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Did we kill God?

Like prAna prathistha, which is all about invoking biological functions in an idol, invoking our 'aham' in the idol, making it the mUrthy, in my view sapta chakras are also some logic that has fallen into philosophical domain over a period.

In my understanding, the sapta chakras are seven stages of development of a child in uterus. Caution that my understanding here is a work-in-progress.

muladhar is the fertilized egg. Kundalini is the creative energy coiled up in the egg that is unleashed stage by stage, through seven stages, till the child is born, which is the sahasrar.

Roughly, swadishthana (one's own place, attachment to uterus), manipura (necklace, establishment of umblical chord), anahata (unwounded, unwounded umblical cord), vishuddha (completely established, when all five senses including eyes get established), Ajna (command/control, when brain takes over command), sahasrar (numerous, resembling a lotus upside down, birth of a baby through the vagina).

So the kundalini, the coiled creative energy in a fertilized egg, drives itself up stage by stage, finally leading to birth of a child.

-TBT
 
renuka said:
It doesnt jive with Prana Pratistha.
That whole link you posted is Vedanta.
Click to expand...

We are talking about Brahman. From Vishnu Sahasranamam, The concept of sacrifice is Brahman, the offering for the sacrifice is Brahman, the sacrificer is Brahman, the act of sacrificing is Brahman and the words uttered by the Priests is also Brahman.
And the priests are also Brahman. In fact there are 4 priests. One of them is the silent one that oversees the ritual and just utters Om. That particular priest is called a Brahman priest. Relevant scripture....

Thine is the Herald's task and Cleanser's duly timed; Leader art thou, and Kindler for the pious man. Thou art Director, thou the ministering Priest: thou art the Brahman, Lord and Master in our home.

— Rigveda 2.1.2[2]

This verse talks about largely Silent priest who observes and invokes Atharva Veda mantras to heal and rectify other priests' mistakes in chanting and invocations. Look for hotr, adhvayuru, udgita and Brahman priests roles.

Keeping silence is essential even in rituals.

Now, Along the same lines Prana Prathista are nothing but a set of Mantras and hence is also Brahman. The names we use like Vedanta, Karma Kanda, Jnana Kanda, Upanishads are all for convenience in learning. Ultimately it is all the same thing - Brahman. That’s the way to understand to whatever extent we can about Brahman. Still Brahman is incomprehensible as whatever words, thoughts and actions through senses can’t even remotely define it.
 
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In browsing the thread here is my reaction.

People have all kinds of beliefs (Mr TBT, Mr Prasad, Madam Renuka). Some are very clear in their beliefs and cannot see the confusion in others but earnestly offers own beliefs as a solution without understanding the confusion (Mr Vaagmi comes to my mind)

There are others with references. I liked the write up by Sw Dayananda. His explanation is in a context and not an answer for all situations ( I think).

Let me say this with respect. No one has a clue as to what is going on. Some are happy thinking they have a clue. Others admit they are clueless. Post 1 is an expression of confusion within a person's belief or (wrong) understanding or both.

My take: Let people believe what they want to. If someone wants to go to a temple let them. If someone prefers to think man created god, so what, let them. In Hinduism - it is all about 'having it your way' provided you do not harm anyone.
 
a-TB said:
In browsing the thread here is my reaction.

People have all kinds of beliefs (Mr TBT, Mr Prasad, Madam Renuka). Some are very clear in their beliefs and cannot see the confusion in others but earnestly offers own beliefs as a solution without understanding the confusion (Mr Vaagmi comes to my mind)

There are others with references. I liked the write up by Sw Dayananda. His explanation is in a context and not an answer for all situations ( I think).

Let me say this with respect. No one has a clue as to what is going on. Some are happy thinking they have a clue. Others admit they are clueless. Post 1 is an expression of confusion within a person's belief or (wrong) understanding or both.

My take: Let people believe what they want to. If someone wants to go to a temple let them. If someone prefers to think man created god, so what, let them. In Hinduism - it is all about 'having it your way' provided you do not harm anyone.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with your last line..so Hinduism or what we think is Hinduism is just Frank Sinatra's " I did it my way"

[video=youtube_share;onWf4_yl-pY]https://youtu.be/onWf4_yl-pY[/video]
 
renuka said:
I have to agree with your last line..so Hinduism or what we think is Hinduism is just Frank Sinatra's " I did it my way"

[video=youtube_share;onWf4_yl-pY]https://youtu.be/onWf4_yl-pY[/video]
Click to expand...

Issue of today is there are too many conflicting ideas within Hinduism. In addition we have confused people about most of these ideas. What we need is a teacher who has clarity. I Googled Swami Dayananda (mentioned in this thread) and he has clear presentations from my point of view. He has many different messages and often not what I was looking for.

The forum has to attract knowledgeable members to contribute. We only have confused souls here (I include myself in this)
 
a-TB said:
Issue of today is there are too many conflicting ideas within Hinduism. In addition we have confused people about most of these ideas. What we need is a teacher who has clarity. I Googled Swami Dayananda (mentioned in this thread) and he has clear presentations from my point of view. He has many different messages and often not what I was looking for.

The forum has to attract knowledgeable members to contribute. We only have confused souls here (I include myself in this)
Click to expand...

Well...I think the problem started when we Hindus allowed Matam Sankar..that is we allowed intermingling of various schools of thoughts and the Sarva Dharma concept of having deities from A to Z developed.

May be in the past a Shaiva was only a Shaiva and a Vaishnava was only a Vaishnava but if both mix then one has one too many to worship.

After a while the mind would naturally seek to choose just one path and land up monotheistic finally...where one can say "There is none but God".
 
I suppose you get what you pay for. Sometimes we hear what we want to hear. I hear tapes of Swami Chinmayananda, The message that I heard 30 years ago, I do not hear it in that tape. The messenger and the message did not change, but I changed. I suppose I was impressionable back them, or I have become more cynical now.

If my means allow me to go to community college, but I expect Harward Ph.D. program discussion, maybe I am in the wrong league.

I have been an Ashramite before, and I still attend sometimes, but ultimately it is one's own quest that may clear the understanding (I hope). Or accept to live with whatever you have.

Let me relate a story:

I had a pain in my elbow, and could not exercise. I went to my doctor, he did tests and prescribed some pills and asked me to come back after 15 days. I asked him if I will be cured by then. He smiled and said "cured" no, by then the inflammation would have healed and I would have adjusted to the condition.

He said it is arthritis and there is no cure for that.
 
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Kabir Das says:


37 kasturi kundali basai, mrig dhundhe ban mahi;
aise ghati ghati ram hi, duniya dekhai nahi.

Meaning

Musk is in the navel of the musk deer, but the deer searches for its fragrance everywhere in the forest.In the same way,

God dwells in every heart, but people search for Him elsewhere, and do not find Him
.
Commentary

Though the bliss of God's love is in the human heart, because of ignorance, people do not know it, and they search for bliss in worldly things. Instead of bliss, they get disappointment.


https://www.speakingtree.in/blog/kabir-vani-explained
 
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This is a story I read. Just enriching it with my imagination.

Once a guru bought a piece of farmland and built his hermitage there. Soon he also got some sishyas. Every time he performed the daily puja, rats used to play havoc. They would pull away the light or eat up the prasad etc.

Guru tried all tricks he could. But rats could not be stopped. They invaded the hermitage from the surrounding farmland.

Finally he bought a cat. He kept it with him during the puja. This controlled the rats as they stopped coming in during puja. That became a regular custom in that place.

After some time cat died. So guru brought a new cat and kept it. Soon guru died. One of his sishyas became the guru.

Following the guru's tradition, he also kept the cat with him during the puja. This continued as a tradition in that guru-parampara.

Soon the surround farmlands gave way to new buildings. Rats totally vanished. The once-farmland became center of a new town. As lot more people visited the hermitage, the gurus there started buying surrounding lands and expanded their 'mutt'. Their mutt became the center of the town.

Gurus were often asked about keeping a cat during puja. Since they did not know why it came and they did not want to look ignorant before audience, they invented different stories. One story said the original guru who started the hermitage was reborn as a cat and that's why they kept a cat.

Soon it became difficult for the gurus to get a cat and place it there during Puja. So one guru innovated that he can keep a golden cat (Hiranyam is gold :) ). He conducted a money drive, got a golden cat placed next to his place during puja.

Soon the questioning level of people also increased. They started doubting the rebirth story as it made the guru to be reborn as a cat. Many of the mutt folowers thought that diminishes the mutt's prestige. So another intelligent guru came up with another story. He said it was Easwara in the form of cat who lead guru to the place to build a mutt there. Hence cat is kept during puja.

Then another guru further innovated with more decorations to the cat and also started offering puja and prasad to the cat.

When someone asks the mutt followers about the truth behind the cat, they have lot of answers. All of them agree cat is important for their tradition.

Some have a philosophical version of 'truth'. Some have a 'mystical' version of truth. Some have a 'divine' version of truth. Some people think others are confused about 'truth'. Some people think they are confused about truth.

-TBT




-TBT
 
thebigthinkg said:
This is a story I read. Just enriching it with my imagination.

Once a guru bought a piece of farmland and built his hermitage there. Soon he also got some sishyas. Every time he performed the daily puja, rats used to play havoc. They would pull away the light or eat up the prasad etc.

Guru tried all tricks he could. But rats could not be stopped. They invaded the hermitage from the surrounding farmland.

Finally he bought a cat. He kept it with him during the puja. This controlled the rats as they stopped coming in during puja. That became a regular custom in that place.

After some time cat died. So guru brought a new cat and kept it. Soon guru died. One of his sishyas became the guru.

Following the guru's tradition, he also kept the cat with him during the puja. This continued as a tradition in that guru-parampara.

Soon the surround farmlands gave way to new buildings. Rats totally vanished. The once-farmland became center of a new town. As lot more people visited the hermitage, the gurus there started buying surrounding lands and expanded their 'mutt'. Their mutt became the center of the town.

Gurus were often asked about keeping a cat during puja. Since they did not know why it came and they did not want to look ignorant before audience, they invented different stories. One story said the original guru who started the hermitage was reborn as a cat and that's why they kept a cat.

Soon it became difficult for the gurus to get a cat and place it there during Puja. So one guru innovated that he can keep a golden cat (Hiranyam is gold :) ). He conducted a money drive, got a golden cat placed next to his place during puja.

Soon the questioning level of people also increased. They started doubting the rebirth story as it made the guru to be reborn as a cat. Many of the mutt folowers thought that diminishes the mutt's prestige. So another intelligent guru came up with another story. He said it was Easwara in the form of cat who lead guru to the place to build a mutt there. Hence cat is kept during puja.

Then another guru further innovated with more decorations to the cat and also started offering puja and prasad to the cat.

When someone asks the mutt followers about the truth behind the cat, they have lot of answers. All of them agree cat is important for their tradition.

Some have a philosophical version of 'truth'. Some have a 'mystical' version of truth. Some have a 'divine' version of truth. Some people think others are confused about 'truth'. Some people think they are confused about truth.

-TBT




-TBT
Click to expand...

Haqeeqat?
 
renuka said:
Well...I think the problem started when we Hindus allowed Matam Sankar..that is we allowed intermingling of various schools of thoughts and the Sarva Dharma concept of having deities from A to Z developed.

May be in the past a Shaiva was only a Shaiva and a Vaishnava was only a Vaishnava but if both mix then one has one too many to worship.

After a while the mind would naturally seek to choose just one path and land up monotheistic finally...where one can say "There is none but God".
Click to expand...

In the DNA of Hindus there is respect for all kinds of religious expressions. If one wants a wall as a Shiva follower no one cares. Others are willing to go to their Shiva temple. People worship rivers, trees, animals .

So I take that they see God in all forms - that is the message of Malhotra's message. So someone can imagine God as remover of obstacles or a deity practicing celibacy. Same person who worships that god form will also worship God with lots of wives. It it works for them let it.

The confusion is trying to reconcile all this. We should leave all forms of Hindu religion alone so long they dont hurt anyone.

The confusion I think is having wrong ideas of all these terms thrown around - Brahman, atma, etc
If everything is brhman , then all these deities are also Brhman.
 
If someones is digging a ditch in the USA, thinking that he is going to reach China, let them.
If someone is trying to reach the south pole and is going North, let them.

Sometimes a bystander has to intervene. Does that bystander know it all? No No No.
But he can at least stop the calamity.

In the Gospel of Luke, the parable is introduced by a question, known as the Great Commandment:
Behold, a lawyer came to Jesus and asked of him, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it? Who am I?”
He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind, ; and your neighbour as yourself."
He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbour?"
— Luke 10:25–29, World English Bible
​
Jesus replies with a story:
Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"
He said, "He who showed mercy on him."
Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
— Luke 10:30–37, World English Bible​
Click to expand...


As a good Samiritan, it is our duty to intervene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Good_Samaritan
​
 
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prasad1 said:
If someones is digging a ditch in the USA, thinking that he is going to reach China, let them.
If someone is trying to reach the south pole and is going North, let them.

Sometimes a bystander has to intervene. Does that bystander know it all? No No No.
But he can at least stop the calamity.



As a good Samiritan, it is our duty to intervene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Good_Samaritan
[/INDENT]
Click to expand...

One needs logical reasoning to intervene. Throwing another belief to a person's belief is useless.

Digging a hole to reach China cannot happen, but if you say it can reach India that is no use.

Similarly saying I believe in Brahman but dont know what it is, is no different than someone saying I believe in Vishnu in a place called Vaikunta.

Neither person has reason to intervene each other with their beliefs.

Saying my Guru says so is another weak reason.

When there is not a good response, best position is to leave people to their beliefs since they are not causing any harm to anyone. If they do cause harm, pointing out the harm is a reasonable intervention
 
a-TB said:
In the DNA of Hindus there is respect for all kinds of religious expressions. If one wants a wall as a Shiva follower no one cares. Others are willing to go to their Shiva temple. People worship rivers, trees, animals .

So I take that they see God in all forms - that is the message of Malhotra's message. So someone can imagine God as remover of obstacles or a deity practicing celibacy. Same person who worships that god form will also worship God with lots of wives. It it works for them let it.

The confusion is trying to reconcile all this. We should leave all forms of Hindu religion alone so long they dont hurt anyone.

The confusion I think is having wrong ideas of all these terms thrown around - Brahman, atma, etc
If everything is brhman , then all these deities are also Brhman.
Click to expand...

As I said..too many concepts is confusing.
It just seems to me every custom and local belief was just absorbed into one unit and collectively called Hinduism ..this finally gave way to all sorts of practices that finally just gave us a fruit salad that tastes good but we never get to focus on one fruit.

Ask any Guruji..right away they say rituals are important..mind cant focus without a ritual or idol or pooja..its like as if we are stuck forever

But other religions do manage well without these concept of dieties and poojas and devas and devis..take Sikhism for example..they do not worship any idol ..their prayers are mostly based on reading their holy books and emphasis on seva activities and they seem to do fine.

After all once upon a time Sikhs were Hindus..so if they can manage why we Hindus can never manage ever ?
 
Sanatana is a dharma. Sana- Atan means spread from ancient/old times. Dharma are 'laws'.

Laws are not pure 'beliefs' and 'faiths'. They exist to guide the evolution. They come out of some rationality. Some are Universe's laws, laws that Universe adheres, that guides its evolution. Some laws are man-made (social laws) to guide their evolution. Even animals and birds follow their own laws to guide their sustenance.

Sanatana dharma were laws that we have been adhering to from the ancient time, which has been evolving further to suit our evolutionary needs.

We do not understand the rationality behind all the dharma/laws. But yet we follow them because it is the dharma. This is the 'belief' part. When it contradicts too much to our existence, we fight with those implementing the dharma and the dharma changes/evolves as a result of these fights.

What we had was a dharma, set of laws that we defined for ourselves, which always arose from a rational need for sustenance and evolution. (Eg. Varna, Asrama). Ours was a dharma/set of laws which kept evolving in different directions with some parts followed by belief/faith, some followed with understanding. Over a period when the understanding of original logic diminishes (as in the cat story), beliefs and faith sustain it for sometime. But repeated questioning of the beliefs, continuously out-date old belief and get in new laws which turn into beliefs over a period.

But the core of it all is rationality and logic for sustenance and evolution.

Different people interpret these laws differently and hence they end up with different belief/faiths, which also keep evolving.

What christianity, islam, buddhism, jainism were 'mata', systems that arise from a core belief/faith. They have only faith, faith which cannot be shaken.

Looking for a 'mata' in dharma or aspiring to restrict the dharma to a mata is like asking for the moon to become 'dosai/idly' because they are of same shape.

-TBT
 
renuka said:
As I said..too many concepts is confusing.
It just seems to me every custom and local belief was just absorbed into one unit and collectively called Hinduism ..this finally gave way to all sorts of practices that finally just gave us a fruit salad that tastes good but we never get to focus on one fruit.

Ask any Guruji..right away they say rituals are important..mind cant focus without a ritual or idol or pooja..its like as if we are stuck forever

But other religions do manage well without these concept of dieties and poojas and devas and devis..take Sikhism for example..they do not worship any idol ..their prayers are mostly based on reading their holy books and emphasis on seva activities and they seem to do fine.

After all once upon a time Sikhs were Hindus..so if they can manage why we Hindus can never manage ever ?
Click to expand...

Is there any need to bring all the concepts into one? There is a common thread for all practices in Hinduism - we dont convert, and we accept other beliefs as valid . That is its beauty and power. Billion people need not be bound under one rule and be stuck. Let people relate to an almighty however way it works for them.

There is a beauty in acceptance of others without forcing them into one way.
What is the issue with deities and puja. There is no need for one to do puja to be called a Hindu.

Sikhs are Hindus and yet they can be different. There are no issues. Sikhs gave their life to protect Hinduism from Islam (from what i have heard),

We are not stuck at all. It is other way around. Minimal rules, and maximum freedom to practice the way one wants. All that is needed is open heart to accept all the practices within Hindu faith. So why be critical of deities and puja. Let us not worry, let us be happy.
 
a-TB said:
.........
What is the issue with deities and puja. There is no need for one to do puja to be called a Hindu.
...........
We are not stuck at all. It is other way around. Minimal rules, and maximum freedom to practice the way one wants. All that is needed is open heart to accept all the practices within Hindu faith. So why be critical of deities and puja. Let us not worry, let us be happy.
Click to expand...
:thumb: Very well written!
 
a-TB said:
We are not stuck at all. It is other way around. Minimal rules, and maximum freedom to practice the way one wants. All that is needed is open heart to accept all the practices within Hindu faith. So why be critical of deities and puja. Let us not worry, let us be happy.
Click to expand...


If this was true for all, there would not be all these conflicts. We can ignore a raging tsunami in the other side of the world, but you have to make decisions if it is outside your house.

If people are killed in the name of religion if people are told what they can eat in the name of religion, and a group of people are excluded from worshipping in their own religion, there has to be a protest.

That is where "the good Samaritan" story comes to play. Do the RIGHT THING, worry about religion later.

The problem is you think you are playing chess, but I am playing American football (in my gear) with you.
If we do not challenge Status quo we still would be practicing the things that have been outlawed.

Sometimes you have to shake a tree to get all the fruits.
 
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prasad1 said:
If this was true for all, there would not be all these conflicts. We can ignore a raging tsunami in the other side of the world, but you have to make decisions if it is outside your house.

If people are killed in the name of religion if people are told what they can eat in the name of religion, and a group of people are excluded from worshipping in their own religion, there has to be a protest.

That is where "the good Samaritan" story comes to play. Do the RIGHT THING, worry about religion later.

The problem is you think you are playing chess, but I am playing American football (in my gear) with you.
If we do not challenge Status quo we still would be practicing the things that have been outlawed.

Sometimes you have to shake a tree to get all the fruits.
Click to expand...

Unable to follow the disjointed statements. I read it twice.

Whatever I am able to understand, here is my take.

Conflicts are created by people, often without understanding the teachings. Jesus may have said 'show the other cheek' but I am yet to find a christian who acts that. That does not mean there is a flaw in the teaching, it shows flaw on the person practicing the religion.

Hindus are taught ahimsa as a basis but murderers claim to be Hindus. It does not mean ahimsa teaching is wrong, it means it is not followed.

So tsunami you say are caused by people and their bad behavior. Sometimes they may say it is their religion. They can be wrong. '

Protest or law enforcement is the answer if law is broken. Period. No religion can trump laws. So I do not follow the point made.

Hinduism is special because it teaches about Dharma which is about the right thing. So I am not sure what worry about religion later means.

What status quo are you talking about??

Outlawed should not be practiced. If they are the culprits have to be punished. But no need to bring this into a discussion about religion.

I have no idea what tree has to be shaken. Someone who does not understand basics is not the right person to shake anything.

You say you have been to Chinmaya mission classes, ran temples and now you said somewhere you are cynical about many things. That is your own views, we cannot say the problem are those classes or the temple organizations.

It seems you differed with what I wrote, and if you expressed what you want to convey with thoughts that are connected well I can respond
 
a-TB said:
Is there any need to bring all the concepts into one? There is a common thread for all practices in Hinduism - we dont convert, and we accept other beliefs as valid . That is its beauty and power. Billion people need not be bound under one rule and be stuck. Let people relate to an almighty however way it works for them.

There is a beauty in acceptance of others without forcing them into one way.
What is the issue with deities and puja. There is no need for one to do puja to be called a Hindu.

Sikhs are Hindus and yet they can be different. There are no issues. Sikhs gave their life to protect Hinduism from Islam (from what i have heard),

We are not stuck at all. It is other way around. Minimal rules, and maximum freedom to practice the way one wants. All that is needed is open heart to accept all the practices within Hindu faith. So why be critical of deities and puja. Let us not worry, let us be happy.
Click to expand...

Well said. :clap2:
 

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