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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad1 View Post
    Sir,
    I do not want to be contentious...................
    This is the "debates and discussions" section...

    None of us know for sure what was the exact timeline of Krishna.
    Some of the sites:
    Sir, you keep copy/pasting random material from websites. Maybe you are not aware that many of these sites have no credibility whatsoever. To gain real understanding, you need to study the original works on Krishna, like the Srimad Bhagavatham, Harivamsam, Vishnu Puranam....or the original works written by Adi Sankaracharya...like the Bhashyams....Once you do that, you will not be making bigoted and dismissive/disparaging statements on Bhakti etc here...

    The exact timeline of lord Krishna is very clear, and can be learnt by perusing the Mahabharatam, and Harivamsam. Maybe the owners of the websites you have been referring to, are ignorant of this.
    Last edited by KRN; 16-05-2018 at 08:25 PM.
  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad1 View Post
    Sir,
    I do not want to argue with you, but your "facts" are off.
    Do you know at what age Krishna left Gokul?
    He was 14 when he defeated Kansa, in Mathura. He never returned to Gokul.
    Our knowledge of Krishna is all based on the scriptural references to his life.

    There's no scriptural reference that Krishna was aged 14, when he killed Kamsa.
    Nor is there any scriptural reference that clearly state Krishna never returned to Gokulam, either.

    Gopies played with him as a child and not as a lover.
    The Gopies doing the raslila with adult Krishna is a pure poetic imagination.
    Whereas ALL scriptures like Vishnu Puranam, Bhagavatham clearly state that Gopis played with him as a lover!
    So, one can never dismiss the rasalila as a poetic imagination. It might, or might not have happened.

    it happens that all "your facts" are off
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRN View Post
    Our knowledge of Krishna is all based on the scriptural references to his life.

    There's no scriptural reference that Krishna was aged 14, when he killed Kamsa.
    Nor is there any scriptural reference that clearly state Krishna never returned to Gokulam, either.



    Whereas ALL scriptures like Vishnu Puranam, Bhagavatham clearly state that Gopis played with him as a lover!
    So, one can never dismiss the rasalila as a poetic imagination. It might, or might not have happened.

    it happens that all "your facts" are off

    Your smugness is obvious.

    Have you seen the definition of the word scripture?


    • Scripture : the books of either the Old Testament or the New Testament or of both : the Bible
    • scriptures : the sacred writings of a religion

      Is there any difference between scripture and Fiction?

      If scripture was what the LORD stated, then there should not be any contradictions.
      All scriptures must say the same thing.
      How come Ramayana by Tulsidas differs from Ramayana by Valmiki.

      It is because it is a story narrated by different people.

    As I stated before there is no honest History in any of the "SCRIPTURES". They are parables at best.

    But you have hijacked the thread from Bhakti to History.
    Last edited by prasad1; 16-05-2018 at 10:04 PM.
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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRN View Post
    Bhakti is no more, nor less superstitious in content than some portions of the Upanishads, which form the basis of the Vedanta. I find that there is a lot of misconception about Bhakti in this forum, that makes people denigrate it! To tarnish something, without knowing what it really is, is also a kind of superstition or bigotry! Adi Sankaracharya who wrote that excellent Bhashyam to Brahma Sutram, is the perfect example of both Bhakti and Vedanta merging in one voice.
    Not sure what your point is. Upanishads also have superstitious content therefore we must not put superstitions down??? I do not know enough to debate but I know something does not resonate right with your statements. There is some inconsistency. I think there is correct understanding of Bhakthi that is in our scriptures. But today's practice is far from that
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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad1 View Post
    Your smugness is obvious.

    Have you seen the definition of the word scripture?


    • Scripture : the books of either the Old Testament or the New Testament or of both : the Bible
    • scriptures : the sacred writings of a religion

      Is there any difference between scripture and Fiction?

      If scripture was what the LORD stated, then there should not be any contradictions.
      All scriptures must say the same thing.
      How come Ramayana by Tulsidas differs from Ramayana by Valmiki.

      It is because it is a story narrated by different people.

    As I stated before there is no honest History in any of the "SCRIPTURES". They are parables at best.

    But you have hijacked the thread from Bhakti to History.
    The bolded part is an attack on a person and degenerates an otherwise good discussion
  9. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRN View Post
    Are you repudiating the entire Yoga sastra which claim that man can, by practising certain yogic techniques, overcome many of the limitations imposed by nature on his body/mind? Then are you saying, all the Yogis including Rishi Patanjali the author of Yoga sutra, were liars or charlatans?

    I do not know their work. People claim they did magic by going against natural laws. That is not possible. If there is someone who has such powers let them come forward and be subjected to the probing of true scientists. I was told Sathya Sai Baba and his miracles are off limits for discussions here in this forum. Glory of Baba has to do with good things he did (hospitals, positive impact in the world) but there are enough people to refute the miracles with proof ( a low point in his career I think). With miracles and magic you are talking about your personal beliefs that cannot be debated here.

    Nobody can go against the true laws of nature. But there are many hidden depths to the laws of nature. What the common man knows and assumes to be the 'laws of nature' is just the tip of the iceberg. Whereas the Rishis of the Yoga sastra delved deep, and discovered hidden mysteries. With better awareness of nature's laws, they were/are able to perform things, well within the laws of nature, that the ignorant man assumes to be miracles.

    Just because there are unknowns does not mean there are not methods to prove rejection of miracles. Let someone with power come forward for scientific examination. The bolder part above is your belief only and not a fact

    Who really knows anything about nature, any way? To give an example, the latest cosmological discoveries reveal that 96% of nature is pervaded with what astronomers call 'dark energy' and 'dark matter'. What this 'dark energy' or 'dark matter' is, they are unable to clearly explain either. Here I am not even talking about black holes, which at least can be understood in a certain way. There is too much mystery out there, my friend.

    I agree the nature can never be fully understood. But we can know when there are absurdities and claims. Nature is unyielding to anyone. If there are other laws let there be a study and conclusion. Until then it is all folklore

    Sir, my suggestion to you is to look directly into the Bhashyams written by Sankaracharya, on the Gita, Upanishads and Brahma Sutram, either in the original Sanskrit or in a good translation. Then see for yourself what Adi Sankaracharya really wrote, and afterwards share here what you learnt from the exercise. That will be a better value addition to the forum that merely stating your beliefs, assumptions, or what some secondary person told you.

    I do not know many things but I am good at spotting inconsistencies and illogical statements. I have great respect for our teachings. I prefer to start out by asking people, questioning them like I am doing now for starters and then reaching out to experts. When I retire I will take up your suggestions.

    For the record I am stating below - (this is based on my perusal in original Sanskrit, of those works, which all scholars accept in unison, as having been written by Adi Sankaracharya)

    1) Adi Sankaracharya was an ardent Krishna Bhakta and Vyasa Bhakta.
    2) He accepted the Mahabharata Stories as entirely true accounts
    3) He accepted lord Krishna's Vishwaroopa Darsanam occurring in the Gita, which is a wonderful miracle in conventional understanding, as a very true incident happening in the battlefield, and definitely not in a "symbolically significant way"
    4) He was a Siva bhakta who accepted the story of Arjuna's worship/meeting with lord Shiva as a true incident
    5) He accepted Krishna as an incarnation of Lord Narayana or Vishnu

    If anyone would like to contest these statements, by providing references to the original works by Adi Sankaracharya, I am ready for a debate.

    My friend, it is the other way around. Since you are the most educated on such things why dont your provide detailed proof , actual citations. There is only one other member who is not active anymore who claimed to have studied Bhashyam etc in Sanskrit from teachers. Even if he does not respond, I will try to reach out to some experts. Please provide facts, not your beliefs or conclusions.

    Please provide actual passages in Sanskrit and translations for item 3, and 4 and anything else relevant. I know someone who knows someone that will help further this debate. Like Ramana Maharishi, I think Sankaracharya never claimed to do miracles or believe in miracles. Symbolically significant way is the only way to reconcile the stories of Lord Krishna's Vishwaroopam. Please provide direct statements in Sanskrit of Sankaracharya of this miracle and his acceptance of this as a miracle.
    I have regard for the number of things you have studied. You have lot to share here. Have provided my responses in blue.

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad1 View Post
    ............
    Have you seen the definition of the word scripture?


    • Scripture : the books of either the Old Testament or the New Testament or of both : the Bible
    • scriptures : the sacred writings of a religion
    • Is there any difference between scripture and Fiction?
    • Then, from where did you get your "facts" that Krishna left Gokul at age 14, and never returned there afterwards, based on which you conclude that the rasalila is a poetical imagination? Do you think that is fact, or fiction?
    Last edited by KRN; 17-05-2018 at 01:15 PM.
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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by a-TB View Post
    Not sure what your point is. Upanishads also have superstitious content therefore we must not put superstitions down??? I do not know enough to debate but I know something does not resonate right with your statements. There is some inconsistency. I think there is correct understanding of Bhakthi that is in our scriptures. But today's practice is far from that
    The point is, people who profess to follow Vedanta, have no right to throw stones at Bhaktas. Both philosophies in theory are fantastic, but in practice, can degenerate to superstition. Both philosophies have a clear place in our religion. The Brahma sutras talk about the nirguna brahman as well as saguna brahman. Acharya Sankara was one example of a person in whom Bhakti and Vedanta went hand in hand, and he never disparaged Bhakti in his Bhashyams (not sure whether I am repeating myself, but this bears repetition)
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  16. #39
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    I do not know their work. People claim they did magic by going against natural laws. That is not possible. If there is someone who has such powers let them come forward and be subjected to the probing of true scientists. I was told Sathya Sai Baba and his miracles are off limits for discussions here in this forum. Glory of Baba has to do with good things he did (hospitals, positive impact in the world) but there are enough people to refute the miracles with proof ( a low point in his career I think). With miracles and magic you are talking about your personal beliefs that cannot be debated here.


    I don't know whether Sathya Sai Baba claimed that his miracles were due to yoga or some other means. By yoga sastra I meant the Yoga Sampradaya that is one of the Six Darsanas of Sanatana Dharma.

    I think you have misstated my words. What I stated is, yoga sastra claims that man can overcome the limitations imposed by nature on his body/mind. I didn't state that yoga sastra claims to have overcome natural laws. The point is, according to Yoga philosophy, our real nature exceeds far beyond this limited mind/body concept. By exploiting the laws of "our real nature that extends beyond", the yogis perform things that the ordinary man, conditioned to an understanding that he is only this mind/body, understands as 'miracles'. So the Yogis are still working within the laws of nature.

    If you think that yoga sastra is only about miracles and magic as shown by Sathya Sai Baba, that again is a personal belief of yours. However since you admit to not knowing their work, I'd suggest you peruse the standard texts on Yoga and also try meeting up with a few Yogis, wherever they live

    Last edited by KRN; 17-05-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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  18. #40
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    Just because there are unknowns does not mean there are not methods to prove rejection of miracles. Let someone with power come forward for scientific examination. The bolder part above is your belief only and not a fact.
    I agree the nature can never be fully understood. But we can know when there are absurdities and claims. Nature is unyielding to anyone. If there are other laws let there be a study and conclusion. Until then it is all folklore


    Who said that the Yogis are above scientific examination? But if you argue Sathya Sai Baba performed some miracles (which I am not sure whether he attibuted to Yoga), and then you or someone else proved him false, and as a result the entire Yoga philosophy must be absurdity and claims, then your logic is flawed. We are talking about a science that has been time honoured part of the Indian religions for millennia, with it's own texts and detailed practices as well as adherents.

    By all means, let there be a thorough study and conclusion! Let doctoral students take up the Yoga sastra for their scientific research, approach the yogis and learn from them, try following their practices as prescribed in the texts, document their results! And then publish their claims and counter claims! Who is preventing them? Until that happens, a truly scientific mind will not dismiss it's claims!

    Even in the mainstream, what is commonly understood as 'yogasanas for health' is just a negligible part of Yoga philosophy. Despite that, modern scientific terminology is unable to explain how it really works in boosting one's health or in eliminating diseases. But just because of that, if you dismiss Yoga as folklore, well I think that tells more about yourself than about Yoga

    Last edited by KRN; 17-05-2018 at 02:03 PM.
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