a village. But today barbers are Kshatriyas (service providers) as the demand for them increases, as they provide more skilled services.

Plumbing today is a kshatriya profession in many parts of the world. Doctors are today kshatriya profession. But as I wrote, it can change. Technological advancements will obsolete the skill-set you have and leave you as a zudra with no skill except your body to contribute.

Again, I am talking about professions, not jAtis.

Understanding it and planning the society properly is varna dharma. This is not regurgitation of some old stuff. This is how societies work always. You can't change it. Hence it is dharma.

-TBT

Every other Varna in your post seems to be changing depending on the economy and demand..for eg Kshatriya to Shudra..Shudra to Kshatriya..Vaishya to Shudra and vice versa.

But why no mention of Brahmana Varna?
Has this Varna changed into any other Varna becos of economic demand reasons?

 

[a-TB]

Hi a-TB,

Though addressed to shri zebra16, let me add my opinion here.

The intelligence that you see is a result of random trial and error experiments that had struck a balance somewhere (amongst the forces of nature). How many trillion years passed for this to happen, we do not know. So it is not an assembled intelligence that is handcrafted by one entity (creator).

Forces combine and produce results (living, non-living) and some have a higher relative state of balance.

Hi Mr auh:

The highlighted items must be due to some basic intelligence that cannot be distributed because they all work together. Randomness is intelligence, hard to make random happen I have heard. Evolution is not stuck by repetitions like computer gets into a infinite loop but huge variations are seen. That is intelligence.

Even if many entities are there, still they all have to be coordinated by one who must have 'caused?' those entities.

Consider making your argument differently if you care to..What you have stated does not seem to hold your case..

 

[a-TB]

No problem. Good you got confused. That will set you thinking, the best way to understand higher knowledge if you are seeking it.

That is an easy escape, Mr Sravana.

Meant your statement did not make sense.. Your statement was

"Dear Shri a-TB,

Knowledge of brahman is said to be the highest knowledge. So it is apt that it is so difficult to grasp that knowledge. Brahman can be nirguna or saguna. The former is a timeless existence and its existence is just experiencing bliss and beyond thoughts and actions. The latter exists in the realm of thoughts and actions and is responsible for creation by willing it."


The above is a bunch of terms hard to understand etc. The problem is one entity called Brahman has diametrically opposite capabilities. That cannot add up. I cannot be both blind and see. I cannot be in a totally dark room and still have light.

Your words convey two Brahmans that is wrong. If it is one, then its nature has contradictory qualities rolled into one .. That is also wrong.

Care to explain this contradiction ...?