Untouchability

Shanti Brahm · Jan 13, 2007

I'd like to start a new thread on untouchability in Hindu society as the original thread where this has been discussed (Why do Brahmins have Victim Mentality) seems to have been deleted all the way through.

I will postulate that there is an overall agreement that "untouchability" is wrong. But I will also claim that Ritual Purity is an important aspect of Brahminism and that Brahmin's should maintain the right to keep their practices of Ritual Purity in a modern society as many modern societies throughout the world have allowed indiginous and spiritual cultures and movements to hold on to their various forms of Purity.

The degradation of fellow human beings is wrong. But the degradation of the meaning of your own culture and perverting the meaning of Brahminism is the root of all problems Brahmins have faced and will face throughout their future.

Even if all ritual purity is abandoned by the Brahmin community, the historical context that is placed by the label of "untouchability" will forever keep the Brahmins in the "untouchable" class as a just karma and revenge for historic injustices by people in India and throughout the world.

I do not believe the concept of untouchability is even mentioned once in the Shastras. If it is, please show me and site all references. There was never the concept of "untouchability" in the Brahmin society, only the concept of cleanliness and purity and Satsang. Please prove otherwise. It is not in Veda, it is not in Shastra. Even the Manu Smritri (that was never ever something Brahmins have ever studied in their matts and was pulled like a rabbit from a hat in the 19th century like a Protocal of Zion) does not mention any class below the Shudra.

goundamani · Jan 15, 2007

Proponents of untouchability have always given it polished names like "ritual purity", "Madi" "aasaram", "thiittu" etc.

If you argue that untouchability is not there in vedas or shastras,then why should it be followed?Discard it.

What is this ritual purity?refusing to touch a sandala,refusing him entry into houses, refusing to eat with him, not allowing them into temples all such atrocities were done in name of ritual purity.

The rest of the world should refuse to touch people who follow such practices. Make them untouchables. Outcaste them. Declare them as non-humans.

In Hindu dharma respecting and honoring our guests is a time honored tradition.Thus practicing untouchability on a sudhra who comes to our house goes against the hindu vedas.So let hindus do away with this practice and treat all human beings as one with god.

Shanti Brahm · Jan 21, 2007

Double Standards

goundamani said:
Proponents of untouchability have always given it polished names like "ritual purity", "Madi" "aasaram", "thiittu" etc.

I'm not a proponant of untouchability, I am a proponant of giving priests and brahmins the freedom to practice Ritual Purity. I believe all humans should be given respect and dignity and "untouchability" should be driven out of our vocabulary as it is a degrading term.

goundamani said:
If you argue that untouchability is not there in vedas or shastras,then why should it be followed?Discard it.

I agree. I also think Brahmins should go out and champion the rights of those who have been degraded do to being labeled at one time in history as Untouchables. Brahmins should live to a higher standard and to higher values and should promote those higher values including dignity for all God's children (why isn't the term harijin used anymre?)

goundamani said:
What is this ritual purity?refusing to touch a sandala,refusing him entry into houses, refusing to eat with him, not allowing them into temples all such atrocities were done in name of ritual purity.

Does the Sandala eat meat? Is the Sandala a butcher? Does sandala work in brothel? What does sandala think and talk about? You see, these are important considerations for any Brahmin, especially one who does rituals (like gayatri japam) that make his thoughts have a strong affect on his environment.

In Brahminism, thought has direct affect. A Brahmin's curse was once feared and his blessings were something that actually caused good in one's life. Brahmin had power to mediate with gods. You will find few Brahmins with this power to benefit society but it's getting more and more rare. There are more Jewish Rabbis of the Levite and Cohen lineages ( who are more strict about ritual purity) who have this power today.

Take food: Jewish Kosher law states that steel vessals should be kept separate from glass and the two cannot be mixed in same meal. Also Milk products cannot be in same meal as meat products. All milk and meat products must be blessed by a rabbi. All food must be prepared only by Kosher practicing Jews.

If you read Kosher laws, there is no mention of "untouchability" in them. Only restricitons especially for Rabbis. A Rabbi is not allowed to touch a non-kosher practicing Jew or anyone who doesn't pratice Kosher. We all see the Rabbi and respect that. We understand that you cannot enter his house exept on certain hours on certain days you can see him in a special guest reception room. I did not feel the least bit indignant or insulted by that.

So I experience such things and notice a double standard for our own priests. It leaves a lot of questions. I've had experiece with my trip to Vatican as well (centre of Catholicism) and I am full of questions.

Also, where temples there for all people, or where they temples built around agraharams? We need to ask such questions and really understand ourselves before we condemn an entire group of people for a practice we do not understand.

goundamani said:
The rest of the world should refuse to touch people who follow such practices. Make them untouchables. Outcaste them. Declare them as non-humans.

And the rest of the world has. Brahmins have been disgraced for all time all over the world for being the wickedist dehumanising group in all the world. Look at all textbooks that get read by any school child in America. Brahmins are disgraced and hated by American school children from the time they are ten and take their first world history course.

There is even a role playing game for American kids who are taught to be Brahmins and Untouchables where the Brahmins mistreat untouchables. It is written into the teacher's lesson plans of many states in America. This is some of what we have to fight in this country.

goundamani said:
In Hindu dharma respecting and honoring our guests is a time honored tradition.Thus practicing untouchability on a sudhra who comes to our house goes against the hindu vedas.So let hindus do away with this practice and treat all human beings as one with god.

I agree. But there is a double standard. One standard for the western and Islamic traditions, and one for the Hindu. This must be made clear. The Dalai Lama has cleared the name of the Tibetan Buddhist Monastries for all time (remember that they were once greedy gold hording monks who oppressed and enslaved the tibetan people according to Chinese propaganda?) by revealing and promoting Tibetan Budhhism and because the Tibetan people have always respected their Buddhist priests and love their Dalai Lama.

As far as what one does with one's home, one should be free to allow anyone to enter or not enter his or her home. After all, it's your home! If you don't want a rapest (or someone who has a free view of sex and talks vulgar) entering your home because you have young daughters in your home, you should have the right to deny that person entry. If someone is a meat eater and full of rajasic energy and you are keeping a calm spiritual energy in the home, you don't want someone disturbing the mental equalibrium or saintly feel or build up of energy. If there is a person who drinks... you get my point. One should be free to allow people in their space or deny people from their space for whatever reason. That is why we own space.

If a woman freely lets anyone enter her private space equally to all men, she'd be considered a whore. That is not freedom, that is abuse. I certainly hope brahmins are not denied the right to their own homes in India.

goundamani · Jan 21, 2007

Shanti Brahm said:
I'm not a proponant of untouchability, I am a proponant of giving priests and brahmins the freedom to practice Ritual Purity. I believe all humans should be given respect and dignity and "untouchability" should be driven out of our vocabulary as it is a degrading term.

I agree. I also think Brahmins should go out and champion the rights of those who have been degraded do to being labeled at one time in history as Untouchables. Brahmins should live to a higher standard and to higher values and should promote those higher values including dignity for all God's children (why isn't the term harijin used anymre?).

Thank you for the encouraging words.Harijans refers to sons of Hari (Hindu god),whereas dalits can belong to other religions like buddhism and christianity also.Some dalits are atheists too.

Shanti Brahm said:
Does the Sandala eat meat? Is the Sandala a butcher? Does sandala work in brothel? What does sandala think and talk about? You see, these are important considerations for any Brahmin, especially one who does rituals (like gayatri japam) that make his thoughts have a strong affect on his environment.

How many brahmins eat meat?Dont brahmin women like lakshmi and aiswarya act in movies and are being accused of having affairs?what do brahmins think and talk about?Dont they think about bad things?Are they holier than others?

No caste can claim that they are superior to others by words, acts and deeds and can claim that their house will be 'contaminated' if person of other caste enters his house.

who made sandala to eat meat , clean toilets and work in brothels?Who made those rules?It was manu.The sandala has obeyed those rules and remained like a slave.Now the same rules are cited to keep him out.Manudharma made him unclean and in modern day that uncleanliness is used as a weapon against him.

How can we say that sandala thinks and talks bad?Is thinking and talking bad the character of a sandala?If sandalas enter the houses of upper caste people will they talk bad and abusive words?OMG..I am shocked to hear these words.

Sandalas have always addressed upper caste people as 'sir", "Lord" "sami" and 'durai". on the other hand its the upper caste people who have always insulted them as 'sandalan", "panjaman", "pulaiyan", "pallan" "Paraiyan" "milechan" "thotti" and "sakkiliyan".It was the upper caste people who made sandala women to work as devadasis and ensured that they are forever be labelled as 'devadiya'.So who talks bad and thinks bad here?

Shanti Brahm said:
Take food: Jewish Kosher law states that steel vessals should be kept separate from glass and the two cannot be mixed in same meal. Also Milk products cannot be in same meal as meat products. All milk and meat products must be blessed by a rabbi. All food must be prepared only by Kosher practicing Jews.

If you read Kosher laws, there is no mention of "untouchability" in them. Only restricitons especially for Rabbis. A Rabbi is not allowed to touch a non-kosher practicing Jew or anyone who doesn't pratice Kosher. We all see the Rabbi and respect that. We understand that you cannot enter his house exept on certain hours on certain days you can see him in a special guest reception room. I did not feel the least bit indignant or insulted by that.

Idiotic and barbaric practices in one religion can only be justified by citing even more idiotic and barbaric practices in other religions.

I have argued with muslim friends of mine about stoning women to death and they will quote old testament to argue that "even in bible stoning to death is allowed".This is how they will argue for their barbaric customs of their religion.

Shanti Brahm said:
Also, where temples there for all people, or where they temples built around agraharams? We need to ask such questions and really understand ourselves before we condemn an entire group of people for a practice we do not understand.

Once temples were built kings of those days employed only brahmins to work there and they settled around the temples.Thats how agraharams came around temple.That doesnt mean temples were meant only for people in agraharams.

Shanti Brahm said:
I agree. But there is a double standard. One standard for the western and Islamic traditions, and one for the Hindu. This must be made clear. The Dalai Lama has cleared the name of the Tibetan Buddhist Monastries for all time (remember that they were once greedy gold hording monks who oppressed and enslaved the tibetan people according to Chinese propaganda?) by revealing and promoting Tibetan Budhhism and because the Tibetan people have always respected their Buddhist priests and love their Dalai Lama.

christianity is anti-human,has idiotic customs and verses, islam is anti-human, has barbaric customs and verses and varnashrama in hinduism is the most idiotic, barbaric and studpidest thing to happen to india and world.

One type of barbarianism cannot be justified because other types or barbaric customs exist.Just because christians kept blacks as slaves we cannot treat dalits as slaves.

Shanti Brahm said:
As far as what one does with one's home, one should be free to allow anyone to enter or not enter his or her home. After all, it's your home! If you don't want a rapest (or someone who has a free view of sex and talks vulgar) entering your home because you have young daughters in your home, you should have the right to deny that person entry. If someone is a meat eater and full of rajasic energy and you are keeping a calm spiritual energy in the home, you don't want someone disturbing the mental equalibrium or saintly feel or build up of energy. If there is a person who drinks... you get my point. One should be free to allow people in their space or deny people from their space for whatever reason. That is why we own space.

So I hope that before somebody enters our houses we ask their caste and depending on their caste we disallow them into our houses.

If somebody does that to me, I would stop being his friend and will think that he is the worst scum in the earth. As far as I am concerned he is dead and his friendship is dead. I would consider him as untoucbale and will spread the message to all my friends circle. I will make sure that the whole society knows what he did to me.

If a friend of mine doesnt allow me into his house because of my caste, I too have the right to spit on this friendship and tell about this to others, right?

One can either follow untouchability or be a human being. One cannot be both.

goundamani · Jan 21, 2007

I have heard so many arguments like this and the basic mentality behind such "ritual purity" arguments is that 'other castes are unclean'.

This is one example of how casteism makes people to act inhumanly.I dont think people who makes such inhuman arguments do that on purpose.They were brainwashed into this.They beleieve that by doing this they can attain paradise.This same mentality prevented them from earlier allowing dalits from entering into temples.

It is our house,yes.But does it mean that we will allow only friends who belong to our caste into our house?How shameful will this make us to appear before our friends?If a person's friends know this, will they even respect this person as a human being?

Such practices are a shame on our religion.I am really ashamed to be born into a religion that has such practices.Thankfully people who follow such practices are a minority among their own castes. Majority of brahmins have a very broad mindset and I am happyabout that fact.

kudumi · Jan 21, 2007

Sorry for asking this.

goundamani said:
I have heard so many arguments like this and the basic mentality behind such "ritual purity" arguments is that 'other castes are unclean'.

This is one example of how casteism makes people to act inhumanly.I dont think people who makes such inhuman arguments do that on purpose.They were brainwashed into this.They beleieve that by doing this they can attain paradise.This same mentality prevented them from earlier allowing dalits from entering into temples.

It is our house,yes.But does it mean that we will allow only friends who belong to our caste into our house?How shameful will this make us to appear before our friends?If a person's friends know this, will they even respect this person as a human being?

Such practices are a shame on our religion.I am really ashamed to be born into a religion that has such practices.Thankfully people who follow such practices are a minority among their own castes. Majority of brahmins have a very broad mindset and I am happyabout that fact.

My sincere apologies if I have offended you. Becasue I dont understand your agenda here.
Do you wash your hands after using the toilet, and before you touch food?
Have you ever attended any meetings after eating a salad with onions and seen the reaction in people's faces? Offcourse they did not force you to eat onions

).
We have equally derogatory terms for referring to brahmins..its called Pappan, paapathi.
And in my own village, my uncle will be called as "YUOW Aiiyirae" or "dei aiiyirae" depending on the mood.
And in my village, all roads are concrete roads, except brahmana theru.
Talk about untouchability

).
YOu are talking abot some laws which existed thousands of years back. YOu are not aware of the reality which brahmins face now.

goundamani · Jan 22, 2007

kudumi said:
My sincere apologies if I have offended you. Becasue I dont understand your agenda here.
Do you wash your hands after using the toilet, and before you touch food?
Have you ever attended any meetings after eating a salad with onions and seen the reaction in people's faces? Offcourse they did not force you to eat onions ).

Dear shri kudumi,

I dont understand what you mean by citing the examples of onions and washing hands.I hope that you did not intend to say that lower caste people dont wash their hands after going to toilet, dont clean their mouth after eating onions and higher caste people diligently follow such practices.whenever I go to my friends' house I have never been asked whether I wash my hands after going to toilet and neither have I asked anyone these questions before allowing them into my house.

மோப்ப குழையும் அனிச்சம் முகம் நோக்க
வாட்ட குழையும் விருந்து

kudumi said:
We have equally derogatory terms for referring to brahmins..its called Pappan, paapathi.
And in my own village, my uncle will be called as "YUOW Aiiyirae" or "dei aiiyirae" depending on the mood.

I agree that these are derogatory words and not the right way of addressing people.But I doubt whether any dalit would have addressed your uncle like that.It must have been a MBC/OBC person who would have adressed your uncle like that.

dalits will never dare to call anybody by their caste name.But most of the times they will be addressed as 'para payale'.

Shanti Brahm · Jan 22, 2007

Understanding the Principle behind the Action

In Aitreya Brahmana it is stated that one must understand the principle behind the krya. When one understnads the pricniple of the yagna, one can substitute the sacrificial animal with a coconut.

Similarly, for a Brahmin to maintain his ritual purity, he must understand the principle behind it. Accordingly, if another Brahmin eats meat and has conduct of a lower energy, the Brahmin should avoid his company. Brahman must maintain Satsang, that is communion with Satwic people. If Dalit has a Satwic lifestyle, tha Brahmin should seek his company.

This has always been historically true as it is today. There are many holy people of "lower" casts who have been shown great respect by Brahmins (who have even worshipped these people; eg. consider Saibaba.) According to Brahminism, Sudra is the feet of the Lord. All understand the importance of Lord's feet in Hinduism.

According to Brahmanism, there are two things one should look at when it comes to association. First is birth. This is because family life has influence. Next comes action. When actions are good, it supersedes birth. Even for Brahmin, if actions are bad he is no longer considered Brahmin.

As any Brahmin can tell you, Manu Smrtri is not an important work. It is Smritri after all, it's title is a big giveaway. Second, it contradicts much of Dharma Shastra as any educated Shastri will tell you. There are major sutras within the Shastra and Manu Smritri is something of an addition like an appendix. It is sad that many non-Brahmins use this work like a Protocals of Zion against the Brahmin community, most of which brahmins don't even (and have never) studied this work and are clueless as to it's content unless they study hinduism at a University instead of a matt.

goundamani · Jan 22, 2007

I dont understand the logic behind avoiding company of non-vegetarians.97% of the population eats meat.Dont brahmins come out of their houses and have friendship with them?What about temples, schools, colleges, hostels, parks, beeches, cinema halls, etc?Dont brahmins and these people come into contact in all these places?Avoiding company of the rest of 97% of population means virtual isolation of brahmin community, which I dont like at all.

shanthi brahm said:
According to Brahmanism, there are two things one should look at when it comes to association. First is birth. This is because family life has influence. Next comes action. When actions are good, it supersedes birth. Even for Brahmin, if actions are bad he is no longer considered Brahmin.

Association by birth? Who knows what happens inside a family?How do we judge good and bad family? When a person is good and pious isnt that an indication that his family has bought him up in a good way?Nobody gets anything special by birth.Hair color, facial color, features, genetical things (which come by birth) all come by genes which cut across caste and creed.

goundamani · Jan 22, 2007

I believe that the way forward for brahmin community is to foget the orthodox arguments and move ahead as global citizens.earlier people of this community were punished if they crossed sea.Such a mindset has wrought havoc on this community and had lead to the present day ills.

In the 21st century brahmins should move ahead,forgetting words like madi, asaram, thiittu, rituals, caste, community and purity etc. etc.Else this community will go in the dinousar's way and will become extinct.

Even though some members here hate people like sujatha, KB, kamal etc to the core,I would say that the ways treaded by such great men should be emulated by current day brahmins.Going back to vedic ways of living will lead the community to destruction.

What i say might look harsh and unpleasant, but this is the reality and truth.Orthodox people among brahmins will take the community to destruction, similar to how mullahs are ruining the lives of muslims.

Shanti Brahm · Jan 25, 2007

Sustaining the Brahmin Tejas

Dear Goundamani

I enjoy our conversation. I hope you don't mind if I make some strong statments of my own and hope you don't take any offence. I have profound respect for your desire to bring equality to all people and I share this desire but from a different angle.

goundamani said:
I believe that the way forward for brahmin community is to foget the orthodox arguments and move ahead as global citizens.earlier people of this community were punished if they crossed sea.Such a mindset has wrought havoc on this community and had lead to the present day ills.

I think it's the duty of the Brahmin to understand his traditions and history, not write it all off as superstition. This is the way ahead. The whole world comes to India because we are the only culture that continuos an ancient tradition that has died off everywhere in Ancient Egypt and Babylon, among the Greeks and Romans etc. If Fritz Stahl did not go to Kerala and study the living Brahmin tradition, the west would never have uncovered their own Pagan revival with the knowledge of yagna bringing life to Kabbalistic, Druid, and Runic western mysteries. Some mysteries need to be unlocked.:lock1:

Atleast the west can benefit from what the Indians reject.

goundamani said:
In the 21st century brahmins should move ahead,forgetting words like madi, asaram, thiittu, rituals, caste, community and purity etc. etc.Else this community will go in the dinousar's way and will become extinct.

The Dinosaur way is to not study deeply and gain understanding. The Dinosaur had the brain size of a walnut and could not grasp the concept of climate change that we humans today are only beginning to understand. We will bring many traditional Brahmins to the west to start agraharam communities here so that many scientists can study this spiritual energy. Crossing the sea is not against Brahminism as it is actually recommended to Brahmins in Taitreya Brahmana which is scripture and supersedes any Smitri (non-scripture) you try to quote.

PEER GROUPS

I think you mix up association with untouchability. If you have a son in college, do you wish him to associate with the ones who do drugs, like to drink too much, smoke cigarretes and ganja, look at pornography, etc... or would you like him to associate with people who have clean habits, are studious, believe in fair play, and hold friendship above success? This second group will make your son a Rama while the first will make him a Ravana.

Untouchability and Sex

If you really respect a woman you will not touch her. A woman has a right as to who she allows to touch her and who she doesn't allow to touch her. It does not mean that she looks down on men.

The Right of Individuals

Any individual has a right to live according to what they wish and that right should be extended to Brahmins. Have you ever questioned a Brahmin on his ritual purity practices? He will not quote Manu Smritri (most Brahmins don't even know content of Manu Smritri as the most traditonal of Brahmins are not even taught this ) but he will quote Brahmanas and scripture and you will realise that it is NOT what it has been made out to be.

goundamani said:
Even though some members here hate people like sujatha, KB, kamal etc to the core,I would say that the ways treaded by such great men should be emulated by current day brahmins.Going back to vedic ways of living will lead the community to destruction.

There is no hate. Only respect. I respect them for their choices. Let all people be free to live as they choose.

goundamani said:
What i say might look harsh and unpleasant, but this is the reality and truth.Orthodox people among brahmins will take the community to destruction, similar to how mullahs are ruining the lives of muslims.

Brahminism is the true light of Hinduism. One does not need varna system to exist to preserve Brahmanism. All one needs is to preserve the bloodlines of the Brahmins. The only way to end Brahminism is genocide and now that Brahmins are scattered all over the world, that notion is impossible.

Any Brahmin son who is decendent of one of the gotras associated with the Rishis who are associated with the stars of the Great Bear constellation can re-awaken his Brahma Tejas by doing Sandhyavandanam for one month. If the fire cannot exist in public, it will continue to exist in secret under the cloak of secret societies (as groups in the past have done in the west when oppressed by the Church.)

Brahmins are not equivelant to Mullahs. Brahmins do not give themselves that kind of power. Brahmins traditionally did not have military power or the power to run society, that was given to the Kshatriya. Brahmin did not have the wealth in Society, that was given to Vaisya. Brahmins don't declare themselves to be the only mediator between the gods and man. They have openly said in all ancient literature that anyone can be mediator. Brahmins simply carry a torch. They carry the ancient vibrational power of ancient rishis and dutifully keep this homam alive through many centuries for the benefit of whoever wishes to have it.

goundamani · Jan 25, 2007

Shanti Brahm said:
Dear Goundamani

I enjoy our conversation. I hope you don't mind if I make some strong statments of my own and hope you don't take any offence. I have profound respect for your desire to bring equality to all people and I share this desire but from a different angle.[/quote}

Not at all, madam.I wont take offense in any debates.If from my previous posts,it looked as if I took offense, my profound aplogies for that.

Shanti Brahm said:

I think it's the duty of the Brahmin to understand his traditions and history, not write it all off as superstition. This is the way ahead. The whole world comes to India because we are the only culture that continuos an ancient tradition that has died off everywhere in Ancient Egypt and Babylon, among the Greeks and Romans etc. If Fritz Stahl did not go to Kerala and study the living Brahmin tradition, the west would never have uncovered their own Pagan revival with the knowledge of yagna bringing life to Kabbalistic, Druid, and Runic western mysteries. Some mysteries need to be unlocked.

Click to expand...

It is not only the duty of brahmins, but the duty of all human beings to understand their tradition, history and to learn to remove the bad traditions and follow good traditions.Most important than following tradition,he should set a good tradition for future generations to follow.

Shanti Brahm said:

The Dinosaur way is to not study deeply and gain understanding. The Dinosaur had the brain size of a walnut and could not grasp the concept of climate change that we humans today are only beginning to understand. We will bring many traditional Brahmins to the west to start agraharam communities here so that many scientists can study this spiritual energy. Crossing the sea is not against Brahminism as it is actually recommended to Brahmins in Taitreya Brahmana which is scripture and supersedes any Smitri (non-scripture) you try to quote.

Click to expand...

I am not trying to quote any scripture.But I know that the generation which refused to travel across occean for the past thousands of years did so because they believed that scriptures prevent people from travelling across occeans.The current generation wants to travel across occean because, it beleives that scriptures actually recommend people to travel across occeans.:thumb:

One of you is certainly wrong according to scriptures ,but I dont care to find out who that is.But one of you is certainly wrong according to logic and rational thinking, and I believe that it's the previous generation.Refusing to travel across occeans is utter stupidity.So I do enocurage you all to travel across occeans,not because scriptues say so, but because common sense says so.

But my happiness vanished after I read your reasons.You want to set up agraharams in west so that westeners can study spiritual energy.First ofall except some professors in departments of culture, anthropology and occoult studies very few are interested in such research.So I am afraid that not many takers are there for studying spiritual energy.And next it is impossible to set up agraharams in west.Here anybody can buy a house anywhere and hence you might find many african americans, whites, hispanics,jews, hyderabadis(they are everywhere and mcdonalds' , steakhouses and burgerkings in the western agraharms

And I am afraid that following agraharams, slums,vellalar kudiyiruppus all will come to west.But it might be a good idea to punish west by exporting casteism,our foreign affairs ministry should defenitely consider it.:thumb:

Shanti Brahm said:

I think you mix up association with untouchability. If you have a son in college, do you wish him to associate with the ones who do drugs, like to drink too much, smoke cigarretes and ganja, look at pornography, etc... or would you like him to associate with people who have clean habits, are studious, believe in fair play, and hold friendship above success? This second group will make your son a Rama while the first will make him a Ravana.

Click to expand...

Agreed.In this case I will advise him as "mix with good people and not with bad people"

This is not equal to "mix only with brahmins and not with lower castes"

Do you see the difference between both statements?

Good people can come from any caste.So any father will say "mix equally with good people from all castes and avoid bad people from all castes".

Do you agree on this point?

Shanti Brahm said:

Untouchability and Sex

If you really respect a woman you will not touch her. A woman has a right as to who she allows to touch her and who she doesn't allow to touch her. It does not mean that she looks down on men.

Click to expand...

You are misinformed madam.Nobody is asking that dalit men should have the rights to touch uppercaste women,thats a total misunderstanding of the point.

To cite an example If a woman says "Among my friends only brahmin girls can touch me.dalit girl friends of mine should not touch me" that is untouchability.

If a woman says "In this bus only a brahmin woman can sit next to me and not any other caste women" thats untouchability.

If a woman says "no dalit man should touch me" that will be really hilarious. It's understood that no man shall touch a woman without her permission irrespective of his or her caste.

Nobody argues that all men should have the right to touch all women.Thats a total misunderstanding of the issue in hand.

Shanti Brahm said:

The Right of Individuals

Any individual has a right to live according to what they wish and that right should be extended to Brahmins.

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Nobody has the right to live as they wish. People have to live according to the law and not according to their wishes and whims and fancies.

Shanti Brahm said:

There is no hate. Only respect. I respect them for their choices. Let all people be free to live as they choose.

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Let people live as they choose,while obeying the law.I hope that you would agree that people can live freely as long as they obey the law.Untouchability is legally a crime and people who practice it automatically become law breakers.People cannot be permitted to break the law,can they?

Shanti Brahm said:

Brahminism is the true light of Hinduism. One does not need varna system to exist to preserve Brahmanism. All one needs is to preserve the bloodlines of the Brahmins. The only way to end Brahminism is genocide and now that Brahmins are scattered all over the world, that notion is impossible.

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Do you really think that bhramanism can only be ended through genocide?Can it not be ended through cultivating a rational thinking brain among the proponents of varnashrama?All we need is to open the eyes of people about the evils of caste system and spread a message of love and compassion.

Preserving bloodline?What is there to preserve in blood?What comes by blood?All men came from monkeys and its some ancient monkeys' bloodline which runs through all of us.

Shanti Brahm said:

Any Brahmin son who is decendent of one of the gotras associated with the Rishis who are associated with the stars of the Great Bear constellation can re-awaken his Brahma Tejas by doing Sandhyavandanam for one month. If the fire cannot exist in public, it will continue to exist in secret under the cloak of secret societies (as groups in the past have done in the west when oppressed by the Church.)

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People can believe in anything they want.If anybody believes that he can awaken the 'bhramma dejas' because of his ancestors,he deserves my pity and nothing more.

Nobody prevents the fire from existing in public.This is a free and democratic world.You are mistaken in this issue.People can live as they want as long as they respect the law.Nobody argues for compulsarily preventing people from reawakening their 'bhramma dejas by realizing the nobleness of their pure bloodline'.All that the law says is 'Dont discriminate, dont practice untouchability, let people who want to do love marriages freely do so, let people who want to do arranged marriages do so"-that's it. Reformers create awareness among people about usefulness of love marriages for destruction of caste system and demolition of varnashrama for the welfare of our nation. Thankfully society is changing nowadays.

Shanti Brahm said:

Brahmins are not equivelant to Mullahs. Brahmins do not give themselves that kind of power. Brahmins traditionally did not have military power or the power to run society, that was given to the Kshatriya. Brahmin did not have the wealth in Society, that was given to Vaisya. Brahmins don't declare themselves to be the only mediator between the gods and man. They have openly said in all ancient literature that anyone can be mediator. Brahmins simply carry a torch. They carry the ancient vibrational power of ancient rishis and dutifully keep this homam alive through many centuries for the benefit of whoever wishes to have it.

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All brahmins are not equal to mullahs.There are millions of kind and noble brahmins.But among them some ultra-orthodox people still exist, who are worse than any jihadi mullah.Their religious fanatacism and casteist mindset will match that of any lunatic crusader's or jihadi talibanistic mullah's mindset.

Hitler argued about the purity of aryan bloodline over other barbarian races.He ruined an entire generation of europe.Think about the hundreds of generations which were ruined in India due to varnashrama?

fire · Jan 26, 2007

some thoughts on this

First of all , I strongly believe that discrimination can be done away entirely.I need to say that untouchability based on caste is almost nonexistent in city side and becoming less in village side also. Its not right.If anyone close to us insulting our friends , it wud be more embarrasing to us than him. But I guess by profession it exists ( I dont understand the logic to blame Vedas for everything. Are we (thousands of caste in this nation) starting discrimination by reading Vedas??? There is no fight in village side ending without calling caste name and bad words.Who taught it...There were severe discriminations on other parts of the world.Who is responsible for it....The start of varnashrama as far as i read was based on profession and it still exists. I dont know how many of us will invite trash collector into our home and give them coffee in India. I dont know how many of us (again Indians)will love a boy/girl to eradicate caste system which according to some destroyed India for thousand years.
I saw one Thirukkural in a previous post.Wud be gr8 if it was quoted correctly.

If there was no varnashram and no brahmins there were no one doing jobs like ppl mentioned? The blame shud be discrimination and discriminators...
I wnt to say it clearly that we cannot pay for the past.And I dont think Brahmins were the only discriminators.

And I dont think if its possible a person from Brahmin calling derogatory terms against a Dalit...I never saw like that...But in fights it can happen a OBC calling a Dalit like that and vise versa and others calling brahmins but not vise versa.Its a ground reality.If you stay in a village you can experience.

I strongly believe caste system existed because of ppl believing in that and caste exist bcaz ppl believe in that...If not let them bring a law to allow only intercaste marriages , give reservation only for them , field only such candidates. The caste arguement is just to justify the problems imposed on the community.
What comes by birth?->Is it proven that two guys from same environment wil giv same results if same tr8ment is given....I guess everyone has their individual capacity also (May I call it born talent or natural talent)..If any research disproves it i wil change this opinion.

The hatred against Kamal is not abt his individual preference.... One is about the way he takes the picture..It goes against our culture.Not only him all ppl he uses girls to make money can be called prostitutes...Bin laden is thousand times better than them..And he is with a group which propagates a deliberate lies against Brahmins and he also takes the stand.We hav to point out that and oppose as vehemently as others (DK fellows) do us.

Finally I want to say one thing. Progress(Materialistic) is not based on what u believe or practice. Whoever we are, whatever we earn ,whereven we live , We shud follow the morality. Veg, Not smoking, not using bad words and much more gud habits present in our society which we need to emulate.That is the basic. People move away from this is more vulnarable to do mistakes.Even I will say because of this kind of culture we have very less violence in our society.I dont think we are not competitive and some artificial hindrances imposed by selfish ppl we can overcome.Dont practise if u dont believe it. Whats important for life?? A happy,satisfactory life.I strongly believe we hav more gud practises for that.Brahmins are as progressive as any other Indian community.There needs to be no doubt about it.

About breaking laws ,MPs will do it many times;MLAs will do it;Ministers will do it; Politicians will do it;Police will do it;Rowdies will do it.It is totally allowed in Indian constitution.

goundamani · Jan 26, 2007

fire said:
First of all , I strongly believe that discrimination can be done away entirely.I need to say that untouchability based on caste is almost nonexistent in city side and becoming less in village side also.

I am afraid that casteism hasnt disappeared in cities. Untouchability has gone down considerably in cities, but in villages it still persists.

fire said:
Its not right.If anyone close to us insulting our friends , it wud be more embarrasing to us than him. But I guess by profession it exists ( I dont understand the logic to blame Vedas for everything. Are we (thousands of caste in this nation) starting discrimination by reading Vedas??? There is no fight in village side ending without calling caste name and bad words.Who taught it...

In the past people who discriminated on caste basis, did so by quoting vedas and scriptures. If the current generation argues that they were wrong,then it's fine by me.

fire said:
There were severe discriminations on other parts of the world.Who is responsible for it....

No religions except hinduism imposed so succesfully certain menial jobs on certain castes and certain good jobs on other castes. It's true that christians of the past quoted Bible to burn witches and muslims of the past quoted quaran to kill and rape kaffirs and hindus of the past quoted vedas to discriminate.

fire said:
The start of varnashrama as far as i read was based on profession and it still exists. I dont know how many of us will invite trash collector into our home and give them coffee in India. I dont know how many of us (again Indians)will love a boy/girl to eradicate caste system which according to some destroyed India for thousand years.

If a trash collector's son comes to our house as our son's friend, will we give him coffee or not?

People need not love others just for the sake of eradicating caste system. All we need is not to stop people who love each other citing caste as a reason.:thumb: If we do so, caste will disappear soon.

fire said:
If there was no varnashram and no brahmins there were no one doing jobs like ppl mentioned? The blame shud be discrimination and discriminators...
I wnt to say it clearly that we cannot pay for the past.And I dont think Brahmins were the only discriminators.

I dint say brahmins are the only discriminators.ALL the FC's and OBC's of the past were discriminators.

fire said:
And I dont think if its possible a person from Brahmin calling derogatory terms against a Dalit...I never saw like that...But in fights it can happen a OBC calling a Dalit like that and vise versa and others calling brahmins but not vise versa.Its a ground reality.If you stay in a village you can experience.

In villages nobody will call a dalit as "Mr.kandan". All will call him as "dey sakkili". This includes all FC's and OBC's.

fire said:
I strongly believe caste system existed because of ppl believing in that and caste exist bcaz ppl believe in that...If not let them bring a law to allow only intercaste marriages , give reservation only for them , field only such candidates.

Nobody argues for such laws.

People only request for change of mind.

fire said:
What comes by birth?->Is it proven that two guys from same environment wil giv same results if same tr8ment is given....I guess everyone has their individual capacity also (May I call it born talent or natural talent)..If any research disproves it i wil change this opinion.

Born talent?There is nothing like that..

Havent you heard about the adage "vathiyar pillai makku?" and "police payan thirudan?"

Millions and millions of downtrodden people whose ancestors had no skills became great men.Nothing comes from caste.Shiv nadar, owner of HCL was a dalit.

Nobody possesses any born talent.That's totally wrong.

fire said:
The hatred against Kamal is not abt his individual preference.... One is about the way he takes the picture..It goes against our culture.Not only him all ppl he uses girls to make money can be called prostitutes...Bin laden is thousand times better than them..And he is with a group which propagates a deliberate lies against Brahmins and he also takes the stand.We hav to point out that and oppose as vehemently as others (DK fellows) do us.

Going against culture? That's acceptable. Nobody can force somebody to follow a culture.People can follow the culture of their choice. kamal certainly did not like the idea of becoming a priest for a salary of 600 rs.He wanted to become an artist. Nobody can say that sex is wrong in art. That is a morally puristic argument,which doesnt go well with art. All literature, poems, dramas, paintings, books and epics have sex in them.we cant say it is wrong.

Actresses are not prostitutes.They do a decent profession. It's a mistake to label working women in an entire field as prostitutes.

Kamal did not join DK. He only said that he became an atheist. What is wrong in it? He hasnt involved himself in politics.

fire said:
Finally I want to say one thing. Progress(Materialistic) is not based on what u believe or practice. Whoever we are, whatever we earn ,whereven we live , We shud follow the morality. Veg, Not smoking, not using bad words and much more gud habits present in our society which we need to emulate.That is the basic. People move away from this is more vulnarable to do mistakes.

Hinduism doesnt preach vegetarianism.You are mistaken on this.Further what hinduism says is immaterial here.Food , Smoking and drinking etc are a man's personal choice. Nobody has the right to impose these things on another man. Bad words..I agree because by law you can't use badwords on a stranger. But people can certainly use it among their friends' circle.

fire said:
About breaking laws ,MPs will do it many times;MLAs will do it;Ministers will do it; Politicians will do it;Police will do it;Rowdies will do it.It is totally allowed in Indian constitution.

That's why people call rowdies as rowdies and politicians as theifs and thugs.Politicians get defeated and cursed, rowdies get jailed and killed.

They are not the right examples to emulate. All communities and people should abide the law of the land.

mrifan · Jan 26, 2007

Talent

It is very comforting to fall into the trap of believing that all humans are talented, everyone has the same capabilities etc. While the environment does have something to do with nurturing talent, inborn aptitude also plays a significant role. No matter how hard I try and stress my mind, I can never become an Einstein, Gauss, Ramanujam or <insert name here>. Even after 50 years, I still cannot understand their theories, let alone try to develop anything like that, and I would like to consider myself as not being stupid. Am I sad about this? Yes, a little. Do I resent them? No! But at least with whatever I have I will try my best to meet my own potential.

Communists believe in interchangeable human beings, with a stultifying order that essentially divides humans into worker bees in pre-determined societal categories. If that was really true, life on earth would not have progressed beyond amoeba or specialized. Specialization and selection of mates is the very basis of evolution. If albinos had not chosen other albinos as mates long ago, whites would not exist today, because the recessive gene would not have been expressed.

I have noticed a great fear in some people to even acknowledge the fact that differences in talent can exist among people. The very mention seems to evoke a primal backlash as if some inner mental security cordon has been breached. It puzzles me greatly, some things seem so clear to me, and yet so different for others. In IIT there was a guy who would be able to derive proofs for geometry theorems just by looking at them, while I would struggle mightily. When I asked him how he did it, he was very puzzled and confused. He would say, "But it is right in front of you, how come you don't see it right away?" He was from a poor Bihari Brahman family, and was a humble and soft-spoken in nature. I may not be very talented myself, but I know it when I see it, and I don't build imaginary walls against the truth in my mind.

goundamani · Jan 26, 2007

mrifan said:
It is very comforting to fall into the trap of believing that all humans are talented, everyone has the same capabilities etc.

Nobody says that.

mrifan said:
While the environment does have something to do with nurturing talent, inborn aptitude also plays a significant role.

Not a scientifically verified statement.Even if it's true, nobody has proved that such inborn aptitude comes by caste.

mrifan said:
No matter how hard I try and stress my mind, I can never become an Einstein, Gauss, Ramanujam or <insert name here>. Even after 50 years, I still cannot understand their theories, let alone try to develop anything like that, and I would like to consider myself as not being stupid. Am I sad about this? Yes, a little. Do I resent them? No! But at least with whatever I have I will try my best to meet my own potential.

Einstein, Ramanujam and gauss succeeded because of their hardwork, not because of their birth. People who succeed do so by hardwork and not by their birth. Einstein did not succeed because he was a jew or ramanujan did not succeed because he was a brahmin.Nowadays they teach these theories in schools and colleges and most of the students seem to have no problem in understanding them.

mrifan said:
Communists believe in interchangeable human beings, with a stultifying order that essentially divides humans into worker bees in pre-determined societal categories. If that was really true, life on earth would not have progressed beyond amoeba or specialized. Specialization and selection of mates is the very basis of evolution. If albinos had not chosen other albinos as mates long ago, whites would not exist today, because the recessive gene would not have been expressed.

Communism is rowdiyism and vandalism.It's a dead horse.

mrifan said:
I have noticed a great fear in some people to even acknowledge the fact that differences in talent can exist among people. The very mention seems to evoke a primal backlash as if some inner mental security cordon has been breached. It puzzles me greatly, some things seem so clear to me, and yet so different for others.

People acknolwedge that talents differ among individuals. But they do not acknolwedge sweeping generalizations like "Most of individuals born in XYZ community are geniuses and intelligents. It's because of their inborn nature" & "Most of individuals born in ABC community are not talented. It's because of their inborn nature"

mrifan said:
In IIT there was a guy who would be able to derive proofs for geometry theorems just by looking at them, while I would struggle mightily. When I asked him how he did it, he was very puzzled and confused. He would say, "But it is right in front of you, how come you don't see it right away?" He was from a poor Bihari Brahman family, and was a humble and soft-spoken in nature. I may not be very talented myself, but I know it when I see it, and I don't build imaginary walls against the truth in my mind.

Was he able to solve the geomentry theorums because he was intelligent enough to join IIT or because he was a bihari brahmin?Or did he become intelligent enough to join IIT, because he was a bihari brahmin?

mrifan · Jan 26, 2007

Mental prison

The problem with making a statement like Einstein, Gauss etc became what they are due to "hard work" is quite laughable. Donkeys work harder than humans, so by now they should have been super-beings

I sometimes feel sad people make statements on the World Wide Web even in this day and age being blissfully ignorant of the facts. Nowadays with google and wikipedia around, it really does not take much effort to get educated at least a little about facts, and is just simply inexcusable.

Einstein was a slouch at school, and he discovered the theorem of special relativity when he was 21. Gauss discovered many mathematical theorems even when he was a teen. No donkeys here. Applying farmer and laborer analogies simply does not work. I am apalled at the callousness of inferring such a prosaic relationship to their seminal work. If as people say Indian school children find Einstein's work so easy to understand, then why do most of the Nobel prize winning physicists still admit they cannot fully understand it? Maybe there are truly different paralle universes after all! It is one thing for some schoolboy to parrot E=mc^2, but quite another to really understand what it means in terms of the basic structure of the universe. But I fear if schoolboy understanding is all that I am asked to relate to, then there is really nothing worth talking about. It would be like trying to explain the color red to a blind person. The blind person of course will still try to relate it to some form he can comprehend, but the very premise of the explanation is fatally flawed.

I cannot say only people of some castes are talented. But boy am I glad I am a Tambram!

goundamani · Jan 26, 2007

mrifan said:
The problem with making a statement like Einstein, Gauss etc became what they are due to "hard work" is quite laughable. Donkeys work harder than humans, so by now they should have been super-beings

Donkeys work hard in carrying weights.Thus they are indeed skilled in that field and it is very difficult for any man to compete with a donkey in carrying weights across long distances.Ensitein worked hard in maths and donkey worked hard in carrying weights .Both of them reaped the fruits of their hard work.

mrifan said:
Einstein was a slouch at school, and he discovered the theorem of special relativity when he was 21. Gauss discovered many mathematical theorems even when he was a teen. No donkeys here. Applying farmer and laborer analogies simply does not work. I am apalled at the callousness of inferring such a prosaic relationship to their seminal work.

They found out what they found because of their hardwork.Einstein did indeed work hard to find out theory of relativity.Same with Gauss.The theorum did not jump from thin air to einstein or gauss.Whether one is 14 or 21 hardly matters here.

mrifan said:
If as people say Indian school children find Einstein's work so easy to understand, then why do most of the Nobel prize winning physicists still admit they cannot fully understand it?

Kid: "I won first prize in 100 meters race in my school.So I am good at running"

Parent: "Let us see.The world record for 100 meters running is 8.69 seconds.Did you beat that record?"

Kid : 'No..but.."

Parent: "No if's and buts, since you dint break the world record, you are not a good runner"

mrifan said:
I cannot say only people of some castes are talented. But boy am I glad I am a Tambram!

Wow.. congrats.

fire · Jan 27, 2007

goundamani said:
I am afraid that casteism hasnt disappeared in cities. Untouchability has gone down considerably in cities, but in villages it still persists.

I guess there is no much difference in 'Almost nonexistent' and ' hanst disappeard in city.But gone considerably' .What I said was in village side also it is becoming less...I dont know if u approves it or disapproves it from ur statement.Does it persist more now or less compared to the past?

In the past people who discriminated on caste basis, did so by quoting vedas and scriptures. If the current generation argues that they were wrong,then it's fine by me.

I dont know much about Vedas and scriptures...I really dont know how many castes they created and allocated or imposed a particular job on them . Are todays thousands of all castes created by Vedas?I guess people wont ask for concrete proofs for this kind of issues. Anybody can talk about any thing on this issue.Even Vedas & scriptures do so , why not ignore the bad portion and takes what is relevant today?Discriminations , whereever it may be in India or anywhere else is totally unjustifiable .

No religions except hinduism imposed so succesfully certain menial jobs on certain castes and certain good jobs on other castes. It's true that christians of the past quoted Bible to burn witches and muslims of the past quoted quaran to kill and rape kaffirs and hindus of the past quoted vedas to discriminate.

Again it wud be better if giv the list of job-caste pairs .Again I say, its not practical to follow system if people dont believe it or follow it.

If a trash collector's son comes to our house as our son's friend, will we give him coffee or not?

People need not love others just for the sake of eradicating caste system. All we need is not to stop people who love each other citing caste as a reason.:thumb: If we do so, caste will disappear soon.

I guess you agree with me that many of us will discriminate a person based on a job ... So differences on basis of job (or based on varnashrama) exists....I guess thats one with the caste u want to eradicate.Yes we will give coffee to a boy irrespective of his father's job....Will we give our girl to him??? Not stopping others is a too slow and we can never ensure caste system will get eradicated....Can you say soon will it get eradicated...Thats why I say if u want to kill caste make reservations only to ppl who do intercaste marriages.

I dint say brahmins are the only discriminators.ALL the FC's and OBC's of the past were discriminators.

Fine. I guess 'All' is not a suitable word for any social related arguments. Dont we have Dalit discriminators? One caste discriminating another caste guy...

In villages nobody will call a dalit as "Mr.kandan". All will call him as "dey sakkili". This includes all FC's and OBC's.

All Dalits are called( i guess addressed) by all other people by "dei sakkili" in villages...Please name the villages that happens...Not even a single good person lives thr??? I guess that should be the headlines of all newspapers.What I experienced was they are rebellious esp the youth and against any discriminations to them and they are united also (Note we are not so united and oppose the insult made on public stages).

Nobody argues for such laws.

People only request for change of mind.

Nobody will argue that law....Because many believe in their caste system.Many speak like Brahmins are casteist and other people are not casteist.Existence of caste system proves need for reservation because brahmin discriminating others. If that so y not all do intercaste marriages.many people are willing to maintain the caste identity and do marriage within their caste.It holds good for many communities including Dalits.

Born talent?There is nothing like that..

Havent you heard about the adage "vathiyar pillai makku?" and "police payan thirudan?"

Millions and millions of downtrodden people whose ancestors had no skills became great men.Nothing comes from caste.Shiv nadar, owner of HCL was a dalit.

Nobody possesses any born talent.That's totally wrong.

Even I thought 'by birth' might be interpreted as 'by caste' and thought of adding a warning..Then I changed the mind that people wud understand correctly.I guess what i can call instinct or the natural talent. I still believe same treatments to 'n' number of people cannot produce same result for all.Again I will go against the oldage as many children of teachers are doing brilliant in studies. "Shiv Nadar was a dalit"......U mean to say Nadars were dalits or He doesnt belong to Nadar community....This is the first thing I heard this.

Going against culture? That's acceptable. Nobody can force somebody to follow a culture.People can follow the culture of their choice. kamal certainly did not like the idea of becoming a priest for a salary of 600 rs.He wanted to become an artist. Nobody can say that sex is wrong in art. That is a morally puristic argument,which doesnt go well with art. All literature, poems, dramas, paintings, books and epics have sex in them.we cant say it is wrong.

Yes ...We cannot force anyone to follow a culture...But if one does what I believe is wrong I can certainly speak against him or his activities. we have sex in Literature,poems,dramas,paintings ,books and epics....Then why youngsters are going one to cinemas...Y stupid govt is banning some TV channels...Y there are raids on hotel and all.

Actresses are not prostitutes.They do a decent profession. It's a mistake to label working women in an entire field as prostitutes.

Does it hold for porno industry also? If It is mistake i will love to do the mistake. There are many people who want to lead a cultured life in India.People are doing day and night hard work ; People are going for fields;cleaning vessels ;construction works......They believe in labour not in glamour. People can believe their brains or their hardwork.I didnt make a sweeping stmt or single out a industry.If one uses abscene photos to promote his journal what is he doing...I wil lead many youngsters to a wrong path. Actresses will live safely.People have to fear if they send out their children out.Even in city buses there are many rowdies misbehaving with women.Its just a sample. There are so many repercursions if one has got bad thoughts on seeing movies...Its hypothetical people like them coming to AIDS awareness prgms.I dont think actresses are selected only based on acting.

Kamal did not join DK. He only said that he became an atheist. What is wrong in it? He hasnt involved himself in politics.
There is nothing wrong in it.....He says he is not involved in politics....He participated in meetings attended by antibrahmin leaders and tastes what they say and makes political statements. If that seems lie to us we are certainly opposing....When people Who knows not to retaliat are brutally targetted by DK gangs, when Matts and temples were targetted after the installation of EVR statue infront of a temple just to create social unrest (What other logic u can give) who called to kill brahmins and opposed Hinduism, this guy participates in the controversial movie release prgm and accused only Hindus .He is a real world actor.

Hinduism doesnt preach vegetarianism.You are mistaken on this.Further what hinduism says is immaterial here.Food , Smoking and drinking etc are a man's personal choice. Nobody has the right to impose these things on another man. Bad words..I agree because by law you can't use badwords on a stranger. But people can certainly use it among their friends' circle.

I didnt speak of Hinduism here. I think most of the brahmins in the past had such gud habits and we need to learn it. THere is no imposition at all.I have the right to say what I believe is correct and I just do so.And ofcourse food is personal choice. Others also personal choice if not done at wrong place. But now a days many brahmins are eating nonveg and many nonbrahmin friends are taking only veg. Really interesting thing to see. But if I ask 'How many of u kill hens or slaughter a sheep on ur own and cook it' only a few says we wil do. Others will go to hotel.Is it because they just want the taste but not interested in killing them with their hands because of JeevaKarunya(Sympathy towards living beings)?

That's why people call rowdies as rowdies and politicians as theifs and thugs.Politicians get defeated and cursed, rowdies get jailed and killed.

They are not the right examples to emulate. All communities and people should abide the law of the land.

They are not right examples.But my point was conviction rate is too slow to get justice here and laws are vulnerable for misuse by politicians.

goundamani · Jan 27, 2007

fire said:
I guess there is no much difference in 'Almost nonexistent' and ' hanst disappeard in city.But gone considerably' .What I said was in village side also it is becoming less...I dont know if u approves it or disapproves it from ur statement.Does it persist more now or less compared to the past?

Let us see..

What is the caste of barbers in towns?What is the caste of people who stitch chappels in town?What is the caste of people who clean government toilets and streets and ditches in metros?What is the caste of people who do poojas in temples in big towns?

I guess nothing much changed in these aspects.When we hear the names of these professions, 9 out of 10 times we can correctly guess the person's caste.But in professions like engineer, programmer,auditor, doctor , lawyer there is a marked difference.There is a change in this aspect alone.

fire said:
I dont know much about Vedas and scriptures...I really dont know how many castes they created and allocated or imposed a particular job on them . Are todays thousands of all castes created by Vedas?I guess people wont ask for concrete proofs for this kind of issues. Anybody can talk about any thing on this issue.Even Vedas & scriptures do so , why not ignore the bad portion and takes what is relevant today?Discriminations , whereever it may be in India or anywhere else is totally unjustifiable .

Vedas created 4 varnas.Jathis then were created by people based on varnas. For example vedas created ksathriiya class and devar and vanniyar castes then were created by ksathriyas. Jathis can be traced back to varnas and varnas to vedas.

fire said:
Again it wud be better if give the list of job-caste pairs ..

I cannot give the names of hundreds of thousands of castes along with their jobs.Can only give some examples.

Vannar - washing
Navithar - barber
aiyyar- priest.

Now dont argue that vedas never created aiyyars and vannars.Vedas created brahmins and sudhras. Aiyars are brahmins and vannars are sudhra.

fire said:

Again I say, its not practical to follow system if people dont believe it or follow it.

Click to expand...

Ok. Then let us assume that vannars willingly took up washing and rest of hindus went and begged them to become doctors and engineers, but vannars refused it and said that they will do no job except washing clothes and they are unwilling to become doctors and engineers.

fire said:
I guess you agree with me that many of us will discriminate a person based on a job ... So differences on basis of job (or based on varnashrama) exists....I guess thats one with the caste u want to eradicate.

That's not what i said. I am not talking about discriminating people based on job.Discrimination means unfair treatment.No..no way.

If a trash collector comes to our house, I dont see any reason why he shouldnt be given coffee or even the daughter of the house in marriage. I gave the example of the trash collectors son because I thought it simplifies matters, but now you have understood it as job based discrimination. So let me clarify, i dont see any reason why a trash collector should not be given coffee or daughter in marriage.

Let me give an example.senthil collects trash.He earns around 100 to 150 rs per day by collecting trash.He and a girl fall in love with each other.Senthil goes to her house to ask her hand.senthil's character and family are good.

In this case I would say that it is fair and ideal that senthil should be given both coffee and the girl.(Girl's family, income, caste, status doesnt matter here)

fire said:
Yes we will give coffee to a boy irrespective of his father's job....Will we give our girl to him?

Why not?

fire said:
Not stopping others is a too slow and we can never ensure caste system will get eradicated....Can you say soon will it get eradicated...Thats why I say if u want to kill caste make reservations only to ppl who do intercaste marriages

If we actually say "100% jobs and college seats are reserved for people who do intercaste marriages", within 1 year castes will disappear.

Thats a great idea.

fire said:
Fine. I guess 'All' is not a suitable word for any social related arguments. Dont we have Dalit discriminators? One caste discriminating another caste guy...

dalits do discriminate other dalits.For example a barber will consider himself to be higher than a toilet cleaner.

fire said:
All Dalits are called( i guess addressed) by all other people by "dei sakkili" in villages...Please name the villages that happens...Not even a single good person lives thr??? I guess that should be the headlines of all newspapers.
What I experienced was they are rebellious esp the youth and against any discriminations to them and they are united also (Note we are not so united and oppose the insult made on public stages).

In many villages dalits are still not allowed to walk in streets and are even abused by upper caste kids.There are numerous villages which follow this practice.I cannot name all villages.If you want an example I can cite melavalavu in madurai.Many dalits were killed by villagers and a committee headed by sugumaran went there and found that dalits are treated like dogs in melavalavu and sorrounding villages.

fire said:

Nobody will argue that law....Because many believe in their caste system.Many speak like Brahmins are casteist and other people are not casteist.Existence of caste system proves need for reservation because brahmin discriminating others. If that so y not all do intercaste marriages.many people are willing to maintain the caste identity and do marriage within their caste.It holds good for many communities including Dalits.

Click to expand...

casteism exists at all levels and at all communities.I never said only brahmins are casteist.

fire said:

Even I thought 'by birth' might be interpreted as 'by caste' and thought of adding a warning..Then I changed the mind that people wud understand correctly.I guess what i can call instinct or the natural talent. I still believe same treatments to 'n' number of people cannot produce same result for all.Again I will go against the oldage as many children of teachers are doing brilliant in studies. "Shiv Nadar was a dalit"......U mean to say Nadars were dalits or He doesnt belong to Nadar community....This is the first thing I heard this.

Click to expand...

Same treatment to n number of people doesnt produce same results.Nobody argued like that.Talents differs from individual to individual .That is not because of his caste or 'birth'.Its because of environment.

Nadars are dalits.They were called as sanars earlier,but they came up very quickly and became rich in recent decades.

fire said:

Yes ...We cannot force anyone to follow a culture...But if one does what I believe is wrong I can certainly speak against him or his activities. we have sex in Literature,poems,dramas,paintings ,books and epics....Then why youngsters are going one to cinemas...Y stupid govt is banning some TV channels...Y there are raids on hotel and all.

Click to expand...

You yourself said govt is stupid to ban TV channels.I dont believe in censoring tv channels.As far as hotels are concerned, currently prostitution is illegal in india.So they have raids.In west in many countries prostitution isnt illegal.There are no raids there.In vedic india, prostitution was legal and there were no raids.People were much more tolerant in those days.(BTW, kamal movies certainly arent illegal)

fire said:

Does it hold for porno industry also? If It is mistake i will love to do the mistake.

Click to expand...

Porn industry is legal in many countries. It is regulated , monitored and accepted as a profession.Even in india, before british, devadasis and prostitutes were tolerated by society.many of them were reputed dancers.

fire said:

There are many people who want to lead a cultured life in India.People are doing day and night hard work ; People are going for fields;cleaning vessels ;construction works......They believe in labour not in glamour.

Click to expand...

These people are outnumbered by a vast majority who go to movies, watch glamorous actors and actresses and dance for a 'dappanguthu' song.

fire said:

If one uses abscene photos to promote his journal what is he doing...I wil lead many youngsters to a wrong path. Actresses will live safely.People have to fear if they send out their children out.

Click to expand...

I would say that todays youth are are far more educated,progressive and successful than the previous generation.They love to have fun and enjoy their life too, whats wrong in it?

fire said:

Even in city buses there are many rowdies misbehaving with women.Its just a sample. There are so many repercursions if one has got bad thoughts on seeing movies...Its hypothetical people like them coming to AIDS awareness prgms.

Click to expand...

Rowdies exist from time immemorial.AIDS can be prevented by sex education.

fire said:

I dont think actresses are selected only based on acting.

Click to expand...

Only in india.Not in west.

kudumi · Jan 27, 2007

Reverse untouchability.

"Ok. Then let us assume that vannars willingly took up washing and rest of hindus went and begged them to become doctors and engineers, but vannars refused it and said that they will do no job except washing clothes and they are unwilling to become doctors and engineers."

No assumptions. Nobody is preventing anybody from becoming a doctor or an engineer. But the current quota system is to prevent Brahmins from becoming a doctor or engineer. How else do you explain the fact that only 31% of the seat is available for us to think about.Victims of the quota system will know this reality. If this is not discriminatory or untouchability practiced by the elected government, what else is it?

"Let us see..

What is the caste of barbers in towns?What is the caste of people who stitch chappels in town?What is the caste of people who clean government toilets and streets and ditches in metros?What is the caste of people who do poojas in temples in big towns?"

In Sulabh international toilets brahmins also clean toilets. In Onyx Kuppa lorries, not only one particular caste people work.

"I cannot give the names of hundreds of thousands of castes along with their jobs.Can only give some examples.

Vannar - washing
Navithar - barber
aiyyar- priest."

wrong.
Vannar- preferred engineer
Navithar-preferred doctor
aiyyar-kick him out of everything.

"If we actually say "100% jobs and college seats are reserved for people who do intercaste marriages", within 1 year castes will disappear.

Thats a great idea."

No totally wrong and a stupid idea. That will create "intercaste caste". Why should someone prevent me from marrying a girl of my choice, and if an iyer girl arranged by my parents is my choice, where is it hurting anybody? Where is my freedom to marry a partner of my choice? Why force someone?Why cant my kid study because, I married someone from my own caste? Only stupid politicians of India can comeup with such stupid idea.
The best way to make caste disapper is to bring in compulsary education for everybody. Imposing strict metrics on the utilisation of manpower and economic prosperity for all citizens.

"In many villages dalits are still not allowed to walk in streets and are even abused by upper caste kids.There are numerous villages which follow this practice.I cannot name all villages.If you want an example I can cite melavalavu in madurai.Many dalits were killed by villagers and a committee headed by sugumaran went there and found that dalits are treated like dogs in melavalavu and sorrounding villages."

Take it up in a different forum or write to "politician caste" for this. You speak as though brahmins are only doing this. I can quote thousands of brahmin examples who were denied a fair access to many college seats and jobs starting with myself and my family members. The agonies and sufferrings of my cousin is simply beyond any words-wish karma theory was real and whomsoever is responsible for this suffers like she did. I was a mature individual and when one door was closed, I took the other door. But not the case with one of my cousins.

"Same treatment to n number of people doesnt produce same results.Nobody argued like that.Talents differs from individual to individual .That is not because of his caste or 'birth'.Its because of environment"

An individual's potential is fixed at birth. Utilisation of the potential may or may not be based on the environment. Geniuses like Ramanujam, Eini are always an exeption.

No comments on the actresses, porn and raid portions as I find it unworthy to discuss and a distraction from the main points.

mrifan · Jan 28, 2007

Dravida agenda and the Brahmana women

Folks all I can say is this. The Dravida agenda in essence comes down to this, a grab for Brahmana women. They know that only small battles can be won against the Brahmanas by quotas and rowdyism like the recent violence in Chennai and Salem etc. They are equally aware that the war will be won when Brahmanas can be forced to abandon all their values and culture. Most of the rowdies harassing women in Chennai and other places in TN are not Brahmanas. This rowdyism and public molestation of women started after the "rationalists" came to power. This is a sign of things to come. Brahmana women are targeted, and people should watch over their unmarried daughters and not allow strangers into the house.

I think every Brahmana should be very clear on this, and should not fall prey to the insidious TN Dravidian propaganda that can come in the form of movies (like DMK Pakkiaraj's movies), "rational" sounding posts in forums advocating daughters be handed over to trash collectors etc, advocating free sexual mores (like our "Periyar"). Make no mistake, there should be no arguments, no rationalizations, no attempts at dialogue, no explanations etc. When it comes to the core issue, it is best to be extremely blunt and repel such propaganda with extreme prejudice. It will of course get worse if they realize that propaganda is not working, and the next escalation in terms of 100% reservations in govt/private job and education for "intercaste" people will be attempted. Rape does not have to be violent, coercion can take place through other means also. But the end goal is to covet and dominate Brahmana women and thus destroy Brahmanas.

I bet it is these kinds of arguments which allowed the "backward" champions like both Maran brothers and Chidambaran's son to secure Brahmana women for themselves. And then once the domination at home was complete, to use that as a base to next intensify the attacks against Brahmanas by demanding and fighting for targeted anti-Brahmana quotas at the central institutions also. Now that battle also seems to be won, and the preliminary skirmishes in terms of private sector and govt contract quotas is breaking out. Everyone needs to realize what they are up against. If they were so concerned about "upliftment" of the "backward" segment, then why didn't they help out a "backward" family by marrying into one? The goal is of course toward making sure Brahmana men are affected since they are more likely to be the breadwinners, and it provides the means for even more "backward" champions to then get access to Brahmana women. The other national "backward" champion, Ram Vilas Paswan, separated from his first wife from his community, and once he came into power married an upper-caste Punjabi lady. Of course this only intensified the battle to secure even more quotas everywhere.

People need to realize what is going on around them. Awareness is everything, it may not prevent battles from being won, but it rapidly escalates the cost of winning the war against Brahmanas for them.

goundamani · Jan 28, 2007

kudumi said:
"Ok. Then let us assume that vannars willingly took up washing and rest of hindus went and begged them to become doctors and engineers, but vannars refused it and said that they will do no job except washing clothes and they are unwilling to become doctors and engineers."

No assumptions. Nobody is preventing anybody from becoming a doctor or an engineer. But the current quota system is to prevent Brahmins from becoming a doctor or engineer. How else do you explain the fact that only 31% of the seat is available for us to think about.Victims of the quota system will know this reality. If this is not discriminatory or untouchability practiced by the elected government, what else is it?

Fire said that it is not possible for a system to exist without people's willingness to abide by it.For that I asked whether we can assume that vannars willingly undertook washing clothes and refused doctor and engineer jobs.

Fire defended the varnashrama system of the past and my answer was directed at varnashrama system of the past.I agree that atrocities of past have considerably come down.But still many dalits are left behind.

kudumi said:
In Sulabh international toilets brahmins also clean toilets. In Onyx Kuppa lorries, not only one particular caste people work.

Their percentage is very low. In India these jobs are done by the particular caste people in huge numbers.

kudumi said:
wrong.
Vannar- preferred engineer
Navithar-preferred doctor
aiyyar-kick him out of everything.

I am sorry that innocent brahmins of current day have to suffer like this.

kudumi said:
"If we actually say "100% jobs and college seats are reserved for people who do intercaste marriages", within 1 year castes will disappear.

Thats a great idea."

No totally wrong and a stupid idea. That will create "intercaste caste". Why should someone prevent me from marrying a girl of my choice, and if an iyer girl arranged by my parents is my choice, where is it hurting anybody? Where is my freedom to marry a partner of my choice? Why force someone?Why cant my kid study because, I married someone from my own caste? Only stupid politicians of India can comeup with such stupid idea.
The best way to make caste disapper is to bring in compulsary education for everybody. Imposing strict metrics on the utilisation of manpower and economic prosperity for all citizens.

Again that was not my idea.It was Mr.Fire who said that to eradicate castes reservations should be only extended for people who do intercaste marriages.I only suggested that if that idea has to work, the quota of reservations should be 100%. I am not recommending that solution actually.

kudumi said:
"In many villages dalits are still not allowed to walk in streets and are even abused by upper caste kids.There are numerous villages which follow this practice.I cannot name all villages.If you want an example I can cite melavalavu in madurai.Many dalits were killed by villagers and a committee headed by sugumaran went there and found that dalits are treated like dogs in melavalavu and sorrounding villages."

Take it up in a different forum or write to "politician caste" for this. You speak as though brahmins are only doing this. I can quote thousands of brahmin examples who were denied a fair access to many college seats and jobs starting with myself and my family members. The agonies and sufferrings of my cousin is simply beyond any words-wish karma theory was real and whomsoever is responsible for this suffers like she did. I was a mature individual and when one door was closed, I took the other door. But not the case with one of my cousins.

Mr.Fire asked me to give an example of a village where dalits are humiliated and I gave an example.I never said that brahmins are only doing this. In melavalavu, devars are in majority.In that same posting I have said that varnashrama exists even among dalits.

kudumi said:
An individual's potential is fixed at birth. Utilisation of the potential may or may not be based on the environment. Geniuses like Ramanujam, Eini are always an exeption.

Nobodys potential is fixed in birth.If people work hard, even sky is not the limit.

kudumi said:
No comments on the actresses, porn and raid portions as I find it unworthy to discuss and a distraction from the main points.

Those issues were not raised by me.Some people accused kamal of making porn films and I replied that it is not the case.

goundamani · Jan 28, 2007

mrifan said:
Brahmana women are targeted, and people should watch over their unmarried daughters and not allow strangers into the house.

Another conspiracy theory.:faint:

mrifan said:
I think every Brahmana should be very clear on this, and should not fall prey to the insidious TN Dravidian propaganda that can come in the form of movies (like DMK Pakkiaraj's movies), "rational" sounding posts in forums advocating daughters be handed over to trash collectors etc, advocating free sexual mores (like our "Periyar").

It was another gentleman who asked whether we will hand over our daughter's to trash collector.I asked if they love each other, then why not.Now this has been blown into a major conspiracy to marry all girls to trash collectors:wave:

It's not just brahmin women marrying people of other castes.MS subbulakhsmi was a dalit women who married a brahmin.Kamalhasaan married vani and then sarika.Love marriages are happening among both sexes of all castes.No such conspiracy is involved here.

mrifan said:
I bet it is these kinds of arguments which allowed the "backward" champions like both Maran brothers and Chidambaran's son to secure Brahmana women for themselves.

Nobody abducted these women. I dont know whether these are arranged or love marriages, but as far as I know they live happily.

Actor Surya married a muslim woman jothika, sundar c married a muslim woman kushboo, ajith married a christian woman shalini.I heard that sania mirza is in love with mahesh boopathi. Thankfully christians and muslims never raised a conspiracy theory here.

mrifan · Jan 28, 2007

Communist propaganda exposed

goundamani said:
It's not just brahmin women marrying people of other castes. MS subbulakhsmi was a dalit women who married a brahmin.

It is very widely known that MS was the daughter of Madurai Srinivasa Iyer. Her mother was Shanmugavadivu, a Veenai vidwan from the intermediate Vellalar caste. Dravidian politicians are very well known to use personal anecdotes and falsehood as communist propaganda to justify everything from quotas (without excluding affluent layer) to other anti-Brahmana acts. Feigning ignorance is hardly believable on the part of someone who is online, and the only explanation seems to be deliberate false propaganda.

Even a cursory check on google or wikipedia shows:

http://www.tamilnation.org/hundredtamils/mssubbulakshmi.htm
http://www.rmaf.org.ph/Awardees/Biography/BiographySubbulakshmiMon.htm

Ordinary people are free to marry whomever they like. However the conspiracy is exposed when politicians in power, some from parties specifically known to be anti-Brahmana and for "social justice", somehow prefer to marry the women from that community, instead of "social justice" communities, and then intensify their attacks against Brahmanas by agitating for more quotas for their caste *without excluding affluent layer* in jobs, education, govt contracts etc. It clearly brings out the fact that they are of course anti-Brahmana-men, but they sure covet Brahmana women! When exposed the truth will be cited as a conspiracy, but the truth in the end always comes out not withstanding the malicious propaganda.

Untouchability

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