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Tamilbrahmins என்ற அமைப்பில்
தர்க்கம் மட்டுமே கூடாது
தவறான பிரச்சாரம் செய்வதால்
தடம்மாறிப் போய்விடக் கூடாது

வாதத்தில் வார்த்தை மட்டுமல்ல
வாழ்க்கையும் கூட வீணாகிறது.
இலக்கியத்தில் இலக்கணம் மட்டுமல்ல
இதயமும் கூட நிறைவடைகிறது.

பரிமாற்றம் செய்தால்தான் பொருளின்
பரிணாமம் உலகுக்குத் தெரியும்
பரிகாசம் செய்து வந்தால்
பரிகாரம் எப்படி முடியும்?

அன்புத் தமிழையே அறியாமல்
ஆங்கிலம் மட்டுமே அறிந்தவர்கள்;
ஆசாரம் தெரியாமல் வாழ்வின்
அவசரம் மட்டுமே தெரிந்தவர்கள்

அடுக்காத விஷயங்களை நாளும்
அனாயாசமாய்ப் பதிவு செய்பவர்கள்
அந்தண சமுதாயத்தை எதிர்த்து
அரட்டல் மிரட்டல் செய்பவர்கள்

அத்தனை பேரும் வந்து
அனர்த்தம் செய்கிறார் இங்கு
அதிகாரம் எதுவும் செல்லாது
அனர்த்தம் இங்கே நில்லாது
 
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Tamilbrahmins என்ற அமைப்பில்
தர்க்கம் மட்டுமே கூடாது
தவறான பிரச்சாரம் செய்வதால்
தடம்மாறிப் போய்விடக் கூடாது

வாதத்தில் வார்த்தை மட்டுமல்ல
வாழ்க்கையும் கூட வீணாகிறது.
இலக்கியத்தில் இலக்கணம் மட்டுமல்ல
இதயமும் கூட நிறைவடைகிறது.

பரிமாற்றம் செய்தால்தான் பொருளின்
பரிணாமம் உலகுக்குத் தெரியும்
பரிகாசம் செய்து வந்தால்
பரிகாரம் எப்படி முடியும்?

அன்புத் தமிழையே அறியாமல்
ஆங்கிலம் மட்டுமே அறிந்தவர்கள்;
ஆசாரம் தெரியாமல் வாழ்வின்
அவசரம் மட்டுமே தெரிந்தவர்கள்

அடுக்காத விஷயங்களை நாளும்
அனாயாசமாய்ப் பதிவு செய்பவர்கள்
அந்தண சமுதாயத்தை எதிர்த்து
அரட்டல் மிரட்டல் செய்பவர்கள்

அத்தனை பேரும் வந்து
அனர்த்தம் செய்கிறார் இங்கு
அதிகாரம் எதுவும் செல்லாது
அனர்த்தம் இங்கே நில்லாது
அன்பு ஹரிதாச சிவா அவர்களுக்கு ,

நீண்ட நாட்களாக உங்களைப் பார்க்க
முடியவில்லை .

எந்த சூழ்நிலை உங்களை இப்படி
எழுத வைத்தது
என்று எனக்குத் தெரியாது.

எது எப்படியோ ..நன்றாகவே வடித்துள்ளீர்கள் -
வெடித்தும் உள்ளீர்கள் .. ''சிவகாசிக்கு'' நன்றி.
 
என் பெயரிலேயே "சிவ" இருக்கிறது. சிவனுக்குப் பிரபலமான ஊர்களில் ஒன்று காசி. அதனால் தான் "சிவகாசி"!

I wrote about some of the discussion topics in this forum. I was lazy to think to contribute to Literature forum. That is why you could not see me for long.
 
Dear Mr.Hsridasasiva, here i have meant ''Sivakasi crackers ''.
I know that u r going heater arguments to some other members ,
in ur general discussion platform..
 
Tamilbrahmins என்ற அமைப்பில்
தர்க்கம் மட்டுமே கூடாது
தவறான பிரச்சாரம் செய்வதால்
தடம்மாறிப் போய்விடக் கூடாது

வாதத்தில் வார்த்தை மட்டுமல்ல
வாழ்க்கையும் கூட வீணாகிறது.
இலக்கியத்தில் இலக்கணம் மட்டுமல்ல
இதயமும் கூட நிறைவடைகிறது.

பரிமாற்றம் செய்தால்தான் பொருளின்
பரிணாமம் உலகுக்குத் தெரியும்
பரிகாசம் செய்து வந்தால்
பரிகாரம் எப்படி முடியும்?

அன்புத் தமிழையே அறியாமல்
ஆங்கிலம் மட்டுமே அறிந்தவர்கள்;
ஆசாரம் தெரியாமல் வாழ்வின்
அவசரம் மட்டுமே தெரிந்தவர்கள்

அடுக்காத விஷயங்களை நாளும்
அனாயாசமாய்ப் பதிவு செய்பவர்கள்
அந்தண சமுதாயத்தை எதிர்த்து
அரட்டல் மிரட்டல் செய்பவர்கள்

அத்தனை பேரும் வந்து
அனர்த்தம் செய்கிறார் இங்கு
அதிகாரம் எதுவும் செல்லாது
அனர்த்தம் இங்கே நில்லாது

dear siva,

dont you think it is a bit unfair to paint a wholesome innuendo post like this. it sort of reminded me, of those political speeches heard around my street corner, in my young days, santhome mylapore.

it might help us all, if you identify who here, does அனர்த்தம் and point out the அனர்த்தம்s.

also, those who 'அந்தண சமுதாயத்தை எதிர்த்து, அரட்டல் மிரட்டல் செய்பவர்கள்' are. maybe i am one in your view? i dont know, not that is important.

'அன்புத் தமிழையே அறியாமல் ஆங்கிலம் மட்டுமே அறிந்தவர்கள்;' - this is me i am sure :) so what? i do not know hindi or i could titillate you in that language too.

i think, if we are somewhat detatched, all of us can 'பரிமாற்றம் செய்தால்தான் பொருளின் பரிணாமம் உலகுக்குத் தெரியும்'.

i agree with you on, பரிகாசம் செய்து வந்தால் பரிகாரம் எப்படி முடியும்? . but then it is a thin line between constructive criticism and personal attacks. n'est pas?

hope it is a mild winter in joburg :)
 
Dear Mr.Hsridasasiva, here i have meant ''Sivakasi crackers ''.
I know that u r going heater arguments to some other members ,
in ur general discussion platform..

I understood what you meant. But I do not think I was "going heater arguments to some other members".
 
dear siva,

dont you think it is a bit unfair to paint a wholesome innuendo post like this. it sort of reminded me, of those political speeches heard around my street corner, in my young days, santhome mylapore.

it might help us all, if you identify who here, does அனர்த்தம் and point out the அனர்த்தம்s.

also, those who 'அந்தண சமுதாயத்தை எதிர்த்து, அரட்டல் மிரட்டல் செய்பவர்கள்' are. maybe i am one in your view? i dont know, not that is important.

'அன்புத் தமிழையே அறியாமல் ஆங்கிலம் மட்டுமே அறிந்தவர்கள்;' - this is me i am sure :) so what? i do not know hindi or i could titillate you in that language too.

i think, if we are somewhat detatched, all of us can 'பரிமாற்றம் செய்தால்தான் பொருளின் பரிணாமம் உலகுக்குத் தெரியும்'.

i agree with you on, பரிகாசம் செய்து வந்தால் பரிகாரம் எப்படி முடியும்? . but then it is a thin line between constructive criticism and personal attacks. n'est pas?

hope it is a mild winter in joburg :)


I am rather baffled by your response. Why should I post an “innuendo”? I am instead posting this “explanation” to your post to prove that I have regards for you.

My post was not aimed at any one individual. I had just put down my position in the (TB) forum and the current happening in the forum. I was once active in Literature forum but almost deserted it for a long time. On the other hand, I was participating in the General Discussion side and I feel some of the recent discussions have exhausted me. But Literature can revive my energy. That is why I wrote:
வாதத்தில்வார்த்தைமட்டுமல்ல
வாழ்க்கையும்கூடவீணாகிறது.
இலக்கியத்தில்இலக்கணம்மட்டுமல்ல
இதயமும்கூடநிறைவடைகிறது
It translates as follows: “While arguments take not only words but also our life, literature fills not only grammar but also heart”.

Since the name of the forum is Tamil Brahmin, I feel the participants must know Tamil but I think some of the participants do not know Tamil. But I do not know who knows or who does not know which language and hence I can not hint at any one (including you) individually when I said
அன்புத் தமிழையே அறியாமல் ஆங்கிலம் மட்டுமே அறிந்தவர்கள்

Again, since the forum is for the “Brahmins community spread across the entire globe”, I expect the views in the forum to enrich Brahmanism. But the very word is treated with contempt in some of the threads. To me, it is unfair. In my view, such anti-Brahmin views dampen the spirit of the forum. “அடுக்காதவிஷயங்களை“ means matters which do not conform to the forum. And you are aware of many such matters being discussed. That is what I meant by “அனர்த்தம்“.

I can not take condemnation of anything and everything of Hinduism and/or Brahminism as a “constructive criticism”. Many such comments often reflect the individual’s negative views on Hinduism/Brahminism and in my opinion those comments are not for the improvement of our religion/caste but sheer ridicule – sometimes similar to what the politicians do in a street corner meeting. It is ironical that my opposition to such statements reminded you
of “those political speeches heard around my street corner, in my young days, santhome mylapore”.
We need to share (healthy) views and take corrective action to strengthen our religion/caste instead of just ridiculing Brahminical customs. That is what I meant in the lines ”பரிமாற்றம்செய்தால்தான்பொருளின் பரிணாமம்உலகுக்குத்தெரியும். பரிகாசம்செய்துவந்தால் பரிகாரம்எப்படிமுடியும்? I had also expressed my concern in the beginning of my post that we should not get derailed by vendetta against Hinduism/Brahminism being spread in some of the posts in the forum.

I do not think I ever resorted to personal attack in this forum nor would I ever do it. I believe in Shakespeare’s quote: “Condemn the fault and not actor of it”.

P.S.: It is very cold here and you are throwing a wet blanket!:behindsofa:
 
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Hi siva,

Maybe I am wrong, but I notice you were annoyed with my response. If so, apologies sir. Definitely did not intent to rile you up whatsoever, or throw a wet blanket.

My response was more of a rhetorical kind, and it might not have come across that way. So much so for the English language.

:)
 
...My response was more of a rhetorical kind, and it might not have come across that way.
K, you are not the target of Siva's indignation. There are several people in this web site who oppose Brahminism, but you don't fit the bill. Among those who oppose Brahminism, none is more upfront and direct than yours truly. So, if Siva's exasperation is against anyone, it cannot be anyone else but me, and I accept that charge. But I do not accept the way he has described my stand in the OP and post #7.

Some of Siva's grievances are understandable, but not defensible, besides, they have already been well settled.

  • Siva feels knowing Tamil is a must to be a member of this forum, but the rules are clear, it is not a must.
  • Siva expects the views expressed in this forum to enrich Brahmanism. But Praveen has repeatedly ruled all views are welcome, and nobody is forced to like the views expressed.
  • Siva says the views he considers "anti-Brahmin" dampen the spirit of the forum. But it is not for him to decide what is anti-Brahmin and what the spirit of the forum is. IMO, the spirit of the General Discussion forum is free exchange of ideas in a civil way. Further, what he considers anti-Brahmin is what I think is best for Brahmins and therefore pro-Brahmin.
  • Siva says he cannot take criticisms of Hinduism and/or Brahminism as “constructive criticism”, they are, for him condemnations. He is entitled to his opinion.
  • Siva says negative views on Hinduism/Brahminism are not for the improvement of our religion/caste but sheer ridicule – again, this is his view, probably shared by many. My opinion is, it is more important to place emphasis on improving people than improving religion or caste.
This web site has many forums, most of which are quite restrictive on what can be discussed. The General forum is meant for free exchange. If the ideas expressed there are disconcerting, then one needs to refrain from visiting the General forum. There are many people who never post in General forum. Paraphrasing the adage if you want to cook, be prepared to take some heat.


I believe in Shakespeare’s quote: “Condemn the fault and not actor of it”.
Siva, when a criticism is made against Hinduism/Brahminism, the right approach is to show why that criticism is unfounded, untenable, foolish, idiotic, or whatever. But to say that even expressing the criticism is a fault is no better than attacking the actor. If we go with your dictum, then those who oppose Brahminism must simply shut up. What I say to that is, make us shut up by the force of your arguments and logic, not by mere force.

Cheers!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
தேனான என்பேச்சைச் கேட்ப்பாய் !

K, you are not the target of Siva's indignation. There are several people in this web site who oppose Brahminism, but you don't fit the bill. Among those who oppose Brahminism, none is more upfront and direct than yours truly. So, if Siva's exasperation is against anyone, it cannot be anyone else but me, and I accept that charge. But I do not accept the way he has described my stand in the OP and post #7.

Some of Siva's grievances are understandable, but not defensible, besides, they have already been well settled.
  • Siva feels knowing Tamil is a must to be a member of this forum, but the rules are clear, it is not a must.
  • Siva expects the views expressed in this forum to enrich Brahmanism. But Praveen has repeatedly ruled all views are welcome, and nobody is forced to like the views expressed.
  • Siva says the views he considers "anti-Brahmin" dampen the spirit of the forum. But it is not for him to decide what is anti-Brahmin and what the spirit of the forum is. IMO, the spirit of the General Discussion forum is free exchange of ideas in a civil way. Further, what he considers anti-Brahmin is what I think is best for Brahmins and therefore pro-Brahmin.
  • Siva says he cannot take criticisms of Hinduism and/or Brahminism as “constructive criticism”, they are, for him condemnations. He is entitled to his opinion.
  • Siva says negative views on Hinduism/Brahminism are not for the improvement of our religion/caste but sheer ridicule – again, this is his view, probably shared by many. My opinion is, it is more important to place emphasis on improving people than improving religion or caste.
This web site has many forums, most of which are quite restrictive on what can be discussed. The General forum is meant for free exchange. If the ideas expressed there are disconcerting, then one needs to refrain from visiting the General forum. There are many people who never post in General forum. Paraphrasing the adage if you want to cook, be prepared to take some heat.


Siva, when a criticism is made against Hinduism/Brahminism, the right approach is to show why that criticism is unfounded, untenable, foolish, idiotic, or whatever. But to say that even expressing the criticism is a fault is no better than attacking the actor. If we go with your dictum, then those who oppose Brahminism must simply shut up. What I say to that is, make us shut up by the force of your arguments and logic, not by mere force.

Cheers!

ஆரிய வாதத்தை மீண்டும் அடுப்பிலேற்றி
தேரியகை வினைஞர் தம்தேரா வாதம்தனைப்
புதிதாகப் பொங்கலிட வந்தனரே அந்தணரே !

புரியாத பாட்டிற்கு மெட்டுப்போட்டு நீவீர்
கேட்காத செவிகளுக்குத் தாளமும் போட்டே
தனி ஆவர்த்தனம் செய்தால் தகுமோ?

பிறர்பொருள் ஆசை இல்லை நீவீர்
பிறன்மனை என்றும் புகுவதும் இல்லை
நுன்தன் எண்ணத்தில் மாசும் இல்லை

வேண்டாத சடங்குகள் வேண்டாம் இன்று
வீணான சம்பிராதையங்கள் விட்டொழி நன்று
தேனான என்பேச்சைச் கேட்ப்பாய் இன்று !
 
mother tongue

K, you are not the target of Siva's indignation. There are several people in this web site who oppose Brahminism, but you don't fit the bill. Among those who oppose Brahminism, none is more upfront and direct than yours truly. So, if Siva's exasperation is against anyone, it cannot be anyone else but me, and I accept that charge. But I do not accept the way he has described my stand in the OP and post #7.

Some of Siva's grievances are understandable, but not defensible, besides, they have already been well settled.
  • Siva feels knowing Tamil is a must to be a member of this forum, but the rules are clear, it is not a must.
  • Siva expects the views expressed in this forum to enrich Brahmanism. But Praveen has repeatedly ruled all views are welcome, and nobody is forced to like the views expressed.
  • Siva says the views he considers "anti-Brahmin" dampen the spirit of the forum. But it is not for him to decide what is anti-Brahmin and what the spirit of the forum is. IMO, the spirit of the General Discussion forum is free exchange of ideas in a civil way. Further, what he considers anti-Brahmin is what I think is best for Brahmins and therefore pro-Brahmin.
  • Siva says he cannot take criticisms of Hinduism and/or Brahminism as “constructive criticism”, they are, for him condemnations. He is entitled to his opinion.
  • Siva says negative views on Hinduism/Brahminism are not for the improvement of our religion/caste but sheer ridicule – again, this is his view, probably shared by many. My opinion is, it is more important to place emphasis on improving people than improving religion or caste.
This web site has many forums, most of which are quite restrictive on what can be discussed. The General forum is meant for free exchange. If the ideas expressed there are disconcerting, then one needs to refrain from visiting the General forum. There are many people who never post in General forum. Paraphrasing the adage if you want to cook, be prepared to take some heat.


Siva, when a criticism is made against Hinduism/Brahminism, the right approach is to show why that criticism is unfounded, untenable, foolish, idiotic, or whatever. But to say that even expressing the criticism is a fault is no better than attacking the actor. If we go with your dictum, then those who oppose Brahminism must simply shut up. What I say to that is, make us shut up by the force of your arguments and logic, not by mere force.

Cheers!

Sir,

I dont find any mistake in siva's forums.He want to establish his thoughts through this via media and he have every right to do this.
Knowing Tamil is not an important issue in this forum as said , but this is not for always.Here we dont ready to avoid Tamil .I think this is not a healthy way to freeze our mother tongue.
 
My response to post 8 & 9:

Post 8: K sir, you probably thought that I hinted at you and so you expressed your displeasure. Now that you have understood the truth, you have expressed apology. Fair enough. Btw, I also used "wet blanket" more in a rhetoric sense - both as idiom and to say that it is already cold and the wet blanket worsens it.

Post 9: Nara ji, I admire you, inter alia, for your courage and honesty. I agree with most of your views in this post. I wanted to give you a 'Like' for this post but the hypocrite in me stopped me from doing this. I also respect your vast knowledge. With your knowledge, you can do a big service to Brahmin community than what my "wishful thinking" can do. I am nowhere near you and hence I can not write against you. I do not have anything against anyone for that matter. But I do oppose some of the views, including that of you. I agree to disagree with you on many issues. I sincerely do believe in the quote "condemn the fault and not the actor of it".
 
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... I agree to disagree with you on many issues. I sincerely do believe in the quote "condemn the fault and not the actor of it".
Siva, I don't doubt that at all, but, to tell me I must not make negative comments is too broad a restriction, IMO.

Thanks for your high praise, when it comes from somebody who disagrees with me then it is even more valuable and a boost to my self-esteem, I won't let it get to my head, and, even if I did, I am sure there are enough people here to cut me down to size :), which is fine, keeps me honest and straight.

Cheers!
 
... I dont find any mistake in siva's forums.He want to establish his thoughts through this via media and he have every right to do this. Knowing Tamil is not an important issue in this forum as said , but this is not for always.Here we dont ready to avoid Tamil .I think this is not a healthy way to freeze our mother tongue.
Yes sir, I agree. I have no problem with Siva expressing his views.

About mother tongue, I don't see any danger of Tamil getting frozen out of this forum, why do you say that? Welcoming people who are not Tamils, or not knowing Tamil, is not freezing it out, is it?

Cheers!
 
Siva, I don't doubt that at all, but, to tell me I must not make negative comments is too broad a restriction, IMO.

I am not saying that you should not make negative comments. With your knowledge, you can point out the fallacy in Hinduism/Brahminism and suggest ways of improvements. At present you stop at making negative comments and do not go beyond that. You can also point out the strengths of H/B, which I am afraid you are not doing at present. A gullible brahmin could become an athiest with your arguments. Another issue is you appear to be "determined not to be convinced" with the arguments put forth by people opposite to your POV. That gives an impression that you are only interested in making negative arguments and are not willing to show positivity. I personally feel that is an unfair situation, if my understanding of your personality is correct. So, my request is highlight strengths of brahminism. You can do that easily if only you wish.

By the way, what does IMO mean?
 
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A gullible brahmin could become an athiest with your arguments.
Siva, if this happens that would be a welcome development. I have always stated that religion and caste do not offer any benefit that cannot be had in any other way. So, IMO (in my opinion) it is better to get rid of religion and caste than try to reform it. You may say this is impractical, for which I say reforming them is also quite impractical, especially caste.

Another issue is you appear to be "determined not to be convinced" with the arguments
This is a broad charge. I am ready to change my stance if a convincing argument is put forth. I can't be expected to get convinced just because a counter argument is made.

For example, in a different thread you made comments about HS being unnatural, etc., and I find your arguments not at all persuasive. At this point, all I can do is to back off. But to expect me to get convinced, you have to make a more persuasive argument.

Siva, the very fact that I have changed from a very observant TB to what I am today shows that and ready to be convinced by arguments that I find persuasive.

Cheers!
 
Naraji,

We do not associate ourselves with a caste/religion for any "benefit". It is an emotional attachment, mostly from birth.
I am glad if you are ready to change your opinion but my experience so far with your stand is the opposite. But I have not lost hopes, going by your honesty.
Thanks for clarifying "IMO".
 
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