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Religious Conversion.

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Brahmanyan

Brahmanyan

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It s strange to see that Political Parties clamour for seeking the attention of media on the issue of religious conversion especially when it relates reconversion to Hinduism. Religious conversions are taking place quietly on regular basis, by Christian Missionaries especially among the dalits in rural and urban areas without compunction. No one raised any objection to it !

In fact "After independence the Parliament took up the issue of conversion through a legislation named Indian Conversion (Regulation and Registration) Bill in 1954 and Backward Communities (Religious Protection) Bill in 1960. However, both the bills were dropped due to lack of enough support. In 1979, a private member’s bill on Freedom of Religions Bill could not see the light of the day because of widespread resistance from secular and Christian bodies."

However, In 1981, It was the Congress Government headed by Mrs. Indira Gandhi and not the BJP that issued directive to the states to enact legislations prohibiting such conversions..

A few States like Madhya Pradesh and Odisha have passed legislation against religious conversions. Tamil Nadu Prohibition of Forcible Conversion of Religion Act in 2002 is also on similar lines. Some others states of India – Gujarat, Chhattisgarh, Himachal Pradesh, and Arunachal Pradesh have adopted such laws prohibiting forced conversions in their respective states to effectively check the conversion of innocent tribals and poor people. Jharkhand, Karnataka, and Manipur also considered such legislation in their states. Interestingly while these enactments prohibits conversions there is a Supreme Court decision permitting 'reconversion'. "If a low caste Hindu who had converted to another faith or any of his descendants reconverts to Hinduism, he might get back his original caste (Kailash Sonkar (1984) 2 SCC 91; S. Raja Gopal AIR 1969 SC 101)."

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Brahmanyan said:
"If a low caste Hindu who had converted to another faith or any of his descendants reconverts to Hinduism, he might get back his original caste (Kailash Sonkar (1984) 2 SCC 91; S. Raja Gopal AIR 1969 SC 101)."

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
Click to expand...


So it is indeed true that caste can change!LOL

I always thought caste cant change.

I dont get it..what has caste got to do with religion?

Just becos someone changes their religion why does his caste 'change" too?

It is either someone denounces his caste fully whatever his religion is or stick to it no matter what the religion is.

Swinging like a pendulum does not make any sense in my opinion.

I wonder after reconversion to Hinduism and a person gets back his old caste that means for the lower caste its back to the lower end of the food chain.

I feel if Hindus want to reconvert lower caste/tribals etc they should start treating them better with dignity and respect and not just reconvert them to gain political mileage.
 
Caste system exists among hindus

Many convert to escape discrimination based on caste besides allurement offered

Many would like to have the benefit based on their caste in hindu religion provided by govt,

Technically other religions do not have caste system . however these converted entities want the benefits due to their original caste in hindu religion

Govt passed some legislation for dalit christians and some marginal groups in other religions such as buddhist sc/st

The tragedy is some can change religion but cannot escape the discrimination due to caste even after change of religion.

but in very poor classes religion has no meaning

whichever religion gives economic benefits ,it is OK with them.
 
Now I got a question..many Syrian Christians claim they were Brahmins and also D'souzas for example claim they were Gowda Saraswat Brahmin converts..so if they re-convert to Hinduism do they get back their Brahmin status?
 
I am a tamil iyengar by birth . One of my relatives married a syrian christian from kerala . She is a tamil iyengar by marriage with gothra. why not?

we have severe shortage of brahmin educated girls. If such brahmin converts can be located, they can be converted to brahmins . that will reduce the girl shortage .
 
krish44 said:
I am a tamil iyengar by birth . One of my relatives married a syrian christian from kerala . She is a tamil iyengar by marriage with gothra. why not?

we have severe shortage of brahmin educated girls. If such brahmin converts can be located, they can be converted to brahmins . that will reduce the girl shortage .
Click to expand...

Should not be a problem since Jaykay says that Ramanuja is St Thomas..so the transition for Iyengars should be easy.
 
99% of conversion is due to money and promised better life incentives. 10500 crore foreign money inflow through ngos is used mainly for conversion by covert practices. Caste has very little to do with this, because, the converts retain their caste, do not climb up socially, except immediate economic benefit.

Improving the economic status of poor will reduce the problem. Giving money incentive for reconversion is a temporary good move as the fight is now on equal terms. Reconversion on a large scale will the raise the issue to a more visible and debating level.

As far as the national policy is concerned there is no discrimination. Local discrimination in rights to property, access, temple related issued have to be tackled at the local level by concerned citizens and politicians and administrators. IF a group cannot enter a temple owned by another group, it is wiser to help them build their own temple with their devata.

Recently, in the government school in karnataka, students boycotted mid day lunch because a dalit cook was employed as per the reservation scheme. The current chief minister studied in this school. How to handle this problem? If only the CM had gone to the school and shared midday meal other students too will return. I think the cook was given paid leave and another cook was employed.
 
BJP president Amit Shah today participated in a TV discussion titled as ‘Aaj Tak Agenda’. Here are the glimpses of what he said during this discussion.

-On religious conversions, BJP leader Venkaiah Naidu has clearly spoken about party’s stand. BJP wants a law against religious conversions across the nation. Religious conversions will not stop through media, it will stop by a stringent law. And therefore there’s need to bring law, but I guarantee that no other party will come to surface to support such law except BJP. While others are into vote-bank politics, it is BJP that genuinely wants to stop forceful conversions by bringing a law. If there’s no problem in conversion why are they opposing this(Agra) incident? Media wouldn’t dare to ask question to other parties that why they don’t support anti-conversion law. Suppose if such question is asked, anchor of that show will be replaced. Rahul(Aaj Tak news channel anchor) will be replaced with Punya Prasun Vajpayee.It’s wrong if there’s forceful conversion. But whether some incident involves forceful conversion or not will be decided by court. But why other parties don’t take BJP’s proposal to bring law against forceful conversion? So called secular parties are into vote-bank politics.
 
This conversion has assumed gigantic proportions in Tamil Nadu...Villages after villages are being converted..I came to know about this from a Hindu whose wife is Christian...Understand over a period of 10 years NGO's mainly Christian NGO's have channeled 100000 crores into India ...Assuming they give 2 lac (a guess..this ought to be more may be Rs 5 lacs)..to a family who converts, no of converted Hindus will be a whopping 50 lacs families...And it is only growing...
 
hindus need also reform their religion to be inclusive across caste barriers and reduce discrimination based on caste alone.

brahmins have maximum bad feeling towards other castes.

they do not allow other castes into their kitchen , do not employ NB cooks , keep them away from religeous functions home, practise subtle discrimnatory practices

showing other castes in poor light.

even in temples , archakars belonging to brahmin community give preferential treatment to brahmins.

marriage is a big no-no to other castes - to the extent of absolute refusal to consider matches from NB communities.

The intolerance of brahmins from one subsect with another could turn off all right thinking people.

This isolation and discriminatory practises can lead only to further caste polarisation ,hostility and more conversions by the lowest in the caste pyramid to other

religions.

If other religions incentivise with money , the poor are bound to accept it and switch over to another religion.

It is finally economics. If people go hungry ,religion is a luxury.

similarly , brahmins do not become liberal in thinking and stick to gold and silver demands from educated employed girls, adopt outmoded religeous practices like madi , thooram,nine yards sari and expect them to cook for extended

families , our girls would definitely choose other castes who are more liberal and welcome them with open arms and give them a better lifestyle.

there needs to be some introspection and change .

those who have gone to other parts of country from tamil nadu or gone abroad escape all this. they prefer local people irrespective of caste , religion
 
renuka said:
So it is indeed true that caste can change!LOL

I always thought caste cant change.
I dont get it..what has caste got to do with religion?
Just becos someone changes their religion why does his caste 'change" too?
It is either someone denounces his caste fully whatever his religion is or stick to it no matter what the religion is.
Swinging like a pendulum does not make any sense in my opinion.
I wonder after reconversion to Hinduism and a person gets back his old caste that means for the lower caste its back to the lower end of the food chain.
I feel if Hindus want to reconvert lower caste/tribals etc they should start treating them better with dignity and respect and not just reconvert them to gain political mileage.
Click to expand...

Doctor,

True. This doubt occurred to me when I read about mass reconversion of Jains and Buddhists in Tamil Nadu during the period of Sambandar and Thondaradipodi Alwar. I presume that Caste was retained while people got converted to Jainism and and Buddhism and again while they re-reconverted to Hindu fold.

Since Caste was related to the profession and social standing of the people, it cannot be wished away easily from the society. It is very much prevalent among other religions as well. It is an accepted fact that the people from oppressed Caste want safety and status in Society, than any thing else. The Missionaries exploit this lacuna and convert the hapless people. Another important factor is the protection that the converts get from the Church. The parish maintains proper records of the followers and extend financial and other help at the time of need. They work in the field of education, health and even conduct de-addiction program. These people gain some status in the Society which was denied due to their caste. Unfortunately Hindu society at large is yet not prepared to accept these downtrodden as equals in spite of various legal measures taken by the Government.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
BNangalore.
 
If people resort to religious conversion to escape caste conflicts, the best religion to convert to would be Sikhism. In fact, Ambedkar had some very interesting observations on conversions. See below:

Dr. Ambedkar on religious conversions:

Explaining in detail why he chose Sikhism, Ambedkar ...observed:
"The second question is, looking at these alternative
faiths purely from the standpoint of the Hindus, which is the
best—IsIam, Christianity or Sikhism? Obviously, Sikhism is the
best. If the Depressed Classes join Islam or Christianity, they not
only go out of the Hindu religion, but they also go out of the
Hindu culture. On the other hand, if they become Sikhs they
remain within the Hindu culture. This is by no means a small
advantage to the Hindus."

"What the consequences of conversion will be to the country
as a whole," he continued, "is well worth bearing in mind.
Conversion to Islam or Christianity will denationalize the
Depressed Classes. If they go over to Islam, the number of
Muslims would be doubled; and the danger of Muslim domination
also becomes real. If they go over to Christianity, the numerical
strength of the Christians becomes five to six crores. It will help
to strengthen the hold of Britain on the country. On the other
hand, if they embrace Sikhism, they will not only not harm the
destiny of the country but they will help the destiny of the
country. They will not be denationalized. On the contrary, they
will be a help in the political advancement of the country. Thus
it is in the interest of the country that the Depressed Classes, if
they are to change their faith, should go over to Sikhism."


See pages 279-280 in the book by Dhananjay Keer
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Naina_Marbus said:
If people resort to religious conversion to escape caste conflicts, the best religion to convert to would be Sikhism. In fact, Ambedkar had some very interesting observations on conversions. See below:

Dr. Ambedkar on religious conversions:

Explaining in detail why he chose Sikhism, Ambedkar ...observed:
Click to expand...

Did he not convert to Buddhism?
 
it is ridiculous to put the blame on hindu religion, because caste as we understand and practice is neither mentioned or approved in sastras. we have made a masala of varna and caste, which has made the issue complex and difficult to analyze.

groups of people who migrated and settled in any province wanted to preserve their independence, culture and way of life, applied to the king who sanctioned it. in fact the right to carry a name and rights and privileges associated with that named group was legalized by the king. when a group of say sculptors or metal workers or carpenters settled in a different land, they formed a new jati recognized by the king and local society.

in tiruchy district, a group of thieves were notified as 'kallar caste'; this name stuck and tag is still carried, even though, many are now rich landlords and politicians. how does one explain so many subsects in brahmin varna.

unity has nothing to do with uniformity. all jatis have lived in harmony for ages; perceived and real social problems are unnecessarily foisted on caste; we must work for a harmonious jati centric society; not a soulless 'caste-less' society.
 
CHANDRU1849 said:
Did he not convert to Buddhism?
Click to expand...

Oh yes, he changed his mind subsequently.

Ambedkar had considered converting to Sikhism, which saw oppression as something to be fought against and which for that reason appealed to him as also to other leaders of scheduled castes.

But he rejected the idea after meeting with leaders of the Sikh community and concluding that his conversion might result in him having a "second-rate status" among Sikhs.

He studied Buddhism all his life, and around 1950, he turned his attention fully to Buddhism and travelled to Sri Lanka to attend a meeting of the World Fellowship of Buddhists. While dedicating a new Buddhist vihara near Pune, Ambedkar announced that he was writing a book on Buddhism, and that as soon as it was finished, he planned to make a formal conversion to Buddhism. Ambedkar twice visited Burma in 1954; the second time in order to attend the third conference of the World Fellowship of Buddhists in Rangoon. In 1955, he founded the Bharatiya Bauddha Mahasabha, or the Buddhist Society of India. He completed his final work, The Buddha and His Dhamma, in 1956. It was published posthumously - he died in December 1956.

After meetings with the Sri Lankan Buddhist monk Hammalawa Saddhatissa, Ambedkar organised a formal public ceremony for himself and his supporters in Nagpur on 14 October 1956. Accepting the “Three Refuges and Five Precepts” from a Buddhist monk in the traditional manner, Ambedkar completed his own conversion, along with his wife. He then proceeded to convert some 500,000 of his supporters who were gathered around him.

-wikipedia
 
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krish44 said:
I am a tamil iyengar by birth . One of my relatives married a syrian christian from kerala . She is a tamil iyengar by marriage with gothra. why not?

we have severe shortage of brahmin educated girls. If such brahmin converts can be located, they can be converted to brahmins . that will reduce the girl shortage .
Click to expand...

Whoa Krishji, you are creating an Obama like immigration policy via executive order.
 
krish44 said:
I am a tamil iyengar by birth . One of my relatives married a syrian christian from kerala . She is a tamil iyengar by marriage with gothra. why not?

we have severe shortage of brahmin educated girls. If such brahmin converts can be located, they can be converted to brahmins . that will reduce the girl shortage .
Click to expand...
Dear Krish Sir,

Why don't you not become a GURU and change the society? :blah:

BTW, why would girls from other religions convert as brahmins?
I guess, these ambis will be forced to convert! :moony:
 
conversion to hindu faith is being encouraged by the party in power in india.

if anyway it is going to happen, why not select the best for brahmin status?

we can atleast get good girls for our children
 
Raji Ram said:
The million $ Q is: Do people want to convert as brahmins?
Click to expand...
We do not realise how painful it is suffer discrimination due to belonging to caste considered lower in social scale or minority religions and are poor

Many would be very happy to be brahmins.

many from these classes would be very happy to marry brahmin boys and would probably observe all our customs and conform better as compared to born brahmins
 
Raji Ram said:
May your dream come true, Krish Sir! :pray:
Click to expand...
I have two christians in my extended family

One a lady, wears sindoor and performs all brahmin rituals including annual shrad for inlaws.

Another a male who performed grihapravesam and marriage of daughter with sacred fire and doing all the hindu poojas as the prospective son in law was tamil

iyengar.

both married brahmins as they loved their brahmin matches and are following/followed hindu customs.

It is not a dream at all.
 
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