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  1. #1
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    What's happening in 2G Investigation?: CBI, Supreme Court and Political Opposition


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    I have been watching the 2G investigation very keenly.

    Now, the current uproar is whether Home Minister PC must be investigated for his role as FM when 2G spectrum was sold, or not.

    Some background and relevant questions -

    1. CBI claims that A. Raja & Co has incurred Rs. 1.7 lakh crores loss to the Exchequer by selling the 2G spectrum by First Qualified First Served, instead of selling to the highest bidder.

    By doing this, he has gotten "kick-backs" from the Corporates.

    Raja has replied that selling the 2G by FQFS was the recommendation of Telecom Regulatory Agency of India, as approved by the policies of the UPA I Govt, headed by Dr. MMS and the Cabinet.

    There is no evidence what so ever that Raja got any kickback from anybody... what we have is speculation, innuendo and conjecture from his political enemies like CM J Jaya and Sub Swamy!

    Dr. MMS has said in the Parliament that any imaginary LOSS in the sale of 2G is arbitrary because it depends on the variables involved. He does not believe that the Exchequer lost any money, and this view is corroborated by TRAI.

    Then, where is the forensic or documentary proof that A. Raja committed any crime at all here?

    2. Why Raja, Kani & Co are not given bail by the Supreme Court? They are not flight risk... their passports can be confiscated easily and MUST be given bail immediately. Unless, Supreme Court is in bed with a Police State.

    3. PM, FM and Law Minister are all part of the Policy Machinery in any Govt... How could you investigate a Policy Decision?

    Why should there be any investigation of PC? Then, why not of Shouri, Maran, Jaswant Singh and others? Are we not going on Wild Goose Chase?

    Political Opposition is running amok... they bent upon throwing mud in the Engine of Govt.... Is this what expected of National Opposition Parties?

    4. Is CBI run by politicians or by Professionals? Is Home Minister the real head of CBI? If not, who is?

    In short, this 2G Investigation is a WASTE of public money... No Crime was Committed, and Raja, Kani & Others must be released immediately.... unless India is sliding down in the slippery slope of ANARCHY!

    What say you?
    Last edited by Yamaka; 24-09-2011 at 10:23 PM.
  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaka View Post

    3. PM, FM and Law Minister are all part of the Policy Machinery in any Govt... How could you investigate a Policy Decision?

    Why should PC must be investigated?
    The UPA govt can say it is a policy decision; it would only mean then that the POLICY ITSELF IS THE SCAM!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaka View Post
    In short, this 2G Investigation is a WASTE of public money
    In the end, none of these scamsters would be punished. Neither the issued licenses will be cancelled nor will the losses be regained. In that sense, this investigation can be considered a waste. However, whether such corruption can be totally prevented or not, a heavy price can be put to discourage corruption. Hence the efforts to create Jan Lok Pal Bill etc. In that sense, this investigation is not a waste.
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  4. #3
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    What's happening in BOFORS Investigation?: CBI, Supreme Court and Political Opposition.

    except for being a good verbal fodder to those who sit in the opposition bench.


    sad, nothing happened on that, even when the same opposition got a chance to be the rulers.

    at least , the one solacing thing here is, the rulers filed and face the charges, but its not the case with the political system in india, which taught me a new vocab called 'Vendetta'... i appreciate mr.manmohan sigh for initiating such a trial on his own team.
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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by கால பைரவன் View Post
    The UPA govt can say it is a policy decision; it would only mean then that the POLICY ITSELF IS THE SCAM!



    In the end, none of these scamsters would be punished. Neither the issued licenses will be cancelled nor will the losses be regained. In that sense, this investigation can be considered a waste. However, whether such corruption can be totally prevented or not, a heavy price can be put to discourage corruption. Hence the efforts to create Jan Lok Pal Bill etc. In that sense, this investigation is not a waste.
    To me the Policy of selling 1G and 2G Spectra for a small nominal price seems to be geared towards the pocketbook of consumers:

    Consequently, the Indian consumer is paying a price of 20 paise per min of wireless usage, the cheapest in the world. Dr. MMS and his Policies need to be commended here... A Raja just implemented the Policy with a few Administrative mistakes (like changing the dates, and not being transparent as to whose Application came First and last etc.. which I consider very minor and such things happen in all Depts).

    It appears it was A. Raja who recommended to sell the higher Gs to the highest bidder, and is being implemented as such.

    We need to be careful as to what we label as "Scam" or "Bribery"... if we are indiscriminate, then nothing will get done..

    As I have written before, this Jan Lok Pal will be another MONSTER to be tamed later...

    Wait & watch.
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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaka View Post
    Consequently, the Indian consumer is paying a price of 20 paise per min of wireless usage, the cheapest in the world. Dr. MMS and his Policies need to be commended here..
    This is a bogus argument. Merely claiming that the UPA govt deliberately undersold the licenses to improve teledensity or reduce the cost to consumers (i.e. the Indian public) is not enough; The court will need proof that the govt had collected data prior to selling these licenses substantiating these claims.

    Few things that happened in the 2G scam:

    1. The govt sells the licenses at price X to a few companies at FCFS basis. All sorts of irregularities in matters such as date/time of sale, payment requirements, payment methods etc, have since been unearthed. These irregularities are orchestrated to make sure that licenses are sold to certain companies.
    2. These companies are NOT known to be in the business of mobile communications. These companies do not have any infrastructure. These companies have no expertise in this business whatsoever. After a short period of time, these companies sell their stake to real telecommunication companies for a much higher price. In essence, these companies are paper companies, who generated wealth for themselves out of thin air due to their connivance with politicians of the UPA govt. (Remember the cost to the consumers will depend on the higher price paid by the real telecommunication companies and NOT the original price paid by the paper companies. Hence, even the subsidy-to-poor-argument is bogus).
    3. Money trails from these paper companies to businesses owned by politicians of UPA govt have been established.

    Yamaka would like to believe that this is not a scam. Well, if this is not a scam, nothing can be considered a scam.
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  10. #6
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    My response in bold letters below:

    Quote Originally Posted by கால பைரவன் View Post
    This is a bogus argument. Merely claiming that the UPA govt deliberately undersold the licenses to improve teledensity or reduce the cost to consumers (i.e. the Indian public) is not enough; The court will need proof that the govt had collected data prior to selling these licenses substantiating these claims.

    My understanding is UPA I (& NDA) decided to sell 1G and 2G by the method of FQFS... the rationale for this is the teledensity and cost to consumers etc.for THEIR deliberations.. The court has NO jurisdiction to investigate Policy Issues. That should be done by the electorate at the time of National Election.

    Few things that happened in the 2G scam:

    1. The govt sells the licenses at price X to a few companies at FCFS basis. All sorts of irregularities in matters such as date/time of sale, payment requirements, payment methods etc, have since been unearthed. These irregularities are orchestrated to make sure that licenses are sold to certain companies.
    2. These companies are NOT known to be in the business of mobile communications. These companies do not have any infrastructure. These companies have no expertise in this business whatsoever. After a short period of time, these companies sell their stake to real telecommunication companies for a much higher price. In essence, these companies are paper companies, who generated wealth for themselves out of thin air due to their connivance with politicians of the UPA govt. (Remember the cost to the consumers will depend on the higher price paid by the real telecommunication companies and NOT the original price paid by the paper companies. Hence, even the subsidy-to-poor-argument is bogus).
    3. Money trails from these paper companies to businesses owned by politicians of UPA govt have been established.

    I believe these irregularities, if happened really, must be investigated.

    But not under the umbrella of "A. Raja incurred a humongous loss of $30 billion, and he got massive kickbacks!" By bringing other irregularities under this umbrella, the whole case gets a bloody nose! The charges must be separated, carefully analyzed and adjudicated.

    First, the court must accept the argument that NO REAL loss has occurred. Then, go into the Irregularities and punish the perpetrators according to the law.

    Yamaka would like to believe that this is not a scam. Well, if this is not a scam, nothing can be
    considered a scam.
    I have been a Juror in Criminal cases in the US.. The first instruction the Judge gives the jurors is "The accused is INNOCENT until proved otherwise in this Court beyond reasonable doubt. That's the law"

    I believe that's the law in India too... so far CBI has not established that a Crime of massive LOSS has indeed happened.

    That's why I believe Raja, Kani & Co ARE innocent as per the law, and are being incarcerated (by not giving bail) for their INNOCENCE by the Supreme Court!

    That's a frightening thought!

    More later...

    ps. The Opposition and the inept Media are giving FALSE appearances and convict people w/o any forensic or documentary evidences to prove their accusations and allegations....

    It's very sad that Home Ministry is allowing the CBI to run amok like this...
    Last edited by Yamaka; 25-09-2011 at 12:00 AM.
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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaka View Post
    First, the court must accept the argument that NO REAL loss has occurred. Then, go into the Irregularities and punish the perpetrators according to the law.
    The loss is REAL. The govt deliberately undersold a national resource. It did not make any effort to ascertain the market price of such resource. The motivation for the ruling party to do so is the kickbacks it received from the beneficiaries. What happened here is a scam; not mere irregularities.
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  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaka View Post
    ....
    Dr. MMS has said in the Parliament that any imaginary LOSS in the sale of 2G is arbitrary because it depends on the variables involved. He does not believe that the Exchequer lost any money, and this view is corroborated by TRAI.
    Y, if the government could have earned more money by opting open auction method, how can you claim there was no loss? While TRAO claims zero loss, CAG estimated the loss as high as 1.75 lakh crores. If CAG estimate is considered too high, TRAI estimate is absurd, simply ignores market reality, one a free-enterprise capitalist like yourself must surely regonize.

    BTW, the SC of India has already rejected TRAI estimate. A reasonable estimate of the loss is at least 30,000 crores. Denying this is simply not serious.

    Then, where is the forensic or documentary proof that A. Raja committed any crime at all here?
    This is a very technical argument, I have no idea whether this is true or not. But, given the political reality in India and Tamilnadu, I would be surprised if there is anyone who believes A. Raja is anything but a willing pawn used by DMK supremo. I sort of sympathize with Raja, if he is to be locked up and keys thrown away, then Maran, MK, and now PC must also be thrown in jail.

    However, Raja surely is not an innocent jujubee, he made his calculations and chose to be a foot soldier to the don. When things get hot, it is the foot soldiers who pay, not the dons.


    2. Why Raja, Kani & Co are not given bail by the Supreme Court? They are not flight risk... their passports can be confiscated easily and MUST be given bail immediately. Unless, Supreme Court is in bed with a Police State.
    This is a valid point, not giving them bail is a travesty.

    3. PM, FM and Law Minister are all part of the Policy Machinery in any Govt... How could you investigate a Policy Decision?
    If the policy is a criminal one, then it must be investigated. From the recent revelations of involvement of PC as FM in this matter there is enough evidence to support a prima facie case of criminal conspiracy to avoid free and open auction in favor of FCFS for the benefit of selected few vendors.

    On the point that Indians pay the least amount for air-time is a strawman argument. So what? If this was the policy intention then the government could have offered subsidies after a free and open auction, one that is free of corruption or appearance of corruption.

    Cheers!
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  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by கால பைரவன் View Post
    The loss is REAL. The govt deliberately undersold a national resource. It did not make any effort to ascertain the market price of such resource. The motivation for the ruling party to do so is the kickbacks it received from the beneficiaries. What happened here is a scam; not mere irregularities.
    Recently, TRAI submitted a report to the Court that A. Raja earned Rs. 9000 crores for the Exchequer by selling 2G Spectrum using FQFS method (the same method followed by NDA).

    Where is the REAL loss here?

    What CAG said was had it been sold to the highest bidder, some $30 billion would have been earned.

    That was purely hypothetical. There the loss was VIRTUAL, a potential LOSS and not real LOSS.

    FQFS is the Policy, period.

    The Court just can't adjudicate it...it has no authority to go into policy matters.
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  18. #10
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    N, I am giving my response in bold letters below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Y, if the government could have earned more money by opting open auction method, how can you claim there was no loss? While TRAO claims zero loss, CAG estimated the loss as high as 1.75 lakh crores. If CAG estimate is considered too high, TRAI estimate is absurd, simply ignores market reality, one a free-enterprise capitalist like yourself must surely regonize.

    My understanding is as a matter of policy both NDA and UPA decided to sell 1G and 2G by FQFS basis, and NOT to the highest bidder. They both agreed to sell higher Gs to the highest bidder.

    As a free-enterprise capitalist, I don't have problem here because it comes under Matter of Policy, which can be adjudicated by the electorate at the time of Elections.

    BTW, the SC of India has already rejected TRAI estimate. A reasonable estimate of the loss is at least 30,000 crores. Denying this is simply not serious.

    I don't know how the SC of India can reject the estimate of TRAI? I thought SC should be the Judge to oversee the arguments between the accused and the prosecutor... here SC is the prosecutor!!???

    This is a very technical argument, I have no idea whether this is true or not. But, given the political reality in India and Tamilnadu, I would be surprised if there is anyone who believes A. Raja is anything but a willing pawn used by DMK supremo. I sort of sympathize with Raja, if he is to be locked up and keys thrown away, then Maran, MK, and now PC must also be thrown in jail.

    However, Raja surely is not an innocent jujubee, he made his calculations and chose to be a foot soldier to the don. When things get hot, it is the foot soldiers who pay, not the dons.


    This is a valid point, not giving them bail is a travesty.

    If the policy is a criminal one, then it must be investigated. From the recent revelations of involvement of PC as FM in this matter there is enough evidence to support a prima facie case of criminal conspiracy to avoid free and open auction in favor of FCFS for the benefit of selected few vendors.

    On the point that Indians pay the least amount for air-time is a strawman argument. So what? If this was the policy intention then the government could have offered subsidies after a free and open auction, one that is free of corruption or appearance of corruption.

    A. Raja is the foot soldier, and he is just doing the duty assigned to him. I feel he is being abused and incarcerated for no fault of his.

    Cheers!
    Cheers.
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