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Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?

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prasad1

Well-known member
[video=youtube;P7Xgc4ljHKM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=P7Xgc4ljHKM[/video]
The public image of the Brahmins, for instance, is that of an affluent, pampered class. But is it so today?


Doctors in arms


There are 50 Sulabh Shauchalayas (public toilets) in Delhi; all of them are cleaned and looked after by Brahmins (this very welcome public institution was started by a Brahmin). A far cry from the elitist image that Brahmins have!


There are five to six Brahmins manning each Shauchalaya. They came to Delhi eight to ten years back looking for a source of income, as they were a minority in most of their villages, where Dalits are in majority (60 per cent to 65 per cent). In most villages in UP and Bihar, Dalits have a union which helps them secure jobs in villages.

Anti-Brahminism originated in, and still prospers in anti-Hindu circles. It is particularly welcome among Marxists, missionaries, Muslims, separatists and Christian-backed Dalit movements of different hues. When they attack Brahmins, their target is unmistakably Hinduism.


So the question has to be asked: are the Brahmins (and other upper castes) of yesterday becoming the Dalits of today?

India_Abroad
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Nothing wrong in cleaning toilets - what the hell ?, arent those who were doing it not humans !!. Gosh, the same people who look down upon this , go to USA/other white countries & fight with each other to clean the toilets, become a waiter, etc... since the Whites do it there.

Please respect everyone & their profession/work. Some people in this forum go to great lengths & cry about political correctness when incompetent leadership is talked in the context of US fiscal cliff because of rubbish affirmative action - LOL !!, but have NO qualms to talk about how Brahmins have become Dalits of today because some of them are involved in cleaning toilets !! These brahmins & the dalits are doing honest work & lets praise them for the work.
 

sankara_sharmah

Active member
The public image of the Brahmins, for instance, is that of an affluent, pampered class. But is it so today?

Doctors in arms

There are 50 Sulabh Shauchalayas (public toilets) in Delhi; all of them are cleaned and looked after by Brahmins (this very welcome public institution was started by a Brahmin). A far cry from the elitist image that Brahmins have!

There are five to six Brahmins manning each Shauchalaya. They came to Delhi eight to ten years back looking for a source of income, as they were a minority in most of their villages, where Dalits are in majority (60 per cent to 65 per cent). In most villages in UP and Bihar, Dalits have a union which helps them secure jobs in villages.
Anti-Brahminism originated in, and still prospers in anti-Hindu circles. It is particularly welcome among Marxists, missionaries, Muslims, separatists and Christian-backed Dalit movements of different hues. When they attack Brahmins, their target is unmistakably Hinduism.

So the question has to be asked: are the Brahmins (and other upper castes) of yesterday becoming the Dalits of today?
India_Abroad
Prasad,

This is a very old article written in 2006.

Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?

This has been discussed time and again in this forum.

I am not able to locate all of them.

But this was the first one.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/199-brahmins-dalits-today-francis-gautier.html

This was the time when Mayavati in U.P had won the elections with the support of the Brahmins and other forward castes. The brahmin Dalit combination makes sense in U.P.

This article is timed against that Unity being achieved.

I had posted my opinion way back in 2006 in Rediff.com
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Prasad,

Francois Gautier is a known "hindutva" spokesman and the said article had an aim to sow seeds of discontent among brahmins and dalits in UP, mainly. So, it is foolish to learn global lessons from such article/s.

Why should brahmins become dalits if they clean toilets? Does a Dalit become a brahmin if, say, he becomes a school teacher, Munsiff, Judge, Doctor etc.? Secondly, I have seen (some decades ago, not recently) that the brahmins of UP were generally poor and there were some railway porters, people who cleaned tables in the hotels, etc. Unlike we tabras, the north brahmins had changed their outlook on lives possibly as a result of the Muslim rule for long periods of time. The feeling of "Brahmin superiority" which most southern brahmins have, is generally absent in the brahmins of UP and Assam with whom I had a chance to move.
 

sankara_sharmah

Active member
Francois Gautier held an exhibition of research manuscripts from the Aurangazeb era highlighting his destruction of Hindu temples. It was attacked by some Muslims and the exhibition was banned.

The exhibition was of no historical value since all these facts are history.
But why rake this up now? How does it benefit India or Indians?

It only provoked the Muslims and aggravated the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.


Best to keep away from such so called do-gooders with their own agenda which is hidden.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
Brahmins are worse than Dalits, have no doubts!
The reason ...???
A Brahmin girl will happily marry a well placed dalit
but she will shun like a leper a poor Brahmin!
 

sarang

Well-known member
1.The true history is not known to the majority of hindu populations - especially students and middle class public. No student of history studies this in his curriculum.
2. There are enough JNU historians who misrepresent the history in newspaper articles and in tv debates, many a time patted by the moderator.
3. Indian history congress is also very restrictive and does not accept or publish papers on these subjects.
4. Everybody has an agenda. If his agenda is to reveal hidden history or the hidden activities of present day secularists, why such a violent action by the karunanidhi government - use police to destroy the pictures and arrest the ladies manning the exhibition. Karunanidhi was clever to use police to do the damage as such an act by the muslims could have created a law and order problem. Jayalaitha must have learnt from this.


The exhibition was of no historical value since all these facts are history.
But why rake this up now? How does it benefit India or Indians?

It only provoked the Muslims and aggravated the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.

Best to keep away from such so called do-gooders with their own agenda which is hidden.
 

suraju06

Well-known member
Are brahmins the dalits of today? The question does not make sense. Dalits as well as brahmins are exploited, hated, ostracised and marginalised today by the middle castes. That is the fact. The arrogant, economically and socially well off middle castes with a lot of political and muscle power are unable to live in peace with dalits at one of the caste spectrum and the brahmins at the other end of the caste spectrum. This is the truth. So why should brahmins be called the dalits of today when both are in an unenviable situation. In the rural India these middle castes own all the factors of production viz. land, capital and labour(slaves). In urban India too the middle castes are the owners of Industries, trade and generally every thing in the economy. If a contractor wants to bid for a tender for a major work it is enough if he has the right connections through his caste outfit at the right places. He will be given the contract somehow. From panchayat to state infrastructure projects every where this is the situation. In this scheme of things dalits find a place as labourers and brahmins find a place as clerks and supervisors. The real power and money always lies with the powerful middle castes. When election comes they contribute liberally to their casteist candidates and they win. Dalit and brahmin voters become suckers. So the question needs redrafting.

Cheers.
 

P.J.

Well-known member
This is because we have been seeing this since we are young that only Dalits do all sorts of dirty jobs and we are not able to compromise our mind to see Brahmins doing this job;

In US Many Mexican women do the cleaning jobs in homes including Toilets once a month; no one views them with disrespect; as rightly said in post no 2 where jaykay sir has written ' the same people "same people who look down upon this , go to USA/other white countries & fight with each other to clean the toilets, become a waiter, etc... since the Whites do it there"

In US ,School and college students work in WALMART in their spare time to earn extra money, and in India it is unthinkable.


 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
i am in support SS, that any honest work, there is dignity of labour.

also, i dont understand, why we are getting worked up, over UP brahmins' earning a honest wage, doing things that their ancestors shunned.

i have a cousin in nyc who is a thattaan - has a jewellery shop, went to india to learn goldsmithing and does handsomely. in india, many of us would not even touch the thattaans, but here it is gentrified as a jeweller.

I can see the frustrations at the inability of our boys to find brides within our caste. But that is what happens if you are wrapped up in your own prejudices. Why don’t they openly advice and seek suitable brides with qualities compatible with theirs – for example vegetarianism or religiosity.

Both of these traits cut across castes. Maybe many tambrams are eating non veg, but then there are equal or more of NBs who are vegetarians and are more religious than us.

Give it a chance, and not only it may not be all that bad, but it will probably be a roaring success. If the relations do not intervene and poison the minds.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
I do not understand why this subject crops up time and again. What is degrading in cleaning toilets? Why should cleaning toilets be reserved for dalits alone? This practice of division of labour based on caste might have had its relevance in the past, but not now. Many times I have cleaned the Toilets in our house. Taking up the profession of cleaning public toilets should be left to the individual's need of money and opportunity. So long an individual pursues an honest profession to earn money it has dignity.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 

sankara_sharmah

Active member
1.The true history is not known to the majority of Hindu populations - especially students and middle class public. No student of history studies this in his curriculum.
2. There are enough JNU historians who misrepresent the history in newspaper articles and in tv debates, many a time patted by the moderator.
3. Indian history congress is also very restrictive and does not accept or publish papers on these subjects.
4. Everybody has an agenda. If his agenda is to reveal hidden history or the hidden activities of present day secularists, why such a violent action by the karunanidhi government - use police to destroy the pictures and arrest the ladies manning the exhibition. Karunanidhi was clever to use police to do the damage as such an act by the Muslims could have created a law and order problem. Jayalaitha must have learnt from this.

Sarang,
If You look at the historians after independence they were mostly left leaning. But there were historians in the south also like K.A. Neelakanda Sasthiri. But he specialized in South Indian history.

The strangest part of the history of India is the total omission of South India. South India did not exist for them. Even today it does not. Because of the Tamils, Chera, Chola, Pandiya are mentioned. But again here the historians of Madras presidency who were all Tamils totally neglected anything other then Tamil Nadu.

The greatest South Indian Dynasty were the Satavahanas, Rashtrakutas, Chalukyas and the Vijayanagaram empires. None of the Chera, Chola, Pandiyas reached the size of these empires because of the incessant fighting among themselves.

Satavahana dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rashtrakuta Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chalukya dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Tamils think of only Chera. Chloa , Pandiyas. Who indoctrinated us?

History has many unpalatable facts. All Tamil Brahmins are very fond of the song Vathapi Ganapathim Baje. What is the history behind Vathapi Ganapathi? Narasimha Pallava burned and destroyed Vathaapi, the capital of Pulikesin the Second a great King who had earlier defeated the great Harsha Vardhana. Narasimha Pallva destroyed the temples and brought the Ganapathi Vigraha to Tamil Nadu. The Chola kings destroyed countless Durga temples in Cahlukya country and brought the Durga idols and placed them in some corner in the Tamil Nadu temples, where they were not even installed properly. Still these destroyers of Hindu temples are great.

Pulikesin the second was one of the greatest Kings South India had seen. In every respect he was superior to Narasimha Pallava who was a king of a small Kingdom. But Narasimha Pallava is considered great because the historians in Madras Presidency who were all Tamils glorified him. Our literary figures glorified him.

It is not the secularists who have distorted history. It is the regional chauvinists who have distorted history and continue doing so.

Though Kerala as a state came into existence only in 1956, a Kerala politician talks about hundreds of years of friendship between Tamil Nadu and Kerala. And the Bhuddi Jeevis of Kerala accept it.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
I do not understand why this subject crops up time and again. What is degrading in cleaning toilets? Why should cleaning toilets be reserved for dalits alone? This practice of division of labour based on caste might have had its relevance in the past, but not now. Many times I have cleaned the Toilets in our house. Taking up the profession of cleaning public toilets should be left to the individual's need of money and opportunity. So long an individual pursues an honest profession to earn money it has dignity.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Brahmanyan,

Ours was a nuclear family when I grew up and my mother always cleaned the toilets, even though we had a maid to do our vessels and sweep the floor. In the caste hierarchy of those days in madras, there used be a special lady, who came in for a few minutes in neighborhood houses, with her thodappam, or chool as mom would say, rub a few times on the toilet basin, and leave by the same way she came, ie, back door.

Though mom used to say it aloud many a times, the significance of it was lost on me personally for a long time, till my twenties, when I came to Canada, and my sensitivities of the absurdities of our caste system, I came to somewhat understand.

It goes without saying, missus and self, clean the washrooms, in our household, since our marriage. And encourage our children, to leave the toilet, using a brush if needed, spic and span clean, as they would like it to be.

The only time it was an issue at my mom’s, was when one of my dad’s siblings came, and in the usual indian fashion, made a mass, and did not flush, even though we had a good operating flush at that time. Also, it was my introduction, to the concept, ‘as long as I find it clean it is ok, but it is also ok to leave a messy toilet, for others to clean.’
 

Govinda

New member
Dear Prasad,

Francois Gautier is a known "hindutva" spokesman and the said article had an aim to sow seeds of discontent among brahmins and dalits in UP, mainly. So, it is foolish to learn global lessons from such article/s.

Why should brahmins become dalits if they clean toilets? Does a Dalit become a brahmin if, say, he becomes a school teacher, Munsiff, Judge, Doctor etc.? Secondly, I have seen (some decades ago, not recently) that the brahmins of UP were generally poor and there were some railway porters, people who cleaned tables in the hotels, etc. Unlike we tabras, the north brahmins had changed their outlook on lives possibly as a result of the Muslim rule for long periods of time. The feeling of "Brahmin superiority" which most southern brahmins have, is generally absent in the brahmins of UP and Assam with whom I had a chance to move.

In another thread ('Pati Vrtham'), you guys debated that 'Emotional Chastity' shares next major role with 'Physical chastity'. then, how can 'emotional chastity' be compromised in regards to the Brahma-jnAnam/yogam? Sweeping places, cleaning tables (even echhal in hotels) may be o.k too. But, how about the un-pleasant toilet-cleaning, that will have an indelible mark every-other time?

Acc. to shAstrAs, the toilets should be away from living, farming and auspicious places, one shouldn't look at his own dumps. Oops! They should prepare their own composts. One shouldn't talk about such topics during meals. With East India Company, may be the jhAlrAs (elites) forgot their (deerga-darshi) shAstrAs either for slavery or out-of-fear or they became numb after many suppressions.

Plus, India is in dire needs of hygiene and clean-up, I think we all should 'Immediately' volunteer educating and purifying India!. Else, we will face something like Europe's 1300's Black Death - Plague and epidemic soon !! [we never had one in our long history of our Brahminical rule!]
 
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suraju06

Well-known member
Dignity of labour is not equal to dignity of hard and unpleasant labour . There is nothing casteist about the toilet cleaning. It is just the underlying economic status which determines who does what. A labourer toiling in the hot sun on the road side throughout a day in building a road gets at the end of the day just Rs.600 where as an IT professional who sits before his computer in Air conditioned comfortable ambiance and works at his own pace gets 6000 per day plus perks. If there is any dignity to the labour and the labourer the compensation should be the reverse. That is not what we see. Willy nilly we give respect to the labourer depending on the kind of labour he does and the kind of compensation he gets. All talk about dignity of labour is so much of waste of time. Let each one of us collect and throw into the dustbin our excreta every time we go to the toilet so that our concern for dignity of labour will be truly taken care of. As long as we have this system of flushing the waste down the municipal drainage lines some where some one will certainly be dealing with it physically and that should offend our sense of fairplay and concern for dignity of labour.

Cheers.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
I do not have a servant and do all the work

with my own hands.. at my age and health conditions.

Not that i cannot afford a servant.

I do not want to depend unnecessarily on anyone.

I do not have the time to waste in supervising a servant

nor do I have the time to wait for her uncertain arrival.

Doing all the chores keeps me busy and healthy

since I get some exercise out of them.

Doing the work on a daily basis is very easy.

Doing it once-in-a-blue moon is very tough.

I have seen how much the ladies get upset

when the servant does not turn up for work.

They plod along with a long drawn angry face

as if they carry the whole world on their heads!

I make my own dresses, blouses, skirts etc.

My husband irons his own clothes.

We are really living a simple and self dependent Vaanaprastha life.

For me no entertainment other than reading, writing and singing.
 
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prasad1

prasad1

Well-known member
Dignity of labour is not equal to dignity of hard and unpleasant labour . There is nothing casteist about the toilet cleaning. It is just the underlying economic status which determines who does what. A labourer toiling in the hot sun on the road side throughout a day in building a road gets at the end of the day just Rs.600 where as an IT professional who sits before his computer in Air conditioned comfortable ambiance and works at his own pace gets 6000 per day plus perks. If there is any dignity to the labour and the labourer the compensation should be the reverse. That is not what we see. Willy nilly we give respect to the labourer depending on the kind of labour he does and the kind of compensation he gets. All talk about dignity of labour is so much of waste of time. Let each one of us collect and throw into the dustbin our excreta every time we go to the toilet so that our concern for dignity of labour will be truly taken care of. As long as we have this system of flushing the waste down the municipal drainage lines some where some one will certainly be dealing with it physically and that should offend our sense of fairplay and concern for dignity of labour.

Cheers.

Sir this is a new perspective on compensation.
I am interested to know how you propose to value any kind of labor that is equitable and just?
Let us say we reduce every labor to an hourly wage (it will never happen), as an exercise.
Let us say I want to freshen up my yard.
Hourly wage rate:
Unskilled gardner -
Skilled horticulturist -
Landscape designer -
landscape contractor -

If everybody is paid the same wage rate that may be fairplay in some sense, but is it tenable.
In my case we do not have any body to clean our waste in our homes. It does go to municipal facility and we pay for it. The municipality has sanitation worker, who have a decent paying jobs. End of their day they come and socialize with others in the society.
So there is dignity of labor in the eyes of society.

On the other hand the drug dealer or a prostitute may be looked down.

I am interested to know your view.
 

suraju06

Well-known member
Dear Prasad,

If everybody is paid the same wage rate that may be fairplay in some sense, but is it tenable. In my case we do not have any body to clean our waste in our homes. It does go to municipal facility and we pay for it. The municipality has sanitation worker, who have a decent paying jobs. End of their day they come and socialize with others in the society.
So there is dignity of labor in the eyes of society.

What is ideal is not always practically possible. My pointing out this was only to tell people here that too much talk about dignity of labor will be only an alphabet soup without flavor. "Each contributes according to his ability and each draws according to his need" is an ideal utopian concept. It may not work practically. If effort estimation is done properly and compensation is determined on that basis the sanitary worker will get more than the Chief Engineer, public health Engineering Dept. But that will not be practical. This brings us round again to the basic question as to what is dignity of labor and what is it determinant. We consider dignity on the basis of factors other than effort involved in labour. That is all what I want to say.

Cheers
 
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prasad1

prasad1

Well-known member
Dear Prasad,



What is ideal is not always practically possible. My pointing out this was only to tell people here that too much talk about dignity of labor will be only an alphabet soup without flavor. "Each contributes according to his ability and each draws according to his need" is an ideal utopian concept. It may not work practically. If effort estimation is done properly and compensation is determined on that basis the sanitary worker will get more than the Chief Engineer, public health Engineering Dept. But that will not be practical. This brings us round again to the basic question as to what is dignity of labor and what is it determinant. We consider dignity on the basis of factors other than effort involved in labour. That is all what I want to say.

Cheers
Dignity of labor is in the eyes of society and in the eyes of the people performing it, and that is what counts. I do not think we can quantify it, you can pay a lot of money, but the person may not be respected.
I appreciate you talking about your idea.
 

guruvayurappan

Well-known member
dear VR !
well said and a lot of benefit in doing our the house keeping works on our own way.nowadays many are talking about vaanaprastha life and you also not missed the opportunity to make a point about it
guruvayurappan
 

guruvayurappan

Well-known member
post 14#
dear sir !
we indians follow/act in different way while in our country and foreign land .we are ready to any job for the salary purpose and not ready to perform the same in our own house.we may say the thottiwoman is like your mother since she is cleaning the toilet like mother is looking after the kid cleaniness. but are we give the minimum kind words to them ?
guruvayurappan
 
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sarang

Well-known member
Cleaning the toilet is not an issue even though many domestic servants are reluctant to do that.

What is important and to be addressed immediately is the manual removal of human waste from railway station tracks, and cleaning and carrying the waste as a head load in villages which still have the dry type toilets.

Lalu yadhav promised to eliminate manual scavenging in railways within one year. So far only about 250 carriages have been fitted with chemical toilets.

Cleaning our home toilets is not an issue at all. It has nothing to do with dalits. Even dalits do practice untouchability against the particular castes.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
My sons had been trained on these lines
(of dignity of labor and self dependency) and
that we have to do our chores ourselves.
That attitude has helped them settle down in places where
domestic maid is either not available or not affordable or both.
 
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