Tamil Brahmins
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: sacred texts

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    sacred texts


    0 Not allowed!
    "This is perfect, that is perfect. Perfect comes from perfect.Take perfect out of perfect , remainder is perfect."............can anyone please give me exact meaning...
  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chennai
    Posts
    1,720
    Downloads
    8
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    The Isha Upanishad starts with this verse:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	poornam.JPG 
Views:	3 
Size:	16.1 KB 
ID:	3121

    Om, poornamadah, poornamidam, poornat poornamudachyate.
    Poornasya poornamadaya poornamevavashishyate.
    Om shanti, shanti, shanti

    Purnam can be translated as: Full, Infinite, Whole, Complete

    There are many translations and commentaries on this verse, each of which has a different slant. An explanation of the nature of Reality and the entire wisdom of the path of Self-Realization is believed to be expressed by this verse.

    That is perfect,
    This is perfect.
    When perfection is taken from the perfect,
    Perfect alone remains


    That is ‘whole,, this is ‘whole’;
    From the whole, the whole becomes manifest;
    Taking away the whole from the whole,
    The whole remains.

    That is infinite, this is infinite;
    From That infinite this infinite comes.
    From That infinite, this infinite removed or added;
    Infinite remains infinite.


    That is full; this is full.
    This fullness has been projected from that fullness.
    When this fullness merges in that fullness,
    all that remains is fullness.


    Completeness is that, completeness is this,
    from completeness, completeness comes forth.
    Completeness from completeness taken away,
    completeness to completeness added,
    completeness alone remains.


    It is like Zen koans, and may point to the origin of this mode of yogic contemplation. It refers to a kind of mathematics that is not our common experience, but it is not mathematically outrageous either. It is the mathematics of infinity. If one adds to or takes from infinity, it is the infinite that remains. One may add infinity to infinity or take infinity from infinity, still it is the infinite that remains. Infinity may go forth from infinity and still persist as infinity. In fact, in such a case, we will have two infinities, the original one, which remains infinite and the extracted infinity. However, both these infinities yet remain one infinite.

    This Upanishad had a considerable influence on Sri Aurobindo, whose philosophy has been named Poornadvaita Vedanta- translated as Integral Non-dualism.

    In my limited understanding, perhaps it represents a gist of the statement about the oneness of the supreme self; that "For the enlightened one all that exists is nothing but the Self"
    Last edited by Naina_Marbus; 06-10-2013 at 05:03 PM.
  3. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  4. #3
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,222
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    Could it not mean that one cannot "take away" anything from completeness? It is like a fish, in water, hoarding the very same water for its personal use in a tiny shell. And it does not realize that it has not taken anything away

    In other words, I could also say that our existence is complete - life and death are but balancing factors and ensures that the sum total of energy or life force remains constant (or neutral).
  5. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  6. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    Thank you main a sir.
    Thank you auh,

    But the same doesn't hold clear and appropriate when another vedic teacher says from zero all number comes and to zero all returns....difficult for me to interpret, help me sir
  7. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  8. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    Thank you naina sir
    Thank u auh
    It helped me to understand better...
  9. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  10. #6
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,769
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    I feel the meaning "infinity" to the word "poornam" is not correct because infinity-minus-infinity is indeterminate. As a simpleton myself, I have tried to understand this so-called great upanishadic verse as follows:

    (This is without any disrespect to anyone - in this forum or outside, please.)

    If you take away something from any substance, the remaining will be the same, original substance only and nothing else. For example if you take away some milk from a vessel full of milk, what remains in the vessel will also be milk and not coconut oil or something else.

    I have heard some old people relating the story of a tabra lady, fed up of making "kozhukkaTTais" for vinayaka chaturthi for her large family, saying this slokam in which the word "poornam" refers to the sweet stuffing for the kozhukkaTTais!

    But scriptures being kind of "holy cows" in the minds of people, a large amount of greatness, high philosophy, etc., are invariably thrust on to them invariably and thus we have many great, abstruse and exotic meanings for such simple observations.

    The principle of Occam's razor possibly will lead one towards kozhukkaTTai explanation than to anything more philosophical, I suppose.
    एकं सद्विप्रा नैव जानन्ति ।
  11. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  12. #7
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,222
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by sangom View Post

    The principle of Occam's razor possibly will lead one towards kozhukkaTTai explanation than to anything more philosophical, I suppose.
    Occam's razor is only a methodology and its applicability, or inapplicability thereof, may not prove anything substantial, imo.
  13. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  14. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    684
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    Sangom Sir,

    Though I like your disclaimer in the first line, I still disagree with your analogies and the Occam's razor hypothesis.

    We indians were the first mathematicians to not only have the idea of advanced concepts, but even the basic numerals and abstract concepts. Can you imagine negativenumbers abstractly? like -2. No. We wouldn't have had calculus and geometry without some abstract geniuses. With education/popularity, we have come to understand them easily as a debit of $2 or loss of 2 pens.

    So, same way when such abstractions can be possible, then a broader/abstract intelligence with many boundaries can lead to more accurate understanding than the Occam razor's hypothesis of littler/cheap understanding (with least chances). That is how silly, is the kOzzhukatai analogy. By thinking lower with easier examples, our neurons gets lost eventually, and we stick to cheaper theories/values/ideas/living. May be why overtime, our fellows found Sankara advaita easier to comprehend, they didn't want to think further. So Occam Razor is an excuse, when only mathematical abstractions/equations lead to rocket/satellite launches.

    I am not belittling the simpler analogies, they are easier to start with and invoke curiosity. But such examples cannot provide a broader picture. That Kozhukkatai churnam/stuffing, though we make in 50 numbers and taxing, they would eventually come to an end. Whereas, Just take this universe, it is of million possibilities, and cannot compare to that kOzhukattai making. We have had civilizations from ice age, and with so much technological abuses, we still have resources, and the earthly resources are recycles and replenished. Our own body is a toughest survivor of abuses, except extreme conditions. Just consider the amound of gold in India (summation of all possessions, black gold among political parties), imagine the vastness of the earth's resources. How about the vast space in the universe? It is mind boggling!

    Antares is a red super-giant, that is 900 times bigger than sun, contains thousands of stars with mean age 11 million years at a distance of approximately 470 light years (Ym) (calculated by mathematical equations!). Much smaller than the atoms are sub-atomic particles - quarks measured in planks (10^-35m). We couldn't see both these - be it antares or x-rays, they were found through mental-abstractions/scatter-experiments rather than direct perception or weight/length calculations. Read metrics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attometre.

    We need to understand the magnitude of measure scales, than that smaller examples while comprehending the Highest Brahman. So, when upanishads talk of Brahman, they aren't about a cup of milk (which can be emptied over few sips) or eating a seed (which would be later perceived as excreta), but there is so much that we can't perceive in-between, let alone the external objects of higher/lower magnitudes. So, we should really analyze with real sincerity, than just short-cuts with our in-adequate perception/denials.

    That verse means "Brahman, the only One being that existed in the beginning, and everything else belong to Him and cannot exist without Him". All is pervaded, be it quarks or antares, nothing is outside of Him or outside of His control/power. That was the opening verse in BrihadAranya Upanishad, and the upa. explains that , through many sequential steps/verses, how everything was created from Him and how we are completely woven in that web of creation. You and me are going nowhere, until we finally reach Him, through the right threshold of good karma and right knowledge of Him/Reality.
    Last edited by Govinda; 06-10-2013 at 11:17 PM.
  15. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  16. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    Thank you very much govind sir, main a sir.
    But that is OK for high-level thinkers
    How can we relate to our daily life this great verse.
    For ex, By this I may stay back thinking about my " self " , when someone got raped/ killed.
    How to take this extraordinary define scriptures to postmodern mindset?
  17. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
  18. #10
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,769
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Govinda View Post
    Sangom Sir,

    Though I like your disclaimer in the first line, I still disagree with your analogies and the Occam's razor hypothesis.

    We indians were the first mathematicians to not only have the idea of advanced concepts, but even the basic numerals and abstract concepts. Can you imagine negativenumbers abstractly? like -2. No. We wouldn't have had calculus and geometry without some abstract geniuses. With education/popularity, we have come to understand them easily as a debit of $2 or loss of 2 pens.

    So, same way when such abstractions can be possible, then a broader/abstract intelligence with many boundaries can lead to more accurate understanding than the Occam razor's hypothesis of littler/cheap understanding (with least chances). That is how silly, is the kOzzhukatai analogy. By thinking lower with easier examples, our neurons gets lost eventually, and we stick to cheaper theories/values/ideas/living. May be why overtime, our fellows found Sankara advaita easier to comprehend, they didn't want to think further. So Occam Razor is an excuse, when only mathematical abstractions/equations lead to rocket/satellite launches.

    I am not belittling the simpler analogies, they are easier to start with and invoke curiosity. But such examples cannot provide a broader picture. That Kozhukkatai churnam/stuffing, though we make in 50 numbers and taxing, they would eventually come to an end. Whereas, Just take this universe, it is of million possibilities, and cannot compare to that kOzhukattai making. We have had civilizations from ice age, and with so much technological abuses, we still have resources, and the earthly resources are recycles and replenished. Our own body is a toughest survivor of abuses, except extreme conditions. Just consider the amound of gold in India (summation of all possessions, black gold among political parties), imagine the vastness of the earth's resources. How about the vast space in the universe? It is mind boggling!

    Antares is a red super-giant, that is 900 times bigger than sun, contains thousands of stars with mean age 11 million years at a distance of approximately 470 light years (Ym) (calculated by mathematical equations!). Much smaller than the atoms are sub-atomic particles - quarks measured in planks (10^-35m). We couldn't see both these - be it antares or x-rays, they were found through mental-abstractions/scatter-experiments rather than direct perception or weight/length calculations. Read metrics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attometre.

    We need to understand the magnitude of measure scales, than that smaller examples while comprehending the Highest Brahman. So, when upanishads talk of Brahman, they aren't about a cup of milk (which can be emptied over few sips) or eating a seed (which would be later perceived as excreta), but there is so much that we can't perceive in-between, let alone the external objects of higher/lower magnitudes. So, we should really analyze with real sincerity, than just short-cuts with our in-adequate perception/denials.

    That verse means "Brahman, the only One being that existed in the beginning, and everything else belong to Him and cannot exist without Him". All is pervaded, be it quarks or antares, nothing is outside of Him or outside of His control/power. That was the opening verse in BrihadAranya Upanishad, and the upa. explains that , through many sequential steps/verses, how everything was created from Him and how we are completely woven in that web of creation. You and me are going nowhere, until we finally reach Him, through the right threshold of good karma and right knowledge of Him/Reality.
    Dear Shri Govinda,

    Thank you for your detailed explanation.

    I got familiar with this Isopanishad (Isavasyopanishad) santi mantra while in college when our professor, a Nambuthiri who was very learned in our scriptures - besides his subject, Atomic Physics, taught this in one class! Even then I had the doubt about the validity of "pūrṇamidaṃ" because the advaita pov says that the jiva suffers from a certain disadvantage due to its association with māyā. I asked my doubt and my professor gave an explanation that in the final analysis the jiva is nothing but the brahman itself and so the upanishad says so (pūrṇamidaṃ), etc. But that lack of conviction is still there in my mind. That was why I considered giving the explanations often said in a lighter vein.
    एकं सद्विप्रा नैव जानन्ति ।
  19. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •