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Gods under safe custody!

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Janaki Jambunathan

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God the Protector sometimes needs protection and kept under safe custody
Does it violate Agama Sastras?


the trust made independent inquiries and found that idols from temples were being shifted to icon centres in utter violation of the agama sastras (religious principles).


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...ent-idols-to-icon-centres/article22389779.ece


This is nothing new Ramanuja took Govindaraja Perumal from Chidambaram to Tirupathi Lokachariyan took Namperumal to Jothishkudi aka Kodikulam - a place very near to the Lakshmi Varhar temple we have built about 10 kms from my house in Madurai!

Sultan's daughter who handled god as a toy is revered as Thuluka Nachiyar! I


Should Agama take precedence when Gods are threatened and kept in safe custody?
 
I think the title is misleading.

How can you keep God in custody?

By definition:

Goda. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.


Instead of saying God under custody, one probably means an Idol in custody.


Then there should be no problem. An idol will have ownership, The owner can decide as to what they want to do with it.

 
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By definition:
God. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

Instead of saying God under custody, one probably means an Idol in custody.
Then there should be no problem. An idol will have ownership, The owner can decide as to what they want to do with it.

It is free-wheeling, self serving definitions <snipped> that have led to the present plight of temples, the idols in them and the properties made over to these temple in endowments by devotees.

Just answer this question please:

When you/people stand before a deity and pray do they stand and pray before a idol or a God?

It is simple. As long as it stays in the workshop of a sculptor it is an idol. The day it is installed in a temple and worship starts it is God.
 
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It is free-wheeling, self serving definitions like this made by shallow minds that have led to the present plight of temples, the idols in them and the properties made over to these temple in endowments by devotees.

Just answer this question please:

When you/people stand before a deity and pray do they stand and pray before a idol or a God?

It is simple. As long as it stays in the workshop of a sculptor it is an idol. The day it is installed in a temple and worship starts it is God.



True to your style you have to show your so-called "superior mind" in that respect you are akin to Trump.
You have an opinion express it, there is no need to disparage others. You need to learn to write properly in a civic forum.

You assume that people Pray to paper, stone, metal or other material, you are wrong. People converse with their God through any medium. The idols are symbols of God.


The original post was about a physical asset, not the metaphysical God.
But if you do not know the difference between the two one cannot explain that in this forum.

It is simple. As long as it stays in the workshop of a sculptor it is an idol. The day it is installed in a temple and worship starts it is God.



That is as ignorant as can be.



The Vedic Aryans did not worship idols although they invoked various gods and goddesses through elaborate rituals and sacrificial ceremonies. Idol worship probably entered the Vedic religion or Brahmanism in the post Vedic period.
 
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Hindus are not idol worshippers in the sense implied. We Hindus invoke the presence of God, or the Gods, from the higher, unseen worlds, into stone images so that we can experience His divine presence, commune with Him and receive His blessings.But the stone or metal Deity images are not mere symbols of the Gods; they are the form through which their love, power and blessings flood forth into this world.

We may liken this mystery to our ability to communicate with others through the telephone. We do not talk to the telephone; rather we use it as a means of communication with another person. Without the telephone, we could not converse across long distances; and without the sanctified icon in the temple we cannot easily commune with the Deity.


Divinity can also be invoked and felt in a sacred fire, or in a tree, or in the enlightened person of a satguru. In our temples, God is invoked in the sanctum by highly trained priests. Through the practice of yoga, or meditation, we invoke God inside ourself. Yoga means to yoke oneself to God within. The image or icon of worship is a focus for our prayers and devotions.


Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/hinduism/2002/06/do-hindus-worship-idols.aspx#cQFiFH7boBQUsWB8.99
 
For example, every year, in Mumbai, people bring clay images of Ganesha home, and worship him for a day or two, before immersing the image in the sea. The ritual makes one aware of the transitory nature of life – even God comes and goes, is created and destroyed. The ritual includes veneration (aradhana) which involves welcoming the divine, bathing them, offering them food, clothes, perfumes, lamps, incense, and finally words of praise, before bidding them farewell. Thus divinity is seen as a guest, and treated as guests are supposed to be treated.
Majority of Hindus understand the difference between God and a symbol of God (idol).


 
It is free-wheeling, self serving definitions like this made by shallow minds that have led to the present plight of temples, the idols in them and the properties made over to these temple in endowments by devotees.

Just answer this question please:

When you/people stand before a deity and pray do they stand and pray before a idol or a God?

It is simple. As long as it stays in the workshop of a sculptor it is an idol. The day it is installed in a temple and worship starts it is God.






Yajur veda 32:3 and 32:4:

na tasya pratima asti yasya nama mahadyasha
Hiranyagarbha ithyesha ma ma hingseethithyesha yasmanna jatha ithyesha
Esho ha deva prathishonu sarva poorvo ha jatha sa u grabho antha
Sa eva jatha sa janishyamaana prathyang janasthishttathi sarvathomugha

O God your mightines , supremeness is the top, you are unmeasurable, only you knows your true form, you created the things like sun, the God who is not born from anything is worshipable, let him not hurt us
The Supreme God is filled everywhere, he was in the mind and in the creations of all times , he is in everything in a secret form. he exists in all times, his strength is filled everywhere.










Ok...lets get technical!

Vedas clearly didnt talk about idols being used for prayer.

From what I read before that a temple is a construct that is a Yantra( a mechanism) that is constructed in a manner according to agamic shastras to harness the energy in.the cosmos to be transmitted to the population.

The idol is technically a CONDUCTOR to transmit this energy from the cosmos.

The idol has to be activated by certain rites and rituals to start functioning as a conductor.

Its like getting a nuclear reactor to function well for nuclear energy to be used by everyone in a beneficial manner.

Now..coming to being philosophical.

Is the idol in the sculptors shop God?
Is the idol in the temple God?

Well..the Universal consciousness is clearly present everywhere...if one only sees God in an idol in a temple but does not see God in an idol in a sculptors shop then his understanding of God is flawed.

Narasimha Avatar is a good example of all pervasiveness of God.

Prahlad saw God everywhere even in a pillar.

Was the pillar an idol activated by tantra and mantra?

No!

It was just a structure..inert ..no yantra or tantra or mantra but at a molecular level everything is pervaded by the Universal Consciousness.


So do we need idol for worship actually?
Yes and No depending on what our understanding is.
 
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My son made a clay idol of Ganesha and then performed Ganesh Puja. From the above confusing discussions regarding sculptor's workshop and what not, it is unclear when the idol became God and when it ceased to be divine.

It is better to keep an expansive mind. Only then Hinduism makes sense.

BTW, other religions have issues too. Facing Mecca during praying, savior's flesh and blood during communion etc.
 
If we have to make an idol then pray to it..why dont I just pray to the hands that made the idol?

So Biswaji..should I pray to the clay idol or to the hands that made it?
 
hi

we can say like this.......UTSAVA MURTHY IS IN CUSTODY....

I think Gods are not safe in their abode irrespective of being moolavar or utsavur Vathapi Ganapathy was taken away from Badami to Tirunchengattankudi - Ravana attempted to carry Atmalinga from Mt. Kailash to Srilanka!
 
I think Gods are not safe in their abode irrespective of being moolavar or utsavur Vathapi Ganapathy was taken away from Badami to Tirunchengattankudi - Ravana attempted to carry Atmalinga from Mt. Kailash to Srilanka!

Not to mention the golden Buddha idol which was taken away by Tirumanggai Alwar!

Alas! nothing is safe in this world.
 
If we have to make an idol then pray to it..why dont I just pray to the hands that made the idol?

So Biswaji..should I pray to the clay idol or to the hands that made it?

When you quote yajurveda (in previous msg), surely you would have come across the following mantrA in rudra praSnam both in krSna and Sukla yajurvedA:

"ayam mE hastO Bhagwan; ayam mE BhagavattaraH"

Original source, Rg Veda 10.61,12

and you can do translation much better than me.
 
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When you quote yajurveda (in previous msg), surely you would have come across the following mantrA in rudra praSnam both in krSna and Sukla yajurvedA:

"ayam mE hastO Bhagwan; ayam mE BhagavattaraH"

Original source, Rg Veda 10.61,12

and you can do translation much better than me.

Thank you for this..

I didnt know about this stanza.

I looked up online and found this link which explains well..
Pasting it for all to read.


The hand that touches Shiva is higher than God!
Prayer of the Day
Prayer from Rig Veda


अ॒यं मॆ॒ हस्तॊ॒ भग॑वान॒यं मॆ॒ भग॑वत्तरः ।
अ॒यं मॆ॑ वि॒श्वभॆ॑षजॊ॒ऽयं शि॒वाभि॑मर्शनः ॥ १०.६१.१२ ॥

Mantra as Romanized text

Om
ayaM mE hastO bhagavAnayaM mE bhagavattaraH |
ayaM mE vishvabhEShajO&yaM shivAbhimarshanaH || 10.61.12 ||
(ayaM mE hastO bhagavAn ayaM mE bhagavattaraH |
ayaM mE vishva bhEShajO ayaM shiva abhimarshanaH || )
Om
Meaning of the Prayer Mantra:

My this hand is the God. My this hand is higher than God!
My this hand holds all the healing. My this hand is the one that touches shiva!

Notes:

1. abhimarshanaH - touch.
2. The hand that touches and worships Lord shiva
is like the God itself. It is even higher than the God.
That holds the healing of all kinds for the world!


https://shaivam.org/daily-prayers-hindu-prayer-hub/the-hand-that-touches-shiva-is-higher-than-god
 
<if you have something to add to this thread without getting into a personal remark/attack against a member, please share. Else refrain from posting. Every member has the right to share his/her view as long as it does not cross the limits - Praveen>
 
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[FONT=q_serif]
The Adavaitist goes beyond the Form and the Formless to the very Transcendent who exceeds Time, Space and all possible conceptualizations of the Divine, and yet who is immanent in all that exists.


But a narrow cult follower, who does not understand Hinduism needs to be schooled in the diversity of Hinduism.
Some cult follower may not know about Adi Shankara:
[/FONT]
Adi Shankara was an early 8th century Indian philosopher and theologian who consolidated the doctrine of Advaita Vedanta.

He is credited with unifying and establishing the main currents of thought in Hinduism.His works in Sanskrit discuss the unity of the ātman and Nirguna Brahman "brahman without attributes".


Sangomji explained this in this post:
https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=20495&p=269887#post269887
 
There is famous Hindi Bhajan:


Tere Poojan Ko


Tere Poojan Ko Bhagwan Bana Mann Mandir Alishaan
Tere Poojan Ko Bhagwan Bana Mann Mandir Alishaan

Kisne Jaani Teri Maya Kisne Bhed Tihaara Paya
Kisne Jaani Teri Maya Kisne Bhed Tihaara Paya

Rishi Muni Haare Kar Kar Dhyan Bana Mann Mandir Alishaan

Tere Poojan Ko

Tere Poojan Ko Bhagwan Bana Mann Mandir Alishaan
Tere Poojan Ko Bhagwan Bana Mann Mandir Alishaan

Kisne Dekhi Teri Surat Kaun Banave Teri Murat
Kisne Dekhi Teri Surat Kaun Banave Teri Murat

Tu Hai Nirakaar Bhagwan Bana Mann Mandir Alishaan.


But then again there is no guarantee that everybody can understand Hindi.
 
If we have to make an idol then pray to it..why dont I just pray to the hands that made the idol?

So Biswaji..should I pray to the clay idol or to the hands that made it?

God made hands and then hands made God.

Renukaji, this circular logic is quite confusing to most ordinary people. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Break the cycle, please.
 
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My son made a clay idol of Ganesha and then performed Ganesh Puja. From the above confusing discussions regarding sculptor's workshop and what not, it is unclear when the idol became God and when it ceased to be divine.

It is better to keep an expansive mind. Only then Hinduism makes sense.

BTW, other religions have issues too. Facing Mecca during praying, savior's flesh and blood during communion etc.

Purely from a Hindu religious perspective, a vigraha becomes God when prANa prathisTAnam is done and it ceases to be a divinity when nitya pUjA is discontinued.

In respect of temporary festivities like Ganesha chathurthi, navarAtri etc. the divinity (invoked in the vigraham) is brought to close by performing punaH pUja on the day of immersion etc. and by sending the divinity back to nature by doing udvAsanam (sending back the honoured guest in dignity). Though many people may not realize, divinity is installed in a temporary body like vigraham etc. is only for the purpose of doing "vratam". We (Hindus) have over time forgotten the concept of vratam and have been stuck to mere idolatory.
 
Well said. You should probably translate just this one sentence.


Who has seen your features, who makes your statue?


In a place near Kolcutta called Kumartuli, they make Durga moorti, Most of the artists are Muslim.

Similarly, in Rajasthan, we ordered a Statue for our Temple. The artist was Muslim.
God is not imprisoned in the Temples, Idols and moorties are kept in the temple for devotees.
So If a moorti, or Idol is relocated that is permitted (and accepted).
 
Amarnath Temple

amarnath-temple.jpg



One of the most sacrosanct places in India as considered by the followers of Hindu religion, Amarnath temple is dedicated to worshipping Lord Shiva. It is located in the state of Jammu and Kashmir at a height of about 12,760 feet.

Devotees visit the Amarnath cave every year for getting a pious glimpse of Lingam of Lord Shiva which is believed to be formed naturally from ice. The temple is only accessible for a short duration during the year in the month of July to August, when the ice Lingam is formed.

The scene during the time is absolutely unbelievable and that makes people to believe in the sanctity of the place. From the top of the cave, water slowly trickles down which freezes to form ice, which after forming a solid base starts taking the shape of Shiva lingam and it acquires the complete shape on Purnima.



No prana pratishta needed.



Similarly, we worship River Ganga as Goddess.
 
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