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It is said that all are sudras by birth!

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V.Balasubramani

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To my knowledge, the Dharmasastra or Rig Veda says that there are four varnas (1) Brahmana (2) Kshatriya/Rajanya (3) Vaishyas and (4) Sudras …

Today I just stumbled upon the following sloka:

“ஜன்மனா ஜாயதே சூத்திர: சம்ச்காரேர் த்விஜ உச்சதே”

To my knowledge the near English translation is that all are Sudras by birth and reach the rank of Brahmana by observing samskarams

Comments please..
 
This is good news. I wish there were more Shudras, because it appears that Shudras are the most productive members of society. Shudras are the one who farm and produce food for everybody (including all other castes). They work in factories and produce real goods. They do menial labor moving things, cleaning things, building things, breaking things. Without Shudras the upper castes would have no food to eat, no clothes to wear, no houses to live in. They would either be engaged in unproductive trading, fighting and repressing and empty theorizing.

May the Shudras prosper and multiply.
 
hi

JANMANA JAAYATE SUDRAHA....KARMANA TU DWIJAHA......yes all are sudra by birth....ONLY AFTER UPANAYANAM ....SO POONAL

IS APPLICABLE FOR BRAHMINS/KSHATRIYAS/VAISHYAS TOOO...NO UPANAYANAM FOR SUDRAH....
 
We have discussed Caste in this site at least 1000 times. We are never going to reach a satisfactory solution. Even if reach it on this site we will never see it implemented.

So if everyone is born Sudra, then the paternalistic model of Caste is out of the window, that is not happening in India for at least another 100 years.
If all are born Sudra, then all must have a path to become Any other caste say Brahmin. That is not happening in India.
Caste by birth is here to stay in India.
 
I feel everyone is born a human and thats all!

Why do we need to classify ourselves just becos some ancient person felt he needed to classify humans based on some unproven criteria?
 
renuka said:
I feel everyone is born a human and thats all!

Why do we need to classify ourselves just becos some ancient person felt he needed to classify humans based on some unproven criteria?
Click to expand...


Doctor Mam,

Agreed.

I know pretty well that such a posting will attract more brick bats from Members.

Initially I wanted to know as to which Hindu text this piece of sloka belongs to and from google search I found it to be ' Sri Sankara Vijayam'. I am yet to go through this site and confirm but interested to learn more about that ancient person whom we frequently refer in this Forum.

When we want him we refer conveniently his slokas and when we dislike something we try to ignore it!

Look at the caption. 'Tamil Brahmins Forum'. It is a caste based caption. We will be discussing only more about castes here.

Anyway we cannot be discussing about Modi, BJP and his Govt, its shortcomings all the time.

Hope you understand.:)
 
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V.Balasubramani said:
Doctor Mam,

Agreed.

I know pretty well that such a posting will attract more brick bats from Members.

Initially I wanted to know as to which Hindu text this piece of sloka belongs and from google search I found it to be 'Sankara Vijayam'. I am yet to go through this site and confirm but interested to learn more about that ancient person whom we frequently refer in this Forum.
When we want him we refer conveniently his slokas and when we dislike something we try to ignore it!

Look at the caption. 'Tamil Brahmins Forum'. It is a caste based caption. We will be discussing only more about castes here.

Anyway we cannot be discussing about Modi, BJP and his Govt, its shortcomings all the time.

Hope you understand.:)
Click to expand...

Dear Bala sir,

I feel if people want to divide humans than they better decide what they really want.

Some say everyone is born a Shudra and then climbs up the spiritual scale of Varna to reach the top.

For me its simple...we are born humans..and we age and we die.

That is the only evolution I know...

Birth...Aging...Death.

BTW the same person whom you say said this also spoke volumes about Advaita yet he asked the Chandala to move away from his path.

I know may be he wanted to show the world that never to pre judge anyone but still it makes you wonder "hey when you talk so much about Advaita how come it took you so long to have sama darshinah when many simple un- enlightened human beings have sama darshinah without even knowin Advaita"

So Bala sir..that is why this whole caste is confusing..as I said I only know Birth--Aging---Death!


That is one classification that has ever existed and stood the test of time.
 
V.Balasubramani said:
Doctor Mam,

Agreed.

I know pretty well that such a posting will attract more brick bats from Members.

Initially I wanted to know as to which Hindu text this piece of sloka belongs to and from google search I found it to be ' Sri Sankara Vijayam'. I am yet to go through this site and confirm but interested to learn more about that ancient person whom we frequently refer in this Forum.

When we want him we refer conveniently his slokas and when we dislike something we try to ignore it!

Look at the caption. 'Tamil Brahmins Forum'. It is a caste based caption. We will be discussing only more about castes here.

Anyway we cannot be discussing about Modi, BJP and his Govt, its shortcomings all the time.

Hope you understand.:)
Click to expand...

Interesting post! I think it is possible to have good and mature discussion. Looking for more of your findings
 
V.Balasubramani said:
Doctor Mam,

Agreed.

I know pretty well that such a posting will attract more brick bats from Members.

Initially I wanted to know as to which Hindu text this piece of sloka belongs to and from google search I found it to be ' Sri Sankara Vijayam'. I am yet to go through this site and confirm but interested to learn more about that ancient person whom we frequently refer in this Forum.

When we want him we refer conveniently his slokas and when we dislike something we try to ignore it!

Look at the caption. 'Tamil Brahmins Forum'. It is a caste based caption. We will be discussing only more about castes here.

Anyway we cannot be discussing about Modi, BJP and his Govt, its shortcomings all the time.

Hope you understand.:)
Click to expand...

Adi Shankara did not say so. This is from Mahabharata. (https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/advaitin/conversations/topics/52222). Caste is a thing which will be impossible to wipe out from India, unless some foreign casteless power invades and rules us all for another few centuries. Till then we brahmins can gloat over our brahmana status and hope to be seated next to Vishnu in Vaikuntam (or, next to Lord Parameswara in Kailasam) in all glory!!
 
renuka said:
1. I feel everyone is born a human and thats all!

2. Why do we need to classify ourselves just becos some ancient person felt he needed to classify humans based on some unproven criteria?
Click to expand...
1. One Ambi who wants to become Rahman from Raman also says so! :decision:

2. I suppose these classifications were based on the jobs they do.

P.S: As Prasad Sir says, we have discussed this umpteen times in our forum!

But never tired of that! ;)
 
Look at the caption. 'Tamil Brahmins Forum'. It is a caste based caption.
Click to expand...

Brahnins is not a caste; it is a varna. Why should we use a portugese origin word, imposed on us by the british to describe ourselves?
 
sangom said:
Adi Shankara did not say so. This is from Mahabharata. (https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/advaitin/conversations/topics/52222). Caste is a thing which will be impossible to wipe out from India, unless some foreign casteless power invades and rules us all for another few centuries. Till then we brahmins can gloat over our brahmana status and hope to be seated next to Vishnu in Vaikuntam (or, next to Lord Parameswara in Kailasam) in all glory!!
Click to expand...


Sangom Ji,

Thanks for the information.

It is really a good thing to have a ‘casteless society’. It was also the dream of some of our great leaders.

But the unfortunate thing is that our country is soaked with multiple caste system for over several centuries.

I go by this song of Bharathiyar.

சாதிகள் இல்லையடி பாப்பா - குலத்
தாழ்த்தி உயர்த்தி சொல்லல் பாவம் – பாரதியார்
 
renuka said:
I feel everyone is born a human and thats all!

Why do we need to classify ourselves just becos some ancient person felt he needed to classify humans based on some unproven criteria?
Click to expand...
Even if we don't classify ourselves, society at large does. You are either a doctor, engineer, plumber, carpenter, electrician, etc etc. And strangely, each such classified member in general seems to be comfortable in the company of its own kind. Is that a pseudo-caste mentality or prescribed by some ancient person? Protestations that " I am not like that," imply outliers to a normal human tendency.
 
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A classification by merit, wealth, strength or other individual ability is not same as birth based classification. Merit and strength can be acquired by the individual and is upto the individual. This kind if classification is inevitable is all societies, including animals. But birth based like caste is totally unfair.
Similarly Race and gender segregation should not be allowed.
 
Agree with Prasadji. Professional distinctions are quite distinct from birth-based rights. Also there is no clear hierarchy of professions (except the illegal ones). In the US, a plumber makes more per hour than a software engineer, so he does not really have to take s... from the SWE. :)

Also a plumber's son is not pre-ordained to be a plumber.
 
V.Balasubramani said:

To my knowledge, the Dharmasastra or Rig Veda says ..
Click to expand...

Sir,

In all humility, did God say so sir?

I think God is above and greater than the vedas.

did God put any label on us when we were born?

were we born with any label?

i have never known of any human being ever born with a label in this world sir.

when the skin of every human being is peeled, every one looks alike sir.

ultimately when we remove the flesh, what remains is skeleton. there is no sudra skeleton or brahmin skeleton sir.

please enlighten this ignorant soul that I am, sir!
 
Naina_Marbus said:
Even if we don't classify ourselves, society at large does. You are either a doctor, engineer, plumber, carpenter, electrician, etc etc. And strangely, each such classified member in general seems to be comfortable in the company of its own kind. Is that a pseudo-caste mentality or prescribed by some ancient person? Protestations that " I am not like that," imply outliers to a normal human tendency.
Click to expand...

I was not born a doctor.

That came much later and that's just my job...not a classification.

I hope you see the difference.

In fact I did not protest anywhere in my post.I was merely stating a fact...that everyone is born a human...well you can disagree with that if you want!LOL
 
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BRAHMACHARI said:
Sir,

ultimately when we remove the flesh, what remains is skeleton. there is no sudra skeleton or brahmin skeleton sir.

please enlighten this ignorant soul that I am, sir!
Click to expand...

There is still a OC skeleton, BC skeleton, MBC skeleton, OBC skeleton, Minorities skeleton, SC skeleton, ST skeletons etc. Anyone pretending otherwise are fooling themselves.
 
However hoarsely one may shout his beliefs and preferences, there is varna classification sanctioned by our dharmic scriptures. They also say that all 'atmas' are samam and not ekam, can take birth in human or animal bodies. One can always express his like or dislike, but social order follows different rules and routes. No Hindu spiritual or religious leader has opposed varna system. Discrimination and I'll treatment present or perceived as per today's norms can always be discussed and minimized. It is a futile exercise to carry a don quixotic sword and wave it in air.
Our scriptures talk about rights and privileges and behaviour; even today rights are curtailed if misused.
 
BRAHMACHARI said:
Sir,

In all humility, did God say so sir?

I think God is above and greater than the vedas.

did God put any label on us when we were born?

were we born with any label?

i have never known of any human being ever born with a label in this world sir.

when the skin of every human being is peeled, every one looks alike sir.

ultimately when we remove the flesh, what remains is skeleton. there is no sudra skeleton or brahmin skeleton sir.

please enlighten this ignorant soul that I am, sir!
Click to expand...


Brahmachari Ji,

Why do you unnecessarily drag God here?

No one has seen the Almighty God and no one has heard what he said and we simply go by the available Vedic scriptures ( Vedas and Dharmasastras).

I have never mentioned anywhere in my thread as ‘God’ said. What has been mentioned was that to my knowledge Veda and Dharsastra says….

The thread is about this sloka:

janmana jayate sudrah
samskarad bhaved dvijah
veda-pathad bhaved vipra
brahma janatiti brahmanah

and the source of this Shloka is MahaBharatha Shanthi Parva 188.

I believe you would have gone through the following link posted in Posting No.8. If not, please go through this and revert back.

[url]https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/advaitin/conversations/topics/52222[/URL]

While the Sastras speaks about Varna, the Government prescribes caste system and we live in a society practicing multiple caste system strictly abiding the Acts, Rules imposed by the Governments concerned from time to time.

I appreciate your opinion.


 
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கால பைரவன்;271302 said:
There is still a OC skeleton, BC skeleton, MBC skeleton, OBC skeleton, Minorities skeleton, SC skeleton, ST skeletons etc. Anyone pretending otherwise are fooling themselves.
Click to expand...


Well said Sir.
 
V.Balasubramani said:

While the Sastras speaks about Varna, the Government prescribes caste system and we live in a society practicing multiple caste system strictly abiding the Acts, Rules imposed by the Governments concerned from time to time.
Click to expand...


Dear Bala sir,

You brought up a relevant point..that is since Mahabharat Shanti Parva says everyone is born a Shudra..so someone should highlight this to the Government that there is only 1 caste and that is everyone is a Shudra and finally India can do away with the reservation system.

Why no one thought of highlighting this to the Government?

May be with the new Government which has a better understanding of religion would be able to settle this reservation matter once and for all.

I feel reservation if any should be based on income of family..so that the poorer section of society regardless of birth caste would benefit.
 
renuka said:
Dear Bala sir,

I feel reservation if any should be based on income of family..so that the poorer section of society regardless of birth caste would benefit.
Click to expand...


Doctor Mam,

While a section aspire for a ‘casteless society’, in the existing political scenario it can only prove to be a ‘day dream’. It is the opinion of the majority that prevails.
 
V.Balasubramani said:
Doctor Mam,

While a section aspire for a ‘casteless society’, in the existing political scenario it can only prove to be a ‘day dream’. It is the opinion of the majority that prevails.
Click to expand...

Dear Bala sir,


You see since Mahabharat says that everyone is born a Shudra.

Then the definition of Brahmana is a person who has realized Brahman...(hardly anyone knows Brahman!)

So going by that...that means there are only Shudras..so it need not a be a casteless society...its will be one Big Shudra Happy Family..no reservations and no discrimination.

Dalits themselves will be absorbed into the mainstream and become Shudras like everyone else. So the problem of untouchability itself is solved.

So its good that you brought up a very relevant point that everyone is a Shudra.
 
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