If parents use prayer instead of medicine, and the child dies, are they guilty.

prasad1 said:

A mother and father who prayed instead of seeking medical help as their daughter died were properly convicted of homicide, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled Wednesday in a decision that dramatically limits legal immunity for parents who turn to God rather than science to heal their children.
The decision marks the first time a Wisconsin court has addressed criminal culpability in a prayer treatment case where a child died. The court ruled 6-1 that the state's immunity provisions for prayer treatment parents protect them from child abuse charges but nothing else, opening the door to a host of other counts.
"No one reading the treatment-through-prayer provision should expect protection from criminal liability under any other statute," Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson wrote for the majority.
Most states, including Wisconsin, created exemptions from child abuse charges for prayer-healing parents in the 1970s to meet federal requirements.
At least 303 children have died since 1975 after medical care was withheld on religious grounds, according to Rita Swan, director of the Iowa-based advocacy group Children's Healthcare is a Legal Duty. Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nebraska and North Carolina have taken their exemptions off the books, Swan said.
The Wisconsin case revolves around an 11-year-old girl named Madeline Kara Neumann, known as Kara to family and friends. She died of undiagnosed diabetes on Easter Sunday in March 2008 at her home in Weston, a central Wisconsin village about 140 miles north of Madison.
Kara, who had been growing weak for several weeks leading up to her death, eventually became too sick to speak, eat, drink or walk. Her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, don't belong to any organized religion or church but identify themselves as Pentecostal Christians and believe visiting a doctor is akin to worshipping an idol, the Supreme Court opinion said.
As Kara's condition worsened, her parents resisted suggestions from her grandmother to take her to a doctor. Kara's grandfather suggested giving her Pedialyte, a supplement used to combat dehydration in children, but Leilani Neumann said that would take the glory away from God.


If there was a similar case in India, will it be prosecuted? If prosecuted, how will the courts rule?

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It would be ok to look up to God for cure if you have tried the normal medical route and has failed. But to look to God to do the duties of a doctor would be a criminal offence if the results are disastrous. You can not be a normal individual to expect that God will save your kid without any medical assistance when the kid is bleeding through a major artery. Diabetes insipidus is fatal if left untreated. The parents of Kara are answerable for the murder committed by them.

prasad1 said:

A mother and father who prayed instead of seeking medical help as their daughter died were properly convicted of homicide, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled Wednesday in a decision that dramatically limits legal immunity for parents who turn to God rather than science to heal their children.
The decision marks the first time a Wisconsin court has addressed criminal culpability in a prayer treatment case where a child died. The court ruled 6-1 that the state's immunity provisions for prayer treatment parents protect them from child abuse charges but nothing else, opening the door to a host of other counts.
"No one reading the treatment-through-prayer provision should expect protection from criminal liability under any other statute," Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson wrote for the majority.
Most states, including Wisconsin, created exemptions from child abuse charges for prayer-healing parents in the 1970s to meet federal requirements.
At least 303 children have died since 1975 after medical care was withheld on religious grounds, according to Rita Swan, director of the Iowa-based advocacy group Children's Healthcare is a Legal Duty. Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nebraska and North Carolina have taken their exemptions off the books, Swan said.
The Wisconsin case revolves around an 11-year-old girl named Madeline Kara Neumann, known as Kara to family and friends. She died of undiagnosed diabetes on Easter Sunday in March 2008 at her home in Weston, a central Wisconsin village about 140 miles north of Madison.
Kara, who had been growing weak for several weeks leading up to her death, eventually became too sick to speak, eat, drink or walk. Her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, don't belong to any organized religion or church but identify themselves as Pentecostal Christians and believe visiting a doctor is akin to worshipping an idol, the Supreme Court opinion said.
As Kara's condition worsened, her parents resisted suggestions from her grandmother to take her to a doctor. Kara's grandfather suggested giving her Pedialyte, a supplement used to combat dehydration in children, but Leilani Neumann said that would take the glory away from God.


If there was a similar case in India, will it be prosecuted? If prosecuted, how will the courts rule?

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My memory is that if the police get a complaint, they will forcibly take the person suffering from illness to a hospital and arrange for treatment. Registering cases against the parents does not, somehow, happen in such a case -I can't say why.

But if the patient dies and someone registers a complaint just before or immediately after death, prosecution takes place and the guilty are given jail terms.

In practice, however, such kinky christians live together like in our agraharams and away from the general run of the people and so many cases will be going unreported and unheard of.

One very able Physics professor who taught us the theory of relativity in M.Sc. classes and was a brilliant teacher, died of some illness because he belonged to one such christian denomination and refused any treatment, relying on God's help.

Dear Prasad ji,


I will relate to you one funny incident.

This happened to me when I was a freshman in college.

One day I was sick with a bad sore throat(Pharyngitis) and did not go to class cos I was running a fever too.

A Kerala Christian girl from the next room (who was a dental student) she shares the same bathroom with me so our rooms are interconnected...she came to my room when she realized that she did not see me in the morning.

Then she saw me lying down and asked me what was wrong.

I told her I was having Pharyngitis and the very next second she caught hold of my neck and screamed on top of her voice "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I hereby demand Pharyngitis to leave the body of Renuka right away"


I was shocked to the core and did not even dare utter a word cos she was gripping my neck so tightly.

Then in the evening she came to see me and she asked me how I was...I lied that I was Ok..and she said "See the power of God"

I did not dare tell her that I was still sick in cases she strangles me trying to get rid of Pharyngitis.

Imagine..this is a dental student..God knows if she is screaming to her patients in this manner too!

It would be negligence on the part of the parents if they were to deny medical aid while seeking divine intervention (for cure). There are people who would just suffer, without medical aid, to get rid of their karma, but to do so imagining that God would directly interfere in healing is a far fetched response. However, I would like to point out a couple of interesting beliefs which come to my mind now (there may be a thousand other):

1) Gunaseelam - where God is said to cure insanity
2) Chakkulathikaavu - where the devi is said to cure diseases or grant desires

I think there are other Devi, Nrsimhan, Hanuman temples where wishes get fulfilled and some of these are specific for "roga nivaranam".

Even "pei Ottum" priests could be prosecuted now since we know about MPD, Bi polar disorder, schizophrenia etc., but I think these are grey areas which would remain obscure for one reason or the other. In some cases, even the police might be hesitant to take action since they too may subscribe to the local beliefs & customs. More so in the rural areas than the metros.

So, it seems that God is outside the purview of law, sometimes?

God believers are not 100 per cent believers.In my opinion most people preteant in public.If they go by Bagavad gita they should do their duty sincerely then surrender to God and rest assured that HE will take care.In this case they should provide possible and finacially capable medical aid without any delay or hesitation and leave the result to God.Otherwise surely they are at fault and to be prosecuted for negligence.

auh said:

It would be negligence on the part of the parents if they were to deny medical aid while seeking divine intervention (for cure). There are people who would just suffer, without medical aid, to get rid of their karma, but to do so imagining that God would directly interfere in healing is a far fetched response. However, I would like to point out a couple of interesting beliefs which come to my mind now (there may be a thousand other):

1) Gunaseelam - where God is said to cure insanity
2) Chakkulathikaavu - where the devi is said to cure diseases or grant desires

I think there are other Devi, Nrsimhan, Hanuman temples where wishes get fulfilled and some of these are specific for "roga nivaranam".

Even "pei Ottum" priests could be prosecuted now since we know about MPD, Bi polar disorder, schizophrenia etc., but I think these are grey areas which would remain obscure for one reason or the other. In some cases, even the police might be hesitant to take action since they too may subscribe to the local beliefs & customs. More so in the rural areas than the metros.

So, it seems that God is outside the purview of law, sometimes?

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I understand your point, and I agree with it.
But if it is gray are then it may be enforced unequally.
Mr. Sangom,
I was not talking only of the Cristian community, here in this site there were members who claimed that only prayers will cure snakebite, and they professed that anti-venom treatment is purely western influence.

wrongan said:

God believers are not 100 per cent believers.In my opinion most people preteant in public.If they go by Bagavad gita they should do their duty sincerely then surrender to God and rest assured that HE will take care.In this case they should provide possible and finacially capable medical aid without any delay or hesitation and leave the result to God.Otherwise surely they are at fault and to be prosecuted for negligence.

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Sir,
Your post is not clear to me. Do or do you not take medicine? Will you withhold medicine for others?
No where God says that He will personally take care of anyone of us. We need to do everything humanly possible (can afford it), we must do it, then it is up to our Karmas.

A real story relating to this thread.Once a muslim youth was admitted in a hospital under the care of an efficient Doctor. for diarea Let us not have the doctor's name. Even though the doctor offered best treatment he was not cured even after a week.The relatives then took the youth to the mosque and left him there to be cured at the mercy of ALLAH.After few days the youth came out hale and healthy.The doctor want to know where he went wrong.He came to know truth.It is thus.The wife who accompanied the youth want to get rid off him.So she did not give the medicines instead threw them away.So the hospital treatment was not effective.Once he is left in the mosque his wife was not allowed to stay with him and the Kanji given to him with compassion was simply enough to cure him.

wrongan said:

A real story relating to this thread.Once a muslim youth was admitted in a hospital under the care of an efficient Doctor. for diarea Let us not have the doctor's name. Even though the doctor offered best treatment he was not cured even after a week.The relatives then took the youth to the mosque and left him there to be cured at the mercy of ALLAH.After few days the youth came out hale and healthy.The doctor want to know where he went wrong.He came to know truth.It is thus.The wife who accompanied the youth want to get rid off him.So she did not give the medicines instead threw them away.So the hospital treatment was not effective.Once he is left in the mosque his wife was not allowed to stay with him and the Kanji given to him with compassion was simply enough to cure him.

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My statement was for general public, not for criminals.

Mani, Manthra, Oushatham (மணி, மந்திர, ஔஷதம்) goes an old saying. People who have faith in prayers cannot ignore medicine. If the patient succumbs due to lack of medical help the persons who are responsible cannot escape the guilt of negligence.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

As one member says we cannot expect direct intervention of God for everything. Everything that is necessary for progress towards self realization exists in this world. This process sometimes requires physical and mental suffering but the purpose of all that is for self realization. Regarding doing only prayers instead of taking medicines for a cure is not advisable, for the reason I have mentioned above which is you cannot expect direct intervention of god. What is important is to have faith. I think that will definitely work in your favour.

Having faith in God, friends, family, professionals, and medicine is necessary.

This is a contradiction and the faithful can and will readily "solve" this problem with even more faith and even more prayer .... in the meantime let us go around punishing people for their ignorance, wasting water, duly elected politicians being politicians, etc., etc.