Fighting our enemies

Dear Folks,

I am not talking of a war or any external battle but about the battle within the mind. It is that battle that matters the most and one that has to be won. All religions agree that the minds of the human beings come with problems and that they need to be remedied. Be it the Ten commandments or the seven deadly sins or the six enemies they talk about the fallibility of human mind.

In this thread I would like to take the six enemies mentioned in Hinduism as a reference and discuss what the presence of each signifies i.e., why should they be present in the first place and what purpose each of them serve? The six enemies are:

1. kama — lust
2. krodha — anger
3. lobh — greed
4. moha — delusory emotional attachment or temptation
5. mada or ahankara — pride, hubris
6. matsarya — envy, jealousy

I would like the thread to be of practical utility and so I once I give my views on the significance of the presence of each of the internal enemies, I would like to present problematic practical situations where the enemies are at play and give my views on what would be the best outcome in that situation. That is I would discuss why the situation represents a problem and what real reasons contribute to the problem in terms of the above emotions and how each member can choose his best course of action . The best course of action/thoughts of a person in my view is something that would let his emotions on the issue subside and disappear.

Normally the learning is done by personal experiences and direct understanding. But if principles can be distilled out of the experiences and be followed, may be the learning can be accelerated.

I look forward to active contributions of the members to this thread.

sravna said:

In this thread I would like to take the six enemies mentioned in Hinduism as a reference and discuss what the presence of each signifies i.e., why should they be present in the first place and what purpose each of them serve? The six enemies are:

1. kama — lust
2. krodha — anger
3. lobh — greed
4. moha — delusory emotional attachment or temptation
5. mada or ahankara — pride, hubris
6. matsarya — envy, jealousy

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Dear Sravna,

The Arishad Vargas (6 enemies).

I have taken a different approach.

I prefer to call the 6 enemies as 6 Acquaintances.

My reasons?

The following..

I dont want to create polarity in my mind anymore.

Enemy is a harsh word..if we consider anything or anyone an enemy that shows that we ourselves have some amount of hatred/prejudice in us.

So how can we get over anything when we view something as our enemy? We would subconsciously create a fixation in our mind and when this fixation becomes out of control we have extremism where a severe Holier Than Thou attitude arises which at times leads to violence in thoughts, words and deeds.

At times I wonder why religion did not take a logical approach that is to analyse the reasons behind the Kama,Krodha,Lobha,Moha,Mada and Matsarya so that we can realize the causative factors, the etiology,diagnosis,differential diagnosis, treatment and how to handle a relapse and finally moving beyond these 6.

So for me I am not going to acknowledge these 6 as my friends or my enemies.

These 6 will remain acquaintances..that is something I might know but not know too well enough to let it take over my mind.

So lets analyse each one.

Let me start with Kama

Kama is basically desire..Lust is just one of the desires.

Kama does not mean Lust alone.

Even the desire for something good still falls under Kama.

Desire arises in the mind for personal and communal well being.

The human body needs healthy doses of Kama even to live and procreate.

The human body does not procreate on it own like an ameoba splitting into two.

It needs a basic drive to live and procreate.

So to a great extent..Kama in healthy doses is vital for life.

Only an overdose needs intervention.

I will write about others later.

Krodha...anger.

Its an adrenaline based fight flight response..again some amount of anger is needed for the body to react as in self defense.

So we can not be totally "anger" free.

Anger also is display of one's domain and importance.

We develop anger as we grow becos we develop the feeling of mine and thine.

For example if a child is playing with a toy and someone takes it away from him..a child might throw a temper tantrum.

The reason becos the child feels his possession has been taken away from him.

Now how did this feeling develop?

It must have been becos of evolution of thought of early humans..anger was needed to protect one's own tribe from invaders and danger and so on.

Now if we know the basis for this..there is no reason to fear anger or think of it as an enemy.

If we know that we need it in emergency situations of fight and flight we can understand that we are in total control of ourselves and anger has no acute grip on us in any situation.

Dear Renuka,

OK, if you want to call these six as acquaintances that's fine. Let me talk about the first which you analyzed i.e., kama.

Here's my analysis. Kama being lust which is excessive desire, is desire that does not exist in the right measure. As sexual desire it is something that exists even in animals and so is one of the fundamental acquaintances we are talking about. What does it mean to be fundamental? It is something that endures and is not easily done away with. The reason as you state is, births have to happen and for that sexual desire is necessary.

An excess of emotions happen because only then one understands how to find balance by seeking one's complement. So we find extremes , that is excess of something and also dearth of the same thing. Physical world is about helping one to find balance through one's experiences and the knowledge. If everything is perfectly balanced there is no need for a physical world as it is as good as a spiritual one.

More about other acquaintances later.

sravnaji
These six items you have mentioned can hardly be called enemies.

Only one requires them in right proportions

We are here to live life to the fullest.

If we take away these, what is left of human beings .

only a vegetable existence.

these qualities make a man and everyone is required to have them in right proportions depending on need

none of them IMHO is our enemy

Continuing my post on anger(Krodha)...

Anger can also be a manifestation of an endocrine imbalance.

Those who have elevated levels of thyroid hormones and cortisol tend to have anger management issues.

Women with Pre menstrual Syndrome or worse still Premenstrual Dysmorphic Disorder have severe anger issues during the pre menses time of the month.

Rage and anger is also seen in depression.

So for me instead of seeing anger as an enemy..I would first try to rule out underlying medical issues and treat it.

I only wish religion could see that certain situations are treatable and there is no need to launch a holy war against anger or any other so called "enemy".

Dear Sravna,

Lobha-------- greed.

What is greed?

Greed is an intense desire to accumulate.

So Kama is also linked to Lobha becos one needs intense desire(kama) to start the cascade of accumulation.

I personally feel the substratum of Lobha is fear.

I prefer to picture a primitive scenario..where becos of forces of nature like floods. drought..which lead to famine and death men started to feel insecure.

Somewhere down his psyche he started to feel that he needs to accumulate for safe keeping so that he will not face famine or lack of basic needs like grains, money etc.

Now this feeling to accumulate got embedded in the us humans and we carried it along in our mind and passed this feeling down to our progeny.

So instead of suppressing any feeling ..its is better we stop to think.."how much do I need to accumulate? What is it do I fear? How much is the minimum that I need to accumulate so that in times of need I wont be at the mercy of anyone else and how much do I need to provide for myself and family"

So the person just needs to start thinking of saving..take some insurance etc..investment..without the need of hoarding and getting into illegal ways of accumulating wealth dues to Lobha.


So what is so hard to deal with Lobha?

sravna said:

Dear Renuka,

OK, if you want to call these six as acquaintances that's fine. Let me talk about the first which you analyzed i.e., kama.

Here's my analysis. Kama being lust which is excessive desire, is desire that does not exist in the right measure. As sexual desire it is something that exists even in animals and so is one of the fundamental acquaintances we are talking about. What does it mean to be fundamental? It is something that endures and is not easily done away with. The reason as you state is, births have to happen and for that sexual desire is necessary.

An excess of emotions happen because only then one understands how to find balance by seeking one's complement. So we find extremes , that is excess of something and also dearth of the same thing. Physical world is about helping one to find balance through one's experiences and the knowledge. If everything is perfectly balanced there is no need for a physical world as it is as good as a spiritual one.

More about other acquaintances later.

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Dear Sravna,

If everything is in perfect balance as in an equilibrium even the phenomenal world wont exists.

In a state of equilibrium of the Gunas nothing existed..it was a tilt in the scale of the Gunas that kick started the "creation' of the phenomenal world.

I dont really feel we need to be trying to achieve balance by over trying..over trying to get a balance is just titling the scales to another end.

The question is simple .."To Be or not To Be"

"To Be" is just being natural..being ourselves..in perfect harmony with existence..using our emotions to deal with the occasional imperfections in life.

there are only two enemies here. can we guess their names?. they are lovable persons. who would like to fight them?lol

krish44 said:

there are only two enemies here. can we guess their names?. they are lovable persons. who would like to fight them?lol

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I know..one is Krish ji and the other is ?????LOL(just kidding).

I think I know who you mean..but one of them is lovable yet deadly!LOL

Moha----delusionary/emotional attachment.

Moha feeds the human ego.

Everyone needs a dose from time to time to feel good. To be enchanted by something or someone and get a feedback to our liking boosts confidence level.

Moha can be a double edge sword that is it can go either way..that is if we are not careful we can totally be the losing end but if we know to be in charge of even emotional attachment we can be the mastermind and enjoy the harem of life.

For the person who is getting deluded he/she likes the feeling too becos he/she feels important.

For the person who is the Mohana/Mohini (the one who is enchanting the other)..he/she too gets a high of being in control.

Its like seeing one self in the mirror and enjoying the faces he/she sees..even though all faces are his./hers but he/she never shows the real face to the person he/she is deluding.

Moha is Maya at a microcosmic level.

One must know when and how to spin the web of delusion and the other should know not to be devoured by the web master.

Dear Sravna ji,

I see your concern is very valid. The shadripus are the ones that afflict each one of us and keep us away from realizing our own 'Brahmajyoti swaroopam'.

i) To control the shadripus, we must first be aware of our own affliction from it. An angry man for example, first has to know his own pitfall - the anger. Only when we recognize our own pitfalls, we will be able to make any progress towards improving the situation.

ii) We should be open to learn from others. We cannot improve unless we appreciate the virtues in others and try to imbibe those qualities in us. Even if our own dosha does not go away just because we appreciate others, over gradual period of time, we come to be better beings, when we can appreciate others for who they are, what they are. Besides, when we learn from others, we may be motivated more to put to practice what we learnt from them.

iii) Taking to devata worship. This is a tonic for the afflicted soul. Praying to one's family deity or ishta devata over a lifetime sincerely will work wonders towards reducing the burden of the shadripus in us.

These are just a few points I am able to think of.

Pranam,

JR

Dear Sravna,

Continuing my post..

Mada--------- Pride.

Pride is a very "extrinsic" feeling.

That is Pride is very much dependent on an external factor.

Pride needs projection of a possession.

For example...the Pride of learning, Pride of wealth,Pride of beauty,Pride of heritage etc.

All these needs to be projected or displayed in order to feel pride.

Now..what is the need of Pride? How did Pride come about in us humans?

Well..could be the since Pride requires projection and depends on external factors..Pride could have developed over time as a mode of projecting success of an individual or society.

It gave a sense of stability to a person or community that 'I am better off than others"

A successful person feels his life is more stable or "blessed" than others.

He at times connects this to being in the good books of God and invariably falls deeper into abyss of Pride and Prejudice.

If a person realizes that the feeling of Pride is external and just latching on his body like a leech feeding blood and he refuses to feed Pride anymore ..it simply disappears.

For Pride to disappear one needs to know that his true nature does not need any external projection of any kind.

He should be able to feel confident with just being himself. A person who is himself is never proud becos he is confident.

Confident here is not denoting a Superiority Complex..Confidence means just "Being in the natural state"

Dear Renuka, JR ji , Krish Ji,

Sorry for the delayed reply. AS the CAT exam is nearing, getting busy with the students.

Renuka, Good analysis. Let me give my views too soon.

Krish Ji . The six are called as enemies because they happen when emotions become excess in us. From my personal experience I can say it is possible and most desirable to be without them. W wil, discuss more of that soon.

JR ji , good points. I agree with what you say. Learning from others is an important way of learning. Would like to give my views on that too.

Dear Sravna,

Take your time to reply..no problems.

Ok let me finish my post..Matsarya being the last but not least.

Matsarya===envy/jealousy.

Matsarya is a feeling that stems when someone feels threatened.

Fear is the substratum here but its more complex than just being defensive becos jealousy at times can become a destructive force.

Jealousy also arises when a person feels he does not get the required attention and someone else is stealing his attention.

How did jealousy come about?

Well from what I have analysed it is seen in childhood itself.

First born kids who get a sibling can get extremely jealous of their new sibling becos the 1st born starts to feel that Mother loves the new baby more.

The 1st born feels a quantitative or qualitative lack of attention and the green eyed monster emerges!

The basic jealousy instinct could actually be a survival of the fittest mechanism in living organisms so that they view others as a competitor in limited resources and some amount of jealousy arises.

In animals survival of fittest feeling at times leads to aggression where they fight and might even kill each other.

Male lions are known to kill cubs of other male lions..so that the lioness without a cub will become ready for copulation again and he can dominate again by getting rid of his fellow competitors.

But animals are instinct based so this acute feeling goes off fast and only surfaces when there is a need.

But in humans since we have a more developed mind..we can harbour thoughts of jealousy more efficiently and that can lead to trouble!

How to deal with jealousy?

Firstly we have to learn to feel contented with ourselves by practicing moderation in thoughts,words and deeds.

We need to not compare ourselves with anyone becos even identical twins do not share the same Karma.

If one understands that each person has a different destiny there is no reason for anyone to feel jealous of anyone for what ever reason.

One should also not be possessive of anything or anyone and learn to give anyone some breathing space.

When we reduce a person we love to an object only then we start to feel possessive..becos we can only possess an object and not a person.

Even our spouse is technically on loan to us for this life becos if we really possess anything we should be able to direct its destiny but we cant!

We are limited by the Law of Cause and Effect.

So if one fully understands the Law of Cause and Effect..one will not feel jealous of anything or anyone.


Ok Sravna..I have finished what I wanted to say about the 6 so called enemies which I prefer to call 6 acquaintances.

I prefer to analyze each situation and understand it better in order to go beyond it.

Who is doing the fighting and where are these enemies? Only a therapist can answer I guess

a-TB said:

Who is doing the fighting and where are these enemies? Only a therapist can answer I guess

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The therapist and the patient are together searching for an enemy. Let us hope they will get the enemy soon. LOL.

a-TB said:

Who is doing the fighting and where are these enemies? Only a therapist can answer I guess

Click to expand...

There is no enemy..there is no friend either..there is no fight nor there is a peace treaty.

There is no therapist becos there is no pathology to start with.

a-TB said:

Who is doing the fighting and where are these enemies? Only a therapist can answer I guess

Click to expand...

The 6 evils of the mind are commonly referred to as 'Shadripus' and are termed enemies because if not for them, we would all be saints who will have realized our atma.

Dear Sravna,

We humans actually have an in built anger management system without the need to suppress it.

I wonder if you had seen breath holding spells in children?

Ok when children aged 2-3 get very angry or upset they tend to hold their breath ( this makes parents panic!)

Ok after the kids hold their breath..then when they let go to breathe again..their anger is almost always gone.

From what I have analysed..anger is a thoughtless state..in full rage a person does not think but anger signals are still being transmitted and then we lose inhibition and may resort to violence which we might not have even intended.

Like cases of man slaughter charges ..mostly it was committed when the person was in anger andhad no motive.

Ok back to breath holding..when we take a breath and then exhale..there is actually a gap in between inhaling and exhaling where we do not breathe.

Now in that state of non breathing we are temporarily in a refractory state and brief resting state that follows.

In the human body for anything to be transmitted via nervous system there needs to be a firing of neurons via Action Potential.

Action Potential comes with a depolarization and repolarization and with a refractory state and resting state for any impulse to be transmitted again as in the diagram below:

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So I feel that when a child holds his breath when he is angry..he prolongs this refractory state and resting state and the impulses of anger can not be transmitted for the neurons to transmit anger signals.

So after that the child ceases to be angry.

So I feel when we are angry we should try to just prolong the non breathing phase for a while.

This is only possible if we take a deep breath and then take our own sweet time to pause and then start to breath again..so that the intensity of the anger signals decreases and its not enough a voltage to be transmitted. You can see in the diagram above that failed inititaions do not give rise to an Action Potential. A minimum threshold is needed to fire an Action Potential.

We can learn a lot if we observe children and link their behavior with science and by understanding the mechanism of action of anything we can just switch off without the need to suppress anything.

Dear Sravna

The first sloka of Isavasya Up is a good antidote to the Shad ripus.

Also - as the Gita says : *sadrsam chestate swasyaah prakrteh Jnanavaan api. prakrtim yanti bhutani nigrahah kim karishyati*

It is only the ppl ignorant of the above￾0È3 who criticise Nityananda￾0È3 Asaram Bapu etc.

Each one of us here understand the truth depending on what we are equipped with. When I put my equipments to work with these shad ripu thread I got this:

The shad ripus are:

1. kama — lust
2. krodha — anger
3. lobh — greed
4. moha — delusory emotional attachment or temptation
5. mada or ahankara — pride, hubris
6. matsarya — envy, jealousy

I understand these so called ripus as just emotions that the ego experiences.

Kama can be a creative force or a depravity depending on what we do with that emotion.

Krodha can be a correcting tool of a wrong or a destroyer of everything depending on what we do with that emotion.

Lobha can be "preserving for increased productivity" or "accumulating for idling" depending on how we handle that emotion.

Moha can be beautiful or ugly depending on the object of the moha.

Mada can be genuine or false, recognising excellence or stupid chest beating depending on how that emotion is handled.

Matsarya can be a driving force to achievement or just heartburn depending on how the emotion is handled.

If one develops the ability to stand apart from oneself and take a critical look at oneself at reasonable intervals/dynamically, all these emotions can be understood as and when they come and possess an individual. Once recognized for their true worth handling is the next step.

Kama is beautiful and creative. Without it there is no procreation and there is no society. If one,(if he is a male) can not lose himself in the beautiful curves of his opposite sex he is just a Zombie. So kama is necessary. If an oldie keeps chasing a teen with lust it is kama in the wrong place and is called depravity. Kama when expressed as an emotion in appropriate context is good. Atma can live with a lot of it subject to that condition.

Controlled anger(krodh) expressed for a purpose always does good. Losing oneself in anger is bad as it is destructive. It is said "ரௌத்ரம் பழகு". If one can not get angry for right reasons and express that anger productively towards a purpose/goal in a controlled manner, it is not worth living that life. Absence of this kind of krodh is called cowardice.

Lobha can be a sterling quality in an individual who wants to preserve what is valuable to produce more. Dhirubhai Ambani who started his life as a tally clerk in a shipping company in Aden port could, within his lifetime, build a business empire because he had this lobha in him. If he did not have this he would have retired as a tally head clerk in Aden, or as a hawker of synthetic fibres in the Mumbai business area(he used to carry this fibre on his shoulders and go door to door to whole-salers.) So lobh can be managed for productive purposes.

Moha can be beautiful. Like the malayalam poet ONV kurup's moha. His moha is 1 to go back to his school play ground,2. to climb on the Nellikkai (amla) tree in a corner there and shake it 3. to pick up the nellikkai that fall, eat one of them and drink water to wonder 'oh, how sweet', 4. to just sit idly on the bank of a small brook with flowing crystal clear water and finally the poet says even though one knows that these mohas are all just so much of wishful thinking and yet to think like this and be there in the state of moha is itself a moham which he just loves. (In malayalam it is a beautiful small film song and a kavithai but I am not giving the link here because many here may not understand the meaning and so may find it boring). So moha can be beautiful if one is choosy about the moham. If one chooses a psychotropic substance as the object of his moham he will be doomed. So effective control of the moham is beautiful and enjoyable.

Mada when it is chest thumping to intimidate others (like gorilla does) or to dominate others can be bad. But to be truly proud of one's achievements does a lot of good to the individual. It will make him humble. One who has nothing to be proud of can not really be humble because there will be always a grudge and grievance in the bottom. A proud individual can truly be humble and this is particularly necessary for Saranagati a vaishnavite's summum bonum of existence. They call this Akinchanyam and ananyagatitvam. (Not going into details here-space and time). What you do with your pride is purely in your hand if you are self aware.

Matsarya is again a driving force for excellence. One needs goal posts and milestones to progress. Otherwise this will be a world of mediocrity. So matsarya can give the much needed role models when it becomes reverence or appreciation for the achievements.

So, to sum up, I believe that all these shad ripus are necessary for an earthling to progress. The capacity to stand away from oneself and look at oneself critically is a dynamic process like the feed back circuit in an electronic circuitry. In such a circuit the signals generated by the very dynamics of a task itself is fed back, as it is performed, to control it . People who are familiar with electronics will understand easily what I say. A simple gadget in which this circuit is used is a servomotor used in process control systems.

So let us have shad ripus along with the knowledge about their existence in us and the capacity to control and direct them to a goal. Let us not throw the baby along with the bath water.Yes. All we need is shad ripus along with a feed back circuit in place. LOL.

renuka said:

There is no enemy..there is no friend either..there is no fight nor there is a peace treaty.

There is no therapist becos there is no pathology to start with.

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I sense an enemy or friend lurking in the response ...hahaha.. what do we do now ?

Dear sravnaji and renukaji,

i am waiting to read your reaction to my post #23.