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    BrhadAranyaka Upanishad - sloka 4.4.22 - Realizing Atman - Part 1


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    Background

    Asrama is a dharma, the law of the Universe. Whether one wishes or not they get subjected to this dharma. To be happy, it is better we understand this dharma and align our living to this dharma.

    There are four Asramas. Brahmacarya, gRhasta, vanaprastha and saMnyAsa. These are natural development stages in our life.

    We grow from being born into adults. This is brahmacarya. In this stage one should maximize learning, because our brains are suited to learn the maximum during this stage.

    Then as we grow into adulthood, we enjoy the dharma of the householder. Biologically, urges in us, make us to go for our mate, produce/protect kids, grow them up etc. This is gRhasta. Our body, brain and mind are best suited to do these functions in this stage.

    Then we retire from active personal life but will be able to contribute to the best of abilities. This is vanaprastha. Here our body cannot hold the pressures of gRhasta, but to the best of the abilities we can contribute. Our brain can do a lot of unlearning and re-learning in this stage. Our wisdom is more useful than our body in this stage of life. We stay put in a place and contribute.

    Finally even our brain faculties start giving up. We enter into saMnyAsa. saMnyAsa means giving up or stage of abandoning. Whether we want or not, our body and mind will abandon. We grow more detached from individuals. Unlike in vanaprastha there is no specific contribution from us to society. But yet different people can learn from our experiences. The best in this stage is to keep physically moving around to keep us physically healthy and totally detached from the world to keep us mentally healthy.

    These stages are how our lives evolve. If we align our mind and expectations to these stages of life, we live happily.

    There is this question on entering saMnyAsa directly from brahmacarya. Theology is divided on it. As I wrote Asrama is a dharma. It is the law. Human beings have the option to live life anyway they want. They can claim to go to saMnyAsa from anywhere. But unless they are 'vi-rajet' (lack of energy/incapability), their biological urges will remain.

    But to my reading or scriptures, violating Asrama dharma is not mentioned in the scriptures. But different sages and seers have interpreted the slokas to mean that violation is allowed.


    Here is a translation of Brhadharanyaka Upanishad Sloka 4.4.22 and 4.4.23. Here Yajnavalkya is saying all these to Janaka.

    Brhadharanyaka Upanishad - Sloka 4.4.22


    Sloka 4.4.22.1

    sa vā eṣa mahānaja ātmā yo'yaṃ vij˝ānamayaḥ prāṇeṣu ya eṣo'ntarhṛdaya ākāśastasmi˝chete, sarvasya vaśī sarvasyeśānaḥ sarvasyādhipatiḥ;
    Translation

    With this great birthless Atma (mahAn aja Atma), which is in the logically analysing (vijnAnamaya) living (breathing/biological) beings (prAnesu), which is in (tasmin chete) the inner heart of the (antar hrdaya) empty space/vacuum (AkAZas), the one that resides in everything (sarvasya vasi), the one that rules everything (sarvasya iSAna), the lord of everything (sarvasya adipatih).

    Meaning


    The great birthless Atma is in the logically analysing, breathing/biological beings as well in the inner heart of the empty space/vacuum and thus is the one that resides in everything, rules everything, lord of everything.

    Sloka 4.4.22.2


    sa na sādhunā karmaṇā bhūyān, no evāsādhunā kanīyān; eṣa sarveśvaraḥ; eṣa bhūtādhipatiḥ, eṣa bhūtapālaḥ, eṣa seturvidharaṇa eṣāṃ lokānāmasaṃbhedāya;
    Translation

    Not with (sa na) sAdhu (pious)like (sadhuna) actions (karmana) it grows (bhUyAn), not with (na eva) impure deeds (asAdhuna) it reduces (kaniyan). This (esa) ruler of all (sarva iswarah), this lord of all matter and beings (esa bhuta adipatih), this protector (esa bhuta pAla), this bank-bearer of the different worlds.

    Meaning


    This Atma is not affected by pious activities, Not affected by what we consider as impure activities. This Atma is the ruler, protector, lord of all matter and beings. Like a bank that holds the river, it holds the different worlds in this Universe.

    Sloka 4.4.22.3


    tam etaṃ veda anuvacanena brāhmaṇā vividiṣanti yaj˝ena dānena tapasā'nāśakena; etameva viditvā munirbhavati |

    Translation


    Unto that Atma (tam) these (etam) by the knowledge of the verses (veda anu vacanena), the brAhmans desire to learn (brAhmana vividisanti), by yajna (yajnena), by dAna (dAnena), by destructive tapas (tapasA nAsakena), those understanding become the muni (etam eva viditva munir bhavati).

    Meaning


    Brahmans desire to learn that Atma by knowledge of the verses, by Yajna, by dAna, by destructive tapas etc. Those who understand that Atma are called the 'Muni'.

    Sloka 4.4.22.4


    etam eva pravrājino lokam icchantaḥ pravrajanti | etaddha sma vai tat pūrve vidvāṃsaḥ prajāṃ na kāmayante, kiṃ prajayā kariṣyāmo yeṣāṃ no'yamātmāyaṃ loka iti; te ha sma putraiṣaṇāyāśca vittaiṣaṇāyāśca lokaiṣaṇāyāśca vyutthāyātha bhikśācaryaṃ caranti; yā hyeva putraiṣaṇā sā vittaiṣaṇā, yā vittaiṣaṇā sā lokaiṣaṇā, ubhe hyete eṣaṇe eva bhavataḥ |

    Translation


    Those in (etam eva) the world (lokam) of pravrAjina (wanderers), desiring it (icchantah), they wander (pravrajanti). This it is said (etadd ha sma), that purva vidvamsah, did not desire children (prajAm na kAmayante), what children will do (kim prajAya karisyama) to us here (nah ayam), in the world (loka) of this Atma (Atma ayam). Saying this (te ha sma), the desire for putra (pura isanaya), desire for wealth (vitta isanaya) and the desire for the world (loka isanaya ca) abandon (vyutthAya), then (atha), get into (caranti) bhiksacaryam. Which indeed (yA hy eva) the desire for children (putraisana) , that/she (sA) is desire for wealth (vittaisana), which indeed (yA hy eva) the desire for wealth (vittasaina) that/she (sA) is desire for the worlds (lokaisana). Both of these (ubhe hy ete) ardent desires (esane) are your desires (eva bhavatah)

    Meaning


    Those in the world of pravrAjina (wanderers), desiring that Atma, they wander/search. It is said that the pUrva vidvamsa, did not desire children. What will children do to us here in the world of this Atma..? Saying this they abandoned the desire for children, wealth and the worlds and got into bhiksacarya. What indeed is the desire for children is the desire for wealth. What indeed is desire for wealth is the desire for the worlds. It means the desire for children, wealth and worlds are all same. Both of these, the desire for Atma and other desires, are all your desires.

    pUrva means earlier or opposite. vidvamsah are knowledgeable/learned people. The pUrva vidvamsah could mean the earlier knowledgeable people or opposite of knowledgeable people (not really learned people).

    Such people (earlier or opposite of learned) did not desire children. What is to be done by children to us here in this world of Atma..? Saying this they abandoned the desires for putra, wealth and world, got into bhiksacarya.

    But the desire for children, wealth and the worlds are one the same. Both the desire for Atma and our other desires are all just your desires.

    Sloka 4.4.22.5


    sa eṣa neti netyātmā, agṛhyo nahi gṛhyate, aśīryo nahi śīryate, asaṅgo nahi sajyate, asito na vyathate, na riṣyati; etam u ha evaite (eva etat) na tarata iti—ataḥ pāpamakaravamiti, ataḥ kalyāṇamakaravamiti; ubhe u haivaiṣa (ha eva esa) ete tarati, nainaṃ (na enAm) kṛtākṛte tapataḥ
    Translation

    This with "not this not this Atma" (sa esa na iti na it Atma), Non-capturable/seizable (agrhya), never captured/seized (nahi grhyate), imperceptible/without head (azirya) , never perceived (nahi ziryate), un-attached (asangha), never attachable (nahi sajyate), dark/unbound (asIta) never agitated/perturbed/afflicted/pained/distressed (na vyathate), never crossed (na tarati), not burnt by actions or inactions (na enAm krta akrta tapatah).

    Meaning


    Atma is 'not this, not this', not capturable, never captured, imperceptible, never perceived, unattached, never attachable, non-interactive (hence dark or unbound) and never interacted with anything, never crossed by anyone, not burnt by our actions or inactions.

    The Atma that the pravrAjina desire to realize, for which they wander, is not capturable, not perceivable, not attachable, not interactive, not affected by our actions or inactions.

    So actions in this Universe that we perform to realize that Atman, like bhikSa-carya are only our desire and no more than that, for Atma is beyond all of us.

    Summary of Sloka 4.4.22


    The great birthless Atma is in the logically analysing, breathing/biological beings as well in the inner heart of the empty space/vacuum and thus is the one that resides in everything, rules everything, lord of everything.

    This Atma is not affected by pious activities, Not affected by what we consider as impure activities. This Atma is the ruler, protector, lord of all matter and beings. Like a bank that holds the river, it holds the different worlds in this Universe.

    Brahmans desire to learn that Atma by knowledge of the verses, by Yajna, by dAna, by destructive tapas etc. Those who understand that Atma are called the 'Muni'.

    Those in the world of pravrAjina (wanderers), desiring that Atma, they wander/search. It is said that the pUrva vidvamsa, did not desire children. What will children do to us here in the world of this Atma..? Saying this they abandoned the desire for children, wealth and the worlds and got into bhiksacarya. What indeed is the desire for children is the desire for wealth. What indeed is desire for wealth is the desire for the worlds. It means the desire for children, wealth and worlds are all same.

    Both of these, the desire for Atma and other desires, are all your desires, says Yajnavalkya to Janaka.

    pUrva means earlier or opposite. vidvamsah are knowledgeable/learned people. The pUrva vidvamsah could mean the earlier knowledgeable people or opposite of knowledgeable people (not fully learned people).

    Such people (earlier or opposite of learned) did not desire children. What is to be done by children to us here in this world of Atma..? Saying this they abandoned the desires for putra, wealth and world, got into bhiksacarya.

    But the desire for children, wealth and the worlds are one the same. Both the desire for Atma and our other desires are all just your desires (says Yajnavalkya to Janaka).

    Atma is 'not this, not this', not capturable, never captured, imperceptible, never perceived, unattached, never attachable, non-interactive (hence dark or unbound) and never interacted with anything, never crossed by anyone, not burnt by our actions or inactions.

    The Atma that the pravrAjina/brAhmana desire to realize, for which they wander/perform Yajna/dAna/destructive tapas or learn verses, is not capturable, not perceivable, not attachable, not interactive, not affected by our actions or inactions.

    So actions in this Universe that we perform to realize that Atman, like bhikSa-carya/yajna/dAna/destructive tapas/learn verses are only our desires and no more than that, for Atma is beyond all of these

    Then how do we realize that Atman..?

    -Continued to Sloka 4.4.23


    -TBT
    Last edited by thebigthinkg; 04-08-2018 at 03:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigthinkg View Post
    There is this question on entering saMnyAsa directly from brahmacarya. Theology is divided on it.
    -TBT
    To say that theology is divided on this issue, you need to present divided perspectives/translations of theological works, be they ancient and modern. If all acharyas (irrespective of their other divisions, like Vaishnava/Saiva or Advaita/Dvaita etc) interpret something consistently in one way, and you alone choose to interpret it in another way, that cannot mean a broad theological division, of course unless you create your own independent Sanskrit dictionary and make your translations of theological works, and start a sect of your own

    As I wrote Asrama is a dharma. It is the law.


    Asrama is a dharma. But the message of the Upanishads is Atma jnanam which is beyond dharma-adharma.

    Human beings have the option to live life anyway they want. They can claim to go to saMnyAsa from anywhere.
    For salvation, to go to Sannyasa is the rule for all humans. But if someone wants to first enjoy this world, then Asrama dharma is prescribed for them, so they will be disgusted by it and will move to Sannyasa at the end.

    I had clearly explained this in the below message, about a week ago.

    https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showth...603#post409603

    But unless they are 'vi-rajet' (lack of energy/incapability), their biological urges will remain.
    I don't know why you again presume this wrong translation of the word virajet, while in the earlier discussion, you ended up by doubting this.

    But to my reading or scriptures, violating Asrama dharma is not mentioned in the scriptures. But different sages and seers have interpreted the slokas to mean that violation is allowed.
    There is no 'violation', since a bare reading of the Jabala upanishad will clearly show that Sannyasa is the goal, the rule. This is how all sages and seers have interpreted the texts. You cannot show a single sage/seer who has interpreted the slokas to mean a 'violation'. Hence there is no theological division in this regard.

    But as I mentioned earlier, you have all the right to (mis)interpret the scriptures in your whichever way, and start a sect of your own too

    Last edited by KRN; 07-08-2018 at 11:54 AM.
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    If you find anything wrong in the translation that I did in Part 1 and 2 where Yajnavalkya tells Janaka that he has achieved that jnAna and the reasons for it, you can highlight.

    Otherwise I think the Br Up 4.4.22 and 23 explains what you need sufficiently and well.

    I always wrote, going to saMnyAsa (as part of Asrama dharma) is a rule, but going to saMnyAsa from other Asramas than Vanaprastha is an exception and that's exactly what the Jabala Upanishad says. It defines the rule first and says in case of virajet go to saMnyAsa. I see that as an exception.

    As far as dictionaries are concerned, this is how viraja and viraga are defined.

    Vi-raja is free from dirt, clean etc. rajas is indeed passion, figuratively as the dictionary says. Passion is nothing but energy. Vi-rajas is indeed lack of passion, lack of energy. If one loses all the passion/energy, then that person can go to saMnyAsa.

    Vi-raga is free from color/likes, aversion etc, VairAgyam is ascetism as it is aversion (to worldly objects and desires).

    viraja (3. %{vi+raja} for %{rajas}) mf(%{A})n. free from dust , clean , pure (also fig. `" free from passion "') S3Br. MBh. &c. ; free from the menstrual excretion L. ; m. N. of a Marut-vat Hariv. ; of a son of Tvasht2r2i BhP. ; of a son of Pu1rn2iman ib. ; of a pupil of Ja1tu1karn2ya ib. ; of the world of Buddha Padma-prabha SaddhP. ; (pl.) of a class of gods under Manu Sa1varn2i BhP. ; (%{A}) f. Panicum Dactylon (= %{dUrA}) MBh. (= %{kapitthAnI} L.) ; of the wife of Nahusha (spiritual daughter of a class of Pitr2is called Su-svadhas or Sva.svadhas) Hariv. ; of a mistress of Kr2ishn2a (who was changed into a river) Pan5car. ; of a Ra1kshasi1 Cat. ; n. N. of a place of pilgrimage MBh. ; %{-prabha} m. N. of a Buddha Buddh. ; %{-loka} m. N. of a partic. world , VB. ; %{-jA7kSa} m. N. of a mountain (to the north of Meru) Ma1rkP. ; %{-jAkSetra} n. N. of a sacred district Cat. ; %{-je7zvarI} f. N. of Ra1dha1 Pan5car

    virAga2 m. (for 1. see p. 952 , col. 1) change or loss of colour Naish. ; excitement , irritation Pa1n2. 6-4 , 91 ; aversion , dislike or indifference to (loc. abl. , or comp.) Ka1v. Ra1jat. BhP. ; indifference to external things or worldly objects Sa1m2khyak. ; the faulty suppression of a sound in pronunciation , RPra1t [982,2] ; a partic. high number Buddh. ; %{-vat} mfn. indifferent (%{sarvatra} , `" to everything "') Cat. ; %{-viSabhRt} mfn. cherishing the poison of dislike or aversion MW.

    vairAgyan. change or loss of colour , growing pale Sus3r. Ka1m. ; disgust , aversion , distaste for or loathing of (loc. abl. , or comp.) Bhag. Ragh. &c. ; freedom from all worldly desires , indifference to worldly objects and to life , asceticism Up. MBh. &c

    The problem I see trying to connect Vi-raja with VairAgyam which is derived from Vi-raga.

    Another problem I see is, the person going to kAsi yAtra is not having lack of passion. He is not leaving passion. So that's not what it is.

    Another problem I see is the Atma jnAnam is not going to saMnyAsa at all. Br. Up. 4.4.22 and 4.4.23 explains what it is.

    -TBT




    Last edited by thebigthinkg; 07-08-2018 at 04:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigthinkg View Post
    If you find anything wrong in the translation that I did in Part 1 and 2 where Yajnavalkya tells Janaka that he has achieved that jnAna and the reasons for it, you can highlight.

    Otherwise I think the Br Up 4.4.22 and 23 explains what you need sufficiently and well.
    I just replied to what you have given as background information. Since you mentioned about a theological divide, I asked why, because to my knowledge all leaders are in alignment in this regard.

    Br Up 3.5.1 and 4.4.22 explains Sannyasa as a voluntary giving up, not a forced one, not something one does on old age, due to a lack of energy. There is no reference to asrama dharma in the passage. Nor to old age. A person lacking energy due to old age, might still entertain eshanas/desires. As long as life lasts, he will find the means to satisfy the desires and will not simply abandon the sources of these desires. An ordinary old person might be devoid of knowledge of Atman. That is why the passage explicitly says of Sannyasam 'tam atmanam viditva' - (knowing that Atman).

    I always wrote, going to saMnyAsa (as part of Asrama dharma) is a rule, but going to saMnyAsa from other Asramas than Vanaprastha is an exception and that's exactly what the Jabala Upanishad says. It defines the rule first and says in case of virajet go to saMnyAsa. I see that as an exception.
    If the rule was that Sannyasa must be taken only at the end of Asramas, Brih Up which repeatedly deals with Sannyasa, would have mentioned it somewhere. Whereas the whole treatment of Brih Up is to slowly explain that all worldly karma lead one to transient results of the 3 eshanas kind and only eshana tyagam will lead to Atmajnanam.

    Moreover, in Jabala upanishad, if the concluding part is an exception, then that would have been mentioned explicitly.

    You have said that Sannyasa is adopted when "brain faculties start giving up", when the body and mind will abandon. If that is the case, where is the logic in such an old person giving up his home and adopt bhikshacharyam?

    As far as dictionaries are concerned, this is how viraja and viraga are defined.

    Vi-raja is free from dirt, clean etc. rajas is indeed passion, figuratively as the dictionary says. Passion is nothing but energy. Vi-rajas is indeed lack of passion, lack of energy. If one loses all the passion/energy, then that person can go to saMnyAsa.


    Passion is diversion of excess energy into channels like kama, krodha etc. Then how can lack of passion be lack of all energy? That is faulty logic. Virajas is a state of equilibrium where a person diverts his energy away from all external desires, and turns it inward, to perceive the Atman as per the Katha Up sloka 2.1.1-4.


    viraja (3. %{vi+raja} for %{rajas}) mf(%{A})n. free from dust , clean , pure (also fig. `" free from passion "') S3Br. MBh. &c. ; free from the menstrual excretion L. ; m. N. of a Marut-vat Hariv. ; of a son of Tvasht2r2i BhP. ; of a son of Pu1rn2iman ib. ; of a pupil of Ja1tu1karn2ya ib. ; of the world of Buddha Padma-prabha SaddhP. ; (pl.) of a class of gods under Manu Sa1varn2i BhP. ; (%{A}) f. Panicum Dactylon (= %{dUrA}) MBh. (= %{kapitthAnI} L.) ; of the wife of Nahusha (spiritual daughter of a class of Pitr2is called Su-svadhas or Sva.svadhas) Hariv. ; of a mistress of Kr2ishn2a (who was changed into a river) Pan5car. ; of a Ra1kshasi1 Cat. ; n. N. of a place of pilgrimage MBh. ; %{-prabha} m. N. of a Buddha Buddh. ; %{-loka} m. N. of a partic. world , VB. ; %{-jA7kSa} m. N. of a mountain (to the north of Meru) Ma1rkP. ; %{-jAkSetra} n. N. of a sacred district Cat. ; %{-je7zvarI} f. N. of Ra1dha1 Pan5car

    virAga2 m. (for 1. see p. 952 , col. 1) change or loss of colour Naish. ; excitement , irritation Pa1n2. 6-4 , 91 ; aversion , dislike or indifference to (loc. abl. , or comp.) Ka1v. Ra1jat. BhP. ; indifference to external things or worldly objects Sa1m2khyak. ; the faulty suppression of a sound in pronunciation , RPra1t [982,2] ; a partic. high number Buddh. ; %{-vat} mfn. indifferent (%{sarvatra} , `" to everything "') Cat. ; %{-viSabhRt} mfn. cherishing the poison of dislike or aversion MW.

    vairAgyan. change or loss of colour , growing pale Sus3r. Ka1m. ; disgust , aversion , distaste for or loathing of (loc. abl. , or comp.) Bhag. Ragh. &c. ; freedom from all worldly desires , indifference to worldly objects and to life , asceticism Up. MBh. &c

    The problem I see trying to connect Vi-raja with VairAgyam which is derived from Vi-raga.
    You are side stepping the issue. I never said you should connect vi-raja with Vairagyam. I said they are not dissimilar words. In all my earlier messages I connected vi-raja with eshana-tyagam which indicates detachment. If you don't want to connect vi-raja with Vairagyam, then don't. The issue here is with your translation of vi-rajas as 'lack of energy' which is a wholly different and incorrect meaning altogether.

    You have translated eshana-vyuththanam above as 'abandoning the desire for children, wealth, world'

    Do you see a problem in connecting the word Vi-raja with the eshana-vyuththanam above?

    And the word Vairagyam, as you have translated above means, among other things, freedom, indifference to worldly desires. There is no mention in your translation, anywhere that Vairagyam must a characteristic of old age or an otherwise lack of energy. Indifference to something can be due to many reasons.

    Another problem I see is, the person going to kAsi yAtra is not having lack of passion. He is not leaving passion. So that's not what it is.
    The expectation with marriage is, he should be capable of giving birth to children. Unless he is a Rishi like Veda Vyasa, a certain amount of passion is required in marriage. So if he goes on kasi yatra, he can be considered as expressing his aversion for the marital state, along with it's additional matters like passion for having children and relationships. This is in good sync with Brih Up 3.5.1 and 4.4.22 which expresses a parivrajaka as having aversion to children and other worldly pleasures.

    Another problem I see is the Atma jnAnam is not going to saMnyAsa at all. Br. Up. 4.4.22 and 4.4.23 explains what it is.
    I have answered reg Brih Up.

    There are many other places in scriptures where Sannyasa is defined. Krishna defines Sannyasa in Gita 5.3. How do you align that definition with your concept of Sannyasi as an old person with fading faculties, lacking all energy?
    Last edited by KRN; 07-08-2018 at 10:42 PM.
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    TBT ji,

    I appreciate your courteous response. I had earlier privately decided to not indulge in such debates anymore, as it is a big timewaster, and also detrimental to my spiritual goals. Somehow I forgot it yesterday. I am hereby stopping my participation all such debates in this forum. Writing here, just to reinforce my decision

    Best wishes
    KRN
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    I have not studied these topics before this and do not have Sanskrit knowledge to comment in detail. But I have enough sense to smell BS, confusion and arguing on trivial points when I come across such threads and posts.

    The thread as presented and unfolded is hardly uplifting. It really comes across as repeating something without truly understanding the significance.


    The reason for my sharing this is because of what Mr KRN said about the debate taking him away from his spiritual goals. I think I would better appreciate reading discussions that speaks to the wisdom of the teachings.

    This is just my opinion on the posts and is not intended to attack any person
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigthinkg View Post
    If you find anything wrong in the translation that I did in Part 1 and 2 where Yajnavalkya tells Janaka that he has achieved that jnAna and the reasons for it, you can highlight.

    Otherwise I think the Br Up 4.4.22 and 23 explains what you need sufficiently and well.

    I always wrote, going to saMnyAsa (as part of Asrama dharma) is a rule, but going to saMnyAsa from other Asramas than Vanaprastha is an exception and that's exactly what the Jabala Upanishad says. It defines the rule first and says in case of virajet go to saMnyAsa. I see that as an exception.

    As far as dictionaries are concerned, this is how viraja and viraga are defined.

    Vi-raja is free from dirt, clean etc. rajas is indeed passion, figuratively as the dictionary says. Passion is nothing but energy. Vi-rajas is indeed lack of passion, lack of energy. If one loses all the passion/energy, then that person can go to saMnyAsa.

    Vi-raga is free from color/likes, aversion etc, VairAgyam is ascetism as it is aversion (to worldly objects and desires).

    viraja (3. %{vi+raja} for %{rajas}) mf(%{A})n. free from dust , clean , pure (also fig. `" free from passion "') S3Br. MBh. &c. ; free from the menstrual excretion L. ; m. N. of a Marut-vat Hariv. ; of a son of Tvasht2r2i BhP. ; of a son of Pu1rn2iman ib. ; of a pupil of Ja1tu1karn2ya ib. ; of the world of Buddha Padma-prabha SaddhP. ; (pl.) of a class of gods under Manu Sa1varn2i BhP. ; (%{A}) f. Panicum Dactylon (= %{dUrA}) MBh. (= %{kapitthAnI} L.) ; of the wife of Nahusha (spiritual daughter of a class of Pitr2is called Su-svadhas or Sva.svadhas) Hariv. ; of a mistress of Kr2ishn2a (who was changed into a river) Pan5car. ; of a Ra1kshasi1 Cat. ; n. N. of a place of pilgrimage MBh. ; %{-prabha} m. N. of a Buddha Buddh. ; %{-loka} m. N. of a partic. world , VB. ; %{-jA7kSa} m. N. of a mountain (to the north of Meru) Ma1rkP. ; %{-jAkSetra} n. N. of a sacred district Cat. ; %{-je7zvarI} f. N. of Ra1dha1 Pan5car

    virAga2 m. (for 1. see p. 952 , col. 1) change or loss of colour Naish. ; excitement , irritation Pa1n2. 6-4 , 91 ; aversion , dislike or indifference to (loc. abl. , or comp.) Ka1v. Ra1jat. BhP. ; indifference to external things or worldly objects Sa1m2khyak. ; the faulty suppression of a sound in pronunciation , RPra1t [982,2] ; a partic. high number Buddh. ; %{-vat} mfn. indifferent (%{sarvatra} , `" to everything "') Cat. ; %{-viSabhRt} mfn. cherishing the poison of dislike or aversion MW.

    vairAgyan. change or loss of colour , growing pale Sus3r. Ka1m. ; disgust , aversion , distaste for or loathing of (loc. abl. , or comp.) Bhag. Ragh. &c. ; freedom from all worldly desires , indifference to worldly objects and to life , asceticism Up. MBh. &c

    The problem I see trying to connect Vi-raja with VairAgyam which is derived from Vi-raga.

    Another problem I see is, the person going to kAsi yAtra is not having lack of passion. He is not leaving passion. So that's not what it is.

    Another problem I see is the Atma jnAnam is not going to saMnyAsa at all. Br. Up. 4.4.22 and 4.4.23 explains what it is.

    -TBT




    You said a person going for Kasi Yatra is not having lack of passion..he is not leaving passion.
    May be the whole disconnect here is a lack of testosterone.

    Let me explain further..when a person lacks Testosterone...he doesnt really have lack of passion..he is not giving up passion but he shows a lack of expression due to the low levels of Testosterone.

    Anyway at a Laukika level instead of going to the root endocrinal cause of the lack of Testosterone..we can fix the system like this...

    Viraja..Vairagya..VIAGRA...VyAghra( Tiger)...thats one heck of a Yatra!
    Last edited by renuka; 09-08-2018 at 07:36 AM.
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    Just to clarify my post a little - my withdrawing is not only from this debate but from all such debates in which I had participated in this forum in the past. It is not in any way related to TBT ji or to the areas of my agreement/disagreement with him or with anyone else. It is entirely out of a (personal) realisation that indulging in such online debates may not be suitable or benefitful to the spiritual aspirant.
    Last edited by KRN; 09-08-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRN View Post
    Just to clarify my post a little - my withdrawing is not only from this debate but from all such debates in which I had participated in this forum in the past. It is not in any way related to TBT ji or to the areas of my agreement/disagreement with him or with anyone else. It is entirely out of a (personal) realisation that indulging in such online debates may not be suitable or benefitful to the spiritual aspirant.
    No problems..
    Actually finally there is not even a spiritual pursuit...its just a perception due to a personal need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRN View Post
    TBT ji,

    I appreciate your courteous response. I had earlier privately decided to not indulge in such debates anymore, as it is a big timewaster, and also detrimental to my spiritual goals. Somehow I forgot it yesterday. I am hereby stopping my participation all such debates in this forum. Writing here, just to reinforce my decision

    Best wishes
    KRN
    Sir

    Your thoughts are just instances of the Atman in you expressing itself, like mine. The beauty of it is, some of what you see, I do not and some of what I see, you do not. Everyone of us see what THAT wants to see.

    (In my view) Atma jnAna is all about enjoying these multiple perspectives. As multiple colors make white, multiple perspectives lead us towards that realization, but we can never reach it, as our capabilities and perspectives are limited, but improving. This is neither any philosophy, nor I am a guru who has/want the ability to influence other beings.

    Rather i am yet another being in this Universe of zillions of beings along with you and enjoying whatever is here.

    Surely enjoy your spiritual pursuit and if you have any specific inputs on the translation or interpretation, pl. do share anytime.

    -TBT

    -TBT
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