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The vedas

prasad1

Active member
It might be considered a blasphemy by some.
In another thread, one member DECLARED that this topic is off limit, as Vedas are Apaurusheya.

I do not contribute to that theory.

In this universe, everything has a beginning and everything has an end Except for Brahman (by definition).

It is composed in Sanskrit, which probably originated about 3400 years ago.Sanskrit is traceable to the 2nd millennium BCE in a form known as the Vedic Sanskrit.

In the Hindu Epic the Mahabharata, the creation of Vedas is credited to Brahma. The Vedic hymns themselves assert that they were skillfully created by Rishis (sages), after inspired creativity, just as a carpenter builds a chariot.

This is MY summarization of the history of Vedas for beginners.

The Vedas are a large body of knowledge texts originating in the ancient Indian subcontinent. Composed in Vedic Sanskrit, the texts constitute the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature and the oldest scriptures of Hinduism. Hindus consider the Vedas to be apauruṣeya, which means "not of a man, superhuman" and "impersonal, authorless".

The Sanskrit term veda as a common noun means "knowledge". The term in some contexts, such as hymn 10.93.11 of the Rigveda, means "obtaining or finding wealth, property", while in some others it means "a bunch of grass together" as in a broom or for ritual fire.


The Vedas are among the oldest sacred texts. The Samhitas date to roughly 1700–1100 BCE, and the "circum-Vedic" texts, as well as the redaction of the Samhitas, date to c. 1000-500 BCE, resulting in a Vedic period, spanning the mid 2nd to mid 1st millennium BCE, or the Late Bronze Age and the Iron Age. The Vedic period reaches its peak only after the composition of the mantra texts, with the establishment of the various shakhas all over Northern India which annotated the mantra samhitas with Brahmana discussions of their meaning, and reaches its end in the age of Buddha and Panini and the rise of the Mahajanapadas (archaeologically, Northern Black Polished Ware). Michael Witzel gives a time span of c. 1500 to c. 500-400 BCE. Witzel makes special reference to the Near Eastern Mitanni material of the 14th century BCE, the only epigraphic record of Indo-Aryan contemporary to the Rigvedic period. He gives 150 BCE (Patañjali) as a terminus ante quem for all Vedic Sanskrit literature, and 1200 BCE (the early Iron Age) as terminus post quem for the Atharvaveda.

Transmission of texts in the Vedic period was by oral tradition, preserved with precision with the help of elaborate mnemonic techniques. A literary tradition is traceable in post-Vedic times, after the rise of Buddhism in the Maurya period, perhaps earliest in the Kanva recension of the Yajurveda about the 1st century BCE; however oral tradition of transmission remained active. Witzel suggests the possibility of written Vedic texts towards the end of 1st millennium BCE. Some scholars such as Jack Goody state that "the Vedas are not the product of an oral society", basing this view by comparing inconsistencies in the transmitted versions of literature from various oral societies such as the Greek, Serbia and other cultures, then noting that the Vedic literature is too consistent and vast to have been composed and transmitted orally across generations, without being written down. However, adds Goody, the Vedic texts likely involved both a written and oral tradition, calling it a "parallel products of a literate society".


Due to the ephemeral nature of the manuscript material (birch bark or palm leaves), surviving manuscripts rarely surpass an age of a few hundred years. The Sampurnanand Sanskrit University has a Rigveda manuscript from the 14th century; however, there are a number of older Veda manuscripts in Nepal that are dated from the 11th century onwards.

Four Vedas

Rigveda (RV)The canonical division of the Vedas is fourfold (turīya) viz.,

  1. Yajurveda (YV, with the main division TS vs. VS)
  2. Samaveda (SV)
  3. Atharvaveda (AV)
Of these, the first three were the principal original division, also called "trayī vidyā"; that is, "the triple science" of reciting hymns (Rigveda), performing sacrifices (Yajurveda), and chanting songs (Samaveda).The Rigveda is the oldest work, which Witzel states are probably from the period of 1900 to 1100 BCE. Witzel, also notes that it is the Vedic period itself, where incipient lists divide the Vedic texts into three (trayī) or four branches: Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva.

Each Veda has been subclassified into four major text types – the Samhitas (mantras and benedictions), the Aranyakas (text on rituals, ceremonies such as newborn baby's rites of passage, coming of age, marriages, retirement and cremation, sacrifices and symbolic-sacrifices), the Brahmanas(commentaries on rituals, ceremonies and sacrifices), and the Upanishads (text discussing meditation, philosophy and spiritual knowledge). The Upasanas (short ritual worship-related sections) are considered by some scholars as the fifth part. Witzel notes that the rituals, rites and ceremonies described in these ancient texts reconstruct to a large degree the Indo-European marriage rituals observed in a region spanning the Indian subcontinent, Persia and the European area, and some greater details are found in the Vedic era texts such as the Grhya Sūtras.


Only one version of the Rigveda is known to have survived into the modern era. Several different versions of the Sama Veda and the Atharva Veda are known, and many different versions of the Yajur Veda have been found in different parts of South Asia.



Edited from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas
 
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Does space and time have an ending? That knowledge that says "everything has an ending" has an ending? Answers of yes or no, can lead to contradictions.

Most such discussions have no conclusions, I think

All we have are some Vedic texts. Let those who want to study them are welcome. For others it makes no difference
 
According to Stephen Hawking:

The universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, space-time is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge. The predictions of the no boundary proposal seem to agree with observation. The no boundary hypothesis also predicts that the universe will eventually collapse again. However, the contracting phase, will not have the opposite arrow of time, to the expanding phase. So we will keep on getting older, and we won't return to our youth.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
 
According to Stephen Hawking:

The universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, space-time is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge. The predictions of the no boundary proposal seem to agree with observation. The no boundary hypothesis also predicts that the universe will eventually collapse again. However, the contracting phase, will not have the opposite arrow of time, to the expanding phase. So we will keep on getting older, and we won't return to our youth.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
 
Does space and time have an ending? That knowledge that says "everything has an ending" has an ending? Answers of yes or no, can lead to contradictions.

Most such discussions have no conclusions, I think

All we have are some Vedic texts. Let those who want to study them are welcome. For others it makes no difference


In an unrelated thread, some members asked about the origin of vedas and explanation given was to shut that question. I want that member to have some other answers, with some validations.
 
Dear Prasad ji..
Vedas need not be Pramanyam.
I stopped subscribing to it as Pramanyam long back even though it is informative and deep..prefer not to be bound by any book or doctrine.

Vedic is also a school of thought..it may not always define every school of thought in current day definition of Hinduism.

A Hindu need not always be a Vedic.
 
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What is aupurusheyatva..?

Purusha is used to denote mortal man as well as the panch-purusha. Brhadharanyaka Upanishad talks of five types of Purusha and also how Purusha and Stri split. Purusha Suktam also talks of that Adi Purusha which was sacrificed.

Purusheyatva are those in the state of being of Purusha or internal to purusha. apurusheyatva is not in the state of being of Purusa or external to purusha. aupurusheyatva is that are about external to the Purusha.

Let me analyse it in two dimensions. One dimension in which Purusha is a Human being. Another dimension is in which Purusha is the one sacrificed as in Purusha Suktam.

In the dimension of Purusha as human being, Knowledge is not created/invented by human being. It is discovered. Knowledge is which is outside/external, which we discover and use. What we discover, the perceptions of what we discover, keeps changing from time to time. Thus knowledge is always discovered,always external and is beyond the Purusha as human being.

If Veda are knowledge, know-how, information then they are always external (aupurusheyatva) to human beings (Purusha).

Now let me switch to another dimension.

All the matter and beings of this Universe are its 'information content' or its 'entropy'. They are its knowledge, the veda. If we, the matter and beings of this Universe are the 'veda', then they are external to the Adi Purusha (or pancha-purushas) which has 3 quarters hidden and in one quarter the Universe (its matter/information/entropy/knowledge) evolves (according to Purusha suktam).

So even in this case, Vedas are aupurusheyatva.

Now the above all has nothing to do with my specific understanding. They stand on their own. But below is my specific understanding on top of the above.

The trayi-veda, the Rg, Yajur, sAma are those that describe Quantum, Classical and biological knowledge. rk are the 'verses' of quantum world, yaju is the sacrifice/yajna of the classical world and sa-ama (with soul) is the biological world. But we have lost most of them or a large part of them. Today these are all mixed-up though we can see salient features of Yajur and Rg veda more clearly.
The atharva-veda is those that are knowledge of human inventions.

-TBT
 
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Vedas need not be Pramanyam.

Veda is knowledge. Period.
Whether it is pramAnyam or not depends on what you are looking at.

I stopped subscribing to it as Pramanyam long back even though it is informative and deep..prefer not to be bound by any book or doctrine.

No one can ever be bound by a book or doctrine. People are attracted by knowledge and are enchanted with it when they "know" it.
 
It is composed in Sanskrit, which probably originated about 3400 years ago.Sanskrit is traceable to the 2nd millennium BCE in a form known as the Vedic Sanskrit.

There appears to be a confusion between existence of knowledge and expression of the contents. Sanskrit and even the so called vedic Sanskrit may be just 3500 years old. But Sanskrit or Vedic Sanskrit is just a medium to express, exchange, preserve and share information/knowledge. So existence of knowledge can not be considered as coterminus with the existence of language.
Moreover, in the history of mankind, the need for a language (with letters, words and sentences and grammar) to express ideas came much later to other forms of expression and exchange of ideas.

So we can reasonably conclude that knowledge existed much much earlier to invention of languages.

Thus the above argument in quotes -- that knowledge started its existence only when languages were invented has no substance.

When we speak about vedas, we are not just speaking about the words, sentences, swaras and style of expression here. They are just a method of delivery of a certain content meaningfully. The content is knowledge and vedas are just knowledge and we are concerned here only about this knowledge. This knowledge can be a discovered knowledge or primordially existing knowledge. It is the belief of Hindus that vedas are primordialy existing knowledge. They believe-with sufficient reason-- that this knowledge was seen/visualised/perceived by great souls with their Divya cakshuz and was given to the world/humanity in the language that they could understand. Vedas as a whole are accepted as pure irrefutable knowledge because a good part of what is stated there are found to be true to the scientifically scrutinising minds too. The rest is not yet fully understood for want of appropriate and adequate equipments to know. But they, taken as commandments, are accepted because when a good part of what is there true the rest should also be true. This is the reason why great Acharyas have accepted vedas as ultimate pramAna while considering all available means to knowledge in Epistemology.

May be it is God's will to bequeth this body of knowledge in toto every time there is a mahapralaya and a new "creation" starts.

This is the reason why there is a belief that Vedas were not created by even God. The "knowledge" are just unadulterated, uncorrupt,irrefutable pure and resplendant truths and truths alone.

In the Hindu Epic the Mahabharata, the creation of Vedas is credited to Brahma. The Vedic hymns themselves assert that they were skillfully created by Rishis (sages), after inspired creativity, just as a carpenter builds a chariot.

Brahma, Vedvyas etc., are rishis who compiled and codified the existing pure knowledge. Please go through your sources again carefully and you will find evidence for this.


Transmission of texts in the Vedic period was by oral tradition, preserved with precision with the help of elaborate mnemonic techniques. A literary tradition is traceable in post-Vedic times, after the rise of Buddhism in the Maurya period, perhaps earliest in the Kanva recension of the Yajurveda about the 1st century BCE; however oral tradition of transmission remained active.

Your source.

So there existed an oral tradition alone for long and then it coexisted with written form. The mnemonic techniques were used to keep the knowledge pure and uncorrupt due to human errors. In fact such techniques which are also called "GanapAtam" was perfected by the Rishis and even today these techniques exist side by side with written Knowledge available in your Android Kindle.

So, dear friend, your contention that vedas had an author/s, that they originated in the known history of human civilization -about 3500 BC or about-- that there is no unknown origin or unknowable origin of vedas etc., stands repudiated. Thanks.






 
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What is Knowledge?
Yes, knowledge existed before language.
But Veda's were not known Billion years ago.
Veda's mean Knowledge.
But the Veda (under this article) is not all-knowledge, even today we are adding to know knowledge base.

Mr. Ganesh my next door neighbor, is not the Parvati Putra Ganesh. So you do not find him with a trunk.

Different objects are named the same, but they are not the same.


Vedas and Knowledge are not synonyms.


What we know as Vedas is a subset of universal knowledge.
 
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LOL
What is Knowledge?

you know the answer already.

Yes, knowledge existed before language.

Good that you have thought about it well.

But Veda's were not known Billion years ago.

Who from billion years ago said this to you? Proof please. Do you have the history of times a billion year ago? Source please.

Veda's mean Knowledge.
But the Veda (under this article) is not all-knowledge, even today we are adding to know knowledge base.

vedas is all knowledge indeed. So I will rephrase your sentence.

1.vedas mean knowledge.
--Not only mean knowledge. But is knowledge.
2.But the veda is not all-knowledge.
-- rephrased to make clear sense-->But the veda "alone" is not knowledge.

Now, yes. Veda alone is not knowledge. But veda is certainly irrefutable knowledge. Though vedas contain knowledge about several things, people attach a lot of importance to one particular branch of knowledge which is important. Vedas give us knowledge about God. This is now a very vast subject and involves the "science of knowing" -epistemology. Better read a book on Epistemology.

Mr. Ganesh my next door neighbor, is not the Parvati Putra Ganesh. So you do not find him with a trunk.

That is okay.
You know very well about your next door neighbour Ganesh-like how tall he is, what is his weight, color, educational achievements, family, wealth, job, moods etc., etc., Be happy with that knowledge.

But at times your mind may search for answers to questions like what is God and you may want to find out about Ganesh murthy in the temple and why he is elephant faced. It is then that you are directed to Vedas. A deep study of vedas will give you answers which you will not get elsewhere. That is why vedas are knowledge.
 
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Mr. Vaagmi,
You are back to your normal argumentative for the sake of being opposed to the poster.
I have nothing to say to you.
 
Mr. Vaagmi,
You are back to your normal argumentative for the sake of being opposed to the poster.
I have nothing to say to you.
Dear friend,
If I say that you are back to your normal way of looking for escape routes aftero painting yourself into a corner, you may feel hurt. Moreover that will be being judgmental on my part. So I am not saying that . Come back when you have something meaningful to say. Thanks.
 
Dear friend,
If I say that you are back to your normal way of looking for escape routes aftero painting yourself into a corner, you may feel hurt. Moreover that will be being judgmental on my part. So I am not saying that Come back when you have something meaningful to say. Thanks.


Don't break your arm trying to pat yourself in the back. You are not my audience.
You are important enough that I have to please you.
 
Don't break your arm trying to pat yourself in the back. You are not my audience.
You are important enough that I have to please you.

So the elephant size ego is in smithereens. LOL.
Why do you imagine that I expect you to please me.
You just do not exist the moment I shut down the computer.
Take care.
You can never end a conversation without taking it to a personal level. That is in your nature.
God bless you my friend. Bye. I will not rob you of your sleep tonight. I will not answer your post anymore this night.
 
The trayi-veda, the Rg, Yajur, sAma are those that describe Quantum, Classical and biological knowledge. rk are the 'verses' of quantum world, yaju is the sacrifice/yajna of the classical world and sa-ama (with soul) is the biological world. But we have lost most of them or a large part of them. Today these are all mixed-up though we can see salient features of Yajur and Rg veda more clearly.
The atharva-veda is those that are knowledge of human inventions.-TBT

You give fascinating explanation and arrive at conclusions which totally escape me.

Contradicting your theory, I have come across yajush verses pertaining to animal and plant kingdom but do not recollect any sAmA verses on matters of biology. Will you kindly give one or two sAmans about biological world.

Also what do you exactly mean by "quantum world" and "classical world"..?
 
You give fascinating explanation and arrive at conclusions which totally escape me.

Contradicting your theory, I have come across yajush verses pertaining to animal and plant kingdom but do not recollect any sAmA verses on matters of biology. Will you kindly give one or two sAmans about biological world.

Also what do you exactly mean by "quantum world" and "classical world"..?

Here is a more detailed explanation what I meant..

https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=39191

-TBT
 
OMG! Prasad Ji and Vaagmi Ji argue like couples heading for a divorce.

Guys..dont divorce please.

They are an odd couple that make the forum interesting. They need each other.
Mr Vaagmi likes to watch and assess other people's ego ("elephant ego" he proclaims_. And he needs an ego to watch and imitate (monkey is his icon after all) . They are made for each other and may they live long happily arguing at this wonderful forum.

Go at each other guys, forum is watching LOL
 

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