• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Please Enlighten me on this

Status
Not open for further replies.
P.J.

P.J.

0
Lord Vinayaka in Sri Vishnu Temples are called ' THUMBIKAI ALWAR"; why it is so ?

Who is "THUMBIKAI ALWAR" in Srivaishnava samparadayam ?

Is there any such Alwar named in Srivaishnava tradition?

Is there any Link/ Story Connected with this "THUMBIKAI ALWAR?

I came across this link which says In Vishnu Temples, Lords senathipathi (the Army Leader) is called as Visvaksenar. He control over the Vishnu's army, He has 4 subordinates. One of them has Face of Elephant. So we call him as Thumbikai Alwar.

Yahoo! Groups

Thanks for your time and answer.
 
P.J. said:
Lord Vinayaka in Sri Vishnu Temples are called ' THUMBIKAI ALWAR"; why it is so ?

Who is "THUMBIKAI ALWAR" in Srivaishnava samparadayam ?

Is there any such Alwar named in Srivaishnava tradition?

Is there any Link/ Story Connected with this "THUMBIKAI ALWAR?

I came across this link which says In Vishnu Temples, Lords senathipathi (the Army Leader) is called as Visvaksenar. He control over the Vishnu's army, He has 4 subordinates. One of them has Face of Elephant. So we call him as Thumbikai Alwar.

Yahoo! Groups

Thanks for your time and answer.
Click to expand...

For vaishnavas vishvaksena is the army commander and vinayakar son of Sivan (vaishnavite's punching bag/sworn enemy) is only a subordinate of vishvaksena.

If this does not clarify that a small group of brahmins could promote/demote deities at their will and also create dislike for some particular deity and his family members etc., and so all these are mere man-made characters in a grand farcical drama, then not even god will be able to help you.
 
Just because I am called Prasadji at work, or hey-you at home I did not change. Similarly human description of an idol, does not change the nature of Brahman.
I agree with Sangomji that deities and any other attribute of Brahman is man made.
 
In the days of old, hard-core vaishnavaites were not expected to worship anyone other than vaishnava gods. Vishnu, Rama, Krishna et al come under vaishnava group of gods. Vinayakar was considered to be a Shivite god. Even though Vinayakar was Shivite god, everyone including hard core vaishavites loved him and they wanted to make him also their own. For Vaishnavites, Alwars were like Nayanmars for Shivites. So, they had informally conferred an Alwar title to Vinayakar. Now, the question was what name should be given to the Alwar convertee. Since Vinayakar has a Thumbikkai, the answer became simple. He got the name Thumbikkar Alwar. Even the first sloka in Vishnu Sahasranamam is in reverence to Vinayakar.
 
apsarathy said:
In the days of old, hard-core vaishnavaites were not expected to worship anyone other than vaishnava gods. Vishnu, Rama, Krishna et al come under vaishnava group of gods. Vinayakar was considered to be a Shivite god. Even though Vinayakar was Shivite god, everyone including hard core vaishavites loved him and they wanted to make him also their own. For Vaishnavites, Alwars were like Nayanmars for Shivites. So, they had informally conferred an Alwar title to Vinayakar. Now, the question was what name should be given to the Alwar convertee. Since Vinayakar has a Thumbikkai, the answer became simple. He got the name Thumbikkar Alwar. Even the first sloka in Vishnu Sahasranamam is in reverence to Vinayakar.
Click to expand...

Shri Sarathy,


The first sloka in Vishnu Sahasranaamam is the one starting with "viSvam viShNur vaShaTkArO...etc.". What you are probably referring to is the first sloka with which the normal recitation is begun, i.e., "SukLAmbaradharam viShNum...etc."

Though most of the smArtas (and that includes myself) will like to make it look as a prayer to vinAyaka by some tortuous interpretation or another, the occam's razor will go to show that this verse, together with its succeeding "yasya dvirada vaktrAdyaH pAriShadyA paraSSatam || vighnam nighnanti satatam viShvaksEnam tam ASraye||" are both addressed to the deity viShvaksEna and to no one else.

You may like to read our past discussion about this here.
 
apsarathy said:
In the days of old, hard-core vaishnavaites were not expected to worship anyone other than vaishnava gods. Vishnu, Rama, Krishna et al come under vaishnava group of gods. Vinayakar was considered to be a Shivite god. Even though Vinayakar was Shivite god, everyone including hard core vaishavites loved him and they wanted to make him also their own. For Vaishnavites, Alwars were like Nayanmars for Shivites. So, they had informally conferred an Alwar title to Vinayakar. Now, the question was what name should be given to the Alwar convertee. Since Vinayakar has a Thumbikkai, the answer became simple. He got the name Thumbikkar Alwar. Even the first sloka in Vishnu Sahasranamam is in reverence to Vinayakar.
Click to expand...

apsarathy Sir

Please give me a link connecting this;

In Sri Vishnu Temples, separate Sannadhi for 'Thumbikai Alwar' ; hence my thread.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Thothadrinathar Temple[/FONT][/FONT]
Indian Columbus: Nanguneri Thothadrinathar Temple

Thiruvidanthai Sri Vishnu Temple
Poetry In Stone « Blog Archive » Alignment of Kosta devatas in a late Pallava Vishnu shrine - Thiruvidanthai


Please go through this link

poetic shaiva vaishnava duels
There are many instances of shaiva vaishnava duels among the great poets and common men of those days.

In Sri Rangam before ramanuja's time there was a ganesh temple.Ganesh was worshipped like how he is worshipped allover the world.But with visisthathvaidha of Ramanuja a problem arose,how toworship ganesh?Can we use white ash to worship ganesh?Can we worship him at all?

Problem was solved when ganesh was renamed as vishvaksena and thumbikai alwar and the namam was given to him.Even today staunch vaishnavites turn their head when they see his adobe there,some worship him as viswaksena and others dont.
Seeing this some vaishnavites were very happy."See ganesh has become vaishnavite.He has left shiva and come to vishnu"was their opinion.Hearing this poet kalamegam,a stuanch shaivite retaliated.

"But,why did ganesh come to his uncle vishnu leaving his father shiva?Its since that shivas post of ishwara is never vacant,since shiva never was born or ends.Seeing this ganesh realized that he can never become number one.He thought that he can come and occupy his uncle vishnu's post when it gets vacant since vishnu has a beginning adna n end,unlike shiva...."
 
Dear Sangom Sir,

I didn't realise that such a detailed discussion had taken place on this sloka. Whether PJ Sir stands enlightened or not, I do.

Dear PJ Sir,
The second half of your post re Shiva-Vaishnava duels was interesting. I think I will read more on this.

Regards
 
apsarathy said:
Dear Sangom Sir,

I didn't realise that such a detailed discussion had taken place on this sloka. Whether PJ Sir stands enlightened or not, I do.

Dear PJ Sir,
The second half of your post re Shiva-Vaishnava duels was interesting. I think I will read more on this.

Regards
Click to expand...

Sri.apsarathy Sir
The discussion about a particular Sloka is not answering my basic question : why in Sri Vishnu Temples, there is separate Sannadhi for Thumbikai Alwar ? There is no history for such Thumbikai Alwar anywhere as far as Google search by me.

Prasadji's explanation looks very simple, but Vaishnas would not agree to that.

I am known as Padhu among my family, as Padmanabhan among my friends circle, as P.J here in this Forum,
As Athimber to my brother in law, As Thatha to my grand Children; like wise probably Vaishnavas call Sri Vinayaka as Thumbikai Alwar just to satisfy themselves.

We all understand there is only one God with different names. no two different opinion about that.
 
Last edited:
Many Iyengars accept Narayana, which is another name for Vishnu, as the Paramatman (Supreme Being). They subscribe to a monotheistic philosophy of a Supreme Being who is the primal, substantive and supportive cause of the manifest and unmanifest universe. But it will appear strange for a Southerner to know that Vishishtadvaitam as practised in South India is an unheard term among the Vaishnav sects in the North India. They also recognise all other gods such as Brahma, Indra, Shiva and Agni in the Hindu pantheon as subservient to Narayana and amongst the jeevatmas (sentient souls, chit) whose existence is dependent upon the will of the Supreme Being.

Mr. PJji, I am not sure how "pure Vaishnav" temple is where you find thumbikai Alwar. The Iyangar Temple I have visited they do not have it.

For vaishnavas vishvaksena is the army commander. They treat him similar to Ganesh, like offering prayers to him before Narayana. Then again the Iyangars are like a Cult. Iyangars will not agree to that either.
 
prasadji

I agree with you that in North India there is no "THUMBIKAI ALWAR" in any Temples, but in many exclusive Sri Vishnu Temples in South India, one can find a separate Sannadhi for THUMBIKAI ALWAR in South India.
 
It is really unfortunate that the Hindu religion especially the Brahmin community enjoys a fragmented society. We all forget "Aakaasaad pathitam thoyam yatha gachathi saagaram, Sarva deva Namaskaara Kesavam prathi gachati." And even when reciting a line like Suklambaradharam we divide it into suklam baratharam. It is Sukla Ambara Dharam. - suklaambara dharam- one who wears White robes. There is no equivalent in Vaishnava tradition for Lord Ganesh. Because of the word Dvirata Vkraadya, Vishvaksena is considered by many as one with the face of an elephant or the Vaishnava Vinayaka. This is absolutely wrong. The lines ..dvirata vakraadya parishadya para:ssatham vignam nighnathi Vishvaksenam tam aasraye means - We seek the The Vishvaksena who has infinite number of Chaturanga sena. Para:ssatham= innumerable/infinite/large. The chaturanga sena of the ancient india had for limbs - gaja thuraga ratha and kaalaal. dviratha vaktradya = starting from Gaja sena to the foot soldier - dvirata vaktraadi parisha. Parisha means follower/soldier etc. My humble opinion and no offence meant

Mani
 
Vishvaksena is represented as a four armed deity in seated posture with
Shanku and Chakram and is considered to be the "alter ego" of Lord
Narayana,In Both Vaikhanasa and Pancharatra Agamam Sri Vishvaksena is
invoked at the start of any auspicious event and most prominently before
the commencement of Brahmotsavam. He drives away all dhushta devatas
before Perumal comes on procession. Also in Thiruvaradhanam there are
upacharams paid to Vishvaksena


It is important to note that he does not have an elephant face.
Vishvaksena can be seen here on TTD homepage :


But the vinayaka sannidhi in kanchipuram was installed recently, about
3 decades back by sri chandrashekarendra saraswati swamigal of kanchi
kamakoti peetham. The idol in that sannidhi does not have oordhva pundra
vinayaka but a vibhuthi dhara ganesha. It may not be propoer to call him
thumbikkai azhwar(vishvaksena).

Other than Trichi-madurai-sreerangam corridor you do not see Ganesh in Sri-Vaisnava temples.
Sri-vaisnava's were descendent of shiva Bhakta, and just like the hindu-converted to christianity still clings to Hindu puja vidhi in Church, these converted Vaisnava may still cary on worshipping their native deity from the past.


Just as there is no Vedic tradition of Sri Satyanarayana similarly there is no Vishvaksena either.
 
Last edited:
Sri.Prasadji

I fully agree with you, but there are Sri Vishnu Temples in South India showing Pillayar with Thirunamam

as "Thumbikai Alwar'
Poetry In Stone « Blog Archive » Alignment of Kosta devatas in a late Pallava Vishnu shrine - Thiruvidanthai

Thiruvidanthai Temple having Thumbikai Alwar

Thumbikai Alwar.jpg
 
Dear PJ Sir,

All said and discussed, the bottom line is Vinayakar is, even among iyengars, considered to be the deity who enables you to get your deeds done successfully without any let or hindrance. Hence many vaishnavite temples do have a small space for vinayaka and instead of vibuthi, apply thiruman and sricharnam on his face. Almost all vaishanvite temples in our locality (West Mambalam) have a small sannidhi for vinayakar with thiruman and sricharnam. I also have in my house, in the main drawing room, an almost one feet high vinayakar idol facing the entrance and have applied thiruman and sricharnam. Present day iyengars are not really hard core. We consider vinayakar to be above all the shivite-vaishnavite concept. Also,one need not confuse vinayakar and vishvaksenar. Vinayakar is a separate and distinct entity in so far as many iyengar families are concerned and they have no issues worshipping him. In fact, we adore vinayakar, we also perform vinayaka chathurthi, and invoke his blessings before venturing into anything big.
However, I don't agree with Shri Prasad that vaishnavas are convertees from shivites like Hindus having converted to christianity. It is a different topic altogether.
 
Manirengan said:
It is really unfortunate that the Hindu religion especially the Brahmin community enjoys a fragmented society. We all forget "Aakaasaad pathitam thoyam yatha gachathi saagaram, Sarva deva Namaskaara Kesavam prathi gachati." And even when reciting a line like Suklambaradharam we divide it into suklam baratharam. It is Sukla Ambara Dharam. - suklaambara dharam- one who wears White robes. There is no equivalent in Vaishnava tradition for Lord Ganesh. Because of the word Dvirata Vkraadya, Vishvaksena is considered by many as one with the face of an elephant or the Vaishnava Vinayaka. This is absolutely wrong. The lines ..dvirata vakraadya parishadya para:ssatham vignam nighnathi Vishvaksenam tam aasraye means - We seek the The Vishvaksena who has infinite number of Chaturanga sena. Para:ssatham= innumerable/infinite/large. The chaturanga sena of the ancient india had for limbs - gaja thuraga ratha and kaalaal. dviratha vaktradya = starting from Gaja sena to the foot soldier - dvirata vaktraadi parisha. Parisha means follower/soldier etc. My humble opinion and no offence meant

Mani
Click to expand...

Dear Shri Manirengan,

This is just to clarify that —
  • यस्य द्विरद वक्त्राद्यः पार्षद् या परश्शतं (yasya dvirada vaktrādyaḥ pārṣad yā paraśśataṃ) actually means, in sanskrit, one who has several hundreds (paraśśataṃ) of पार्षदs (pārṣadas) or subordinates or side-kicks, if you have no objection to that usage, beginning with (ādyaḥ) the dvirada vaktra (one who has two teeth - this is the word denoting Vinayaka with his elephant's face and two (or one and a half) tusks. Further, it is dvirada and not dvirata. rada in sanskrit means tooth.
  • Thus Vishvaksena has been described here as the supreme commander of the divine army, with hundreds of subordinates or pārṣadas (those who can only walk by the side and not overstep the leader, that is) starting with the two-teethed one, and the verse ends as विघ्नं निघ्नन्ति सततं विष्वक्सॆनं तं आश्रये (vighnaṃ nighnanti satataṃ viṣvaksenaṃ taṃ āśraye); (we, I - whoever chants) take refuge (āśraye) in that (taṃ) viṣvaksena (viṣvaksenaṃ taṃ āśraye) who has several hundreds of subordinates beginning with the dvirada vaktra (Vinayaka), and who always (satataṃ) exterminates completely (roots out) - nighnanti - all obstacles (vighnaṃ).


It will thus be seen that the vighneswara of the smartas could be demoted to a colonel and vishvaksena appointed laterally as the supreme commander just because one or more sanskrit-knowing and most probably brahmin, humans so decided. Now, we should think of what powers will all such gods/deities have, if their own creators were mere mortals.

As to Shri PJ's doubt about tumbikkai azhvar being present in some vaishnava temples, my view is that vaishnavism is a splinter group from the original brahmin group and there are enough evidences in support of this pov. Hence, even temples like Srirangam were there before the vaishnavites took over those temples. These tumbikkai azhvars have probably been left untouched either because of past attachment, difficulty in removing those stone idols and putting up vishvaksens idols in their place, or even because of some local rulers might have been non-vaishnavites who would worship Ranganatha but would not agree to the removal of vinayaka idol from the premises. (Since the restoration of the temple after its destruction by Malik Kafur in 1331 was done under the vijayanagara conquest of the south, it is quite possible that vinayaka could not be replaced.)

Some similar circumstances might have caused the tumbikkai azhvars in a few other temples also to have been spared their life, I think.
 
sangom said:
Dear Shri Manirengan,

It will thus be seen that the vighneswara of the smartas could be demoted to a colonel and vishvaksena appointed laterally as the supreme commander just because one or more sanskrit-knowing and most probably brahmin, humans so decided. Now, we should think of what powers will all such gods/deities have, if their own creators were mere mortals..
Click to expand...

In this moving escalator scenario, where does SKANDA stand? After Krishna identiffied himself with SKANDA as chief among the Commanders in the Bhagwath-Geetha and thus Supreme, why is a new commander in Vishvaksena made to lead the army?
 
Last edited:
When did Lord Vinayaka became ' Thumbikai Alwar'
Why this Alwar Pattam?

Even in the suburbs of Chennai Nanaganallur, there is Hayagreevar Temple where there is separate Sannadhi for 'Thumbikai Alwar'

Hayavadhana
 
apsarathy said:
Dear PJ Sir,

All said and discussed, the bottom line is Vinayakar is, even among iyengars, considered to be the deity who enables you to get your deeds done successfully without any let or hindrance. Hence many vaishnavite temples do have a small space for vinayaka and instead of vibuthi, apply thiruman and sricharnam on his face. Almost all vaishanvite temples in our locality (West Mambalam) have a small sannidhi for vinayakar with thiruman and sricharnam. I also have in my house, in the main drawing room, an almost one feet high vinayakar idol facing the entrance and have applied thiruman and sricharnam. Present day iyengars are not really hard core. We consider vinayakar to be above all the shivite-vaishnavite concept. Also,one need not confuse vinayakar and vishvaksenar. Vinayakar is a separate and distinct entity in so far as many iyengar families are concerned and they have no issues worshipping him. In fact, we adore vinayakar, we also perform vinayaka chathurthi, and invoke his blessings before venturing into anything big.
However, I don't agree with Shri Prasad that vaishnavas are convertees from shivites like Hindus having converted to christianity. It is a different topic altogether.
Click to expand...


apsarathy Sir



Anyone can worship any deity, there is no dispute about it; If Vaishavite would worship a Deity only with the Thirunamam and carry the name of ' ALWAR' means, they are cheating themselves.


Mudaliars of Tamilnadu do not call Him as "THUMBIKAI MUDALIAR".
 
P.J. said:
apsarathy Sir



Anyone can worship any deity, there is no dispute about it; If Vaishavite would worship a Deity only with the Thirunamam and carry the name of ' ALWAR' means, they are cheating themselves.


Mudaliars of Tamilnadu do not call Him as "THUMBIKAI MUDALIAR".
Click to expand...

It is funny you said that.
I Ranganatha Temple of NY The Sri Vaisnawa singers would not include a devote Iyangar from Bridgewater temple group. The reason given was that he has visited Bridgewater Temple where they worship Shiva.


A temple priest hired by NY Ganesh temple refused to perform puja to Balajee, until he can not hear other priest performing puja to other idols.
 
prasad1 said:
It is funny you said that.
I Ranganatha Temple of NY The Sri Vaisnawa singers would not include a devote Iyangar from Bridgewater temple group. The reason given was that he has visited Bridgewater Temple where they worship Shiva.


A temple priest hired by NY Ganesh temple refused to perform puja to Balajee, until he can not hear other priest performing puja to other idols.
Click to expand...

prasadji

I was told that in a Hindu Temple in NY, there is separate sannadhi for Thumbikai Alwar too!!
 
zebra16 said:
In this moving escalator scenario, where does SKANDA stand? After Krishna identiffied himself with SKANDA as chief among the Commanders in the Bhagwath-Geetha and thus Supreme, why is a new commander in Vishvaksena made to lead the army?
Click to expand...

skanda, the name itself is vitally linked to the verb skand denoting ejaculation (of Siva, etc., relating to the birth of skanda). Obviously, the BG writers were not thorough-bred vaishnavites but they helped moving the yAdava krishna to the post of the Supreme Lord of the universe, which, in turn, helped some interested scholar to compose the Bhagavatha and the Harivamsa.

Vaishnava theology, if it may be so said, postulates many more than the ten avataaras of vishnu. The Kurma Purana describes Vishvaksena as born out of a portion of Vishnu, carrying a conch (shankha), Sudarshana chakra (discus) and gada (mace) and wearing yellow clothes like his master. Thus vishvaksena is a partial avatar. And, in preference to even BG's skanda, vaishnavites promoted vishvaksena, who is recognised by their pAncharAtra Agama to the C-in-C post. That is all.
 
P.J. said:
Vishvasena is not having any Trunk


View attachment 2854
Vishvaksena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Strange, Shri P.J., Have you not yet understood that vishvaksena is not vinayaka, repeat, vishvaksena is not vinayaka; these two are like Prime Minister and his orderly, in vaishnavite vision. The orderly has a mask of an elephant's head, mouth, tusks and the trunk and so he is called by the pet name "tumbikkai Azhvar", the Azhvar appellation is sort of gratis because it is infra dig for us humans to simply worship a half elephant-half clownish entity unless it is an azhvar. (Just as it is foolish to worship a half lion-half man thing unless it is an avataara and is called either as nrusimha perumal or narasimha swamy etc.

Hope your doubt will stop here and you will have got complete enlightenment of at least the tumbikkai of the tumbikkai azhvar ;)
 
Sri.sangom Sir

I appreciate your knowledge on many things; But 'THUMBIKAI ALWAR' which are only in Tamilnadu, especially in exclusive Vaishnava Temples, has no History, or Puranic Story.

I know this Thumbikai Alwar is not Vishvakasena.



 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest ads

Follow us on Social Media

Back
Top