Anti India legislation in progress in US Congress now

[tks]

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My children do voluntary work now and then with a Human Rights Organization in USA that is devoted to exposing violence against Hindus worldwide. They provide detailed report to UN and world leaders with verifiable facts yearly after doing detailed research

It is called Hindu American Foundation (HAF).

I received an email about a recent event that I am sharing following my intro.

Also elsewhere I posted an address of Rajiv Malhotra (in NJ) who dedicates his resources and personal time to funding research to squash myths and negative propaganda about Hindu Identity, Hindus and India.

Wrong information over time can spell disaster for India and People of Indian Origin living outside India in my view. Rajiv Malhotra makes an excellent case in the series of books he is publishing starting with the book titled 'Breaking India'. Many of the myths about caste, race etc are exposed.

While India has to overcome the cancer of corruption we do not have issues with religious freedom. Yet such issues are manufactured and asserted as truths by repetition. There is a bill in progress in US Congress now.

If you live in the USA (even as Green card holder) or a citizen of USA you may be interested to find out more. Let me share what I have.

India does not have a powerful lobby in the USA. Only individual actions are really possible to make a difference from what I have witnessed.

Inaction will - over time - lead to harm to all those bearing the tag Indian (even in hyphenated form).


===================================================Note from HAF ==========================
Pro-Islamist Group Hires Lobbyist to Push Resolution Slamming India | Hindu American Foundation (HAF)

Your Call Can Counter Lobbying Efforts: H.Res 417 is Anti-India and Anti-Hindu December 4, 2013 Namaste HAF supporters, U.S. Congressmen Joe Pitts (R-PA) and Keith Ellison (D-MN) are at it again. They've introduced another anti-India and anti-Hindu piece of legislation in Congress -- House Resolution 417 (H. Res. 417). Supporters of this legislation have hired a lobbying firm to encourage Congressmen to support it. We need YOU to counter their efforts by calling your Representative TODAY. We have till Friday 5:00pm to make a lasting impact. HAF has been personally reaching out hundreds of Congressmen. But Congressmen want to hear from their constituents - meaning YOU. What makes H. Res. 417 flawed? H. Res. 417 : Blames only Hindu nationalism for communal violence and ignores the fact that 80% of attacks in India in 2012 were carried out by the Indian Mujahideen, with much of the remaining 20% carried out by Maoist terrorists; Fails to mention the attacks on Akshardham, Bodh Gaya, and others in India as well as the communally charged public statements by Islamist leader Akbaruddin Owaisi, Andhra Pradesh MLA, in 2013 against Hindu deities and practitioners; Calls for the creation of religious minority courts to conduct trials and appeals - a suggestion that neither Congressmen has offered to 1) countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Malaysia, where religious minorities face serious repression and; 2) the U.S., where courts, like in India, are secular in nature; Ignores India's unprecedented religious accommodations for minorities, and instead calls for the repeal of "anti-conversion" laws while failing to mention the detrimental impact on social harmony caused by predatory proselytization and coerced conversions primarily carried out by U.S. based missionary outfits; Disregards the findings of the Indian Supreme Court's Special Investigative Team (SIT) absolving Modi of complicity in the 2002 Gujarat riots and omits the findings of the SIT which uncovered that some human rights activists deliberately falsified evidence and concocted macabre incidents of violence. What should you say? Click here to find your Representative's contact information. Call only your Representative's Washington, D.C. office, NOT your Senators. There are 29 Representatives currently supporting this resolution. Scroll to the bottom to see if your representative has signed and follow the first script. If your representative is not on the list, follow the second script. If your Representative is on this list, please use the following script: Hello my name is <YOUR NAME>, and I am a constituent of Representative <Rep's NAME>. I, along with many members of the local Indian American community, am extremely upset that my Representative co-sponsored H. Res 417 - a resolution that is highly critical of India's pluralistic ethos and independent judiciary, and undermines US-India relations. As a constituent, I am asking that the Congressman rescind his/her co-sponsorship. I would like to email your office a letter from the Hindu American Foundation that explains the community's concerns in detail. Can you please provide me with the email address of the appropriate staff member? If your Representative hasn't co-sponsored the resolution, please use the following script: Hello my name is <YOUR NAME>, and I am a constituent of Representative <Rep's NAME>. I am asking my Representative not to co-sponsor House Resolution 417. While it praises India initial, it quickly becomes critical of India's pluralistic ethos and independent judiciary, and it undermines US-India relations. As Hindu Americans, we are appalled that this inaccurate and flawed legislation was even introduced. I would like to email your office a letter from the Hindu American Foundation that explains the community's concerns in detail. Can you please provide me with the email address of the appropriate staff member? Once you've called, please fill out this quick form so HAF knows you've played a key role! HAF may need constituents of certain House members to play a bigger role.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. TKS,
I did

 

[prasad1]

Mr. TKS,
Please take a look at this post in Times_Of_India:
US group protest resolution on Indian religious freedom,
US group protest resolution on Indian religious freedom - The Times of India

 

[tks]

Mr. TKS,
Please take a look at this post in Times_Of_India:
US group protest resolution on Indian religious freedom,
US group protest resolution on Indian religious freedom - The Times of India

Good find indeed
Thanks for sharing.

The Hindi speech by Rajiv Malhotra I posted elsewhere explains in detail his research about how outside funding by powerful religious groups are manufacturing issues . I know the speeches posted are long but there are interesting findings. There is a group called Dalit Freedom Movement and except for those who are at the top of the organization (Indians) all those that create policy and work on real things are outsiders funded by powerful religious organization. The manufactured news is then used to create further issues.

As a side note I did not realize until recently (in watching those posted videos) that the word Dravidian is a Sanskrit word used by Sri Sankara to describe himself (meaning coming location where three waters meet as in Southern tip) during a debating session.

From DNA point of view there are no differences between Indians - division into Aryans and Dravidians and further break up as Dalits is all manufactured lies that happened over time and now turning into issues. Creating religious issues and fights in India is planned at the highest levels of powerful groups in the world.

Also see : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rajiv-malhotra/how-evangelists-are-inven_b_841606.html

http://www.chakranews.com/rajiv-malhotras-unpublished-interview-with-a-christian-publication/3481

 

[renuka]

further break up as Dalits is all manufactured lies that happened over time and now turning into issues. Creating religious issues and fights in India is planned at the highest levels of powerful groups in the world.

Dear TKS ji,

Do you really believe this..that all breaking up people into Dalits etc are lies and were started by powerful foreign groups?

I do not really think so?

Our religious texts have enough usage of the words like Dog eaters/Chandala etc..Bhagavad Geeta too contained the word Svapake(Dog Eater to denote a Chandala).

Adi Shankaracharya and Chandala famous episode itself clearly denotes that untouchablility was very much an Indian culture and mindset.

The least we Hindus can do is just admit that all these started in India itself and later other countries knew our weakness that we tend to divide and rule our own selves.


We have Sattva Genes theory..Higher Spiritual Level Theory etc..even in a Prominent Revered Saint's Forum it is mentioned that "if an untouchable enters a house of a Brahmana..all cooked food needs to be thrown away..all earthern ware need to be thrown away..all utensils need to be washed with water..cow dung need to be smeared on the floor and a cow need to be brought into the house to purify the area again"

So you tell me..There is no use crying "We Didn't Start the Fire" and keep blaming everyone else for our own short comings.

If we want to make a change..we have to first change our mind set..if that is not possible then I guess we can keep on singing 'We Didn't start the Fire"..enjoy the song.

[video=youtube_share;jR-A4QFHZBA]http://youtu.be/jR-A4QFHZBA[/video]

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Do you really believe this..that all breaking up people into Dalits etc are lies and were started by powerful foreign groups?

I do not really think so?

Our religious texts have enough usage of the words like Dog eaters/Chandala etc..Bhagavad Geeta too contained the word Svapake(Dog Eater to denote a Chandala).

Adi Shankaracharya and Chandala famous episode itself clearly denotes that untouchablility was very much an Indian culture and mindset.

The least we Hindus can do is just admit that all these started in India itself and later other countries knew our weakness that we tend to divide and rule our own selves.


We have Sattva Genes theory..Higher Spiritual Level Theory etc..even in a Prominient Revered Saint Forum it is mentioned that "if an untouchable enters a house of a Brahmana..all cooked food needs to be thrown away..all earthern ware need to be thrown away..all utensils need to be washed with water..cow dung need to be smeared on the floor and a cow need to be brought into the house to purify the area again"

So you tell me..There is no use crying "We Didn't Start the Fire" and keep blaming everyone else for our own short comings.

If we want to make a change..we have to first change our mind set..if that is not possible then I guess we can keep on singing 'We Didn't start the Fire"..enjoy the song.

[video=youtube_share;jR-A4QFHZBA]http://youtu.be/jR-A4QFHZBA[/video]

In every society there had been problems due to divisions. The subcontinent of India is no different.

I am not sure if you had the time to watch the video presentations by Malhotra and others.

I am only talking about the present day issues (last few hundred years)

Please read 'Breaking India' and all the associated research that went into making it.

This is not about denial of any kind.

Words when formed had a meaning.. How that meaning gets transformed is part of the issue.

 

[renuka]

In every society there had been problems due to divisions. The subcontinent of India is no different.

I am not sure if you had the time to watch the video presentations by Malhotra and others.

I am only talking about the present day issues (last few hundred years)

Please read 'Breaking India' and all the associated research that went into making it.

This is not about denial of any kind.

Words when formed had a meaning.. How that meaning gets transformed is part of the issue..

Dear TKS ji,

Yes other nations also have divisions but not birth based divisions.

For me when I read all these all I can think is "When we Hindus did not know how to respect our own selves and preached Divide and Rule policy of our own religion and society other countries just knew how to screw us using our own lack of unity....well this is what we call Karma ..we reap what we sow... the past always comes back to haunt the present"

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Yes other nations also have divisions but not birth based divisions.

For me when I read all these all I can think is "When we Hindus did not know how to respect our own selves and preached Divide and Rule policy of our own religion and society other countries just knew how to screw us using our own lack of unity....well this is what we call Karma ..we reap what we sow... the past always comes back to haunt the present"

White and black race is birth based ...In fact all divisions regardless of how we acknowledge are birth based.
Specifically with respect to the evolution of caste, Jati, Varna etc you may want to at least skim the presentations and possibly read the book

Rajiv Malhotra (and Dr Swami ) has written and spoke about about this so called 'birth based divisions' - how this belief and practice came into being. You can refute their arguments but only with similar levels of research.

I do not want to restate those ideas here..

Finally anyone can say anything, advance any theory, or mandate practices. They can be prominent or no-body..
In the end there has to be logic, end to end consistency that connects the ideas presented and some facts behind assertion.

I am not advocating to pretend that Indian society is great or pretend that we can fix the issues. The only thing we can do is to deep dive into studies, look for consistency and see if there is any logic.

The money influence, 800+ years of Islamic rule, 200 years of Brittish rule has had impact on the India psyche and how facts are perceived.

Many times someone may cite a reference who may have cited someone else... You have to go through the chain, verify authenticity to the extent it is possible to properly attribute what happened. That is the level of research that Rajiv Malhotra funds.

 

[renuka]

White and black race is birth based ...In fact all divisions regardless of how we acknowledge are birth based.
Specifically with respect to the evolution of caste, Jati, Varna etc you may want to at least skim the presentations and possibly read the book

Rajiv Malhotra (and Dr Swami ) has written and spoke about about this so called 'birth based divisions' - how this belief and practice came into being. You can refute their arguments but only with similar levels of research.

Dear TKS ji,

White and Black are skin colors due to melanin...that is a genetic difference.

I am talking about the same race ..does any other race in the world have a Varna system?

Well you see with surnames like Malhotra and the TB Dr Swamy which are from upper caste..its easy to talk when they would have never been in a situation where they were discriminated just by being born a Dalit.

Only now we see all this sorts of thinking that " Oh My Dalit Bro and Sis share the same DNA as me.. I didnt call you Dalit..the White Man did! blah blah blah"

Making use of the Dalit again by making him feel that he is no different cos one fears foreign "attack" as long Dalit movements exists as a living proof that discrimination is still on the prowl.

I wish Dalits would see that they are always been made use of.

If I were a Dalit leader in this present era ..I would be foster diplomatic ties with the Frenemy of the State. USA can be considered the Frenemy of the state..where they are not 100% friendly but yet not 100% an violent enemy either.


Some countries need a strong Frenemy to make them foster unity among themselves even though it might be a false facade..so at least something works and moves to keep everyone on their toes.


India needs another Ambedkar now..this time it will be better cos there is no Gandhi to stop him.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

White and Black are skin colors due to melanin...that is a genetic difference.

I am talking about the same race ..does any other race in the world have a Varna system?

Well you see with surnames like Malhotra and the TB Dr Swamy which are from upper caste..its easy to talk when they would have never been in a situation where they were discriminated just by being born a Dalit.

Only now we see all this sorts of thinking that " Oh My Dalit Bro and Sis share the same DNA as me.. I didnt call you Dalit..the White Man did! blah blah blah"

Making use of the Dalit again by making him feel that he is no different cos one fears foreign "attack" as long Dalit movements exists as a living proof that discrimination is still on the prowl.

I wish Dalits would see that they are always been made use of.

If I were a Dalit leader in this present era ..I would be foster diplomatic ties with the Frenemy of the State. USA can be considered the Frenemy of the state..where they are not 100% friendly but yet not 100% an violent enemy either.


Some countries need a strong Frenemy to make them foster unity among themselves even though it might be a false facade..so at least something works and moves to keep everyone on their toes.


India needs another Ambedkar now..this time it will be better cos there is no Gandhi to stop him.

The latest genocide that happened was at Rwanda between Tutsi and Hutu clans.. I am not sure there is any genetic difference between them to the best I know.

The Japanese still discriminate Korean born immigrants (one of my friend from PhD days has Japanese name, does not know Korean language, his parents were born in Korea) .. Racially they are not different but there is systematic discrimination.

All human beings of today, of the past and in the future will find ways to discriminate against others since human beings are insecure with strong desires for all kinds of power, money, fame or whatever.

The racial differences even in black and white is negligible.

Before you ask if any country has Varna system you may have an opinion of it based on whatever practices you may have witnessed.
The next level of analysis is to know what they actually meant as word and how it got evolved and why.

What is said is that people called Dalits (I dislike that label) are no different from you and I. That is exactly what Malhotra is saying.

You seem to think 'they (Dalit) need Frenemy' as if they are different from you..They are not someone else , They are us ...

We do not need Frenemy .. We just need an United India in the world we live in that can coexist in mutual respect with all other races and countries.

 

[renuka]

You seem to think 'they (Dalit) need Frenemy' as if they are different from you..They are not someone else , They are us ...

We do not need Frenemy .. We just need an United India in the world we live in that can coexist in mutual respect with all other races and countries.

Dear TKS ji,

I do not view Dalits as different from me...I am human like everyone else.....but how many people think like you and me?

I am sure even if you start a poll here and ask the question "are all humans equal"..lets see the response from members.

In this world there is always a predator for everyone...to keep things in balance.

So the same theory applies when it comes to politics..just imagine if a country did not have a Frenemy??

Wont there be utter chaos when things go unchecked..a little fear of the Frenemy makes things move.

See the reaction to this Anti India Legislation itself..there is a reaction to "improve" even though it might be just temporary.

What I do not like is..when in times of trouble that time the Dalits are made to feel that they are same by DNA etc but once they problem is over the Dalit is kicked again.

Does anyone has the guts to tell religious leaders of the deified kind to alter their caste based perception since Dr Swamy and Malhotra have some evidence now??

It would not work isn't it?? Cos that is against traditions..there is no use Dr Swamy or Malhotra comes up with some evidence based theory..these words need to come from the religious leaders of the most orthodox orders.

You know recently I called up a well known religious University in India asking about their MA Sanskrit and I was told that MA Sanskrit was not offered to females and only other courses are offered to females.

I was totally shocked and I sent them an email telling them that I guess the Advaita they preach is only in text books and not in their minds.

So you see discrimination is the Indian way of life..just accept it..may be someone should tell Dr Swamy to tell the religious leaders to echo his theory too.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

I do not view Dalits as different from me...I am human like everyone else.....but how many people think like you and me?

I am sure even if you start a poll here and ask the question "are all humans equal"..lets see the response from members.

In this world there is always a predator for everyone...to keep things in balance.

So the same theory applies when it comes to politics..just imagine if a country did not have a Frenemy??

Wont there be utter chaos when things go unchecked..a little fear of the Frenemy makes things move.

See the reaction to this Anti India Legislation itself..there is a reaction to "improve" even though it might be just temporary.

What I do not like is..when in times of trouble that time the Dalits are made to feel that they are same by DNA etc but once they problem is over the Dalit is kicked again.

Does anyone has the guts to tell religious leaders of the deified kind to alter their caste based perception since Dr Swamy and Malhotra have some evidence now??

It would not work isn't it?? Cos that is against traditions..there is no use Dr Swamy or Malhotra comes up with some evidence based theory..these words need to come from the religious leaders of the most orthodox orders.

You know recently I called up a well known religious University in India asking about their MA Sanskrit and I was told that MA Sanskrit was not offered to females and only other courses are offered to females.

I was totally shocked and I sent them an email telling them that I guess the Advaita they preach is only in text books and not in their minds.

So you see discrimination is the Indian way of life..just accept it..may be someone should tell Dr Swamy to tell the religious leaders to echo his theory too.

Discrimination will always be there within human beings - there will always be some reason.
They arise due to differences in our capacity both as individuals and as a 'group'


The differences will always be there between any two entities (groups inclusive) in this creation/manifestation.
Even two crows or spiders are not identical.

The message is not that we are all equal in every way which is incorrect and undesirable. There has to be a basis for mutual respect.

In creation/manifestations all are not equal - all fingers in a hand are different.

Every part of a car cannot be an engine and there will be need for small screws also .. Without the right screw the car cannot function.

The entities work together to enable synergy and value derived is beyond any one entity can do.

But this cannot happen in an air of disrespect within human beings.

So what is the basis for respect when two entities are different which is how the creation appears?

Our system of dealing with differences by the teaching of Rishis iis remarkable- that is the philosophical basis.

That basis is lost over time and hence Indian subcontinent like all others have been subjected to exploitation.

Using my words and paraphrasing what Malhotra and few others are doing is to get back to those basics.

You may see Malhotra as some kind of upper caste .. I dont. I dont care what his background is. What I care is what he has to say and if what he says has logic and value. He is not a politician - he made tons of money and at the age of 44 set up a foundation to fund research to dispel harmful ideas that result in harm to society such as those in India.

There are few such organization that is dedicated to making a difference - the least we can do is to be educated about them.
We cannot apply equal cynicism on everyone on an equal opportunity basis without studying what they are saying ...

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,
.
.
.



Does anyone has the guts to tell religious leaders of the deified kind to alter their caste based perception since Dr Swamy and Malhotra have some evidence now??

It would not work isn't it?? Cos that is against traditions..there is no use Dr Swamy or Malhotra comes up with some evidence based theory..these words need to come from the religious leaders of the most orthodox orders.

You know recently I called up a well known religious University in India asking about their MA Sanskrit and I was told that MA Sanskrit was not offered to females and only other courses are offered to females.

I was totally shocked and I sent them an email telling them that I guess the Advaita they preach is only in text books and not in their minds.

So you see discrimination is the Indian way of life..just accept it..may be someone should tell Dr Swamy to tell the religious leaders to echo his theory too.

Let us not give too much importance to so called religious leaders. Society -I am talking about educated and structured part - is corrupt by and large by their inaction.

People (structured society) unless they belong to a cult do not listen to any religious leaders.

Regarding your comment about Sanskrit program:

I used to take Sanskrit as a subject until high school. One of the girls in my class went onto get her MA in Sanskrit. I do not know which university and I have lost contact with her.

If one university refuses because they have jackasses in the position of authority - so what.
I recently met a an American in East Coast who is a Sanskrit scholar and he can even teach an MA course. He accomplished this in 7 years and his dedication. He has a family, and has own business.

Do you know that Oppenheimer who led the Manhatten Project that made the Nuclear Bomb was a Sanskrit Scholar who could read Vedas and Upanishad.

His quote from B.Gita is very famous (Chapter 10) after the initial test of a Bomb and its destructive power.


My point is that if you are able to find time from your professional career nothing can stop you from getting an MA (with or without a formal degree) and even teach others how to interpret important documents.

Regarding changes:

Some changes happen slowly and die. Some happen suddenly - we cannot predict if positive change can happen for India's unique issues. The country does not need any of us - it will be egotistical to think so.

But what we can do is to educate ourselves about good effort anywhere, ensure it is based on proper foundation and support them for our personal growth.

We cannot expect someone in power to not discriminate for any number of reasons - race, caste, creed, gender, sexual orientation , national origin ... they do this out of their ignorance.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dear TKS ji,

White and Black are skin colors due to melanin...that is a genetic difference.

I am talking about the same race ..does any other race in the world have a Varna system?

Well you see with surnames like Malhotra and the TB Dr Swamy which are from upper caste..its easy to talk when they would have never been in a situation where they were discriminated just by being born a Dalit.

Only now we see all this sorts of thinking that " Oh My Dalit Bro and Sis share the same DNA as me.. I didnt call you Dalit..the White Man did! blah blah blah"

Making use of the Dalit again by making him feel that he is no different cos one fears foreign "attack" as long Dalit movements exists as a living proof that discrimination is still on the prowl.

I wish Dalits would see that they are always been made use of.

If I were a Dalit leader in this present era ..I would be foster diplomatic ties with the Frenemy of the State. USA can be considered the Frenemy of the state..where they are not 100% friendly but yet not 100% an violent enemy either.


Some countries need a strong Frenemy to make them foster unity among themselves even though it might be a false facade..so at least something works and moves to keep everyone on their toes.


India needs another Ambedkar now..this time it will be better cos there is no Gandhi to stop him.

Your comments remind me of the days of Dalitisthan when there were concerted efforts supported by groups in U.S, U.K and the West to break up India. Nagaland, Mizoram and the entire North eastern region was a fertile grpund. Tamil Nadu an the so called Dravidians were also sympathizers. They were cultivated. It is only in the sixties that the Dravidian parties really gave up the demand for separation from India. That is when they came to power.

The common factor in this attempt that it was backed by the Christian organizations. They continue todo so.

The so called West has always been very keen on balkanization of India. That is the only way to covert all the Indians to Christianity.

It is the Christian organization which have been the back bone of all anti_India propaganda. Unfortunately we blame only the Muslims. We have no problem in a born again Christian becoming the min trustee of a temple.

BJP is called Hindu nationalistic party by the western media. Why this nationalistic adjective? Because that means they would put the interest of India above that of U.S. It has not become( so far) a vassal state of U. S like South Korea.

To be contd.

 

[renuka]

Your comments remind me of the days of Dalitisthan when there were concerted efforts supported by groups in U.S, U.K and the West to break up India. Nagaland, Mizoram and the entire North eastern region was a fertile grpund. Tamil Nadu an the so called Dravidians were also sympathizers. They were cultivated. It is only in the sixties that the Dravidian parties really gave up the demand for separation from India. That is when they came to power.



The so called West has always been very keen on balkanization of India. That is the only way to covert all the Indians to Christianity.

Conversion of all Indians to Christianity does not get rid of "Varnaism".

As long a person is genetically Indian.. Varnaism rules his mind and we will see divisions like Dalit Christian and Upper Caste Christian etc.

So converting to any other religion is of no use..in fact other religions might start adopting Varnaism if there is a mass conversion of Hindus to other religions!LOL

But even staying in Hinduism is of not much use to the Dalits cos they have to read Hindu texts where it clearly puts them at sub human level.

Any self respecting person that is being suppressed will either choose a religion that does not discriminate or choose Atheism.

The problem is not with God but the problem is with humans.

BTW I do not feel my comments are anywhere similar to any Dalitsthan or any Dravidian movement cos all those movements could have had some amount of hatred to any specific Varna etc but what I wrote had no hatred towards anyone or any specific Varna..so I do not think the comparison is apt.

What I wrote is just to emphasis that one needs to be smart to survive in an environment that does not give you the due respect even in your own religion...hence the ally with the Frenemy concept...but obviously one needs to be smart enough to deal with a Frenemy and do not end up Sleeping with the Enemy!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Japan had a rigid Caste system. But They were able to hide this. This has not been abolished because the Government does not even acknowledge its existence.

Burakumin ? The Untouchables In the Japanese Caste System | The Seven Worlds

Compare India's Caste System and Feudal Japan's Four-Tiered Class Structure

The Christian missionaries in Japan were not allowed to exploit these divisions to proselytize.

In India they had a free time and were encourage by the British. They expected to covert all the Dalits. They did not succeed.

Being a rich nation the Japanese have been able to withstand any enquiry or deep study into these practices.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Renuka,

Post #5:

Our religious texts have enough usage of the words like Dog eaters/Chandala etc..Bhagavad Geeta too contained the word Svapake(Dog Eater to denote a Chandala).

A dog-eater will be just that - a dog eater. He can not be called a lion-eater because we are subscribed to the theory of respect for individuals.

We have Sattva Genes theory..Higher Spiritual Level Theory etc

What matters is whether these theories have substance or not. If you think that they are laughable theories prove that they are indeed so. There is no use taking pot shots at them in this way.

it is mentioned that "if an untouchable enters a house of a Brahmana..all cooked food needs to be thrown away..all earthern ware need to be thrown away..all utensils need to be washed with water..cow dung need to be smeared on the floor and a cow need to be brought into the house to purify the area again"

This is another pot shot. What is the context. Extreme solutions are for extreme cases and not for every day usage. Without putting these things in the coordinate of time of that era it is no use criticising these blindly. I am waiting for the supremacist theorists to jump into the fray. A few days back a relative visited my friend. The visitor was from US. She came with her two year old daughter. When the child asked for water, my friend's wife went in to get a glass of water. But the visitor refused it and went to her car to bring in the water in a bottle she was carrying. She was very particular that the child drinks only that water. She said she was scared of the child getting any infection. Naturally my friend's wife felt slighted.

Now, shall we say all those PIO mothers from US are kind of supremacist practitioners of a horrible, discriminatory, atrocious form of exclusivity called "neo casteism"?

The least we Hindus can do is just admit that all these started in India itself and later other countries knew our weakness that we tend to divide and rule our own selves

Please read Nachinarkiniyan's post. It was there in other ancient civilizations too. It is not unique to India or Hinduism alone. The word ghetto has its origins in European discrimination of an entire community (the members were issued permits and were allowed to come out of enclosures for work in a fixed period of time interval and were required to get back to their enclosures to spend the night). KKK is nothing but a manifestation of many unexpressed undercurrents of discrimination in a society on the basis birth based disparities.

post #9:

I am talking about the same race ..does any other race in the world have a Varna system?

Within the same race too, is every one endowed with everything the same way at birth? Why superimpose a theory that every thing is equal, same, similar etc at birth while the very scheme of nature is not that? Take a look at the nature's creation free from bias and prejudice. You will understand the true state of affairs. There ARE differences and this can not be denied and pushed under the carpet. This does not mean that the differences should be exploited in an inequitable way. But the first requirement is the recognition of the fact so that we can deal with the human nature which tends to exploit. As long as we are under the strong influence of victimhood grievances we can not have a dialogue on this. You will be talking past me and I will never be reaching you.

Well you see with surnames like Malhotra and the TB Dr Swamy which are from upper caste..its easy to talk when they would have never been in a situation where they were discriminated just by being born a Dalit.

This is the problem with intellectuals who want to be always the champions of a cause which they create in the first place. If someone says something, first of all get hold of his horoscope, find out his gotra and caste and subcaste and see whatever he says in the color you are able to coat on your glass with your knowledge gained from the horoscope.

Only now we see all this sorts of thinking that " Oh My Dalit Bro and Sis share the same DNA as me.. I didnt call you Dalit..the White Man did! blah blah blah"

So you are upset that the new thinking accepts dalits. I interpret it this way:The victimhood champions have lost the script and that makes them sad.

 

[renuka]

So you are upset that the new thinking accepts dalits. I interpret it this way:The victimhood champions have lost the script and that makes them sad.

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

I am only replying this...cos the other part of your post is just recycled stuff.

Nope I am not upset about accepting Dalits....Why should I be?? I have no hidden agenda..I am upset that Dalits are always been used as Pawns in the Chess game of the Upper Caste.

This is a fact that no one can deny.So please do not try to twist facts that I had written and make it sound as if I have a problem with accepting Dalits.

 

[sarang]

This is also related.
[h=1]U.S. Evangelicals, Indian Expats Teamed Up to Push Through Modi Visa Ban[/h]By ZAHIR JANMOHAMED

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013...ush-through-modi-visa-ban/?smid=tw-share&_r=0

 

[sangom]

For all the energetic discussions here, I find that the said resolution, as per TOI report,

praises India's "rich religious diversity and commitment to tolerance and equality," while raising concerns over the erosion of religious freedom. It also highlights the alleged role of Modi in the 2002 communal riots in Gujarat.

So, how much anti-Indian will it be for any Indian in US? I think no.

Let Modi become the PM and then I am sure, the US Congress and the government will simply sweep all these under the carpet. This current "stunt" appears to me to be a handiwork of Congress and its president to somehow save their sinking ship. Let us vote as per our choice, but not to Congress. And then let us sit back and watch the fun! US cannot live without India (at least to keep China under some check) just as much as the vice versa for many reasons.

Anyway, this also forebodes BJP's agenda which is likely to be "Modi is India and India is Modi"; let us beware of that. Even the Kazhagams are a better choice in this regard.

 

[renuka]

Dear Vaagmi ji,

I am totally surprised that you think I have a problem with the new thinking of accepting Dalits.

I do not believe that by some theories by Swamy and Malhotra the Orthodox mindset is going to change.

The day it changes will be the day a Saint has the guts to tell the whole world that Varna classification was the biggest blunder in the history of Hinduism..but no one will..everyone just sugar coats their words and give terminologies like Harijan etc to give a temporary boost to Dalits.

Dalits are humans like all of us..they do not need hand outs and do not need beg to be accepted.

They can very well just walk away from everything and shine on their own..I feel any true self respecting Hindu will walk away from a dogma which preaches inequality.

One can walk away from a dogma but that does not mean he/she has walked away from God.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

This discussion is about Anti India legislation in progress in US Congress now and not about the Dalits in India or the Varna System. I request the members to bear this in mind. We have had enough and more discussions about the Varna system and do not need any advise or homilies on that.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Renukaji,

Your post #21:

I am totally surprised that you think I have a problem with the new thinking of accepting Dalits.

Need not be surprised at all. You said all this in post #9. (no recycling here and no twisting either, I have better things to do):

1. Well you see with surnames like Malhotra and the TB Dr Swamy which are from upper caste..its easy to talk when they would have never been in a situation where they were discriminated just by being born a Dalit

2. Only now we see all this sorts of thinking that " Oh My Dalit Bro and Sis share the same DNA as me.. I didnt call you Dalit..the White Man did! blah blah blah"

3. Making use of the Dalit again by making him feel that he is no different cos one fears foreign "attack" as long Dalit movements exists as a living proof that discrimination is still on the prowl.

4. I wish Dalits would see that they are always been made use of.

5. India needs another Ambedkar now..this time it will be better cos there is no Gandhi to stop him.

What I understood from all this:

1. The surnames (I do not have to get their horoscope to know the caste. The surname is enough for me) show that they are Brahmins/upper caste people. They can never know the discriminations of a dalit. But I know that well even though I am not a dalit.

2. Only now (in the later part of the twentieth and beginning of twenty first century) all this “blah blah” is being mouthed by these upper caste people. So we have to discount this liberally by a factor of 100%. The conclusion is if higher caste people say all this blah blah blah throw it in the dust bin. Don’t bother to find out whether it comes from their heart or not. If it were to be truly from the heart it should have come in the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century. (don’t ask me why 17[SUP]th [/SUP]Century. It is my theory.)

3. Look! Look!! I told you so. These people are scared of the attack and that is the reason they are kissing you and seek your friendship. Only as long as your victimhood movements are on the prowl the world will know the discrimination. It is important to keep the discrimination alive-come what may.

4. Don’t give up your memory of grievances-past or present, real or perceived. Keep remembering them. Otherwise you will be made use of. We, the champions of underdogs, need your grievances simmering for ever so that we have reason and motive to keep punching our favourite punching bags. Ambedkar unnecessarily meddled with these grievances and introduced the reservation for dalits which has unfortunately helped you progress and forget some of the grievances. We need another Ambedkar now so that we can expect more and more of Ambedkars coming every century to address your everlasting grievances like the avatars of God coming to “vinAsAya dushkruthAm…sambhavAmi yugE yugE”.

Am I wrong? These deductions lead me to think that you are uncomfortable/upset with the possibility of dalits coming into mainstream.

The day it changes will be the day a Saint has the guts to tell the whole world that Varna classification was the biggest blunder in the history of Hinduism..but no one will..everyone just sugar coats their words and give terminologies like Harijan etc to give a temporary boost to Dalits.

Varna classification by itself was not a blunder. The twist given to varna classification by the society was unfortunate. Varnas are just a classification representing the reality as it exists. This is no sugar coat. This is the bitter truth. In an emotionally surcharged atmosphere taken over completely by charlatans, even well meaning attempt to give a new name(because the old name carries a lot of painful history with it) becomes a bone of contention.

Dalits are humans like all of us..they do not need hand outs and do not need beg to be accepted.

Yes they are human beings like us. They need affirmative steps like reservations to help them quickly cover the distance lost. This has something to do with the fact that they are numerical minorities and without the affirmative action their voice may not carry weight at all. Alternatively they will have to look for a Che Guvera and that will not be good for the society. Their accepting reservation benefits is not equivalent to begging for any thing. They will become self-confident once they progress.

They can very well just walk away from everything and shine on their own..I feel any true self respecting Hindu will walk away from a dogma which preaches inequality.

They can not walk away unless they decide to take up arms which is not a wise option. Hinduism does not teach any dogma of inequality. It is a monumental misunderstanding to call it a dogma of inequality.

One can walk away from a dogma but that does not mean he/she has walked away from God.

A statement of the obvious. Does not need any comments.

 

[renuka]

3. Look! Look!! I told you so. These people are scared of the attack and that is the reason they are kissing you and seek your friendship. Only as long as your victimhood movements are on the prowl the world will know the discrimination. It is important to keep the discrimination alive-come what may.

Vaagmi ji,

You are truly gifted..you are the best candidate to be PM of India cos you are the perfect politician!LOL

BTW I am not wishing victimhood to continue..you very well know that even though you choose to write differently from what your mind really knows.

As I said you are the perfect politician.

 

[kunjuppu]

I think India needs to keep an eye on this. these types are more of a nuisance than any policy impact. for example during recent new york visit, sonia had to be protected by heavy guards, to prevent court orders being served on her re sikh pogrom.

the issues of sikh pogrom after indira gandhi murder is awful. sikhs were selected and murdered by congress party henchman who are still protected by sonia gandhi today (rajiv did it earlier). i think their claims are legitimate.

re the dalits, it is a new morality new. and dalit griefs while in tamil nadu is against mid castes, the situation is pretty backward in bimaru and some other spots. let us not take ownership of those grievances, as many of them may be legitimate.

in u.k. there is fights apparently between dalits and caste hindus, though i dont know from which region. even in usa, on the east coast, tambrams and NB apparently had fight over control of temple. though i dont have details.