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Some Doubts about some Hindu/South Indian Brahmin Marriage Rituals

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1. When an engagement (betrothal) takes place before the actual marriage, as it is a sort of promise by both
sides of the parents and both Bride and Bridegroom are party to it, how on the next day,the Bridegroom pretends
to go on Kasi Yatra? Is this not amounting to breaking his own promise done through his parents?

2. Why the Bridegroom carries either a Chapeter from Sundara Kantam or A book of Bhagavat Gita not any other book like Thirukural or Divya Prabandham, Etc? In most cases he is given a chapter from Sundara Kantam only, and what is the specific chapter selected for him?

3 Why the bridegroom is required to wear only 'pancha Katcham' ( for example during Kasi Yatra) even before the marriage when he is actually only a Brahmachari; is there any scripture/Rules anywhere, regarding the occasions in which a Brahmin boy should wear only Panchakatcham? Because the bridegroom is not required to wear Pancha Katcham during Betrothol ceremony when he is also indirectly a party accepting to marry the selected Bride.

4.What is significance of Sister in Law tying 2 knots after Bridegroom ties the first knot?

Three knots symbolize three different aspects of a married woman - the first knot represents her obedience to her husband, the second to his parents and the third represents her respect for God. There may be other variations given to this.

My question is 'why Sister in Law ties the remaining two knots' why not all the knots are tied by the bridegroom himself?

I request knowledgeable members to enlighten by giving their valuable answers; thanks
 
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1. When an engagement (betrothal) takes place before the actual marriage, as it is a sort of promise by both
sides of the parents and both Bride and Bridegroom are party to it, how on the next day,the Bridegroom pretends
to go on Kasi Yatra? Is this not amounting to breaking his own promise done through his parents?

2. Why the Bridegroom carries either a Chapeter from Sundara Kantam or A book of Bhagavat Gita not any other book like Thirukural or Divya Prabandham, Etc? In most cases he is given a chapter from Sundara Kantam only, and what is the specific chapter selected for him?

3 Why the bridegroom is required to wear only 'pancha Katcham' ( for example during Kasi Yatra) even before the marriage when he is actually only a Brahmachari; is there any scripture/Rules anywhere, regarding the occasions in which a Brahmin boy should wear only Panchakatcham? Because the bridegroom is not required to wear Pancha Katcham during Betrothol ceremony when he is also indirectly a party accepting to marry the selected Bride.

4.What is significance of Sister in Law tying 2 knots after Bridegroom ties the first knot?

Three knots symbolize three different aspects of a married woman - the first knot represents her obedience to her husband, the second to his parents and the third represents her respect for God. There may be other variations given to this.

My question is 'why Sister in Law ties the remaining two knots' why not all the knots are tied by the bridegroom himself?

I request knowledgeable members to enlighten by giving their valuable answers; thanks

All these are regional customs and have nothing to do with the Vaidic marriage ceremonies. These vary from region to region among the Brahmins.

Hindu Wedding Rituals: 13 Steps of a Vedic Marriage Ceremony

You will notice that Nischayathamboolam, Kasi Yatra and Mangal Sutra are not part of these essential rituals.

Even among the Tamil Brahmins carrying of only Sundara Kandam seems to region specific. It is not done in our region.
 
sankara_Sharmah Sir

All these are regional customs and have nothing to do with the Vaidic marriage ceremonies. These vary from region to region among the Brahmins.

Hindu Wedding Rituals: 13 Steps of a Vedic Marriage Ceremony

You will notice that Nischayathamboolam, Kasi Yatra and Mangal Sutra are not part of these essential rituals.

Even among the Tamil Brahmins carrying of only Sundara Kandam seems to region specific. It is not done in our region.

My question is about the existing practice among South Indian Brahmin community only, not about Vedic Marriage Ceremony. Also not about customs followed by other regions also; it is specifically about South Indian Brahmin marriage Customs only.

Tamil Brahmin Marriage Ceremony


http://pocketcultures.com/2011/03/03/a-tamil-brahmin-wedding/

http://www.indiadivine.org/showthread.php?t=167973
 
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Dear Sri Padmanabhan,

The variations exist within Tamil Brahmin community itself. The Vadama T/Bs differ from the Brahacharanam T/Bs who in turn differ from the Smarta T/Bs. The Tirunelveli T/Bs differ from Tanjore T/Bs etc etc. The Iyengars differ from Iyers and so on. The practices have also changed with time, circumstances etc. The only common element seems to be the tying of the Mangalyam.

Regards,
Acharya
 
1. When an engagement (betrothal) takes place before the actual marriage, as it is a sort of promise by both
sides of the parents and both Bride and Bridegroom are party to it, how on the next day,the Bridegroom pretends
to go on Kasi Yatra? Is this not amounting to break his promise done through his parents?

Dear PJ sir,

In the days of the Upanishads which generally describe the times when gurukulavāsa was very prominent, the custom was that after the prescribed period of vedic study (12 to 24 years - varied) under the Guru, the latter declared that he had completed the gurukulavāsa and was fit for returning home to enter gṛhastāśrama. The brahmacārī would reach the outskirts of his village/town and then the news will spread, that a such and such a man has returned from gurukulam after completing his studies. He would then be given a ceremonial bath, new set of clothes and a kriṣṇājinam (black buck's skin to wear on his left shoulder, and across his torso, very much like the yajñopavītaṃ) as this was the insignia of his being a qualified brahmacārī. He was then known as a snātaka or one who has had his ceremonial bath. (There were three types of snātakas, according to the qualification granted by the guru; vrata snātaka - one who
complied with and underwent all the vratas during the gurukulavāsaṃ, vidyā snātaka - one who completed the study of veda successfully but was deficient in observing the vratas during the gurukulavāsaṃ, and ubhaya snātaka - one who passed both the requirements. The last category only could take up teaching of disciples as a guru. Of, course these are details not relevant here and so I am omitting.)

During the course of the return journey home or thereafter, this boy would send some brāhmaṇa friends, well-versed in mantras, to the father of the girl whom he considered suitable (for marrying). The very first mantra in our marriage is -

prasugmantā dhiyasānasya sakṣaṇivarebhiḥ varām̐ abhiṣuprasīdata |
asmākamindra ubhayaṃ jujoṣati yatsom̐yasyāndhaso bubodhati || R.V.7-7-29-1

This ṛk in short says that the groom (boy) tells his friendly brāhmaṇas to go by the shortest and easiest route to the girl's house, and request the girl's parents to agree to giving her in marriage to himself. He further states that "Indra is eager to drink the soma juice which I will be offering to Him as part of the yāgās which I will be performing along with her after our marriage." (Thus indicating his optimism about the negotiation.) It seems, it was the custom in those days for the snātaka to journey to kāśi during which he should get a proper girl, get married and start his gṛhastāśrama or else he would reach kāśi and live there unmarried.

Our present-day kāsiyāttirai during marriage is an unwanted laukīka function, therefore. But it probably continues because the groom's side get certain items from the girl's side and the whole show gives much entertainment to eager onlookers and also to the photo-, video-graphers!

If we strictly stick to a vedic ritual, this mockery of kāśiyāttirai can be done away with surely.

2. Why the Bridegroom carries either a Chapeter from Sundara Kantam or A book of Bhagavat Gita not any other book like Thirukural or Divya Prabandham, Etc? In most cases he is given a chapter from Sundara Kantam only, and what is the specific chapter selected for him?

In this part of the country (Kerala) carrying such a religious book is not mandatory, but, depending upon the whims of the elders the groom may carry some book like Narayaneeyam or even some other book held sacred.

3 Why the bridegroom is required to wear only 'pancha Katcham' ( for example during Kasi Yatra) even before the marriage when he is actually only a Brahmachari; is there any scripture/Rules anywhere, regarding the occasions in which a Brahmin boy should wear only Panchakatcham? Because the bridegroom is not required to wear Pancha Katcham during Betrothol ceremony when he is also indirectly a party accepting to marry the selected Bride.

This is a real problem, but possibly, our ancestors must have thought of avoiding dress change by the groom (from ordinary veṣṭi to pañcakaccchaṃ and by the bride from sārī/pāvāḍai & melākku to 9 yards puḍavai. Strictly speaking, the groom should wear only ordinary veṣṭi during kāśiyāttirai, imho.

4.What is significance of Sister in Law tying 2 knots after Bridegroom ties the first knot?

Three knots symbolize three different aspects of a married woman - the first knot represents her obedience to her husband, the second to his parents and the

third represents her respect for God. There may be other variations given to this.

My question is 'why Sister in Law ties the remaining two knots' why not all the knots are tied by the bridegroom himself?

I request knowledgeable members to enlighten by giving their valuable answers; thanks

tāli is not part of a vedic marriage. It is an ancient custom in the southern parts of India and can well be called a Dravidian or Tamilian custom. It probably started as a practice among the farmers/farm labourers. When a young girl was married, a piece of palm leaf was tied to a piece of string around the girl's neck; on the palm leaf bit perhaps the name of the husband was written. This was taken as notice to other males not to attack or kidnap or molest her, we don't know. (Why I say this is that years ago, the dalit women as well as some men too, of Travancore who embraced Christianity used to have such pieces of paṉaiyolai, folded like a locket and tied to their neck; a cross drawn with eḻuttāṇi will be prominently visible on this locket to outsiders.) BTW, this tāli was not there north of the vindhyas, at least till recently.

The significance of each of the knots, even the mantra "māṅgalyam tantuṉā aṉeṉa mama jīvaṉa hetuṉā" is not from veda but some verse created by someone later on. Hence if you are very particular about SIL tyng the second and third knots, possibly you can say that the SIL signifies thereby that she welcomes the bride twice as enthusiastically and affectionately as the groom.

Nowadays young people, men and women, particularly want as much of rites and rituals in every function and so they insist on kāciyāttirai, nalaṅku and so on; even north Indian girls marrying south Indian, tabra boys desire tāli. One young woman expressed the reason for these as that marriage is a once-in-a-lifetime event and so they should have maximum prominence, attention, adulation, pomp, etc., so that they can boast about the grand manner in which their marrige was conducted, even at a future date, to friends. Since the present day motto is "Celebrate your life!", "Make life a grand celebration!", "You only live once, So enjoy every moment of your life!", etc., what that girl told seems to me to be in tune with the times. :)
 
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Sear sangom Sir

"Our present-day kāsiyāttirai during marriage is an unwanted laukīka function, therefore. But it probably continues because the groom's side get certain items from the girl's side and the whole show gives much entertainment to eager onlookers and also to the photo-, video-graphers!

Ief we strictly stick to a vedic ritual, this mockery of kāśiyāttirai can be done away with surely."

This Part really makes sense

"In this part of the country (Kerala) carrying such a religious book is not mandatory, but, depending upon the whims of the elders the groom may carry some book like Narayaneeyam or even some other book held sacred."

Well said, Tamil Brahmins should also change / learn from this.

"This is a real problem, but possibly, our ancestors must have thought of avoiding dress change by the groom (from ordinary veṣṭi to pañcakaccchaṃ and by the bride from sārī/pāvāḍai & melākku to 9 yards puḍavai. Strictly speaking, the groom should wear only ordinary veṣṭi during kāśiyāttirai, imho."

Yes, possibly right; but before Magnlaya Dharanam, the bride is given a new 9 yard sari to wear changing the previous sari, in the same way it is possible to give a new 9 yard Dhoti to Groom to wear before he ties the knot.


"tāli is not part of a vedic marriage. It is an ancient custom in the southern parts of India and can well be called a Dravidian or Tamilian custom. It probably started as a practice among the farmers/farm labourers. When a young girl was married, a piece of palm leaf was tied to a piece of string around the girl's neck; on the palm leaf bit perhaps the name of the husband was written. This was taken as notice to other males not to attack or kidnap or molest her, we don't know. (Why I say this is that years ago, the dalit women as well as some men too, of Travancore who embraced Christianity used to have such pieces of paṉaiyolai, folded like a locket and tied to their neck; a cross drawn with eḻuttāṇi will be prominently visible on this locket to outsiders.) BTW, this tāli was not there north of the vindhyas, at least till recently.

The significance of each of the knots, even the mantra "māṅgalyam tantuṉā aṉeṉa mama jīvaṉa hetuṉā" is not from veda but some verse created by someone later on. Hence if you are very particular about SIL tyng the second and third knots, possibly you can say that the SIL signifies thereby that she welcomes the bride twice as enthusiastically and affectionately as the groom."


By introducing sister to tie one or two knots, additional expense for the bride's side as they have to give a new saree to her for this ritual.

On the whole i really appreciate your wisdom on this, thanks
 
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Dear Sangom Sir

"Our present-day kāsiyāttirai during marriage is an unwanted laukīka function, therefore. But it probably continues because the groom's side get certain items from the girl's side and the whole show gives much entertainment to eager onlookers and also to the photo-, video-graphers!

If we strictly stick to a vedic ritual, this mockery of kāśiyāttirai can be done away with surely."


Well said, i appreciate your frank view on this.




"In this part of the country (Kerala) carrying such a religious book is not mandatory, but, depending upon the whims of the elders the groom may carry some book like Narayaneeyam or even some other book held sacred."

Tamil Brahmins must learn from this.

"This is a real problem, but possibly, our ancestors must have thought of avoiding dress change by the groom (from ordinary veṣṭi to pañcakaccchaṃ and by the bride from sārī/pāvāḍai & melākku to 9 yards puḍavai. Strictly speaking, the groom should wear only ordinary veṣṭi during kāśiyāttirai, imho."

Possibly, you are right ;Before mangalya Dharanam, Bride is given a new 9 yard saree for changing, in the same way Groom can be given a 9 yard dhoti to be worn before he ties the knots.

"tāli is not part of a vedic marriage. It is an ancient custom in the southern parts of India and can well be called a Dravidian or Tamilian custom. It probably started as a practice among the farmers/farm labourers. When a young girl was married, a piece of palm leaf was tied to a piece of string around the girl's neck; on the palm leaf bit perhaps the name of the husband was written. This was taken as notice to other males not to attack or kidnap or molest her, we don't know. (Why I say this is that years ago, the dalit women as well as some men too, of Travancore who embraced Christianity used to have such pieces of paṉaiyolai, folded like a locket and tied to their neck; a cross drawn with eḻuttāṇi will be prominently visible on this locket to outsiders.) BTW, this tāli was not there north of the vindhyas, at least till recently.

The significance of each of the knots, even the mantra "māṅgalyam tantuṉā aṉeṉa mama jīvaṉa hetuṉā" is not from veda but some verse created by someone later on. Hence if you are very particular about SIL tyng the second and third knots, possibly you can say that the SIL signifies thereby that she welcomes the bride twice as enthusiastically and affectionately as the groom."

You are once again correct Sir: but by introducing sister of the groom , Brides' side has to give her a new saree which is an addtional expenditure for them

I really appreciate your answer, thanks for your wisdom
 
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Dear Sangom Sir

"This is a real problem, but possibly, our ancestors must have thought of avoiding dress change by the groom (from ordinary veṣṭi to pañcakaccchaṃ and by the bride from sārī/pāvāḍai & melākku to 9 yards puḍavai. Strictly speaking, the groom should wear only ordinary veṣṭi during kāśiyāttirai, imho."

Possibly, you are right ;Before mangalya Dharanam, Bride is given a new 9 yard saree for changing, in the same way Groom can be given a 9 yard dhoti to be worn before he ties the knots.

You know sir, the kooRai puDavai business is really unique and interesting, but surreptitious affair. From ladies' circle, I believe it is an essential function, because it is the naathanaar who is required to tie this kooRai to the bride. The naathanaar is supposed to observe whether there are any appaent abnormalities in the whole body of the bride and, if she does observe anything, she is expected to report it to her parents and/or elders for suitable decision. Even if the naathanaar is an immature young girl, she will accompany an elder woman who is a cousin/distant cousin of the groom who will know how to wear the kooRai.

We should thank our elders for having spared the groom from such spying!;)
 
Dear Sangom Sir
You know sir, the kooRai puDavai business is really unique and interesting, but surreptitious affair. From ladies' circle, I believe it is an essential function, because it is the naathanaar who is required to tie this kooRai to the bride. The naathanaar is supposed to observe whether there are any appaent abnormalities in the whole body of the bride and, if she does observe anything, she is expected to report it to her parents and/or elders for suitable decision. Even if the naathanaar is an immature young girl, she will accompany an elder woman who is a cousin/distant cousin of the groom who will know how to wear the kooRai.

We should thank our elders for having spared the groom from such spying!;)

oh yes yes, i totally forgot about it, Thank God we are spared from this ordeal !!

Thanks once again.
 
I think these have been discussed before. Kaasi yatra ceremony should be discontinued in almost all cases as the bride-groom is not going to do any yagna for which the f-i-l promises material support. Marriage itself has become lowkeekam for all parties including the vaadhyars. It does distribute wealth to printer of invitation (people make mountain of money), saree makers, hoteliers and hall owners, caterers, decorators and hundred others who are involved in those groups, videographer, and so on and so forth. Matrimonial sites make the first kill. If we do not do all these things, nobody (not even the couple) would be talking about a marriage before it, now, or after it.
 
Sri.Iyyarooraan Sir

Marriage ceremony is very expensive in all regions, castes, religions anywhere in the world; nowadays boys working in US, express their desire to share the entire expense equally between his side and bride's side. Like Sangom Sir said, unwanted ceremonies like Janavasam, betrothol. Kasi Yarta can be avoided to reduce the total expenses.
Even The Reception can be avoided to reduce the expenses as most people who attend Muhurtham will come again to attend Reception function and the cost of each marriage Reception meal nowadays is over Rs 350- 500 range.

Even the guests who attend these functions again and again have to engage some form of transport which is again an unnecessary expense on their part.
 
Kashi Yatra is an enactment of stage-fright. I guess the drama of a runaway bridegroom also entertains the various onlookers.
 

My younger sister used to say, "If we keep a vehicle ready for the groom to get in and go to Kashi,

he might run back to the stage like a sprinter!!" :lol:
 
hi p j sir,
there 4 kinds of marriages...simple and best is gaandharva....like dushyantan and sakunthala....very simple...mutual trust and emotional

bondage....thse are missing now a days in the wedding ceremony....nobody denied sakunthala wedding....its approved in our culture...

but who will tie the bell for cat?....every where MILKING THE COW practice....
 
Sangom Sir in post # 8:

We should thank our elders for having spared the groom from such spying!


and PJ in post #9:

oh yes yes, i totally forgot about it, Thank God we are spared from this ordeal !!


If a bride should be spied on why not do that on a groom also? If we do that many a marriage can be saved from going to rocks (by avoiding the marriage) and many a house wife can be saved from hysteria and other mental disorders(arising out of inadequacy of a partner in conjugal matters).

In Kerala there is a christian denomination by name Knanaya Christians, which has its Bishop sitting in his 'Aramana' in a place called Kozhencherry. This community has a ceremony as part of marriage ceremonies which involves the bride's brother tying a loin piece (Kovanam or koubeenam) to the groom. Only after this ceremony is over the marriage party leaves for the Church where the marriage is solemnized. These days we can introduce a requirement that the boy and girl should produce a fitness certificate from a mutually acceptable Medical Practitioner.

Kasiyatrai being mostly ceremonial, the Sundarakantam may have its significance in that it speaks that part of an epic in which what is lost is traced. Moreover there is a saying that Sundarakantam is equal to the entire Srimad Ramayanam.

Cheers.
 
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and PJ in post #9:



If a bride should be spied on why not do that on a groom also? If we do that many a marriage can be saved from going to rocks (by avoiding the marriage) and many a house wife can be saved from hysteria and other mental disorders(arising out of inadequacy of a partner in conjugal matters).

In Kerala there is a christian denomination by name Knanaya Christians, which has its Bishop sitting in his 'Aramana' in a place called Kozhencherry. This community has a ceremony as part of marriage ceremonies which involves the bride's brother tying a loin piece (Kovanam or koubeenam) to the groom. Only after this ceremony is over the marriage party leaves for the Church where the marriage is solemnized. These days we can introduce a requirement that the boy and girl should produce a fitness certificate from a mutually acceptable Medical Practitioner.


Cheers.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
suraju06 Sir

It is good idea to introduce some form medical Tests for both bride and bride groom like AIDS Test before the actual marriage; regarding conjugal matters and other compatibility, we have horoscope matching done prior to entering into an alliance.

Cheers
 

My younger sister used to say, "If we keep a vehicle ready for the groom to get in and go to Kashi,

he might run back to the stage like a sprinter!!" :lol:


Raji madam

Not run back to the stage, "run to Kasi like a sprinter"
Actually that was the only half chance given to every bride groom to run away to Kasi.
Cheers
 
Sri.Iyyarooraan Sir

Marriage ceremony is very expensive in all regions, castes, religions anywhere in the world; nowadays boys working in US, express their desire to share the entire expense equally between his side and bride's side. Like Sangom Sir said, unwanted ceremonies like Janavasam, betrothol. Kasi Yarta can be avoided to reduce the total expenses.
Even The Reception can be avoided to reduce the expenses as most people who attend Muhurtham will come again to attend Reception function and the cost of each marriage Reception meal nowadays is over Rs 350- 500 range.

Even the guests who attend these functions again and again have to engage some form of transport which is again an unnecessary expense on their part.

Good points repeated. Does anybody hear or see? Following these faithfully the community can become very richer.
 
Sometime back we were evaluating a business proposal - whether it is worthwhile to invest in construction of marriage hall - how many days of the month it will get occupied - whether the practice of booking a hall for two days for celebaration of marriage will continue - if yes for how many years. After lot of dicussions, we come to a conclusion that these things will continue for another 20-30 years. Two months' back I was in Tirupati and could see atleast 30 marriage halls between Tirupati to Thiruchanoor. Each hall was decorated with plenty of lights - a lavish display of wealth.

IN Chennai, at times people have to wait for more than 6 months to get a decent marriage hall. When they hire halls (at very high rates), they use it by having all these practices. IN any case, this create employment oppourtunities to thousands of people and
circulation of money everywhere. So let people enjoy !!1

Venkat K
 
Alcohol/liquor makers, illicit distillers, cigarette makers, drug makers or traffickers, adulterers, and host of others make a living out of their work. Wealthiness should be flaunted in charities and not in pompous living styles. I am sorry it is not my intention to jar some ears. Of course, it is one's privilege. He only can judge.
 
Yeah, now that we are immersed in TV and cell phones, the entertainment value of the Big Fat Indian Wedding has diminished. I am sure the marriage ceremonies can be curtailed without anybody minding.

Except for celebrities, such as Kareena and Vidya's weddings. Those have national entertainment value and contribute to the livelihood of so many web sites and magazines.
 
Except for celebrities, such as Vidya's weddings. Those have national entertainment value and contribute to the livelihood of so many web sites and magazines.

Not only magazines and websites..it will also increase income of Psychiatrists cos many men will be depressed!LOL
 
....it will also increase income of Psychiatrists cos many men will be depressed!LOL
Dear Renu,

Good to see you back! Are you so sure of 'joLLu parties'?? :lol:

P.S: What is in your new avtAr? (appears like a liver with an attached tube!!! :confused:
 
Dear Renu,

Good to see you back! Are you so sure of 'joLLu parties'?? :lol:

P.S: What is in your new avtAr? (appears like a liver with an attached tube!!! :confused:

Dear RR ji,

Thanks...my lap top is working now so I am back in action.

BTW my new avatar is ...let me enlarge that for you!LOL

Jalra.gif
 
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