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An analysis of sabda and vak - Part 8

#1
Background

In the last 2 chapters of An analysis of Sabda and vAk (3), I had described the 7 parts and 19 faces in Mandukya Upanishad.

These 7 parts and 19 faces are not described in Mandukya Upanishad. The 7 parts and 19 faces comes from saMkhya kArika. Here is a brief introduction to saMkhya kArika (5).

The 24 principles of samkhya kArika


Samkhya kArika talks of 24 principles of the Universe. They are


1. Prakrti
2. Mahat
3. AhamkAra
4. A 'Set of Sixteen' and pancha-bhutas (Sloka 22 of samkhya kArika)
5. The set of Sixteen are set of Eleven and pancha tanmAtras (Sloka 24 of samkhya kArika)
6. Set of Eleven Sattvika is Five Buddhi Indriyani, Five Karma Indriyani (Sloka 26)
7. ONE Manas/Atmanas (sloka 27 of samkhya kArika)

Sometimes saMkhya is said to have 25 principles including Purusha (4).

The seven parts of Mandukhya


The 24 principles of saMkhya can said to be organized into seven physical manifestations, as described in Mandukhya Upanishad (3).

They are

1. Prakrti

2. Mahat

3. AhamkAra

4. Pancha bhutas

5. Pancha Buddhi Indriya

6. Pancha Karma Indriya

7. Manas or Atmanas

The above 7 parts are physical manifestations in the physical Universe.

The Five 'tanmAtras' are 'properties' of the above physical manifestation. 'mAtra' means 'measures'. tanmAtra can be translated as 'those measures' and is not counted as one of the 'Anga' or 'Parts' as they are properties of the 'Parts'.

Prakrti as Citta


Pra-krti means the first creation. Pra-krti is the 'Stri' as described in Brhadharanyaka Upanishad Sloka 1.4.2 (1). Pra-krti or Stri is the Background quantum oscillations or the energy that fills up the vacuum.

Prakrti which I translated (1) as 'background quantum oscillations' of Universe is the 'Citta' or simple thoughts in a Human being.

'Cita' means collection/piling up/heaping up etc. Cita -agni is pile of agni or funeral fire. A thought/thinking is a 'collection' or piling of neurons.

A thought is a pile of nuerons (Cit) connecting with some purpose. Cit-ta is that specific thought or idea that is visible/noticeable.

'Cit' is the faculty of thinking or thought process that is not just with humans. 'Cit' is the faculty of thinking or thought process of that Atman too.

Cit-ta are not just thoughts of human, but the thoughts of Atman. The Very Universe is the 'Cit-ta', the thoughts/ideas of that Atman. The very universe comes from the 'Cit' of Atman.

This idea is re-inforced by Chaitanya when he says in Madhya lila 21.55

"cic-chakti-vibhūti-dhāma — tripād-aiśvarya-nāma māyika vibhūti — eka-pāda abhidhāna"..

The Universe is the Cit-sakthi, the power/potency of thinking of the Atman. The three fourths of which is hidden (dark) and one fourth is what we observe (visual matter).

This means the entire Universe including Purusha and Prakrti are the Cit-Shakti, the thought process of Atman.

Samkhya kArika sloka 63

Samkhya kArika sloka 63 also talks about the seven forms/parts of its 24 principles, in this way.

rūpaiḥ saptabhir eva tu badhnāty ātmānam ātmanā prakṛtiḥ |
saiva ca puruṣasyārthaṃ prati, vimocayaty ekarūpeṇa

By the seven rupA/forms, manifestations of Atma (AtmAnam), bind (badhnAty) from Atma to Prakrti. To that one form (of prakrti) manifestations of Atman are liberated in return, for the sake of Purusha.

There are seven forms by which manifestations of Atma bind from Atma to Prakrti. They are Prakrti, Mahat, AhamkAra, Pancha-bhuta, Buddhi Indriyas, Karma Indriyas and Atma.

When manifestations of Atman get liberated/dissolve they all return to just one form, the form of prakrti.

In Universe parlance, with the energy filling the space/vacuum, with the background quantum oscillations, different manifestations of Universe get bound. When that binding is removed, the manifestations no longer exist and they dissolve in that empty space.

In Human parlance, with the thoughts, different manifestations of human body (buddhi and karma indriyas) gets bound. When that binding is removed, the manifestations (the indriyas) no longer exist and they dissolve into that thoughts.

When thoughts don't control our body, we just become a bundle of thoughts.

The Mahat as Buddhi

saMkhya kArika says 'Mahat' is what comes from Prakrti.

If Prakrti of Universe is Citta of Human being, then Mahat is the 'Buddhi' of Human being.

In Universe parlance, Mahat is the Energy. This energy leads to matter forms, which becomes the information content or entropy of the Universe. Thus energy becomes the 'Buddhi' (Knowledge or Information content) of Universe.

In Human parlance, Mahat is simply buddhi, the knowledge that arises out of thoughts.

aham-kAra as Ego

aham-kAra is that makes (kAra) an 'aham' or 'self'. It is the minimal energy that gives an identity to a living being or non-living object.

It is what makes every classical object/system as it is. In classical Universe's thermodyamics, it is the Internal energy that makes a system.

In Human beings, aham-kAra, that makes the self is identified with 'Ego'. In reality, it is equivalent to internal energy of matter forms.

The Five natural bhutAs

The five principal states of matter are 1. Solid 2. Liquid. 3. Gas 4. Plasma 5. Bose-Einstein Condensate.

They are principal because they exist naturally.

Solid exists naturally as Earth. Earth is Prthvi.
Liquid exists naturally as Water. Water is Jal.
Gas exists naturally as Air. Air is vAyu.
Plasma exists naturally as 'Fire'. Fire is Agni.
Bose-Einstein Condensate exists naturally as 'Interstellar space'. Interstellar space is AkAsa.

The Five tanmAtras

The sloka 38 of saMkhya kArika says "tanmātrāṇi avisheṣās, tebhyo bhūtāni pañca pañcabhyaḥ", which means the tanmātras are 'avisesa' which means 'not differentiating' or 'common properties'. The tanmAtras are common properties of the bhutA. They differentiate the bhutA into the pancha-bhutA or five states of matter.

The common five tanmAtras are the five properties or measures of matter which differentiate the five different states of matter.

The common five properties or measures of all the five states of matter or pancha-bhuta are Mass, Velocity, Pressure, Volume and Temperature.

The Atmanas, Buddhi Indriya and Karma Indirya

For a detailed discussion on these three, please refer to (2) and (3).

The seven parts and nineteen 'faces'

The seven parts of saMkhya have nineteen faces in the sense, one can 'see' nineteen different facets of the seven parts.

For Universe, they are

1. Prakrti - 1
2. Mahat - 1
3. AhamkAra - 1
4. Bhutas - 5
5. Buddhi Indriya - 5
6. Karma Indriya - 5
7. Manas/At-manas - 1

The above seven gross/sthula parts have nineteen facets or faces. They are Five of the Bhutas, Five of Buddhi Indriyas, Five of Karma Indriyas, Manas, AhamkAra, Mahat and Prakrti.

The above 19 becomes 24, when the five/pancha tanmAtras which are properties or 'measures' of the seven parts.

For human beings, the the Seven parts and nineteen faces becomes

1. Citta - 1
2. Buddhi - 1
3. AhamkAra -1
4. Pancha Bhutas - 5
5. Pancha Buddhi Indriya - 5
6. Pancha Karma Indriya - 5
7. Manas -1

The above seven gross/sthula parts have nineteen facets or faces. They are Five of the Bhutas, Five of Buddhi Indriyas, Five of Karma Indriyas, Manas, AhamkAra, Buddhi and Citta (3).

The above 19 becomes 24, when the five/pancha tanmAtras which are properties or 'measures' of the seven parts.

-TBT


References


1. http://vedabhasya.blogspot.com/2018/07/brhadharanyaka-upanishad-sloka-142-and.html
2. https://vedabhasya.blogspot.com/2018/10/an-analysis-of-sabda-and-vak-part-6.html
3. https://vedabhasya.blogspot.com/2018/12/an-analysis-of-sabda-and-vak-part-7.html
4. https://vedabhasya.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-pancha-maha-yajnas.html
5. saMkhya kArika - http://scriptures.redzambala.com/hi...karika-with-vacaspati-misra-commentaries.html


 
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renuka

Well-known member
#2
Since all of Sravna's post has been shifted to Chit Chat section...I feel these threads too should be shifted to a different section may be in some philosophy section as its also part imaginative and not evidence based.
 

a-TB

Active member
#3
Since all of Sravna's post has been shifted to Chit Chat section...I feel these threads too should be shifted to a different section may be in some philosophy section as its also part imaginative and not evidence based.
Disagree.

Mr TBT quotes references that is verifiable by knowledgeable people. The post in this thread is his understanding of a scripture. So someone knowledgeable in that scripture can rebut the explanation. No further evidence is needed. If there is no response it is not fair to say that what is written is not a discussion material

What is not clear to me are the validity of statements asserting connection between physics and puranic stories/scriptures.


Most of the posts in the Philosophy sections are well researched and written with references. Mr TBT's threads are not truly about any philosophy.

There are no threads in the forum that are truly evidence based.

I think Mr TBT's posts that are based on scriptures belong in the General section because he is providing his perspectives and it has led to discussions in the past. He could consider starting threads in Chit-chat section that try to take mythology (Purana stories) and compares them to a field like Physics. He has not provided any real predictions of Science from Puranas. I feel those kind of imaginations do not belong in this section.

But this thread is Mr TBT's explanation of a scripture. I hope truly knowledgeable people can debate with Mr TBT about his understanding. I do not have any knowledge of these scriptures.
 
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a-TB

Active member
#4
Some more observations. The references in Post 1 are not valid because they are Mr TBT's own blog posts.
The reference that are valid are mention of the upanishad and specific slokas.

In debating with Mr TBT, he said that he wants people to appreciate science through his posts. Not sure about that. But I have to give credit to Mr TBT that he always engages with anyone challenging him with respect and dignity and always tries to answer to the objections. I hope he will just share his knowledge of scriptures only and move to Chit-chat sections those aspects of comparing to Physics.
 

renuka

Well-known member
#5
Disagree.

Mr TBT quotes references that is verifiable by knowledgeable people. The post in this thread is his understanding of a scripture. So someone knowledgeable in that scripture can rebut the explanation. No further evidence is needed. If there is no response it is not fair to say that what is written is not a discussion material

What is not clear to me are the validity of statements asserting connection between physics and puranic stories/scriptures.


Most of the posts in the Philosophy sections are well researched and written with references. Mr TBT's threads are not truly about any philosophy.

There are no threads in the forum that are truly evidence based.

I think Mr TBT's posts that are based on scriptures belong in the General section because he is providing his perspectives and it has led to discussions in the past. He could consider starting threads in Chit-chat section that try to take mythology (Purana stories) and compares them to a field like Physics. He has not provided any real predictions of Science from Puranas. I feel those kind of imaginations do not belong in this section.

But this thread is Mr TBT's explanation of a scripture. I hope truly knowledgeable people can debate with Mr TBT about his understanding. I do not have any knowledge of these scriptures.

Its always fitting science into puranas and not the other way round.

So for me I feel thats not valid cos the scientists work their brains off and someone else takes their hard work and fit into the Puranas.

I would be even harsh and call this day light robbery to propagate innovations in religion.

Let's wait for a new scientific discovery then we would see a new thread fitting it into Puranas.

That is why I feel its fair if it is shifted to a different section...philosophy section and not Chit Chat.

If Sravna's can be moved..why not TBT?

I do not see any great difference...at least Sravna's is mainly his personal opinions and not fitting science into his logic.
He is always almost rejecting science.
 
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a-TB

Active member
#6
Its always fitting science into puranas and not the other way round.

So for me I feel thats not valid cos the scientists work their brains off and someone else takes their hard work and fit into the Puranas.

I would be even harsh and call this day light robbery to propagate innovations in religion.

Let's wait for a new scientific discovery then we would see a new thread fitting it into Puranas.

That is why I feel its fair if it is shifted to a different section...philosophy section and not Chit Chat.

If Sravna's can be moved..why not TBT?

I do not see any great difference...at least Sravna's is mainly his personal opinions and not fitting science into his logic.
He is always almost rejecting science.
We need to look at each thread differently and see if they fit into the definition of a section without emotions.

If someone says Science is myth, talks about controlling weather by personal power, brings every thread into that 'topic' and does not rebut the critiques of logic , then such threads cannot belong in any section which involves debates.

The threads by Mr TBT cannot be criticized simply because we do not understand what he has written. These threads do not belong in 'Science & Technology' track and they do not belong in any Philosophy track either. This is because many science persons will not agree with many of his statements. Long ago I already checked that with a Physicist who soundly rejected many of the descriptions (and I shared my experience of showing the thread to a post doc in Physics. It was a while ago).

I do not know if the threads claim any philosophy. It does not seem to be so but I am clueless on those topics (and I suspect most people are too).

True scientists do not care about such threads and it is really not about any credit taking. I do not think Mr TBT (and he can say his views) is trying to glorify Puranas and it is not fair to call his thread a daylight robbery. So I do not see the logic of the charge that Mr TBT is taking hard work of scientist for some other purpose.

If the parallels that Mr TBT sees between Puranas and Science is not validated by scientists then it only belongs only in his personal blog and not here in any sections.
 
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prasad1

Well-known member
#7
I am a member of this site, I thank the administrator for providing this platform.
The administrator only reacts to multiple provocations.
If someone does not agree with the administration of the site please take it to him/her by PM.
I do not think it is appropriate to discuss in open forum. The administrator does not read each and every post.
It is a disservice to other members.
 

praveen

Life is a dream
Staff member
#8
Since all of Sravna's post has been shifted to Chit Chat section...I feel these threads too should be shifted to a different section may be in some philosophy section as its also part imaginative and not evidence based.
Each thread is treated differently based on its content.

As a senior member you should know by now that things like this are best discussed in private and not in a thread. This can derail the entire thread and make it obsolete.

If there is anything to add, please message me in private.

Thanks.
 
#9
Team,

The science I write is High-school or at best under-grad. The scriptures are something many tambrahms would have learnt or known. I thought Tambrahm community could be a good community to share my thoughts, which have exposure on science and our scriptures together as they are the ones best suited to have such cross-exposure.

So I thought this site could be a place where I get some feedback (constructive, critical, inquistive all kinds), do fine-tuning and refining in the way I present.

Enjoy.
-TBT
 

renuka

Well-known member
#10
Each thread is treated differently based on its content.

As a senior member you should know by now that things like this are best discussed in private and not in a thread. This can derail the entire thread and make it obsolete.

If there is anything to add, please message me in private.

Thanks.
Dear Praveen..
I didnt PM you cos I thought let others too state their opinion if my suggestion was acceptable.

Personally..I feel Hinduism has gone tru enough innovations so I prefer a personal opinion is best under a personal philosophy thread.

Anyway I abide by your rules and I retract my suggestion.
 

renuka

Well-known member
#11
Team,

The science I write is High-school or at best under-grad. The scriptures are something many tambrahms would have learnt or known. I thought Tambrahm community could be a good community to share my thoughts, which have exposure on science and our scriptures together as they are the ones best suited to have such cross-exposure.

So I thought this site could be a place where I get some feedback (constructive, critical, inquistive all kinds), do fine-tuning and refining in the way I present.

Enjoy.
-TBT
My objection has always been that there is no disclaimer.
A personal unproven opinion could stain the mind of anyone reading what you write.

Hindus innovate religion to such an extent that at times a human replaces God that too with fitting science into Puranas but not Puranas into science.

I too can write everything from a Bio-Med point of view and claim its the Truth but I wont do that cos there is something called innovation ..which isnt right if its merely a personal opinion.

Well...if you ask me..why dont you write a Phalashruti below all your analysis.

TBTpuranam idam Punyam
Yah Pathet TBTsannidhau
Decepticon lokam avapnoti
TBT Saha Modatheh
 
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#12
My objection has always been that there is no disclaimer.
A personal unproven opinion could stain the mind of anyone reading what you write.

Hindus innovate religion to such an extent that at times a human replaces God that too with fitting science into Puranas but not Puranas into science.

I too can write everything from a Bio-Med point of view and claim its the Truth but I wont do that cos there is something called innovation ..which isnt right if its merely a personal opinion.

Well...if you ask me..why dont you write a Phalashruti below all your analysis.

TBTpuranam idam Punyam
Yah Pathet TBTsannidhau
Decepticon lokam avapnoti
TBT Saha Modatheh
No worries.

Iam looking for 'specific' feedbacks rather than generic stuff. You are right that what I write remains my personal opinion/view unless it is proved with rigorous reviews and analysis. At the same time I present here my analysis with reference to scriptures which can be refuted on translations, science concepts or references to scriptures. That's the kind of feedback I am looking for.

A generic 'dismissal' is just another opinion that does not address the analysis that I present.

In any case, thanks for spending time and sharing your views.

-TBT
 

a-TB

Active member
#13
Dear Mr TBT,

By comparing Puranic stories to some science terms and models what do you think is the value? What is the bottomline ? Is it to establish that our Puranas and scriptures are correct? What is the objective
 
#14
Dear Mr TBT,

By comparing Puranic stories to some science terms and models what do you think is the value? What is the bottomline ? Is it to establish that our Puranas and scriptures are correct? What is the objective
Sir,

I am not driving at anything. I am studying scriptures and science, find a great correlation between them across several of scriptures and science concepts. I want people to critically look at the translations, science concepts and feedback with their views. I post these in several sites.

As you pointed out, the intersection of these two are rare and is not easy to get validated. What I want to see is if the framework of science (mappings) that I provide is 'consistent' across multiple scriptures (if that framework holds). If I am able to get that consistency across multiple slokas and scriptures, then there could be some meaning in it. It could be the start of a new domain of work.

From what I understand, our scriptures are like treasure-trove of information that have fallen on people who know it is a treasure, but have no idea of how to use it. So they put it in puja rooms. It saved these treasures for another day, another set of people to revisit these treasures.

I may declare myself wrong at the end. In the last 12+ years, I have travelled more towards the opposite. But I try to keep an open mind on what I learn and understand.

Why I do it..? Well, I enjoy it. May be the aham-kAra in me drives it. May be the 'Atman' drives it. As long as I enjoy and love doing it, will keep doing it.

-TBT
 
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a-TB

Active member
#15
Sir,

I am not driving at anything. I am studying scriptures and science, find a great correlation between them across several of scriptures and science concepts. I want people to critically look at the translations, science concepts and feedback with their views. I post these in several sites.

As you pointed out, the intersection of these two are rare and is not easy to get validated. What I want to see is if the framework of science (mappings) that I provide is 'consistent' across multiple scriptures (if that framework holds). If I am able to get that consistency across multiple slokas and scriptures, then there could be some meaning in it. It could be the start of a new domain of work.

From what I understand, our scriptures are like treasure-trove of information that have fallen on people who know it is a treasure, but have no idea of how to use it. So they put it in puja rooms. It saved these treasures for another day, another set of people to revisit these treasures.

I may declare myself wrong at the end. In the last 12+ years, I have travelled more towards the opposite. But I try to keep an open mind on what I learn and understand.

Why I do it..? Well, I enjoy it. May be the aham-kAra in me drives it. May be the 'Atman' drives it. As long as I enjoy and love doing it, will keep doing it.

-TBT
Dear Mr TBT,

Thank you.

I understand your intellectual curiosity and looking for expert feedback.

Let us say you and few others convince yourself that there is a mapping.

My question is 'so what'? I know you are not driving towards any end right now but there is some implication in your response that our Puranas etc. are treasure trove. If so , how will that help a person in using their scriptures collecting dust in the Puja room.

How will this study help a cause if any if things work out according to your 12 year quest
 
#16
Dear Mr TBT,

Thank you.

I understand your intellectual curiosity and looking for expert feedback.

Let us say you and few others convince yourself that there is a mapping.

My question is 'so what'? I know you are not driving towards any end right now but there is some implication in your response that our Puranas etc. are treasure trove. If so , how will that help a person in using their scriptures collecting dust in the Puja room.

How will this study help a cause if any if things work out according to your 12 year quest
The honest answer is I don't know. I have no expectations, except the joy of doing it. There is a joy in the search and I am enjoying it. I would simply say 'Easwaro Rakshatu'.

A logical answer could be there are several findings that I think could get triggered if it 'works out'.

1. A design pattern across Universe's evolution. May be. Who knows.? For eg. I talked about vAk, the expression being a design pattern.

2. Some clues to what dark matter is made of..? What is it that interacts with Higgs field but not with any other field..? Who can reside only in Milky ocean or What resides in Milky Ocean and not anywhere else..?

3. Some clues to additional particles/interaction that standard model may need..? 49 maruts in comparison with 48 fermions and 64 maruts in comparison with 61 particles..?

4. What is the nature of four dimensional spacetime, if it is the four-faced Hiranyagarbha, the golden uterus..? The Puranic story of Brahma says, Brahma had five faces and Shiva plucked off the fifth face. Einstein in one of the papers indeed proposed a 'fifth' dimension which is short.

5. If vedas/puranas/upanishads really resemble science, then how did they come about..? did they come from an ancient civilization that lived on earth probably before homosapien race..? Were they alien..?

6. Looking at the knowledge level of people in the last few hundred years, it appears the ancients had much more wisdom. How did that entropy or information content or knowledge level go down, given the fact by law it has to increase..? Why did it decrease..? What was the event that caused the collapse of the knowledge levels..?

7. It also appears that the ancient civilizations have a lot in common. How did that come about, given that even a thousand years back, they were actually not well connected..? Is it coincidental..?

8. If we go through our scriptures, lot of strange 'coincidences' exist. Why is Mars called Angaraka, the burnt-up or scorched one..? How did anyone knew Mars is really a scorched planet..? Is it coincidental..? Why is it called Bhauma, the son of bhumi, the planet earth..? It's true that Mars resembles planet earth in most ways, but is bigger.

Simply put, there is a lot that could get triggered, in terms of understanding ourselves and our past (which definitely helps in plotting our future).

But I am not into all these speculations at this point of time.
-TBT
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
#17
TBT,
refer above post #16.

yes, the above points are a worthwhile pursuit.

How did our ancestors came to know about this vast knowledge is the key ?

The power of the mind is vast and all powerful and still to be explored by the scientists today, Our rishis were able to harness this and understand the true nature of the universe. Continuous meditation empowers the mind to become a powerful force.

Our vedas are a description of tis knowledge so that we can know. So interpreting tis correctly is a worthwhile pursuit,

as Shankara demonstrates in the advaitam that one can transcend the body and enter another. In similar vein the soul can traverse and know the truth of the universe, the physical planets and their characteristics etc..

so you have to look at it from that standpoint.

Infact my view is that a trained mind can move matter and that's how our ancients were able to lift seemingly impossible stones - some 100 tons and more up the pyramids and build them so accurately.

This is also fits our ancient texts where rishis were able to perform miracles with their mind and incantations.

Unless of course we can prove our ancestors were aliens from another planet. Here I mean aliens as humans, so some of us humans could have come from another planet and brought this knowledge.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
#18
Our ancestors knew of things which are only proven by science today,

Concept of immaculate conception - how did our ancients even think that a child can be born without a normal mating between man and woman? My point is not if it really happened. How did they even think it is possible ?? How did they even think that a child can be born in a pot ???

Concept of reviving the dead - how did they know that we can bring back the soul into the dead body once it has departed ??? Again it is not about whether it is possible or not - Shankara actually demonstrates it is possible. How did they know that it is possible ??

so many things in our text clearly point to superior knowledge that science is just beginning to understand.

So either a alien civilisation came and visited us in the ancient past or clearly the mind is all knowing and carefully harnessing it can reveal the true nature of the universe.

And our vedas contain this exhaustive knowledge of our universe !!!
 

sravna

Well-known member
#19
Well said Jaykay. Science has to go a long long way before it displays the kind of understanding that our scriptures do. It is really funny to see believers in science thinking science has seen it all when science is just looking at the surface still.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
#20
Sravana, Absolutely. The problem is many of the people are unable to accept unless it is validated by the new age scientists. Not to mention, being highly opionated makes them less receptive of others ideas !!
 
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