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Who was Tiruvalluvar?

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14th century Valluvar Statue with Brahmin's sacred thread

‘’Sage Valluvar, priest of the lowly clan,
No tonge repeats, no speech reveals thy name;
Yet, all things changing, dieth not thy fame
For thou art bard of universal man;


And still thy ‘book’ above the waters wan’
Virtue, true wealth, and joy, and being’s aim,
In sweetest mystic couplets doth proclaim
Where winds sea-wafted palmy forests fan.


Haply undreamed of ‘visions’ glad thine eyes
In reals beyond thy fabled ‘seven fold birth’,
And clouds of darkness from thy spirit roll;


While lands far off have heard with strange surprise
Faint echoes of thy song. Though all the earth
Men hail thee brother, seer of spotless soul’’
---Written by Dr G.U. Pope


From the book The Sacred Kural by H.A.Popley, year 1931

valluva-nayanar.jpg


Tradition tells us that he was a weaver of the little town of Mayilapur—the village of the peacock—and this may perhaps record the truth. For this reason he is often called ,’the Weaver of Mayilapur’ he was said to have belonged to a low caste, the caste of Valluvars, who were then, and are still, the priests of the outcaste group, and so he has been knwn from time immemorial, as Tiruvalluvar or Sage Valluvar. Tradition makes him out to have been one of a family of seven, born of an illegitimate union between a Brahman and an outcaste woman, among the others being poets Kapilar and Avvaiyar; but there is absolutely no evidence for the truth of this tradition, nor does it appear until very late.


Valluvar lived at least 1500 years ago. Prof. Vaiyapuri Pillay gave the reasons for dating him in post Sangam period. His style of language and his usage of Tamil words help us to fix his date. He used Brahminical language like ‘Acharam of the low life’ and Hindu Sanskrit phrase ‘Dhanam and Tapas’ and many Sanskrit words. He mentioned only Hindu Gods such as Lakshmi, Indra, Vamana avatar (adi Alanthan), Thamarai Kannan (Vishnu), Brahma etc.


In his very first chapter on Prayer to God, he mentioned Pada Namaskaram in 7 out of 10 couplets. This is typical Hindu. He used lot of Puranic, epic and Pancha tantra stories in his couplets. Tamil Nadu Government’s Date for Valluvar: 31 BC

Singaravelu Mudaliyar’s Abhidana Chintamani (Tamil Encyclopaedia, page 849) gives the following details:

Father of Valluvar: Bhagavan
Mother’s name: Adhi
Patron and Friend: Elela Singhan, a business man

Another name of Valluvar’s father :Yali Dutta, a Brahmin (according to Gnanamirtham)
Valuuvar’s Wife: Vasuki who did several miracles because of her chastity
Valluvar clashed with Madurai Sangam Tamil poets who refused to accept his Tirukkural ( a book of moral ethics with 1330 couplets). At last they accepted his book.

Valluvar’s temple : Mylapore, Chenai
Death: Tamil Month Masi, Star: Uttara.
Name given by Jains: Elacharya

sacred-kural.jpg


Pictures are taken from various websites;thanks
 
Ah so this post is about Valluvar getting usurped by 'brahmins'....

I clicked on this post thinking am gonna get some interesting info on Valluvar. But well, this coming from the OP should be no surprise.....

BTW, who is Gnanamirtham?
 
Dear Palindrome
Thanks for reading and posting comments.
Valluvar with sacred thread is posted in varalaru.com by Irawatham Mahadevan (I think).

Gnanmirtham quoted by Singaravelu Mudlaiyar is a book ( I think).

If I get more details about Gnanamirtham, I will pass it on to you.

Valluvar's greatness is not decided by his caste.
I have made it very clear in my Tamil write up that no one can match Valluvar for generations to come.
No book is a match to Tirukkural in the genre of moral ethics.

My write up is to show how foreigners like GU Pope and Popley looked at him.
 
.....Valluvar's greatness is not decided by his caste...
Then why must you talk so much about caste? What is the reason for citing some idiotic claim that somebody made that Valluvar was Brahmin? This is what people who are not Brahmins see as a sign of Brahminism.....
 
Dear Nara

People are interested in personalities as well.If I read the quotations from Socrates or Shakespeare, naturally I would like to know their life history. Valluvar's life history is shrouded in mystery.There is no smoke without fire.

If he was really of low caste like GU Pope and others suspected, then it proves that caste does not matter to decide one's greatness. He had to clash with Post Sangam poets to make his book accepted. Why? Was it because of his caste?All these questions must be answered. I honestly believe he was the product of mixed marriage: Half Brahmin and Half Pariah (Like Vyasa).Like I worship Vyasar: Vyasaya Vishnu Rupaya, I worship Valluvar: Vyasaya Hindurupaya. Even if all the Hindu scriptures dis appear tomorrow, Valluvar's Kural is enough for Hindu survival. He was against meat eating, gambling, Prostitution, dis honesty and verbal diarrhea. He argued for Truth, faith in God , Tapas, and Dharma,Artha Kama,Moksha and Pancha Yagna including Tarpanam (oblation for departed souls). That is why I thought he must be half Brahmin.
 
Dear Palindrome
Thanks for reading and posting comments.
Valluvar with sacred thread is posted in varalaru.com by Irawatham Mahadevan (I think).

Gnanmirtham quoted by Singaravelu Mudlaiyar is a book ( I think).

If I get more details about Gnanamirtham, I will pass it on to you.

Valluvar's greatness is not decided by his caste.
I have made it very clear in my Tamil write up that no one can match Valluvar for generations to come.
No book is a match to Tirukkural in the genre of moral ethics.

My write up is to show how foreigners like GU Pope and Popley looked at him.
How does Irawatham Mahadevan know Valluvar was a brahmin who wore a sacred thread? Surely, Thiruvalluvar, Agastya and such folks lived long before the 14th century before they were cast in stone. How and why did painters and sculptors start portraying them with a thread?

Well, it is pretty amazing one does not know Gnanamirtham's source but quotes him. This is what shoddy research is about.

Sorry London, if the post is not about caste, why did you have to mention Valluivar's caste at all. That too without any proof whatsoever you go on to mention he was a brahmin. There are so many things about Valluvar's life, you could have written about that. Instead right at the beginning you start with Valluvar's sacred thread, a poem on lowly clan, and then write on the caste of Valluvars. Sad excuse indeed.

Btw, you have raised the following points in your post:
1) He used Brahminical language like ‘Acharam of the low life’ and Hindu Sanskrit phrase ‘Dhanam and Tapas’ and many Sanskrit words.

2) He mentioned only Hindu Gods such as Lakshmi, Indra, Vamana avatar (adi Alanthan), Thamarai Kannan (Vishnu), Brahma etc.

3) In his very first chapter on Prayer to God, he mentioned Pada Namaskaram in 7 out of 10 couplets. This is typical Hindu.

Kindly explain, how 'Acharam of the low life' translates to brahmanical language? Are Dhanam and Tapas, Sanskrit words? And i thot terms and concepts such as samsara, tapas, karma, are non-vedic in origin found amongst pali and prakrit speakers before being transcribed into sanskrit upanishads. Or no? Since you say Lakshmi, Indra, etc are only hindu gods, kindly explain in what way they are hindu? What is typical hindu?
 
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.... He argued for Truth, faith in God , Tapas, and Dharma,Artha Kama,Moksha and Pancha Yagna including Tarpanam (oblation for departed souls). That is why I thought he must be half Brahmin.
Dear LS, sorry to say this, but almost always your presentations come across as stichting trivial and inane similarities into grand but absurd conclusions. Using your methods one can argue that Thiruvalluvar was quick to angry because there is "vaL" in his name and when people get angry they shout like "vaL vaL".

For your information Mr. LS, if Thiruvalluvar belonged to any religion at all, and that is a big IF, Jainism has a much better claim than the so called Hinduism.

Of the four purushartam Thiruvalluar clearly left out vIdu aka moksham in sanskrit. I suppose you will use "your method" to show he did argue for moksham and tarpanam.

Thank you ...
 
Dear Nara,

You said "For your information Mr. LS, if Thiruvalluvar belonged to any religion at all, and that is a big IF, Jainism has a much better claim than the so called Hinduism

Can you please justify your remarks. Can you support your position with any similarity between what the Jainism says and how Valluvar in his kural has said? (Please give the kural in full) Thank you.
 
'Aadi bhagavan' is interpreted as a pointer to jainism. Our folks here will try to hold on to any straw to argue that everything in this world does not belong to hindus in general and brahmins in particular.

You said "For your information Mr. LS, if Thiruvalluvar belonged to any religion at all, and that is a big IF, Jainism has a much better claim than the so called Hinduism

Can you please justify your remarks. Can you support your position with any similarity between what the Jainism says and how Valluvar in his kural has said? (Please give the kural in full) Thank you.
 
Dear Vaagmi, before I answer you question some general observations:
  • Isn't it wonderful that a Tamil bard is claimed by almost all religions as one of their own even though he himself didn't declare any religious affiliation overtly?
  • I didn't not say he was a Jain, I find claims of Jains more persuasive than anyone else
  • I am not knee-jerk admirer of Thiukkural, it is one of the best, if not the best, neethi nool, but I don't like his treatment of women and I don't like some of the Kurals that mention "குடிப்பிறப்பு"

Dear Nara,

You said "For your information Mr. LS, if Thiruvalluvar belonged to any religion at all, and that is a big IF, Jainism has a much better claim than the so called Hinduism

Can you please justify your remarks. Can you support your position with any similarity between what the Jainism says and how Valluvar in his kural has said? (Please give the kural in full) Thank you.

Let me direct you to a fascinating discussion presented by Yashwant K. Malaiya on soc.culture.tamil from Mar 16 1995 to Feb 3 1998. This is a very long presentation, but I think very interesting and very persuasive.

Yashwant K. Malaiya's presentation on Thiruvalluvar

Thanks ..
 
Dear Nara,

Dear Vaagmi, before I answer you question some general observations:
  • 1.Isn't it wonderful that a Tamil bard is claimed by almost all religions as one of their own even though he himself didn't declare any religious affiliation overtly?
  • 2.I didn't not say he was a Jain, I find claims of Jains more persuasive than anyone else
  • 3.I am not knee-jerk admirer of Thiukkural, it is one of the best, if not the best, neethi nool, but I don't like his treatment of women and I don't like some of the Kurals that mention "குடிப்பிறப்பு"

1. It is indeed wonderful. But that does not make a discussion on whether he subscribed to the philosophy of Jainism meaningless.
2. The arguments may be persuasive to you. but not to me.
3. I agree. It is one of the best.


Let me direct you to a fascinating discussion presented by Yashwant K. Malaiya on soc.culture.tamil from Mar 16 1995 to Feb 3 1998. This is a very long presentation, but I think very interesting and very persuasive.
Yashwant K. Malaiya's presentation on Thiruvalluvar

I read it fully. There appears to be many specious arguments. I am not convinced. I would be looking for something better than this. Till then I will be sceptic. Thank you.
 
I find the following translation in the copy given by LS (H.A. Popley's book):—


TRANSLATIONS 63

103. ADVANCING ONE'S FAMILY

3. For God Himself will haste to help the man

Who says : ' I must advance my house's weal.'


This belief in "god helping man" is, I think, not there in Jainism and, on the contrary, Jains are advised by their religion to go to their temples and pay obeisance to their various deities so that the great principles for/by which those venerable persons lived their lives will induce the common man also to overcome his deficiencies and thus refine his karmas.

I, therefore, feel that even though Adibhagavan mutaRREyulaku could have been written by a person who subscribed to Jainism and gave his first obeisance to Shri AdinAtha, subsequent portions were probably written, (a) either by the same author but to suit the needs of the Tamil society of his times, or, (b) there have been interpolations.

Informed members may like to discuss this.
 
Dear all

I am following your comments. I am not replying to every one for lack of time and because the answers are in my other posts. My approach is:

I believe in Tirukkural; as long as you believe in it, there is nothing to argue.

I dont believe in caste, but that doesn't prevent me from referring to caste of others like Valluvar or Sambandhar. That does not prevent me in writing what Brahmins or others believed in ancient times.

About my ''absurd conclusions'': Time alone will judge what is absurd and what is not.

Last but not the least, I dont expect everyone to accept all the points or facts in my posts. I respect others views. They have equal rights to have their own views. If some one proves Valluvar was a Chettiyar or Nadar or a Pillay or a jain, I am equally interested in it. I am ready to learn. I am a life long student.

Thanks for reading and finding time to post comments. Keep reading. Warning: Hundreds more coming!!!
 
I find the following translation in the copy given by LS (H.A. Popley's book):—
103. ADVANCING ONE'S FAMILY

3. For God Himself will haste to help the man
Who says : ' I must advance my house's weal.'

This belief in "god helping man" is, I think, not there in Jainism
Sangom, first, Thirukkural is not a Jain text. It is free of any religious affiliation. Whether Thiruvalluvar subscribed to any specific religion is not very clear, but Jains have a better case than anyone else.

The Kural you are citing is:

குடி செய்வல் என்னும் ஒருவற்குத் தெய்வம்
மடிதற்றுத் தான் முந்தும்.


Rough translation:
If someone who is resolved to better the lot of his tribe, then,
தெய்வம் will be the first to assist him achieve his goal.

மடிதற்று = ஆடையைய் இறுகக் கட்டிக்கொண்டு

What Thiruvalluvar is saying is
முயற்சி திருவினையாக்கும் or to say the same thing with an English idiom, fortune favors the brave. Only if you take the word literally one would have to say some God will come all prepared i.e., ஆடையைய் இறுகக் கட்டிக்கொண்டு , and help him succeed.

Hope this helps ...
 
In Jainism there is no entity called God. Men and women go up and up and up untill they reach the pinnacle. So any reference to God is outside Jainism.
 
உடுக்கை இழந்தவன் கைபோல, ஆங்கே இடுக்கண் களைவதாம் நட்பு.


இக்குறளை எச்சில் கையால் காக்கா ஒட்டாதவனிடம் படித்தால் அவனுக்கு வாந்தி வர வாய்ப்பு உண்டு. அந்தணன் என்று ஒருவரை சொன்னால் மற்றவர் மாக்கள் ஆவதில்லை.
அன்னப்பறவை தண்ணீரில் தான் நீந்துகிறது. எதற்கு எது வேண்டுமோ அதற்கு அதை ஆண்டவன் படைத்துள்ளான். நமக்கு வேண்டியதை எடுத்துக்கொண்டு, யார் படைத்தால் என்ன என்று விட்டுவிடுவதே சிறப்பு. குறளை விட்டுவிட்டு, குழப்பத்தை மணக்கப்போவதேன்? ஆயிரமாயிரம் ஆண்டுகளாக குழப்பிக்கொண்டே இருக்கும் நாம் தெளிவுபெற தயங்குவதேன்? மதங்களை எதிர்பவர்கள் மதவாதிகளே?
 
In Jainism there is no entity called God. Men and women go up and up and up untill they reach the pinnacle. So any reference to God is outside Jainism.
In Jainism, there is no creator God, so also in Buddhism. They don't believe a God in a human form is sitting high up in the clouds and doing dramatics with the universe or creating human souls like a full time job. It all depends how one would define the word "God". An elevated soul like a tirthankara is venerated literally like a 'god' soul (ie, a divine soul)...in other words the 'right' act for every soul is to self-realize, such a soul is considered venerable (in a similar fashion as one would revere a god or a divine soul).
 
This is another angle to the Thirukkural:

புத்தகத்தின் பெயர் : இந்தியா தோமா வழி கிருத்துவ நாடே --எவ்வாறு.

ஆசிரியர்: முனைவர் தேவகலா.

பதிப்பித்தவர்: தெய்வநாயகம்.

இந்த நூல் கூறும் விஷயம்:

1. தோமாவின் கோட்பாடுகளின் அடிப்படையில் தான் திருக்குறள் உருப்பெற்றது.

2. வள்ளுவத்திலிருந்துதான் சைவமும் வைணவமும் தோன்றின.

3. சைவமும் வைணவமும் தோமா வழி சமயங்கள்.

இந்த ஆய்வு நூலுக்கு உலகத்தமிழ் ஆராய்ச்சி நிறுவனம் நிதி உதவி செய்துள்ளது.
 
I know Theyvanayagam. When he came to London , London Tamil Sangam arranged a meeting for him. He interprets everything according to Bible including Saiva Siddhantam. Any one can cheat ignorant people. He made lot of false statements. Since I was holding manager post at that time, I did question him. Whoever comes to London we give them an opportunity to meet the Tamil community. As a manager I have to give them warm welcome.

All of us know the Ganesh Iyer fraud case who got money to interpret Tirukkural as Christian book. World Tamil organisation and other organisations have got Christian groups to influence anything.

Christian and Muslim groups receive enormous--- mind boggling--- amount from foreign sources. This is known to Reserve Bank. The unknown amount is Himalayan amount. Christian groups own millions of acres of property in the heart of every city in India. Now they have rented out them and make more money.

Arab money is pouring through Muslim schools. Even London School of Economics gave a doctorate to Gadaffi's son after receiving a huge donation. Western countries are no exceptions. Money always does fraudulent things.

Here in London even Brahmins were converted to Christianity. They came as ''asylum seekers'' and the church gave them support for their fraudulent claims. The person who introduces get £500 and the person who changes religion gets £500 plus six months grocery provisions. When I took the issue to Saiva Munnetra Sangam (predominantly Sri Lankan) they kept quiet. Later I came to know almost all Sri Lankan Tamil families have got one Christian partner. So they dont want to speak anything against it. Now all the Brahmin families in Western countries have got one Christian or Muslim or Jew connection in their families. They say ''all religion lead to god'' and keep quiet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Saves Hinduism.
 
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