Are we heading towards a Christian India?

Are we heading towards a Christian India? (Part I)

I am a westerner and a born Christian. I was mainly brought up in catholic
schools, my uncle, Father Guy Gautier, a gem of a man, was the parish head
of the beautiful Saint Jean de Montmartre church in Paris ; my father,
Jacques Gautier, a famous artist in France, and a truly good person if there
ever was one, was a fervent catholic all his life, went to church nearly
every day and lived by his Christian values. There are certain concepts in
Christianity I am proud of :
charity for others, the equality of system in many western countries,
Christ's message of love and compassion….

Yet, I am a little uneasy when I see how much Christianity is taking over
India under the reign of Sonia Gandhi : according to a 2001 census, there
are about 2.34 million Christians in India ; not even 2,5% of the nation, a
negligible amount. Yet there are today five Christian chief ministers in
Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kerala and Andhra Pradesh.
One should add that the majority of politicians in Sonia Gandhi's closed
circle are either Christians or Muslims. She seems to have no confidence in
Hindus.Ambika Soni, a Christian, is General Secretary of the Congress and a
very powerful person, with close access to Sonia Gandhi. Oscar Fernandes is
Union Programme Implementation Minister.
Margaret Alwa is the eminence grise of Maharasthra. Karnataka is virtually
controlled by AK Anthony, whose secretaries are all from the Southern
Christian association. Valson Thampu, a Hindu hater, is Chairman NCERT
curriculum Review Committee, John Dayal, another known Hindu baiter, has
been named by Sonia Gandhi in the National Integration Council ; and Kancha
Ilaya, who hates Hindus, is being allowed by the Indian Government to lobby
with the UN and US Congress so that caste discrimination in India is
taken-up by these bodies.

I have nothing personnally against Sonia Gandhi, in fact she probably is a
good person to win the alliegance of so many and certainly a loving mother .
I share with her a love for India, like her I have lived in this country for
over 30 years and like her I have married an Indian. But nevertheless, since
she is at the top, Christian conversions in India seem to have gone in
overdrive. More than 4,000 foreign Christian missionaries are involved in
conversion activities across different states. In Tripura, there were no
Christians at independence, there are 120.000 today, a 90% increase since
1991. The figures are even more striking in Arunachal Pradesh, where there
were only 1710 Christians in 1961, but 1,2 million today, as well as 780
churches! In Andhra Pradesh, churches are coming-up every day in far flung
villages and there was even an attempt to set-up one near Tirupati. Many of
the North-East separatist movements, such as the Mizo or the Bodos, are not
only Christian dominated, but also sometimes function with the covert
backing of the missionaries. In Kerala, particularly in the poor coastal
districts, you find "miracle boxes" put in local churches: the gullible
villager writes out a paper mentionning his wish: a fising boat, a loan for
a pukka house, fees for the son's schooling… And lo, a few weeks later, the
miracle happens ! And of course the whole family converts, making others in
the village follow suit. During the Tsunami, entire dalit villages in Tamil
Nadu were converted to Christianity with the lure of money.

It is true that there have been a few backlashes against missionnaries and
nuns, particularly the gruesome muder of Staines and his two sons.
But Belgium historian Konenraad Elst laments that « When over a thousand
Hindus are killed and a quarter million Hindus ethnically cleansed in
Kashmir, the world media doesn't even notice, but watch the worldwide hue
and cry when a few local riots take place and a few missionaries are killed
by unidentified tribal miscreants. Christian Naga terrorists have been
killing non-Christians for decades on end, and this has never been an issue
with the world media, except to bewail the "oppression" of the Nagas by
"Hindu India" ». More than 20,000 people have lost their lives to insurgency
in Assam and Manipur in the past two decades. As recently as last week, four
paramilitary Assam Rifles soldiers were killed in an ambush yesterday by the
outlawed United National Liberation Front (UNLF).

The other day I was at the Madras Medical center, the foremost heart
hospital in Madras. Right when you enter the lobby, you find a chapel,
inviting everybody to pray, there are pictures and quotations of Christ
everywhere and a priest visits all the patients, without being invited at
all. Educational institutes and orphanages run by Christian organisations
have become big business in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh and other states. In
Pondichery, where I am often, schools run by Adventists force their pupils,
mostly Hindus, to say Christian prayers every day and attend mass. They are
constantly fed anti Hindu slogans and biases under different forms, whether
it is in history books, or discourses by priests during religious classes.
Even in the elite schools or colleges, such as Saint Stephen in Delhi, Saint
Xavier in Calcutta or Loyola college in Madras, where no direct
proletization is attempted, Hindu pupils are subtly encouraged towards
skepticism of their own religion, and admiration of whatever is Western. One
should also say that it's a one way traffic : remember the furor when MM
Joshi wanted the Saraswati hymn to be sung at a Chief Ministers' meet on
education ? And imagine the uproar in secular India if portions of the
Bhagavad Gita, this Bible for all humanity, were read at the beginning of
the day in public schools ? (Continued....)

Are we heading towards a Christian India? part II

Sonia Gandhi said during the last National Integration Council meeting
: « We are committed to ideological battle against communal forces which
seek to destroy our diversity and polarise us. Certain parties promote
polarisation and confrontation. And there are certain regimes in India which
promote communalism ». But is not actually the Congress under Mrs Gandhi,
which is promoting communalism, by insidiously installing Christians and
Muslims (and Marxists) everywhere, propping up Christian states, allowing a
free hand too missionnaries and pressing for reservations for Christian
Dalits and Muslims, as recently done in AP, in a nation of 850 million
Hindus ?
In my country, France, a Christian majority nation , it would be unthinkable
to have Hindus – or even Indian born French for that matter – in so many
positions of power. Impossible also to find a non-elected, non French,
non-Christian person being the absolute ruler of the country behind the
scene as Sonia Gandhi is in India. Indians like to say that the greatness of
India is that it accepts a foreigner and a Christian like Sonia Gandhi. But
is'nt it rather a weakness, and an aberration ? Can't we find a worthy
leader amongst one billion Indians ? This is an India where you see today
Swami Avimukteshwarananda Saraswati of Dwarka Peeth, made to disembark from
an Indian Airlines flight for carrying his holy dand, a thin bamboo stick
which is a symbol of their spiritual designation, inside the aircraft cabin.

Are we heading then towards a Christian India under Sonia Gandhi's helm? It
would be a tremendous loss not only to India, but also to the world. For in
India, you find the only living spirituality left on this planet.

François Gautier

What do you expect?

Well, on this very web-site we have morons exhorting us to convert to Christianity with "if we can't beat them, let us join them .."
and the sage, liberal, open-minded administrators roll-over and take-it all lying down in the interest of free-speech. What do you expect?

Whoa! maami! hold on there!

If I were as liberal as you allege, I wouldn't take the trouble of publishing that article, would I? We certainly don't 'roll over and take it all lying down' as you passionately accuse us of!! As moderators and administrators we have to be neutral and let the members say their piece. Just because some idiot (yes! even idiots have their day in the sun here!) write about something that you don't like (or even I don't like personally), that doesn't mean we have to ban it!
Yes, we are for free-speech; you seem to forget that the very same free-speech will allow you to hit back with your rebuttal!

Strictly speaking on my behalf, I am alarmed at what François has written and I fear what is ahead for all of us.

Frankly, maami, I am a little bit disappointed -- coming from you!!

born_again_aiyer_maami said:

Well, on this very web-site we have morons exhorting us to convert to Christianity with "if we can't beat them, let us join them .."
and the sage, liberal, open-minded administrators roll-over and take-it all lying down in the interest of free-speech. What do you expect?

Click to expand...

Dear SilverFox,

I did not seek to upset you with my post. But here is what I feel:
(a) This site is "tamilbrahmins.com" . We are here because we are dwindling in numbers, we are scattered, and our identity is under siege. I presume we are here because we take pride in our identity (religious,social,& cultural) and hope to preserve what is left of it. Now, along comes some smart-alec and suggests that we obliterate our identity altogether through conversion!!
Does this not defeat the very raison d' etre of this web-site? Why do you give voice to those who wish to bring about the destruction of what you seek to preserve?
(b) I think the Tamil Brahmin community is being put upon precisely because we espouse free-speech, liberalism, and progressive-politics. If I did not believe in these values, then I would be at one of those right-wing, realpolitik sites - although lately I am beginning to wonder whether I should move elsewhere. Why waste time at a site that espouses the destruction of my identity, as even-handedly as the preservation of it? If we don't stick-up for what is ours, here, then where? Who speaks for us?
Would the Jews/Americans/French take very kindly if they were asked to relinquish their Jewishness/American values/French traditions ? The ADL would be all over the place !!
(c) I believe in collective responsibility (that is our tradition), and so I certainly don't intend to hang everything on the administrators (and certainly not you) - but I think there are bounds even to free-speech. When free-speech borders on the inflammatory, and questions our very existence - then we should have the freedom to protest, editorialize, and SQUELCH!
I am sorry too, SilverFox - but I grow very disillusioned ...

I agree with mami

Mami is once again right on target.
I admire the organizers and administrators of this forum for the great service they are rendering to our community. But as a friend I would like to point out that in the name of "free speech" this forums is being abused by vested interests to run their false propaganda much the same way the Tamil cinema and magazines and other media are being abused by non-Brahmins in TN.
Since the forum cannot verify if a person is a brahmin or not , many unscrupulous elements get in here under pseudonyms and run their propaganda. These people are either paid for it or having so much of free time (because anyway they don’t have work since reservation affords them a work-free life ), they keep pushing their agenda here. Giving them equal space on par with honest hard-working Brahmins , becomes after a point, perverse if not anything else such as masochist.These elements employ every trick in the book to deceive Brahmins. So other members in the forum need to be extra vigilant. People may think it is paranoid but it really is not. Because in real life and history, Brahmins have been exploited only because of their broad mindedness and that is the reason why we find ourselves worse than a refugee in our own country. So the administrators do have a role in ensuring that such things don’t happen in this forum as well.

All said, I appreciate and thank the organizers / administrators for their great service in bringing us all together. That in itself is an invaluable service to our community and I request the members of this forum to not give in to despair or disillusioned and make best use of this forum and stay together and at the same time be watchful for the miscreants in the forum.

Tongue-in-cheek perhaps?

Dear baimaami:
Please, I wasn't upset nor will I ever be; after all, all this is in the family, so to speak! If I gave you that idea, that only goes to show my inadequacy in expressing my thoughts in writing.

I don't exactly remember the details of that posting about us joining the christians - as a matter of fact, I took it as this member was suggesting sort of with a tongue-in-cheek! It is so preposterous that I didn't think whoever wrote it would mean in a serious way.

I don't try to speak for Praveen, Ramki or Chintana. Ok, guys! it is your call!

Maami, you talk about being disillusioned! Right now, I am in Chennai and I see what is going on with Mr. MK's regime. He has recently spoken about providing reservations to Christians and Muslims!! What then? Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs, maybe? Who else is left? As someone said, maybe Tamil Nadu should be called 'Reservation Nadu'!!

Anyway, right now, our priority is to set up a trust and help out those needy youngsters in our community for education.

born_again_aiyer_maami said:

Dear SilverFox,

I did not seek to upset you with my post. But here is what I feel:
(a) This site is "tamilbrahmins.com" . We are here because we are dwindling in numbers, we are scattered, and our identity is under siege. I presume we are here because we take pride in our identity (religious,social,& cultural) and hope to preserve what is left of it. Now, along comes some smart-alec and suggests that we obliterate our identity altogether through conversion!!
Does this not defeat the very raison d' etre of this web-site? Why do you give voice to those who wish to bring about the destruction of what you seek to preserve?
(b) I think the Tamil Brahmin community is being put upon precisely because we espouse free-speech, liberalism, and progressive-politics. If I did not believe in these values, then I would be at one of those right-wing, realpolitik sites - although lately I am beginning to wonder whether I should move elsewhere. Why waste time at a site that espouses the destruction of my identity, as even-handedly as the preservation of it? If we don't stick-up for what is ours, here, then where? Who speaks for us?
Would the Jews/Americans/French take very kindly if they were asked to relinquish their Jewishness/American values/French traditions ? The ADL would be all over the place !!
(c) I believe in collective responsibility (that is our tradition), and so I certainly don't intend to hang everything on the administrators (and certainly not you) - but I think there are bounds even to free-speech. When free-speech borders on the inflammatory, and questions our very existence - then we should have the freedom to protest, editorialize, and SQUELCH!
I am sorry too, SilverFox - but I grow very disillusioned ...

Click to expand...

Maami you are right…And you always have the right to correct/guide !!

Maami you are right…And you always have the right to correct/guide !!

I agree with you 100%. Many among us always only wished such a forum like this. But these people brought out this forum and therefore we are all in to this. Really some very good discussions are taking place which we never had before. Earlier I did not know whether any such debates in any other tamil Brahmins form/associations took place or not. Thanks to the internet. Otherwise even if it took place, many among us would not have been ‘heard’ as we do not possess the art of pushing & hanging loudly our views as is being seen in Big Fight etc. But I agree with you that “I think there are bounds even to free-speech. When free-speech borders on the inflammatory, and questions our very existence - then we should have the freedom to protest, editorialize, and SQUELCH!”

I think you seem to be angry with Mr.Silverfox as is seen in your words [I certainly don't intend to hang everything on the administrators (and certainly not you)] I am not here to advocate for anybody and I did not even know him or seen him. From his posts you will find that he himself admits many times that he is an AGCD. I could visualize him as a fatherly figure who does some questionings and corrections genuinely and truthfully to the best of his knowledge. What else could be the reason Maami but for his real concern for this community? Again Maami your writings are inspiring and your questioning makes us to think and above all you are like mother to all here. I am sure you will write many more topics and make every one of us feel proud and united.

GURUMURTHYJI

Dear SilverFox, Kashyap, and Gurumuthyji:

Let me first set the record straight - I have absolutely no animus towards SilverFox (or any other administrator!) at all. In truth, I really like SilverFox for: his humour, his spirited replies to critics, and his taking the trouble to put together this forum, the trust, and manage the show. These are not small tasks - and we must staunchly support the initiative, the time, the energy, and the effort.
My purpose was to spur debate on the bounds of free-speech, and when we should take a stand when arguments become specious, meaningless, and silly.
I would like to make my position crystal clear: I am very well aware of the dangers of censorship/editorial power. As the old saying goes: be careful what you wish for, it just might come true!!
I was also trying to point out that (a) conversion, and the (b) advocacy of exogamy, strike at the very core of our identity. An identity that we as a group hope to preserve (in whatever shape/form).
I am trying to make a very important point here: it is because of our openness, our mobility and our adaptability that we have been able to survive since the 1920s (and perhaps through many other upheavals in our history) - but make no mistake, it is that same openness, mobility and adaptability that poses the greatest threat to our identity.
Why do I say this? I say this, because on this very forum we have members who: eat meat, do not eat meat, members who wear a poonal, members who do not wear a poonal, members who do sandhyaavandhanam, members who do not ... Each of us has a position on these issues, and good reasons for making these choices. However, each of these little, little details impact the definition of our group identity - here I am borrowing from Arundhati Roy (yes, I know many of you may not share her politics) when she says "it is the small things" - and I think that is a very astute observation on her part. Or to phrase it differently, large oaks grow out of small acorns. It is the small, small choices we make that eventually constitute our personal identity. Our community is nothing but a collective these personal identities. So each of those little, little details changes our group identity as well.
For instance, I can no longer say "Every Tamil Brahmin does sandhyaavandhanam"
It is because of this that we have trouble defining "who we are".
Still, by whatever definition, here we are - and as SilverFox says let us start by contributing to the trust, strengthening our numbers and helping those in our midst ...

When we look at things with coloured glass, everything looks coloured. Here is another point of view:

Few months back, I received an elaborate e-mail from one patriot which praised over nation, our values and our traditions and invited attention to the fact that ours is the oldest civilization which still survives and flourishes, we have great historical monuments, tons of traditional literature, .... and that economy is doing exceedingly well, all the top shots in big MNC s (Cococola, Pepsi, IBM, Microsoft etc.) are Indians, Indians are calling the shots in silicon valley and NASA etc., Indians are becoming Governor in Canada and senators in US etc. etc. I forwarded the e-mail to many of my friends and I am sure many of you also might have received similar type of e-mails from your friends few months back.

Somewhere in the same e-mail it was mentioned...."Where else but in India where you find a predominantly Hindu nation voting for a Christian (Sonia) who voluntarily gives up the top job in favour of a Sikh who is sworn in by a Muslim President..."

The e-mail really made us feel proud to be an Indian. I felt that inspite of our illiteracy, povery and bagful of sorrows, we are a far more enlightened nation than most other countries of the world.

Now, the current thread with some of its postings somehow thoroughly trashes such feelings and and makes us feel small in our own eyes.

It seems we are still not able to look beyond the narrow confines of divisiveness.

Let me quote Gitanjali by Tagore:

Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.



---------------------
Perhaps it will us take many more centuries to measure up to the standards of enlightenment envisioned by Tagore.

LQ:
Yes, one should welcome excellent thoughts and wisdom from all corners of the world - but one does not have to shed one's own identity to do so.
I note a lot of self-deprecation and self-hatred in some posts - and I find that is cause for great concern.
I have never advocated that we gloss over the short-falls in our own community - but rather than trash it, I ask that people come forth with constructive countervailing solutions. I urge discernment, not outright rejection of other traditions.
It is those of us who are secure, confident and self-assured in our own gifts and self-worth, who truly appreciate both the pros and the cons of other civilizations. Let me tell just say that Tagore was one such soul.
The same Tagore wrote in the lesser known "Nababarsha":
We have to feel this enormous strength residing in the heart of peace; we have to understand this rock-solidity (not jump ship to Christianity???) lying at the base of tranquillity. Amidst many difficulties over centuries, it has been this unwavering inner strength of Bharatavarsha that has been guarding us. And when the occasion would arise again, it would be this power, firm in its commitment, this power emanating from the Bharatavarsha that is poor, that is ill-clad, without adornment, without words, that would rise again and extend its reassuring hand to Bharatavarsha. The English jackets, the furniture from English shops, the perfect imitation of the way of speaking of English teachers would not survive and would be of no use at all. Him that in total indifference we are not even looking at, whom we are not even trying to understand and know, and sitting by the window of the English school, even a glimpse of whose unadorned appearance is making our earlobes red with embarrassment and we are turning away our face in shame, it is he that represents the true eternal Bharatavarsha. He does not keep on dancing to the Western tune and beats set by our orators in conference rooms. Clad in loincloth he is waiting alone and silently, seated on his grass mat in the dusty boundless riverside fields radiating fiery sun. He is dreadfully strong, he is frightfully painstaking, and he observes fasting as a vow. Within his thin skeletal frame he still keeps aflame the deathless, sorrowless, reassuring oblation fire of the ancient hermitage. And, all our trappings of today, our boastings, our applause, our falsehood, all that is our own creation, all that we now consider as the only reality in Bharatavarsha, as the single Great Truth, that which is flippant, which is restless, which is only a mass of foam surging from the Western Ocean, in the event of a storm arising all these would vanish into the thin air.
Tagore never asked us to become English/Christian - he asked us to be secure in ourselves, so we may see the best in others.

Dear Gurumurthy:
I am taking your posting about me as a compliment!! (I think you are trying to be nice to me, right?)
However, just because I have a name "silver fox" doesn't mean I am just sitting on a rocking chair, watching the sun rise and go down and dishing out advice!!! (not that I am wise!) I play a mean game of tennis for two hours every day (except Mondays), run for two miles every two-three days, and in my current assignment I don't even leave the office before 7 pm!!
In any case, while I still admit I am an AGCD, what has that got to do with this posting?

Born_again_Aiyar_Maami: Thank you very much indeed for your kind words; I deeply appreciate it even though I don't deserve it. The bulk of the credit to start this forum goes to Praveen, and Ramki has been doing a fantastic job behind the scenes. We also have Chintana who is outstanding in her supporting this forum.
Once again, I DID NOT take your posting in a negative way at all...and, please don't worry about it.

Lotus_quartz: Nice posting. However, I am confused; as soon as I start to feel proud to be an Indian (well, as Indian-born for me!), I see all these disturbing news (which started this thread). Then I see the politicians trying to put everybody in the BC bandwagon (except Brahmins, of course); I see Karnataka guys beating up anybody Tamilian just because the Supreme Court decreed that Tamil Nadu should get Kaveri water! What is there to be proud of as an Indian?
Corret me if I am wrong!


<<Gurumurthyji------I am not here to advocate for anybody and I did not even know him or seen him. From his posts you will find that he himself admits many times that he is an AGCD. I could visualize him as a fatherly figure who does some questionings and corrections genuinely and truthfully to the best of his knowledge. What else could be the reason Maami but for his real concern for this community?>>>

Dear friends:
I had sent this article by Francis Gautier to a very close friend (Brahmin) of mine. Of course, he still woudn't join our forum; keeps saying that we are castiest!! Anyway, here is excerpts from his reply about Gautier:
I am not good in writing; I would love to send him a good rebuttal! Maybe one of you can send me a good reply!

"
This guy is demented. One more fanatic like RSS/Shiv Sena. His talk is pure bull-shit.
You keep reading him and taking him seriously, you will follow him too.
Hinduism has survived Islamic rule for over six centuries. Later ruled by British for two more.
2.5% Christians will not take away Hindu importance. A secular India is best for Hinduism. So what if Sonia pretends. All other politicians do so. Why not her?
I offer to pay for his treatment with a proper doctor. Also I offer the same for others who feel India should be like Pakistan, a Hindu nation.
There are so many ways to demonstrate ones love for Hindusim instead of this constant obsessive and stupid hatred for Christinity or Islamic faith.
Why not all of us support 'all poor hindus' instead of supporting only 'Brahmins'. One of the 'curses' of Hindusim is caste and it is being perpetuated by folks like you. Why not start doing a service to Hindusim by fighting against Castism."

Dear Sri.Silver fox Sir,

[I am taking your posting about me as a compliment!! (I think you are trying to be nice to me, right?)]

Yes you are right.

[However, just because I have a name "silver fox" doesn't mean I am just sitting on a rocking chair, watching the sun rise and go down and dishing out advice!!! (not that I am wise!) I play a mean game of tennis for two hours every day (except Mondays), run for two miles every two-three days, and in my current assignment I don't even leave the office before 7 pm!!]


Vow !! fantastic!! I thought you are retired but not tired.

In any case, while I still admit I am an AGCD, what has that got to do with this posting?

Nothing Sir. That is only to say that you are a jovial, a very open minded and straight forward. Person. If you feel offended, please bear with me, I withdraw the word.

GURUMURTHYJI

Dear Gurumurthy:
Please, I thought you knew me by now!! I was NEVER offended by you at all; Nobody can offend me; I left my ego long time ago!!I was merely asking that question because I didn't see the connection. In any case, thank you for your kind words.
By the way, I liked your words: ".......retired but not tired"

The majority has to make the minority feel secure in a democracy

In a democracy the majority has to make the minority feel secure. Brahmins are the minority and they need to be made to feel secure by the majority non-brahmins. As far christians, their belief is that jesus will return to the world when all the humans in the world are christians. Hence they are bent upon converting others(I can only pity those who think Jesus is a politician who needs to be elected unanimously so that he will feel comfortable in returning back ). About islamic teachings the less said the better since even the western liberals all now know what it is after Sep11.
Hope we dont get into lengthy posts defending these acts by trying to disassociate these from respective religions. I think there is a limit to hypocrisy and willful distortions.

But Brahminical teachings never say anything about conversion. Its principle is to live and let live. There is no incentive to killing people ( such as 72 virgins and 14 under age boys after you blow up yourselves and innocent people to smitherens)
There is no incentive to conversion either.

So I ask people advocating their "wisdom" to brahmins in this forum to go do that in other commuity forums first since that wisdom needs to reach where it is needed --the majority communities and communities with conversion zeal.

It is for the non-brahmins/christians/muslims to make the miniscule minority of brahmins to feel safe in the motherland for whose freedom they sacrificed themselves.

A matter of perception

Francois Gautier is of course a Hindu fundamentalist, in the sense he believes in the fundamentals of Vedic religion. It is of course ironic that he espouses greater adherence to the Vedic religion, than the friend mentioned below. We have a wide spectrum of people who belong to the endogamous group called Brahmanas. Some believe in orthodoxy to the extreme, some prefer to disown their Brahmana identity completely.

Repeating the tired analogy of Jews, there are the rabbis and the orthodox living in the kibbutzes, while there are the ultra-liberal in America. There are very few converts to Judaism, mostly it is endogamous. But more importantly, Jews are given their identity mostly because others regard them as Jews. They cannot disown their identity, even if they want to, because unless every single last person in the world forgets their identity, it will remain with them forever.

Same with Brahmanas, we cannot forget our identity, even if we want to. We should definitely aim to help all poor Hindus, not just Brahmanas, if no one was helping those Hindus. However, given that the TN govt is actively helping out poor Hindus, except Brahmanas, we should aim to help those unfortunate ones who have been wronged by society. Who else is going to help those poor Brahmanas' children? It is a question of priority. What answer does your friend have regarding the case of someone like ragachandrika, surviving with her mother on 3000 Rupees a month, turned away by the Govt of TN? If she had been dishonest enough to get a OBC certificate, would she still be doing a B.Sc.? It would be great if your friend could call her and say, "Ok, I know how to help you. Do not be casteist. Help those of other castes and donate money to them."

I find such pompousness primarily coming from some of those who are well-off and are basically rootless without a sense of identity or empathy. Also some members of a weakened group develop this sense of self-hatred in the face of overwhelming odds. Since the saying is "Misery loves company", they feel this tremendous need to justify their mental cowardice and try to spread this around to other members of the group. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for one's own identity which cannot be disowned anyway because everyone else will not let it be. So it is best to become comfortable with it, treat everyone else's identity also with tolerance and respect and move on. Courage and confidence are what ultimately earn respect from everyone, not self-hatred. The latter only invites pity, and eventual oblivion.

silverfox said:

"
This guy is demented. One more fanatic like RSS/Shiv Sena. His talk is pure bull-shit.
You keep reading him and taking him seriously, you will follow him too.
Hinduism has survived Islamic rule for over six centuries. Later ruled by British for two more.
2.5% Christians will not take away Hindu importance. A secular India is best for Hinduism. So what if Sonia pretends. All other politicians do so. Why not her?
I offer to pay for his treatment with a proper doctor. Also I offer the same for others who feel India should be like Pakistan, a Hindu nation.
There are so many ways to demonstrate ones love for Hindusim instead of this constant obsessive and stupid hatred for Christinity or Islamic faith.
Why not all of us support 'all poor hindus' instead of supporting only 'Brahmins'. One of the 'curses' of Hindusim is caste and it is being perpetuated by folks like you. Why not start doing a service to Hindusim by fighting against Castism."

Click to expand...

Dear Sri Gurumurthy Ji and dear Sri Silverfox Ji,

What is AGCD? Can either of you enlighten me?

Silverfox Ji, regarding your friend's reaction to Mr. Gautier and Casteism, these are my thoughts:

There are a growing number of western intellectuals who have adopted Hinduism in their adulthood (some from Judaism, most from Christianity, like Professor Elst)), who are now applying their unique Abrahamic vision of a religion to Hinduism. Some of them consider Gandhi Ji as inflicting serious wounds to Hinduism and some others consider the Paramahamsa as a 'drohi' to Hinduism! All these folks have one thing in common - they all are raising alarm bells about 'pseudo-secularism' in India and the designs of other religions about Hinduism.

I agree qith Mr. Gautier about 80% of the time. But at times he is contradictory - for example, he wants everyone in Hinduism to treat everyone else as 'equal'. But then he believes in Brahminism also. He follows Sri Aurobindo's teachings and I think he is still formulating his Hindu world view. I am not then surprised that your friend would make such a comment!

Regarding casteism - I do not think it will go away soon. So the question is how to contribute to the unfortunate ones caught in the effects of it (reservations, poverty, etc) among Hindus.

Regarding censorship - I am totally against it. We are not a community that needs to fear anyone verbally attacking us from a different community in these pages. We have enough brilliant folks here (myself excluded) who can enlighten and outwit any attacker. As I have seen, the Administrators are all also very sharp and bright. If we do censor, I would hope that a very transparent and non subjective policy is devised and implemented.

Sorry for the long post.

Pranams,
KRS

Dear KRS:
AGCD is a play on the acronym ABCD - American-Born-Confused-Desis - I was using it with tongue-in-cheek!! AGCD - American Grown Confused Desi!!
We have got to have some levity sometimes!!

And.... thank you for your thoughtful comments. I will send your comments to my friend.

silverfox,
regarding the friend of yours. Such people dont care about others , the society. They mask their apathy with false talks about 'equality". If he is against casteism, he must first fight against the very cause of it -- the reservation policy. These people are either apathetic and selfish and/or spineless.

Dear Sri Kashyap Ji,

Please do not take my following comments wrong. I think you are being quite harsh on Sri Silverfox's friend. Just from his comments alone, you have drawn some generalizations about him.

We need to allow for all different efforts and contributions to the society based on one's inclination and capacity. Not everyone can contribute at the same level.

I also beg to differ - 'reservation policy' is not the cause of casteism - it is the other way around. Now one can debate whether the policy is justified or not, but we need to always remember that it was originally approved because a majority of folks saw merit in it (that's why they put a time limit also). But it has been used for other purposes now, and so it is bad.

Please, let us unite all of us together, without generalizing. 'Everyone in this world is an actor' as the great poet once said.

Pranams,
KRS

Against all odds !

silverfox said:

D
What is there to be proud of as an Indian? Corret me if I am wrong!

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1. Surviving against all odds

2. Living in India is like living atop a Volcano, with several undercurrents of tension. So against this backdrop it is so abnormal to be normal in India.

3. Little islands of excellence amongst mediocracity. No i am not referring to IITs or IIMs, i am referring to the few faceless, nameless individuals who have sacrificied their lives for the causes they strongly believe in.

4. You are not wrong but you are wrong. Living in India is no ordinary life. India will make you feel proud one moment, next moment it will shame you. It will oscillate from one extreme to another in matter of minutes, but that's the way India is.

India should be seen through a prism & the choice of the prism is yours. India will exhilirate or frustrate depending on the prism you choose to view it.

Hari,

Wonderfully expressed. Could not have been stated better.

We all should read the book "The Wonder that was India" by A.L.Basham.

It really gives a comprehensive picture of the greatness of our country.

LQ

hariharan1972 said:

1. Surviving against all odds

2. Living in India is like living atop a Volcano, with several undercurrents of tension. So against this backdrop it is so abnormal to be normal in India.

3. Little islands of excellence amongst mediocracity. No i am not referring to IITs or IIMs, i am referring to the few faceless, nameless individuals who have sacrificied their lives for the causes they strongly believe in.

4. You are not wrong but you are wrong. Living in India is no ordinary life. India will make you feel proud one moment, next moment it will shame you. It will oscillate from one extreme to another in matter of minutes, but that's the way India is.

India should be seen through a prism & the choice of the prism is yours. India will exhilirate or frustrate depending on the prism you choose to view it.

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Dear Hari and LQ:
I certainly hope I did not give you an impression of apathy towards India, my birth-mother! Perhaps I wrote it in anguish on what I saw: that we, as Indians, weren't treating each other as fellow-Indians; everything is so clannish and regionalistic.
But your point is well taken.

kind begets kind

Dear KRSji

I may sound harsh but the fact is I am replying in kind to what he said :

This guy is demented. One more fanatic like RSS/Shiv Sena. His talk is pure bull-shit.

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One of the 'curses' of Hindusim is caste and it is being perpetuated by folks like you. Why not start doing a service to Hindusim by fighting against Castism

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I am not talking about contributions here. I know it is as per what each one is capable of. Even I would not call myself having done much. But I will not belittle the genuine efforts of Brahmins here by calling it casteist. The person does not know anything and it is he who is generalizing first. My response is in kind.
Why should my response be different from his? An opinion was asked. I gave a honest opinion. I did exactly the same as what he did to Francois Gautier.
The main thing is I want to be correct to my conscience rather than politically correct and I reply in kind.
When this person is saying we are perpetuating casteism by staying together to help our community, then I don’t see anything wrong in my comments towards him.
This is me and I don’t want to be apologetic. If he did not make that comment, then I would not have. Regarding the reasons why we are here I am sure the organizers know it well and would have let that person know it. In spite of that he has made such a comment. So I don’t think my response was harsh. I stick by it.

As far reservation I always meant reservation as being practiced in India from 1921.
Not the ideal one.

Actually, if you see K.M.vijayan’s PIL he says reservation in any form is undesirable and does not achive anything useful and on the contrary is not good for the society. Ther are many other ways to help disadvantaged people.

If anything goes when a majority approves it then it in effect means a brute majority can do anything to a minority which I am sure no just person will agree.


I know we are all playing a role in the drama. But that does not mean you need to be passive. It is false philosophy (just like what arjuna was preaching because he was seized by fear into inaction ) . Only action as taught by Krishna will help. If not action at least the thought towards that is important, not self-deprecating thoughts and false sense of justice and branding a commuity welfare activity as being casteist.

BTW I have great respect for you , your age, thoughts and experience. But I choose to stick to my views. J