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Determinism Vs Randomness

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gopal_gg

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Respected Fellow Members,

I seek your views on Determinism Vs Randomness.

Personally, I think everything in this universe is determined, i.e. there is a purpose to everything. Every incident in your life is predetermined and has a purpose to it which you will know at the appropriate time. I have felt this all through my life.

I recall a film of Nicolas Cage, titled "Knowing". I happen to see this film long back but still remember the introduction. How mother earth is placed at an exact distance from the Sun to ensure that life sustains in this planet - not near, not far!

It will be interesting if members share their life experiences favouring and opposing the views.

I am in favour of determinism.

View are welcome.

Regards

Gopal
 
Dear Sir,

You have started a nice topic. Thanks. :)

I strongly believe in 'avanindri OraNuvum asaiyAdhu!'. Each and every event in our lives has a purpose and determined by God.

My dad said the most exciting experience that happened in his life. He came first in school finals and those days Maths was sought

after by all brilliant students. He was escorted by his father to get a seat for B.A. maths. (Many years later it became B.Sc maths!)

On the way, they met a friend, who knew palmistry! On seeing my dad's palm, he said that dad was destined only to be a doctor.

This happened in Burma (Rangoon), where my grandfather was working in accounts dept. So, dad studied in the medical college,

received the gold medal, joined as an army doctor, left Burma (soon after his wedding), worked for a few years in several places in

India and finally settled in a village in Coimbatore district. He was considered next to God in our village. Even now, people fondly

remember his 40 years of noble service. :thumb:
 
gopal_gg said:
Respected Fellow Members,

I seek your views on Determinism Vs Randomness.

Personally, I think everything in this universe is determined, i.e. there is a purpose to everything. Every incident in your life is predetermined and has a purpose to it which you will know at the appropriate time. I have felt this all through my life.

I recall a film of Nicolas Cage, titled "Knowing". I happen to see this film long back but still remember the introduction. How mother earth is placed at an exact distance from the Sun to ensure that life sustains in this planet - not near, not far!

It will be interesting if members share their life experiences favouring and opposing the views.

I am in favour of determinism.

View are welcome.

Regards

Gopal
Click to expand...


Dear Sir,

Its quite hard to feel everything is pre determined cos that would translate to accept crime,murder,corruption,extra marital affairs,pre marital affairs too as pre determined.

The next question is what determines everything?

Surely cause and effect.

We have to start from Day Zero of existence when everyone was a clean slate..surely Free Will determined our Karma..so we started off as Free Will..only then the actions caused by Free Will became the Predetermined actions for our next birth.

So how are we to know?

On a personal note sometime back I had got into a lift(elevator) ..I was alone..then the lift door reopened and another person stepped in and rest is history..that person now has become a very good friend to me.

Was that determined or randomness?

If that person had come a second later..the person would have never met me.

Its hard to say for sure..could be random for all I know but that person did say that the friendship does not feel new..it feels as if the person already "knows" me from before...a Deja Vu.

Again..hard to say.
 
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My view is that we will never know if events are deterministic or random. We might experience shades of both in our lives, but there are far too many known variables, and the unknown, for our minds to grasp the reality.

one example in favour of determinism is "nadi josiyam". By a series of permutations (or combinations), some startling details are revealed. I am not talking about prediction but about facts that already exist (unknown to the person who is reading the nadi). Like the names of the people in the family, siblings etc. I have experienced this myself and the guy telling this was a total stranger !
 
There is something fatalistic about believing in determinism.

Every thing happens I believe because of some cause and one can identify the cause for remedial measures.

More often than not ,the person who acts facing issues head on succeeds.

Every problem has an optimal remedy if not the best remedy.

I believe everyone is talented and able in some way or other.

Casually doing good by actions unilaterally without judging the motive of another human being and taking him at face value and trusting gives best returns in long run

Random approaches to living works if there are multiple options if not infinite. Then on intuition or laws of probability one can assess the chances and take a calculated

shots. I have played for financial returns on risky ventures and got benefitted. But I also quickly respond to reduce losses on mistakes .I have done well touch wood.
 
The subject of time. From a quantum mechanical perspective, time itself is, relatively speaking, superficial. Modern physics tell us that on the deepest levels of existence, time does, in fact, not exist. There is no sequence of events. There is only simultaneity of all that is. Simultaneity is like a deck of cards spread out over the face of the illusion of time. Time is an expression of that which lies beyond the grasp of time. It is essential to understand that from this deepest perspective, the question of free will versus predetermination ceases to exist. They become one and the same thing. In other words, if ultimately there is no time, then there is no sequentiality. There is, then, no difference between free will and predetermination. The reason we have found the question of free will versus predetermination unfathomable is simply because we have attempted to fathom a quantum mechanical question from a non-quantum mechanical perspective.

Practically speaking, what does all of this mean? How does it affect our everyday life and the “real” world in which we live? Most of what happens is, in fact, predetermined. In other words, most of our thoughts, feelings, and reactions are conditioned, or in other words, programmed. However, it’s reasonable to believe that every individual has at least some degree of free will. In other words, to some degree their consciousness functions from the quantum mechanical level of their mind. It is interesting to note that many modern physicists believe that the underlying basis of all existence is, in fact, consciousness itself. It is the level where the non-predetermined mechanic of Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle is lively. The degree to which you are able to function from that level is the degree to which you are truly free. And that is not an attitude or philosophy but is a physiological state that can potentially be cultivated.Some philosophers refer to this as a state of oneness with God. They argue that at this level, your individual will and God’s will become one. You become infinitely free.

http://www.rationalspirituality.org/michael-mamas-wisdom/articles/free-will-vs-predetermination/

[video=youtube_share;PxTUkxgS3-0]https://youtu.be/PxTUkxgS3-0?list=PLcf0vCbFB82EnDk4U4tYgVEC635ioGjw4[/video]
 
When you two respond, we know the thread gets a five star rating.

The starter of the thread gets preferential treatment.

Some of us behave like the canine in hutch ad.

We follow without reservation.lol
 
prasad1 said:
The subject of time. From a quantum mechanical perspective, time itself is, relatively speaking, superficial. Modern physics tell us that on the deepest levels of existence, time does, in fact, not exist. There is no sequence of events. There is only simultaneity of all that is. Simultaneity is like a deck of cards spread out over the face of the illusion of time. Time is an expression of that which lies beyond the grasp of time. It is essential to understand that from this deepest perspective, the question of free will versus predetermination ceases to exist. They become one and the same thing. In other words, if ultimately there is no time, then there is no sequentiality. There is, then, no difference between free will and predetermination. The reason we have found the question of free will versus predetermination unfathomable is simply because we have attempted to fathom a quantum mechanical question from a non-quantum mechanical perspective.

Practically speaking, what does all of this mean? How does it affect our everyday life and the “real” world in which we live? Most of what happens is, in fact, predetermined. In other words, most of our thoughts, feelings, and reactions are conditioned, or in other words, programmed. However, it’s reasonable to believe that every individual has at least some degree of free will. In other words, to some degree their consciousness functions from the quantum mechanical level of their mind. It is interesting to note that many modern physicists believe that the underlying basis of all existence is, in fact, consciousness itself. It is the level where the non-predetermined mechanic of Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle is lively. The degree to which you are able to function from that level is the degree to which you are truly free. And that is not an attitude or philosophy but is a physiological state that can potentially be cultivated.Some philosophers refer to this as a state of oneness with God. They argue that at this level, your individual will and God’s will become one. You become infinitely free.

http://www.rationalspirituality.org/michael-mamas-wisdom/articles/free-will-vs-predetermination/

[video=youtube_share;PxTUkxgS3-0]https://youtu.be/PxTUkxgS3-0?list=PLcf0vCbFB82EnDk4U4tYgVEC635ioGjw4[/video]
Click to expand...

Prasad ji -

Excellent post (though there are some statements that lack precision and accuracy in the references). Thumbs UP :)

Relative time is an experience and absolute time does not exist.

There is another specific post (in the Philosophy section ) which may be relevant in this context
https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showth...582#post312582


More recently in the technology section there is another reference

https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=35589
 
My mother use to explain the Karma theory and free will with an example.
Her idea was that Karma is like the long rope tied around a cow. The cow can not break free of the Karma but has ample room to roam within that radius of rope.
So there is predetermined and free will at the same time.
 
Dear Sir,

The belief that "everything is predetermined" and "everything has a purpose" comes after many experiences that one face in life. I have come across many, few of which I can share that happened in life.

I was a very good student during my schooling. Somehow I could not opt for engineering (though I wanted to pursue IIT). During my 2nd year in college, my mother was bed ridden and I had to take care of her. Same time there were many issues that we as a family faced. It was a taxing time for us financially, physically, mentally and morally. More than a year we had the toughest time in our life. My mother passed away peacefully. I was blessed to serve her while she was bed ridden. Had I opted for engineering, I am sure that due to difficulties I could not have done well or would have to leave in between. Also I could not have served my mother as I might had to stay away. But my passion to pursue engineering still remains. I still feel that the reason I did not opt for engineering was to serve my mother.

I had known my wife ever since her childhood as she was one of the sisters of my close friend. I had always maintained that gentle distance with her while we grew. While she was employed, for some reason I had to counsel her on some issue which her parents thought I could do. This made her to believe that I will be her best life partner. Ultimately after few years we got married. I had never thought I would ever marry her although I had known her for over 20 years. It still puzzles us. She keeps saying you cannot run away from me!

I was a shipping professional for 15 years. For some reason, I was asked to look after a renewable energy power plant which was sick as I had handled stressed assets in the past. A forced decision was made to move me to that Company. It was emotionally a tough decision to quit a field in which I have over 15 year experience and my related professional qualification. But management prevailed over me. By the grace of God, we were able to turn around the Company and I went on to become an important member of the trade association bringing me lot of respect in the industry which was alien to me.

As I see, every turn of events which you face in life has a purpose to it which you realize in hindsight.

All the events that I have faced in life favours determinism.
 
Incompatibilists believe that if everything that happens is caused by prior events then nobody is ever free. Choices, after all, are events—they happen. So, if everything that happens is caused by prior events, this includes all of our choices. And it’s just a short step from here to the idea that if determinism is true, then nobody really makes any choices at all. We’re nothing but marionettes whose strings are pulled by the inexorable forces of nature.

It’s worthwhile to consider why anyone would hold this view. A common pattern of reasoning goes like this. Choosers—that is, real choosers--are responsible for their own decisions. Their decisions are, so to speak, entirely up to them. But if determinism is true, then all of our decisions are just links in a chain of causes and effects for which we are not responsible and over which we have no control.

At this point, the argument bifurcates. Some folks (called 'hard determinists') accept that determinism is true and conclude from this that freedom is at best an illusion. Others, called libertarians, insist that determinism is false and that we are able to make radically free choices that are not fixed by prior causes.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/philosophy-dispatches/201209/are-your-choices-predetermined
 
We have free will in our choices, but full freedom of action comes with full freedom of consciousness in enlightenment. The more we are limited in awareness, the more our actions are conditioned by the past. But if we have freed our mind from identification with our actions and the objects of perception, then we are able to modify the effect of past actions on our present situation that would have otherwise been determined.

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/predetermined_events
 
Respected Members,

There were views ranging from 'Quantum Mechanics' to 'Cause and Effect', 'Free Will' to 'Choices'. By the way I like Quantum Mechanics!

I do not deny any of the above views.

We always have choices and we make decision with Free Will. In life we own our decisions.

Personally, I always believed and had acted on one principle in life, i.e. you take decisions based on facts known at that point in time and for the circumstances then existing. It may be right or wrong, over time you see the result.

But you get a weird feeling when you are able to correlate events which look connected to each other now but which looked random when they were attended to then. That's when you feel, is there an element of determinism that plays which is the background for the present thread.

What I am trying to say is, 'you own decisions and face the effects of those causes', but over time, you feel what looked random are connected events.
 
gopal_gg said:
Respected Members,

There were views ranging from 'Quantum Mechanics' to 'Cause and Effect', 'Free Will' to 'Choices'. By the way I like Quantum Mechanics!

I do not deny any of the above views.

We always have choices and we make decision with Free Will. In life we own our decisions.

Personally, I always believed and had acted on one principle in life, i.e. you take decisions based on facts known at that point in time and for the circumstances then existing. It may be right or wrong, over time you see the result.

But you get a weird feeling when you are able to correlate events which look connected to each other now but which looked random when they were attended to then. That's when you feel, is there an element of determinism that plays which is the background for the present thread.

What I am trying to say is, 'you own decisions and face the effects of those causes', but over time, you feel what looked random are connected events.
Click to expand...

Human mind is extraordinary - it makes the connections when it may or may not exist. A movie you see is a collection of still frames and yet mind makes up the missing pieces and provides the experience of a continuous motion.

Therefore one can never prove with our intellect what is deterministic and what is random. We will 'produce' the result with our intellect and our imagination what we somehow believe in the first place.

All this does not matter if one's vision for this human birth is clear.
 
We can always connect the dots looking backwards. Since it is our thoughts that connects the dots, we can connect the dots looking backwards in multiple ways. That does not show proof or lack of proof of randomness.

For one earth that evolved at the exact distance from Sun, there could have been millions of rocks that did not make it to our way. In millions of galaxies around the universe, so many stars and planets exist and they keep getting destroyed and created. These do no show proof or lack of proof of randomness.

Randomness is lack of a pattern, lack of a predictability in events. It is about future prediction ability and not reasoning about past.

There is a fair amount of determinism in the Universe.

Rta (order) is a hall-mark of the Universe. Rta (order) is the predictability of events. From the way quarks manifest in dirac-fermi fields to them building up the nucleus, formation of atoms, elements, compounds, galaxies, stars, planets and life, there is an order in the Universe in which one builds up over another. This order is evolution. Today science can predict the future course of Sun, earth and even Universe to certain set of possibilities with various degrees of certainty. We know earth is going to die, sun is going to die and possibly the Universe as we know will also be extinct. Hence there is a Rta in the Universe.

Dharma (fixed laws of Universe) operates in the Universe. Everything in the Universe from spacetime to matter particles to macro-objects obeys these fixed laws of Universe.

Rta and Dharma brings in fair amount of determinism in the Universe.

So what is the randomness, lack of predictability, that you are concerned about..?

I surmise it is about predicting 'you', 'your life', 'your relationships', 'your wealth' 'your health' etc..

The Universe is a Yajna, an evolutionary sacrifice, in which one builds over another. As more complex beings form, more and more complex laws operate them, as several laws that operate each of these components intermingle and criss-cross each other.

Previously the intelligence of computing devices were at the CPU only. Then peripherals became intelligent. Now everything is going to be intelligent. In future your home's walls, doors will have intelligence. Even your lungs, liver and kidneys may have extra intelligence given by humans.

As intelligence builds up, it becomes more complex to decipher them and understand them. A clock can be repaired even now. But when a LCD TV (that does not have much intelligence) does not work, a technician will change the motherboard. Another one will change the chips in the motherboard. It is tough for them to find what is not working as it has a lot more complex laws operating them. It is time-consuming and hence not economical.

Our life is much more complex. We are all inter-related socially and even physically. Our life is not guided by our thoughts or our internal properties alone. Our life is influenced by myriad of laws of universe, laws of the world and so many things. Hence it is much more complex to understand and predict.

When we lack predictability, because it is too complex for us to understand, probably we fall on 'randomness'.

This is not deny randomness in nature in several aspects. Quantum and consciousness domains are talked about as examples for randomness.

In Quantum domain, what we see as randomness is in the 'manifestation'. it is the nature of that world. That randomness builds the 'rta' or order of this Universe. It does not lead to chaos. The macro-world that builds out of quantum world, obeys the dharma. As a result, there is determinism in the macro-world. In consciousness domain too, our thoughts are random, yet we build and evolve on them.

-TBT
 
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