Ritual - is it a science or superstition

I just read an interesting article in the following website

Indian Temples and Iconography

It seems sound, water, fragrance, stone/metal, fire, natural extracts like oil or ghee have significant effect and creates an unknown energy which is significant.

The article contains equations and also catalyst. Those who are familiar with Mathematics and Chemistry can understand better.

Please read it and then we will have further discussion.

All the best

Alas Iam very poor in mathematics...:frusty:

Shri RVji,
Thank you very much for introducing me to the website" Indian temples and Iconography". I read the article and it is very interesting. One has to ponder over the issues mentioned in the article to understand the meaning of ritual. Venkat

Thanks Venkatji. Amazing, though I am not good in understanding the technical aspects. But I am not surprised reading this. Once people were questioning the wisdom of performing "abhishekams" on idols when thousand could be fed using the milk, ghee etc. I remember reading a study conducted by a foreign institution on the efficacy of abhishekam. Using specific instruments they could identify a positive energy field being generated when a abhishekam is performed. Even without the aid of science, I think we experience goosebumps when a abhishekam, arathi is performed.

Read this amazing article relating Agnihotra and the principles of Combustion Science by this scientist Harish Chandra. He did his B.Tech from IIT and a Ph.D in Combustion Science from Princeton.

Vedic Combustion Science

Mantras properly pronounced and used with the traditional method result in audio waves whch affevt persons.For most good and for the few bad.But nowadays there is no proper pronunciation and there is no effect of the Mantras.It has become symbolic
I have been told by Sivachariars that the compound used during Kumbashikhams to the main deities have above normal adhesive power

I have been told by Sivachariars that the compound used during Kumbashikhams to the main deities have above normal adhesive power

The compound used for installing deities is something unique. Dharmapuram Aadhinam near Mayiladurai use to supply the compound. I have personally procured the compound from them.

Before applying, the compound is put in `ural' உரல் and bombarded with `ulakkai' உலக்கை for several hours by just adding butter before applied to the foot of the deity and platform. For one mandalam (45 days or so) only oil is applied in the joints so that it becomes very strong and the idol doesn't come out for years.

My father use to send the compound to Kerala temples regularly procuring from Dharmapuram Adheenam

All the best

anandb said:

Thanks Venkatji. Amazing, though I am not good in understanding the technical aspects. But I am not surprised reading this. Once people were questioning the wisdom of performing "abhishekams" on idols when thousand could be fed using the milk, ghee etc. I remember reading a study conducted by a foreign institution on the efficacy of abhishekam. Using specific instruments they could identify a positive energy field being generated when a abhishekam is performed. Even without the aid of science, I think we experience goosebumps when a abhishekam, arathi is performed.

Read this amazing article relating Agnihotra and the principles of Combustion Science by this scientist Harish Chandra. He did his B.Tech from IIT and a Ph.D in Combustion Science from Princeton.

Vedic Combustion Science

Click to expand...

Thanks anandb ji for useful link.

During Bhopal gas leak tragedy, a family performed agnihotra and saved itself. Some news items are still available in the following link

Agnihotra homam saved a family from Bhopal Gas Tragedy : guruvayur appan blogs on sulekha, Health blogs, guruvayur appan blog from india

The above incident was reported in all the newspapers at that time and was a big news.

All the best

Sir,
The idols are simply superb. The equations are down to earth. Even I first frighten on seeing them and scrapped previously like that. But, am sure its in a layman level to understand. Thanks for provoking us in new ways...

Usually it is called as, "Marundu". It will be in red colour finally. The power of the deity will be in water (Kumba) and the actual idol will be kept alone (Balalayam). The power in the kumbha will be transferred to stone idol via a dharbha rope and then the water will also be poured over it. The "marundhu" which has an above absorbing capability make the stone idol to receive the power from the water. It also provide external power to the idol to rest in the peeta. This is what I know. I think Ramani sir will clarify more regarding this...

Pranams

The Indian temple and iconography has the following link also which is very good

Picasa Web Albums - Kavitha Kalyan - Indian Temple...

All the best

For something to be science, the knowledge presented must have been accumulated through controlled observations that can be objectively measured and replicated. Many religious people, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc., are often obsessed with claiming scientific authenticity to their beliefs, customs, and rituals. In this respect, religions that one might derisively call “primitive” care little for scientific respectability.

R.Venkataramani said:

I have been told by Sivachariars that the compound used during Kumbashikhams to the main deities have above normal adhesive power

The compound used for installing deities is something unique. Dharmapuram Aadhinam near Mayiladurai use to supply the compound. I have personally procured the compound from them.

Before applying, the compound is put in `ural' உரல் and bombarded with `ulakkai' உலக்கை for several hours by just adding butter before applied to the foot of the deity and platform. For one mandalam (45 days or so) only oil is applied in the joints so that it becomes very strong and the idol doesn't come out for years.

My father use to send the compound to Kerala temples regularly procuring from Dharmapuram Adheenam

All the best

Click to expand...

hi Rv sir,
It is called ASTABHANDAN in sanskrit...so it icalled astabandana
kumbabhishekam...in red colour paste with butter....it helps
grip of deisty very well ...in 48 days mandalabhishekam period...
its curing time....more harder than concrete...its mixture eight
type of items...

regards
tbs

tbs said:

hi Rv sir,
It is called ASTABHANDAN in sanskrit...so it icalled astabandana
kumbabhishekam...in red colour paste with butter....it helps
grip of deisty very well ...in 48 days mandalabhishekam period...
its curing time....more harder than concrete...its mixture eight
type of items...

regards
tbs

Click to expand...

is there a tenali raman story associated with ashtabandana?

i am familiar with the thilagaadmahidabandhana. however ashtabandana sounds vaguely familiar ...

The name of the (non-existent) scholarly work referred to by Tenali Raama is 'Tilakashta Mahisha Bhandanam" meaning 'ellu chediyum, erumai kattum kayirum'.

pannvalan said:

the name of the (non-existent) scholarly work referred to by tenali raama is 'tilakashta mahisha bhandanam" meaning 'ellu chediyum, erumai kattum kayirum'.

Click to expand...

ஷமிக்கணம் இப்போ மனசலாயி

As an individual, I do not show much interest in rituals. For, many of them are just preparatory steps for the next. And, many of them are meaningless too. Our misfortune lies in our limitations to distinguish between the genuine and inane rituals. This limitation of ours is exploited by others to their advantage.

But, I understand and trust some of the rituals have scientific background and verifiable effects. They can be performed at any place, subject to carrying out some changes in the variables. For instance, one of my friends' father wanted to perform a homam while he was at USA. But, it turned out to be ineffective and he was very disappointed at the outcome.

Another interesting point is, he performed similar homams while he was in Japan and they all went off very well to his utmost satisfaction.

From this, what I infer is, the result of the same ritual varies depending on the kartha,
place (latitude and longitude), nature and quantity of the things/ingredients used, time (the time of the clock as well as duration), shradda (involvement/dedication) and finally, on whose behalf or with whose financial assistance the ritual is performed.

Some persons say even the quality (character) and thinking of the persons who witness the event affects its outcome.

I invite further discussions on this subject.

As you rightly said, Mr. Pann, rituals do prepare you for the next step in one's ascent towards spirituality. As per our scriptures, the easier way to attain god in kaliyuga is through "namasankirtanam" but from personal experience this does not come easily to everyone. My personal experience is rituals give a kind of discipline to the mind. It is like an athlete training himself hard to acquire the physical and mental toughness to finally be on the podium. But as you rightly said, just like the amount of involvement in training determines the difference between a winner and loser the involvement in a ritual is important in determining the benefits one gets from it.

Unfortunately, we Hindus fare so poorly in the involvement factor that if we don't get the benefit we tend to blame the ritual itself. akin to blaming the head for getting a headache. As an example, let us take a pooja or a homam which is conducted. You have the persons performing it, the priest who conducts it and the attendees. You can bet that most of the time, all these people are distracted during the performance. The performer is distracted by the guests or the children trying to sit on his lap, the priest is interrupted by mobile calls and the audience are happily chatting with each other. It is utter din. Where is the atmosphere, serenity or the vibes?

Discipline is something we need to learn from Muslims and Christians. I am not a great admirer of these religions but I can appreciate goodness where it is. If you observe a mass in the Church or the millions of Muslims circling the Kaaba one can observe a great deal of discipline. Compare this to the frequent stampedes that happen in temples resulting in loss of life. Discipline is something that we greatly need when performing a ritual. So before we blame the ritual, let us see if there is total involvement from the performer, priest and the attendees.

The other requirement I feel is the performer should sincerely believe in the ritual or the pooja being performed. No point to go through the motions just to satisfy one's parents or you feel guilty of not performing it. Our religion does not pass strictures for not complying so if there is no faith better not to do it.

Your thoughts on the factors which affect the results of the ritual is interesting. I think there could be lot of truth in it. May be that is why it is suggested that chanting god's name is a easier path to attain in this yuga.

Here is an interesting article on choosing a tennis ball- Whether ritual or superstition

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/07/sports/tennis/07tennis.html

All the best

Solemn duty

Greetings to all!

Scientists over thousands of years have meticulously observed nature and developed a modicum of understanding of the world around us. This scientific understanding has provided immense benefits to all of us, viz. longer, healthier, and relatively better quality lives. Therefore, science has earned a great deal of respect from everyone.

Those who wish to elevate the respect for religious rituals by connecting them to science, must also do so in the old fashioned way, namely, by demonstrating the beneficial effects that are claimed. Just asserting them is akin to “shop-lifting” scientific respectability.

If sound waves produced by the proper chanting of mathras provide some unspecified benefit, then specify what those benefits are, and then establish the link between the cause and effect through experimentation. Then you have every right to assert the benefit; otherwise it is just snake oil. Same with homas, agnihothras, abhishekam, etc.

If Vedic rituals provide tangible benefits, then it is the solemn duty of those who posses this knowledge to prove it to the satisfaction of skeptics, the same way scientists prove their theories and hypotheses. Some examples of benefits humanity has enjoyed through science include antibiotics, internal combustion engines, cell phones, computers, internet, etc. These scientists had to first overcome skeptical fellow scientists. They took the time and effort to convince the skeptics. Their efforts resulted in enormous benefits for the public and we respect them.

Similarly, is it not the duty of the Vedic scholars, who posses this immense knowledge of religious rituals, to demonstrate the cause and effect between their rituals and stated benefits, to skeptical fellow scientists, so that the masses can get to enjoy these benefits? Is this not their solemn duty towards humanity?

The religious Matams have access to enormous wealth. They can easily fund these experiments, at least in small scale. Once promising results are established in small scale experiments, funding will pour in from various entrepreneurs who are ever eager to make a buck.

If benefits are not guaranteed due to too many uncontrollable variables, then what we have are just empty rituals that provide results no better than a placebo would. In such a case, it is better to stick with promises of benefits to come after one is dead and gone.

Cheers!

Dear Professor,

I agree with the contents of your post, by and large. But, I observe the following limitations exist in demonstrating the effects of any Hindu ritual.

1. Inhibitions in everyone to question the purpose and demanding the proof of
the much advocated end-result or effect.

2. Inability of the performers and organisers to explain properly the procedure in
scientific language and also, the variables- both controllable and non-controllable-
involved, multiple possibilities, different variants of the same ritual as obtaining in
different regions of the country, to the satisfaction of the scientific community
and the sceptics.

3. Certain things require no demonstration. Proof of pudding is in eating. Results
at individual level and the social level stand as a valid testimony. But, there is
no barometer available to measure them accurately.

4. Certain rituals, as long as they are non-superstitious, not harmful and do not
result in wastage of precious resources, can be accepted by the persons
concerned, if they are willing to perform them or get them performed, without
any compulsion from any quarters.

5. Ultimately, faith always prevails over proof as has been discussed at length
in many threads already.

However, as far as I am concerned, the Hindus shall not hesitate to submit many of the rituals for scientific scrutiny and regardless of the outcome, they are free to continue to do, what they have been doing all these years.

The religious Matams have access to enormous wealth. They can easily fund these experiments, at least in small scale. Once promising results are established in small scale experiments, funding will pour in from various entrepreneurs who are ever eager to make a buck.

If benefits are not guaranteed due to too many uncontrollable variables, then what we have are just empty rituals that provide results no better than a placebo would. In such a case, it is better to stick with promises of benefits to come after one is dead and gone.

The mutts should encourage research in specific areas involving not only rituals but also music. Both Sringeri and Kanchi mutt have got their own universities.

Let them encourage research with specific raagas and publish reports whether blood pressure is coming down, heart beat is getting normalised etc.

Similarly during Bhopal gas leak tragedy, it was reported that two families within one KM radius managed to escape through Agnihotra. Why don't they repeat the same in controlled laboratory conditions with eminent scholars and publish reports. Let them do research on specific mantras for specific ailments, observe it in laboratory and publish reports.

Once they start publishing, research institutions all over the world will join for further research and there won't be any problem for funding also.

Once globally accepted, it will shut the mouth of rationalists also. Those who follow the faith also will do it more sincerely.

All the best

Thathasthu! Omen! Appadiye aguga!

pannvalan said:

I agree with the contents of your post, by and large. But, I observe the following limitations exist in demonstrating the effects of any Hindu ritual.

[..]

However, as far as I am concerned, the Hindus shall not hesitate to submit many of the rituals for scientific scrutiny and regardless of the outcome, they are free to continue to do, what they have been doing all these years.

Click to expand...

If as you say there are many uncontrollable variables then what we have is just faith that these things have some significant beneficial effects, not science. I was only addressing the "science" part, not the faith part. I am not questioning the right of people to have faith in anything, but they have no right to call it science unless it is proved to the satisfaction of fellow scientists.

R.Venkataramani said:

Once globally accepted, it will shut the mouth of rationalists also. Those who follow the faith also will do it more sincerely.

Click to expand...

I also second this, but until this is done people of faith should refrain from using the word "science" when talking about religious rituals.

Cheers!

I understand most of us are confusing rationale or reasonable purpose behind every ritual as its scientific basis. This must have been the genesis of all the discussions herein.

I never said the majority of variables are uncontrollable. At the same time, we have not devised a suitable barometer as yet to measure the performance of all the variables with required accuracy and reliability. In other words, we have to devise suitable system and methodology to -

(a) identify the variables and their degree of influence on the outcome
(b) keep the factors that are constant
(c) retain or keep aside those factors which are neutral (that have no effect)
(d) segregate the variables into controllable and uncontrollable
(e) remove those factors which are considered as a hindrance to the anticipated
result (if that is possible).

Though it looks so simple, it requires a brainstorming session before any analysis is
contemplated. A team of religious, spiritual, physics, chemistry, geological, bio-chemistry, environmental science, particle physics and other professionals are to be consulted or taken into the overseeing and implementing team. It doesn't mean
all these professionals are required for each and every experiment - small or big.

I wish to reiterate, as a person, my mind doesn't set in all these rituals and I involve myself only in a very few, be an onlooker for some and keep away from the rest.

Hope I have made my position clear.

Though it looks so simple, it requires a brainstorming session before any analysis is
contemplated. A team of religious, spiritual, physics, chemistry, geological, bio-chemistry, environmental science, particle physics and other professionals are to be consulted or taken into the overseeing and implementing team. It doesn't mean
all these professionals are required for each and every experiment - small or big.

Let experts from various fields do brainstorming sessions and come out to conclusions. It is the job of the research scholars.

But it has to be validated in laboratory conditions. Unless it is done, it is difficult to prove to the world that it is a `science' as claimed by some people. If it is a science, it can be repeated any number of times.

All the best

While it would be worthwhile to invest in yourself and find " From Within " what miracles Faith has done in your lives , it would account for a loss of time to experiment and justify the truth behind what has been prescribed in the books !
The books are not primitive , but they are valuable assets for time immemorial , one just has to take a deep dive into it , have a dedicated quest into deciphering the unknown.
Why do i need to re-invent the things already invented ! I don't have any doubts in my mind about the usage of things i have with me like the mobile phones , the lcd tv, the medicines that is prevailing - i never even get to know , to what degree of side effects these present day necessities will bring about ! Not that i cannot , it is just pure faith , Faith in the modern day scientists , faith in the doctors and similarly ....
Why don't I have a little faith on what has been passed on from generations to me ??
Instead why don't i try practising these rituals with true faith with the support of the required resource and learn from experience ! Alright just for discussion sake , if 10 scientist turn out to prove that certain mantras have a positive effect on the human being and can as a net effect provide him a relaxation or develop inculcate his positive thoughts , i do not need to go so far , if I have Faith in the words and letters of my religious texts , I am already " Relaxed " and can deliver to the best of my efforts ! Why take pains for small gains ????