Post ICM Social Status and Position

Hello All,
We have analyzed the ICM and IRM in depth. I am just trying to know where our community stands in terms of accepting these families and more importantly kids from these families. It is one thing to be accepted by the family (who have no choice but to accept) but it is a different ballgame all together to get same status and measuring yardstick as TB couple in general society. Upanayanam and Kalyanam are probably the most important functions in anyone's life so if the kid is born out of ICM or IRM, how are they handling this?
I have observed that many ICMs go sour after sometime due to some level of identity crisis the case of becoming a "cat on the wall" case with the TB person not buying completely into the NB customs or the NB person not able to meet the basic req of TB customs.

theseventhhill said:

Hello All,
We have analyzed the ICM and IRM in depth. I am just trying to know where our community stands in terms of accepting these families and more importantly kids from these families. It is one thing to be accepted by the family (who have no choice but to accept) but it is a different ballgame all together to get same status and measuring yardstick as TB couple in general society. Upanayanam and Kalyanam are probably the most important functions in anyone's life so if the kid is born out of ICM or IRM, how are they handling this?
I have observed that many ICMs go sour after sometime due to some level of identity crisis the case of becoming a "cat on the wall" case with the TB person not buying completely into the NB customs or the NB person not able to meet the basic req of TB customs.

Click to expand...

Love is blind; caste and customs are myth. The ICM & IRM couples travel in a parallel plane and they don't bother as what we think.
My friend, a TB .. Bank officer married a Naadaar lady ... a college professor. some 35 years ago.
Their kids ... one doctor and one engineer......... both are married and well settled.

We apprehend a lot of thinks and advocate a lot of things; but only braves love and live successfully.
It all depends how people are settled in life.

I have one relative intercaste marriage -brahmin girl married to a reddier. Their off spring with a foreign degree well placed took four years to get an arranged match-

that too only from reddier community.No brahmin family was prepared to offer a girl to him. He after a bad experience with brahmin community left india for good and

settled in a foreign country swearing never to return.similar was the case with inter religion marriage. They had to leave the country for decent living abroad. India is a

very intolerant country. Now only concession is brahmins overlook sub caste , and opt for any brahmin . But non brahmins is a big no in arranged marriages for

brahmins

Well settled from economic terms these days does not apply to any caste or religion. Whoever is in the right place at right time and works hard or knows the right people will be successful economically.
I am skeptic about the Doctors from TN especially with the skewed reservation policy and the babu-sarkari-college capitation fee nexus.
If we use just economic means to rate marriages then probably any ICM or IRM with the powerful, influential and rich intermediate castes like OBCS, MBCS (nadars, goundar, reddy etc) would win hands down.

What about the cultural aspects? Do these IRM ICM kids get accepted by our TB folks? I have seen in close quarters that ICM couples try very hard to "blend in" but at the end of day TBs seem to have a razor sharp filtration policy. I have seen some ICM kids try to fake it big time by conducting upanayanam for their husband who is not a TB when he was 50 yrs old, and sanskritising their kid's life style to come off as TB enough.
They do not bother what we think is little inaccurate. They do bother ..I have always seen the desperate urge or desire to conduct marriage or upanayanam as close to TB terms as possible. How much ever money is available, except for the poor brihaspathi who supervises these functions, a large % of TB irrespective of education, money, location in India or abroad etc. restrain from accepting ICM IRM TB kid as a TB kid.
One of my friend' son is in the alliance watch. He was a 1984 period ICM kid, father is a Nadar. TB folks do not want to roll the dice and they are rather playing the waiting game. ICM kids are bonding at whatever level with other KCM kids creating a subculture of sorts who are neither here nor there but trying to come up with some hybrid identity for them. TB when convenient and non TB when inconvenient.
India is a intolerant country? I hope you are kidding. Historically tolerance is what made India a dream destination for all Abrahamic faiths form outside as well as the imperial UK, East India co, Portuguese , Jesuits and so on. I would say there is a burning desire to appear as "elitist" in every caste and community. In other communities I have seen even if their caste member is poor, the rich guys seem to bond along and try to help them. TBs, I have seen nothing but sheer apathy and indifference and definitely not intolerance.

yesmohan said:

Love is blind; caste and customs are myth. The ICM & IRM couples travel in a parallel plane and they don't bother as what we think.
My friend, a TB .. Bank officer married a Naadaar lady ... a college professor. some 35 years ago.
Their kids ... one doctor and one engineer......... both are married and well settled.

We apprehend a lot of thinks and advocate a lot of things; but only braves love and live successfully.
It all depends how people are settled in life.

Click to expand...

Castes and customs are myth for those who are in the grip of hormones.

The brahmin married a nadar and became a nadar. His children are nadars. They all live happily just like the brahmins who have married within the commun ity. Leave them alone. Why bother to make them brahmins? What is so great about being a brahmin or for that matter a nadar?

krish44 said:

I have one relative intercaste marriage -brahmin girl married to a reddier. Their off spring with a foreign degree well placed took four years to get an arranged match-

that too only from reddier community.No brahmin family was prepared to offer a girl to him. He after a bad experience with brahmin community left india for good and

settled in a foreign country swearing never to return.similar was the case with inter religion marriage. They had to leave the country for decent living abroad. India is a

very intolerant country. Now only concession is brahmins overlook sub caste , and opt for any brahmin . But non brahmins is a big no in arranged marriages for

brahmins

Click to expand...

Question 1. Why did they look for a match from the brahmin community?

Question 2. Why should the boy consider it a bad experience and swear not to return to India again?

Question 3. Why should the boy think that the country is intolerant? just because he did not get a brahmin girl? Does he think that it is his birth right to get a brahmin girl just because he has a foreign degree and was well poaced? Does the brahmin girl not have a right to decide whom she will marry?

Answers please.

krish44 said:

I have one relative intercaste marriage -brahmin girl married to a reddier. Their off spring with a foreign degree well placed took four years to get an arranged match-

that too only from reddier community.No brahmin family was prepared to offer a girl to him. He after a bad experience with brahmin community left india for good and

settled in a foreign country swearing never to return.similar was the case with inter religion marriage. They had to leave the country for decent living abroad. India is a

very intolerant country. Now only concession is brahmins overlook sub caste , and opt for any brahmin . But non brahmins is a big no in arranged marriages for

brahmins

Click to expand...

From your statement, it seems the couple has no broad minded approach. Why are they expecting a match from B community. Ultimately the alliance was from Reddiar caste, the caste of husband. What is the wrong in it?

MUZHUVATHUM NANAINTHAPIN MUKKADU EDHUKU?

Question 1. Why did they look for a match from the brahmin community?

Question 2. Why should the boy consider it a bad experience and swear not to return to India again?

Question 3. Why should the boy think that the country is intolerant? just because he did not get a brahmin girl? Does he think that it is his birth right to get a brahmin girl just because he has a foreign degree and was well poaced? Does the brahmin girl not have a right to decide whom she will marry?

Answers please.

Very valid points, it is this precise issues I am trying to understand. Generally kids go with the caste and customs of the father but in ICM or IRM marriages, I have seen this logic thrown out of the window. Once my thatha was shocked to attend a Upanayanam for a ICM kid the father openly eats NV on all days and does Brahmopadesam by being a vegetarian for a day. On one end taking advantage of quota and on the other hand brazenly indulging in self-brahminization. It is one thing to be liberal and choose your lifestyle but choosing the environment to match your constraints is hypocritical. People leave B citing casteism, elitism, superstition and so on, why would a reddiar family call India intolerant simply because they could not find an alliance? Finding an alliance is worse than Bhagiratha Praaarthanai these days for everyone and esp in the B community.

Castes and customs are myth for those who are in the grip of hormones
This statement appears fancy but not understandable, you mean DNA? If there is any state in India where caste overrides religion and nationhood, it is TN. Mere glance at the number of parties and news media coverage clearly shows TN is very casteist. Caste is very real and exertion of power and control through caste, money, clout or any other influence is so rampant . Calling caste a myth does not apply in current social and political circumstances.

theseventhhill said:

...........<clipped>.............
Castes and customs are myth for those who are in the grip of hormones
This statement appears fancy but not understandable, you mean DNA? If there is any state in India where caste overrides religion and nationhood, it is TN. Mere glance at the number of parties and news media coverage clearly shows TN is very casteist. Caste is very real and exertion of power and control through caste, money, clout or any other influence is so rampant . Calling caste a myth does not apply in current social and political circumstances.

Click to expand...

That was said in a context. The context was ICM. For an ICM to happen lovvu is considered to be the prime reason. When lovvu is there it is also called blind. When such blind love or passion is ruling it means the hormones have completely taken over. And that is what I meant. Under the tyranny of hormones, the family values, reason, cultural differences, the pain caused to close kins etc., are all jettisoned. It is only just the passion and nothing else. And ways are invented to justify the passion and what it leads to. Like a friend of me said "blood is red so ICM is okay." ( I did not tell him most of the mammals have blood which is red)

Not only Tamilnadu, but caste and closing ranks in its name are every where in India. Lalu openly declares that only a particular caste person can rule his state and he is cheered by the crowd.

The reality is that the middle castes in Tamilnadu are very cunning and deceitful. They had been torturing, exploiting and humiliating the dalits all along as agric ulture labour while saying loudly that varnasrama dharma invented(!) by brahmins is the sole reason for that. Thus their strategy to keep the dalits under their political control and keep the brahmins away from political power has been achieved like magic. They had the resources to put up a facade that hid the upper/lower caste differences between mudaliyars, pillais, naickers thevars etc., on the one hand and the nadar, gounder, vanniyar on the other. It is a phalanx which had the only common goal of keeping the dalits in serfdom perpetually and keeping brahmins in the dog house perpetually so that they can enjoy the power.

With time and education and economic progress things are bound to change. That is when we may see a pillai, a mudaliyar or a naicker toiling in the field belonging to a dalit for daily wages. LOL.

yesmohan said:

Love is blind; caste and customs are myth. The ICM & IRM couples travel in a parallel plane and they don't bother as what we think.
My friend, a TB .. Bank officer married a Naadaar lady ... a college professor. some 35 years ago.
Their kids ... one doctor and one engineer......... both are married and well settled.

We apprehend a lot of thinks and advocate a lot of things; but only braves love and live successfully.
It all depends how people are settled in life.

Click to expand...

What is their status as far as caste is concerned? Since the children have become professionals, there is a possibility that the couple would have moved to BC category.

Having a ICM and again trying to follow Brahmin's customs and trying for a match for the kids in Brahmins..... is all like wanting to eat the cake and have it too.
Couples of ICM lose the caste identity and they could very well look for alliance from similar variety.
A lot of people are living VERY WELL...after breaking the caste barriers.

Vaagmi said:

That was said in a context. The context was ICM. For an ICM to happen lovvu is considered to be the prime reason. When lovvu is there it is also called blind. When such blind love or passion is ruling it means the hormones have completely taken over. And that is what I meant. Under the tyranny of hormones, the family values, reason, cultural differences, the pain caused to close kins etc., are all jettisoned. It is only just the passion and nothing else. And ways are invented to justify the passion and what it leads to. Like a friend of me said "blood is red so ICM is okay." ( I did not tell him most of the mammals have blood which is red)

Not only Tamilnadu, but caste and closing ranks in its name are every where in India. Lalu openly declares that only a particular caste person can rule his state and he is cheered by the crowd.

The reality is that the middle castes in Tamilnadu are very cunning and deceitful. They had been torturing, exploiting and humiliating the dalits all along as agric ulture labour while saying loudly that varnasrama dharma invented(!) by brahmins is the sole reason for that. Thus their strategy to keep the dalits under their political control and keep the brahmins away from political power has been achieved like magic. They had the resources to put up a facade that hid the upper/lower caste differences between mudaliyars, pillais, naickers thevars etc., on the one hand and the nadar, gounder, vanniyar on the other. It is a phalanx which had the only common goal of keeping the dalits in serfdom perpetually and keeping brahmins in the dog house perpetually so that they can enjoy the power.

With time and education and economic progress things are bound to change. That is when we may see a pillai, a mudaliyar or a naicker toiling in the field belonging to a dalit for daily wages. LOL.

Click to expand...

I completely agree with the closing ranks phenomenon and by now even the dalits would have realized that the whole Dk movement was just a power consolidation mechanism for the intermediate caste who wanted to have access to ruling class, labor class as well as keep the intellectual class subservient.

CHANDRU1849 said:

What is their status as far as caste is concerned? Since the children have become professionals, there is a possibility that the couple would have moved to BC category.

Click to expand...

This is what they are doing based on my understanding and feelers which I got for during alliance seeking process for my relative:
1. They opt the BC/OBC route for job and reservation prospects
2. Somehow try to cultivate belief in god, avoid non-veg in important days etc.
3. Seek brahmin alliance citing 3 reasons: a) These days marriages are hard so brahmins should relax rules argument b) now a days even brahmins are drinking, smoking and eating non-veg so caste is not an issue character is c) Since one of our parents is brahmin we want our prospective groom family to have 1 or both parents as a brahmin.

theseventhhill said:

This is what they are doing based on my understanding and feelers which I got for during alliance seeking process for my relative:
1. They opt the BC/OBC route for job and reservation prospects
2. Somehow try to cultivate belief in god, avoid non-veg in important days etc.
3. Seek brahmin alliance citing 3 reasons: a) These days marriages are hard so brahmins should relax rules argument b) now a days even brahmins are drinking, smoking and eating non-veg so caste is not an issue character is c) Since one of our parents is brahmin we want our prospective groom family to have 1 or both parents as a brahmin.

Click to expand...

No 4. Brahmin boys(?) will also accept brides from ICM family on the ground " something is better than nothing".

yesmohan said:

No 4. Brahmin boys(?) will also accept brides from ICM family on the ground " something is better than nothing".

Click to expand...

I do not think so that will happen. At best iyer, iyengar, madhwa or any brahmin denomination will be plan B. Plan C is stay single. Plan d will be ICM or other NB women

Those who get into ICM or IRM should fend for themselves; the society cannot be expected to come to their rescue nor can generalized rules be made. If the children born of ICM marriages are happy with their ICM status and have no complaint against their parents for bringing them into this world as "hybrids", those children should be asked to go out into the wide world and find out some suitable mate for themselves. The tendency of the ICM couple to "establish" their offsprings into one of the two castes is obnoxious.

I think there is no fixed path charted in the case of an icm or irm... The practice of the dominant partner would tend to prevail... If both are dominant, then it could potentially hold a clash or if both are indifferent, it really doesn't matter.

I have observed that there is no dominant partner or trait taking over in terms of customs. It is purely based on economics and elitist needs. Basically NB for employment purposes, B for cultural and social status position. Have cake and eat it. But the ride awakening is that there is absolutely no urge or desperation in B community to put ICM or IRM in pedestal and worship them and give the same fencing as one would give for B family. I have seen really pathetic situations where ICM folks go for Poonool shopping and try very hard to establish their family as a B family. Hybrids should look into other NB communities who are way richer and prosperous compared to B community first. After all Varnaashramadharma and Manu are the basic reason as cited by them for ICM and IRM so I guess they can go even further and uplift Dalits as well. It will be a great initiative for the collective good of society.

The couples of ICM / IRM marriages might have started thinking a few years after their marriage about the future problems

of their own / kids and might be ready to face the situation of their own, as they are the better judges to take a prudent

decision.

"might be ready to face the situation of their own, as they are the better judges to take a prudent

decision."
I think they expect non ICM and non IRM folks to flex and bend around to meet their demands and view points citing current society's emphasis on money, power ,economics, lack of TB-ness, pseudoliberal TB values etc

theseventhhill said:

"might be ready to face the situation of their own, as they are the better judges to take a prudent

decision."
I think they expect non ICM and non IRM folks to flex and bend around to meet their demands and view points citing current society's emphasis on money, power ,economics, lack of TB-ness, pseudoliberal TB values etc

Click to expand...

We could not correctly apprehend what others think.
Even if they "expect " in that line, there is nothing wrong in it; all could have liberty to have any level of expectations.
After all without ambition and expectation nothing could be achieved in life.
But in my opinion once a revolutionary should always remain a revolutionary.
Otherwise. doing every thing in haste while in younger age when cold in blood and green in judgement and repenting leisurely at old age for their kids........ is not the quality of a real revolutionary.
Then their ICMS / IRMS are proved otherwise; ..... is not out of true love but only lust.
Their expectations to become a reality, they might target their own category of TBs with lack of TB-ness, pseudoliberal TB values etc.

yesmohan said:

We could not correctly apprehend what others think.
Even if they "expect " in that line, there is nothing wrong in it; all could have liberty to have any level of expectations.
After all without ambition and expectation nothing could be achieved in life.
But in my opinion once a revolutionary should always remain a revolutionary.
Otherwise. doing every thing in haste while in younger age when cold in blood and green in judgement and repenting leisurely at old age for their kids........ is not the quality of a real revolutionary.
Then their ICMS / IRMS are proved otherwise; ..... is not out of true love but only lust.
Their expectations to become a reality, they might target their own category of TBs with lack of TB-ness, pseudoliberal TB values etc.

Click to expand...

Putting it another way, it is better to allow each go their way. Brahmins are super knowledgeable guys and each one is knowledge personified. There are those who say times are changing and so we must give up our old values and embrace modernity unrestrained. There are those who believe our time tested values should not be given up easily. There are those who are in between these two positions who believe we should change with time only in what is essential. Brahmins being superintelligent and individualistic will not accept the other person's views.

So the following can be a solution:

1. Those who are revolutionary intellectuals can marry outside the community, marry their children too outside the community. They can imbibe these values and pass on these values to their children too. They should tell their children from childhood itself that it is bad to marry within the community. They can even tell the children that it is a sin to marry within the community. ICM is the chosen method by God and IRM is even better. They should banish all those children who fall in love with boys within the community and declare them drohis. They can refuse any share in ancestral properties to such children who marry within the community.

2. The other group can cpontinue with whatever brahmins are doing today. They can marry within the community only. They consider ICM and IRM as blasphemy. They can avoid attending marriages of the first category.

My request will be that these two groups should not come here and waste our time and kilobytes recommending their pet belief system to others. That will be a waste because brahmins are super intelligent and they know what is good and bad.

LOL.

The social status of ICMs :

In the eyes of people who proclaim that they are adhering to Vedhic views the descendants of ICMs are Sudhras.

In modern outlook ICMs are progressive minded, cohesive with the environment etc.

yesmohan said:

The social status of ICMs :

In the eyes of people who proclaim that they are adhering to Vedhic views the descendants of ICMs are Sudhras.

In modern outlook ICMs are progressive minded, cohesive with the environment etc.

Click to expand...

Very polarizing and emotional comment. ICMs also "proclaim" they are liberal, progressive etc.. but when things do not go their way (not getting B alliance), they leave India citing India is intolerant :eyebrows:. One thing for sure,the hypocrisy and bigotry knows no bounds on both sides of the aisle.

There was a time Brahmins married only in their sect vaishnava or saiva and sub sect vadagalai or thengalai for vaishnavite , vadama , brahcharanam , Artha sastram..for saivites.

Now over the years it is relaxed and most are happy to accept the same sect overlooking subsects minimally or in many cases accepting other sects vaishnavas and

saivites.

It is possible further relaxation will happen to include any brahmin all over india , and perhaps forward castes close to brahmins -observing vaishnavite/saivite rituals.

This is likely to happen due to emergence of other economically stronger other sects and they aspiring to marry those belonging to brahmin community.

Within the brahmin community also many might be tempted to consider ICM or IRM keeping their educational, financial status in mind and finding brahmin matches not ready to

fulfill the aspirations of new educated working brahmin women who are not ready to accept the harsh rituals and way of life they are forced to observe in brahmin

families. This extreme behaviour IMHO is because brahmin community is paternalistic and status of women is very inferior to men in brahmin families. Hence these

women try to escape and find solace and delivery by opting for other communities where they think their status will improve.Sometimes , they find they have jumped

from frying pan into the fire and regret their decision . In others ,they are lucky to get a better option.My feeling is a successful marriage depends on both boys and

girls bond with each other and their families after marriage not on caste or sub caste.Any marriage can be a good marriage if only both boy and girl work to make it

successful.