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Ayodhya, Kashmir: Twin triumphs for Modi and Hindu nationalists?

prasad1

Well-known member
Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Wednesday laid the foundation for a temple at a flashpoint holy site exactly a year after imposing direct rule on Muslim-majority Kashmir -- twin triumphs for his Hindu nationalist government.

The site of Ayodhya and divided Kashmir have been two of the most divisive communal issues of the past 30 years in India, and Modi has attempted to draw a line under both in his second term.

For his fans both steps confirm Modi as a decisive, visionary leader, and India's most important in decades.


His critics see him as remoulding the country as a Hindu nation, at the expense of India's 200 million Muslims, and taking it in authoritarian direction.

"Modi has certainly been India's most transformative leader in recent memory," Micheal Kugelman from the Wilson Center told AFP.

"This has made him wildly popular, but also highly controversial and quite divisive."

The holy city of Ayodhya in northern India has long been a fault line in India's religious divisions, and has been the spark for some of its worst sectarian violence.

Devout Hindus believe that Lord Ram, the warrior god, was born there some 7,000 years ago but that a mosque was constructed on top of his birthplace in the 16th century.

In the 1980s a Hindu movement began to agitate for the mosque to be removed and in 1992 a mob demolished it with shovels, pickaxes and their bare hands.

This triggered religious riots that killed 2,000 people, most of them Muslims.

Last year a new law made it easier for millions of illegal immigrants from three neighbouring countries to get citizenship, but not if they are Muslims.

A "citizenship list" in Assam state left off millions who were unable to prove they were Indian, many of them Muslims, a process many fear the BJP wants to roll out nationwide.

More may be in the pipeline.

On the BJP's wishlist is a uniform civil code, doing away with personal laws for religious minorities in areas such as marriage, family and death -- a policy aimed primarily at Muslims.

"Clearly, it's full speed ahead with the Hindu nationalist agenda," Kugelman said.

"The government knows it has some major challenges with the economy and the pandemic. By focusing on the social agenda... it can distract its rank and file and shore up political support."

 

usaiyer

Member
The special dispensation for Kashmir was an anomaly and needed a correction which is a"fait accompli" now under Shri Modi's leadership.The world view of Kashmir will also change and will be advantage India for the future generation. Kashmir also can look forward to an integrated development.
Ramjanma Bhumi restoration to Hindu fold after nearly 20 years of struggle outside and inside the
portals of justice can be seen as another part of Ramayana story in as much as the struggle was
similar that of Lord Rama to restore Sita back to his fold.A new chapter of Hindu rejuvenation is
in the offing with people making visits to Ram Temple in Ayodhya just as for varanasi or Badrinath etc
Ram rajya can bloom if we are lucky and with right kind of leadership and future will be bright for India.
Sriram,Jayram,Jaya jaya Ram.
 

kanva123

Member
Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Wednesday laid the foundation for a temple at a flashpoint holy site exactly a year after imposing direct rule on Muslim-majority Kashmir -- twin triumphs for his Hindu nationalist government.

The site of Ayodhya and divided Kashmir have been two of the most divisive communal issues of the past 30 years in India, and Modi has attempted to draw a line under both in his second term.

For his fans both steps confirm Modi as a decisive, visionary leader, and India's most important in decades.


His critics see him as remoulding the country as a Hindu nation, at the expense of India's 200 million Muslims, and taking it in authoritarian direction.

"Modi has certainly been India's most transformative leader in recent memory," Micheal Kugelman from the Wilson Center told AFP.

"This has made him wildly popular, but also highly controversial and quite divisive."

The holy city of Ayodhya in northern India has long been a fault line in India's religious divisions, and has been the spark for some of its worst sectarian violence.

Devout Hindus believe that Lord Ram, the warrior god, was born there some 7,000 years ago but that a mosque was constructed on top of his birthplace in the 16th century.

In the 1980s a Hindu movement began to agitate for the mosque to be removed and in 1992 a mob demolished it with shovels, pickaxes and their bare hands.

This triggered religious riots that killed 2,000 people, most of them Muslims.

Last year a new law made it easier for millions of illegal immigrants from three neighbouring countries to get citizenship, but not if they are Muslims.

A "citizenship list" in Assam state left off millions who were unable to prove they were Indian, many of them Muslims, a process many fear the BJP wants to roll out nationwide.

More may be in the pipeline.

On the BJP's wishlist is a uniform civil code, doing away with personal laws for religious minorities in areas such as marriage, family and death -- a policy aimed primarily at Muslims.

"Clearly, it's full speed ahead with the Hindu nationalist agenda," Kugelman said.

"The government knows it has some major challenges with the economy and the pandemic. By focusing on the social agenda... it can distract its rank and file and shore up political support."

These actions were long overdue to repair the fault lines developed during 1948-1950...
 

Iyest

Active member
The special dispensation for Kashmir was an anomaly and needed a correction which is a"fait accompli" now under Shri Modi's leadership.The world view of Kashmir will also change and will be advantage India for the future generation. Kashmir also can look forward to an integrated development.
Ramjanma Bhumi restoration to Hindu fold after nearly 20 years of struggle outside and inside the
portals of justice can be seen as another part of Ramayana story in as much as the struggle was
similar that of Lord Rama to restore Sita back to his fold.A new chapter of Hindu rejuvenation is
in the offing with people making visits to Ram Temple in Ayodhya just as for varanasi or Badrinath etc
Ram rajya can bloom if we are lucky and with right kind of leadership and future will be bright for India.
Sriram,Jayram,Jaya jaya Ram.
Best to ignore western drivel and their puerile ideas that they are ever ready to impose on the 'third world'. Left to the west, India must remain 'secular' by their definition even after Independence. This, according to them, means the majority Hindus who have been ruled over for 600 years by the Muslims and the British must still continue to gulp all their insults and injuries to Hindu places of worship and yield to minorities in all social and religious matters. Non Hindus would hold a de facto veto in order for the west to grant a good 'conduct certificate' in return to India. Essentially Independence would remain only on paper as far as Hindus are concerned. Such callousness shows utter disregard for the Hindu psyche that had been deeply hurt for centuries and was finally looking forward to freedom in 1947. Unfortunately, a highly westernized Nehru family that ruled India carried on with the western agenda and ideology for six decades even after Independence. Finally Modi arrived. For all his other faults, Hindus are able to see him as their ruler who is willing to listen and understand their social and religious concerns. A temple for Ram in Ayodhya is symbolic of this fundamental change. It is the beginning of true independence for Hindus after more than six centuries of subjugation by invaders.
 

usaiyer

Member
It is true that Hindu Indian should be assured of his basic rights for worship.profession,settle anywhere
in India ,own property etc ,hold public office etc in his motherland that is India He has no pan-world
links like the Muslims or christians. The Ram temple is perhaps symbolic of this fundamental change
and is therefore a welcome one.
As Hindus we believe in" live" and" let live" policy as a community.Majority of the muslims and also the
christians ,if they could fall in line with our policy ,a harmonious India could work for the welfare
of all its citizens. How to bring about this legally and socially is something that needs everybody's attention. Minority status to non-Hindus and look upon them as vote banks for political gains may
call for new line of thinking to sustain the harmony process. There should be
meeting of minds among political leaders on this sensitive issue.We believe in Democracy and the
dictum of Lincoln"All men are created equal"
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Your statement should be modified. The constitution does provide for this but lately, it has been denied to some section.

In Ahemdabad No Muslim is allowed to buy any property outside of the so-called "Muslim" locality. That is wrong, Then again a non-Jain can not buy property in a Jain colony.

There is much discrimination in India, that Indians have accepted as normal.


It is true that Every Indian should be assured of his basic rights for worship.profession,settle anywhere
in India ,own property etc ,hold public office etc in his motherland that is India There should be
meeting of minds among political leaders on this sensitive issue.We believe in Democracy and the
dictum of Lincoln"All men are created equal"
 

ekaputra

Member
In Ahemdabad No Muslim is allowed to buy any property outside of the so-called "Muslim" locality. That is wrong,
I cannot believe that Hindus who have read History of Islamic rule in India can still bleed their hearts for Mohammedans.

I can feel the anger welling up in me whenever I see a grand mansion with some name like "Rahmat Manzil" or even a swank automobile with some "Masha Allah" on the front glass for I immediately think of my people in Pakistan, the minority Hindus, Sikhs and possibly Budhdhists and Jains in Pakistan who in contrast are living in constant fear of their ladies being abducted and molested and converted. So many Hindus in Pakistan have been forced to to embrace Islam as alternative to embracing unemployment and starvation. And these Mohammedans in India were first among equal citizens during the Congress rule and are now very angry with the BJP and their supporters that now they are just on par with Hindus and Sikhs and people of other faiths.

Plague is preferable to Mohammedans and I cannot help feeling that I am forced to suffer these people in my country because of a man called Mohandas Karmchand Gandhi who has been called the father of the nation.

That we are paying for this man's veiled authoritarianism and obstinacy bears testimony to the saying:
"The sins of the fathers are visited on the sons"
 
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prasad1

Well-known member
I cannot believe that Hindus who have read History of Islamic rule in India can still bleed their hearts for Mohammedans.

I can feel the anger welling up in me whenever I see a grand mansion with some name like "Rahmat Manzil" or even a swank automobile with some "Masha Allah" on the front glass for I immediately think of my people in Pakistan, the minority Hindus, Sikhs and possibly Budhdhists and Jains in Pakistan who in contrast are living in constant fear of their ladies being abducted and molested and converted. So many Hindus in Pakistan have been forced to to embrace Islam as alternative to embracing unemployment and starvation. And these Mohammedans in India were first among equal citizens during the Congress rule and are now very angry with the BJP and their supporters that now they are just on par with Hindus and Sikhs and people of other faiths.

Plague is preferable to Mohammedans and I cannot help feeling that I am forced to suffer these people in my country because of a man called Mohandas Karmchand Gandhi who has been called the father of the nation.

That we are paying for this man's veiled authoritarianism and obstinacy bears testimony to the saying:
"The sins of the fathers are visited on the sons"

Are you for Real?

Is there no humanity? Do you see the world only through religious lenses?
In the history of the world, some people were exploited by someone else. That is the reality.
When King Ashoke went to war with Kalinga ordinary people suffered. I suppose both sides were Hindus.
When King Ashoke persecuted Jains in his kingdom, I did not see you crying?

You and your anger is so wrong on many fronts, you have islamophobia, and you need professional help.
you quoted the most illogical statement in:
"The sins of the fathers are visited on the sons"

If you are really a Hindu, or follower of Sanatana Dharma you know that Karma theory says that every action has a Karma attached with it, Karma Phala accrues to the doer. You can not transfer karma Phala to others.
You show your ignorance.

Be a Human being first.
 

usaiyer

Member
There is much discrimination in India that Hindus have accepted as normal.
The Ramajanma Bhumi episode is just a step in the direction for correction and restore them their legitimate rights.
What is found in constitution is what the founders wanted to work for the entire people of the
country ,perhaps an egalitarian society ,but the ground reality is different,.A christian officer can be inducted to look after the affairs
of a Hindu temple by the government,but vice versa is a taboo.It is all one way traffic.Unlike in
yester years Christian educational institutions have started to woo mostly their community applicants
to the exclusions of the majorly community.The average Muslim may be mixing with other communities in day to life as of necessity ,but they are still a closed community with strong communal
binding which perhaps a few want to preserve.In those days in the sixties,a walk thru the streets dominated by Muslims ,by other community members was a rarity.
The harmony and human side factors are strong,no doubt,but what and where is the role religion
or government in this sensitive ,but nevertheless important process?
 

prasad1

Well-known member
There is much discrimination in India that Hindus have accepted as normal.
The Ramajanma Bhumi episode is just a step in the direction for correction and restore them their legitimate rights.
What is found in constitution is what the founders wanted to work for the entire people of the
country ,perhaps an egalitarian society ,but the ground reality is different,.A christian officer can be inducted to look after the affairs
of a Hindu temple by the government,but vice versa is a taboo.It is all one way traffic.Unlike in
yester years Christian educational institutions have started to woo mostly their community applicants
to the exclusions of the majorly community.The average Muslim may be mixing with other communities in day to life as of necessity ,but they are still a closed community with strong communal
binding which perhaps a few want to preserve.In those days in the sixties,a walk thru the streets dominated by Muslims ,by other community members was a rarity.
The harmony and human side factors are strong,no doubt,but what and where is the role religion
or government in this sensitive ,but nevertheless important process?
I do agree that there is discrimination. We should try to eliminate discrimination. Will we ever be free of discrimination? I doubt it, but we must work towards it, as a country.

Two wrongs do not make it right. Rectify the wrongs, or at least try it.
By subjugating or suppressing the minority we will just alienate them, and it will not be good for the country.
If we purge the present minority and wipe them off, we will create a new minority. It may be Dalits, Arya Samjis, or Tamil Speakers.
So better watch your back.
 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
you quoted the most illogical statement in:
"The sins of the fathers are visited on the sons(#6)

Then what is the logic of continuing the Reservations based on caste ? What is the logic of left liberals? They are against reservation based on income criteria!
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Remember that many Hindus live and thrive in Non-Hindu countries. They might be related to you. I presume (then again I might be wrong) you do not want their blood on your hand.

In a civilized society, The majority always cares about humanity. The women's voting rights bill was passed by men. majority of Whites freed the slaves. Unless the majority accepts humanity, we will only have genocide.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Hagia Sophia or Ram Mandir...does all these really make a difference?

a Virus could shut down places of worship yet we humans want to build a home for God.

I think its time we realize God does not really need any structure.
 

krish44

Well-known member
These attempts at maginalising the minorities and making them unequal and unwanted in their country of birth will backfire and lead only to more violence.Who gains in all this.A few polticians with eye on their vote banks.
What we are having is only a hindu backlash who felt aggrieved by glaring appeasement of minorities
We think that rathyatra and laying foundation of ram temple at ayodhya will restore hurt hindu sentiment.
Things will not end here .Now polticians feeling en ouaged will shift focus to kashi and mathura.More
pain for all is on the cards.When shall we forget all this and concentrate on problems of hunger, unemployment equality of womenfolk and such issues
It appears we will not see a peaceful india in our lifetime.
 

ekaputra

Member
If the country had been partitioned properly in the name of religion (and there were many in the Congress who wanted all Mohammedans safely transported to Pakistan and all Hindus, Sikhs, Budhdhists and Jains brought back safely to India with Parsis and Christians being allowed to opt) then I would fervently favour fair and adequate representation for all communities (including Parsis and Christians) in all important spheres.

When some nun was abused in MP by Hindutva activists I was deeply incensed - so also when Staines and his sons were burnt to death in Orissa. I have heard Christian preachers criticize almost everything that is alien to their faith, particularly Hindu forms of worship, but I do feel that the civil thing would be to hold peaceful protests before the church reminding them not to poison people's minds (especially children who do not have the maturity of mind) with ideas not suitable for a multireligious society. Vandalising their place of worship as Hindutva activists did in Rajkot only brings disgrace to our religion. After all, the churchgoers are hardly influenced by their sermons and there is no need to hurt their religious sentiments to make them see the others' point of view.

I have read that Kulothunga Chozhan persecuted Jains and Vaishnavaites and I loathe him as a filthy bigot, and I am not Vaishnavaite . Probably "agnostic" would describe me best, though I do offer a silent prayer whenever I pass a temple (even a tribal/ village deity for I live in a village some distance from Chennai) to allow for the possibility of the existence of a superpower. I am not aware that Emperor Ashoka persecuted Jains - this has been suppressed in the history that I read in school - now I see Ashoka as only a lesser evil compared to Kulothungan.

A popular religious leader and speaker Kovai Ayyoob said that destruction of the Babri Masjid was a terrible crime because it was a place of worship and therefore sacred - but he endorsed the destruction of temples on the grounds that idol worship is not sanctioned in many of our religious scriptures. Is our religion not composite having fused many diverse faiths which sanctioned idol worship? Yet, another popular leader Jainulabdeen (Tamilnadu Thowheedh Jamaat) when he was taken by surprise on the question, he said that there was nothing wrong in the Mohammedan teaching that captive women (of other faiths) could be used by their men. And this (abuse of captive women) has been practised on the Yazidi women by the ISIS and they have justified their atrocities as being permitted by Islam - the ISIS are not from Mars - some of them are from India and our neighbouring countries and if the country had not been partitioned -they would be Indian Mohammedans. And all this in the 21st century!

From a population of around 9% they have increased their percentage to 15-16% (or more?) while in neighbouring Pakistan, Hindus have been reduced from over 20% to less than 2%. Some two years back a church (not VHP/ RSS) in Kerala raised warning bells about the threat of Mohammedan population in the state overtaking the Hindu population there and the very real danger of Islamic fundamentalism taking strong roots there (these were fears expressed by the church). We talk about intelligence failure on the LOC and intelligence failure on the LAC and not reading Chinese expansionism. Not reading Mohammedan expansionist plans in our country and their working towards the goal of Ghazwa-e-Hind will be the collective intelligence failure of humane Hindus.

I never wanted to mention this but as to this homily "Be a human being first" - I am donating at least 15-20% of my annual savings to charitable organisations including institutions providing free medical care and also serving handicapped people (including blind and leprosy afflicted), helpless elders and poor and orphan children and also funds for families of martyred soldiers and now most recently for poor people who have been robbed of their livelihood due to Covid-19. I am therefore not disturbed about being labelled an inhuman being or even an evil being. I am at peace with myself with my values and finally that is what matters.

My religious lenses are reserved only for Mohammedans!

At times it is more important to be homo sapiens rather than a humane human being!
 
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sankarcs

Member
Your statement should be modified. The constitution does provide for this but lately, it has been denied to some section.

In Ahemdabad No Muslim is allowed to buy any property outside of the so-called "Muslim" locality. That is wrong, Then again a non-Jain can not buy property in a Jain colony.

There is much discrimination in India, that Indians have accepted as normal.
Public road is common to all. Will you allow others cars parked in front of your house/compound ?
Will you allow rickshaw drivien food stalls in front of your house on the public road ? But roadside foodshops are plenty in every area. Why, even a garbage collection box, will you allow infront of your house
If someone tries, your first question would be " when plenty of area available in that street, why you are comming here Go anywhere else except my place ".
 

sankarcs

Member
Hagia Sophia or Ram Mandir...does all these really make a difference?

a Virus could shut down places of worship yet we humans want to build a home for God.

I think its time we realize God does not really need any structure.
Very Good statement "God does not really need any structure".
But people need a common place and exchange good wishes, unite to do good things to the society.
Due to corona, students are asked to stay in home and attend online classes. Previously correspondence courses were also there. Same syllabus same faculties Then why school buildings are needed ?
 

ekaputra

Member
If two mad men are at each other's throats, will you try to separate them or give them a sermon expounding peace even while they continue their murderous assaults on each other?

I also feel it's madness to fight in the name of religion but it is greater madness not to acknowledge the reality of communal tensions and riots and killings.

Both Gandhi and Nehru (the founding fathers) were seized with this greater madness and would not hear of forcibly uprooting families from India to Pakistan and vice versa though they were fully aware of the deep rooted hatred between Hindus and Mohammedans. By allowing their ideals to influence political decisions they knowingly created a volcano that would erupt from time to time. Probably this communal lava has claimed more lives than Vesuvius and Etna and all other dreaded volcanoes of the world put together and the volcano continues to be active!

We Indians are paying for their (founding fathers') Nelson eye see no evil attitude and it is in this context that I most illogically used the quote from the bible:
The sins of the fathers (Gandhi) are visited upon the sons (citizens of India Today)

I had failed to answer this point (most illogical statement) in my previous post - I am doing it now.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Very Good statement "God does not really need any structure".
But people need a common place and exchange good wishes, unite to do good things to the society.
Due to corona, students are asked to stay in home and attend online classes. Previously correspondence courses were also there. Same syllabus same faculties Then why school buildings are needed ?
Humans need not be Gods advocate.
 

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