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In the name of traditions

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Hi everyone . This is my first post here and I have some doubts or shall I say opinions which has been in my mind for a long time.

Firstly I'm confused with the notion of customs being imposed in the name of tradition. When you look at it logically customs were prescribed for the betterment of a society aka for the evolution of the society. In this sense it is strictly subjective. What is customs for one community is heresy for the other.But none of the customs were foolproof or static. Like everything in Hinduism customs evolved and this evolution happened because there fluidity in its practice and scope for improvement and transfer of knowledge from other communities.This being the case why is there a huge disapproval for heterodoxy in the present scenario? Isn't it part of the evolution process? By trying to freeze customs in time and opposing changes in the name of tradition aren't we forgetting about the objective of customs in the first place which is betterment of society as a whole.

Consider for eg, the practice of changing shoulders of our sacred thread when we are to attend nature's call. I remember reading it somewhere but certainly this is not being followed now. So how does it fall out of favor? Was it announced by any central authority on what to follow and what not to follow? certainly not and that's one of the uniqueness of Hinduism. This couldn't find place because the needs of today's society is different and was gradually phased out. There are also no central authority on what needs to be phased out and what shouldn't be discarded because the original law givers of our religion undestood the dynamic nature of the society and social order and so they didn't freeze it in time. That being so, why are we failing to understand the very essence of the interdependence between social needs and customs?

So my point is if we don't accommodate the social needs and encourage evolution (not revolution) the society will run away from customs and we would fail our ancestors in terms of the objective that they thought these customs would bring about for the society.

Would love to hear from fellow members.

Regards
Anand.
 
Hi everyone . This is my first post here and I have some doubts or shall I say opinions which has been in my mind for a long time.

Firstly I'm confused with the notion of customs being imposed in the name of tradition. When you look at it logically customs were prescribed for the betterment of a society aka for the evolution of the society. In this sense it is strictly subjective. What is customs for one community is heresy for the other.But none of the customs were foolproof or static. Like everything in Hinduism customs evolved and this evolution happened because there fluidity in its practice and scope for improvement and transfer of knowledge from other communities.This being the case why is there a huge disapproval for heterodoxy in the present scenario? Isn't it part of the evolution process?
By definition heterodoxy becomes an unacceptable matter. But, in Hinduism, there is no central authority (like the Pope for the Catholics) to decide on religious matters. So, changes do take place, unobtrusively and we have been seeing such transformations at all points of time.

By trying to freeze customs in time and opposing changes in the name of tradition aren't we forgetting about the objective of customs in the first place which is betterment of society as a whole.
While some people will like to have matters religious, in the way they had been accustomed to, and will vigorously uphold those, others may not follow. After some time these old voices will not be there and the new set will think that the religious people should be like them; they in their turn will vigorously voice their concern and try their best to keep matters at the point at which they want it to freeze, their generation will pass into time and the next will take its place. This is just like the "pazhutta ilai veezhvatum paccai ilai pazhuppatum".

For example, people of my grandfather's generation would not countenance removal of 'kudumi' by brahmins. My father did it after the demise of his father, I suppose, but he steadfastly held on to some items like "suddham", "pattu", "sEsham" etc. Now I may not be so strict as to these items but I may be strict about some other matters!

Consider for eg, the practice of changing shoulders of our sacred thread when we are to attend nature's call. I remember reading it somewhere but certainly this is not being followed now. So how does it fall out of favor? Was it announced by any central authority on what to follow and what not to follow? certainly not and that's one of the uniqueness of Hinduism. This couldn't find place because the needs of today's society is different and was gradually phased out. There are also no central authority on what needs to be phased out and what shouldn't be discarded because the original law givers of our religion undestood the dynamic nature of the society and social order and so they didn't freeze it in time. That being so, why are we failing to understand the very essence of the interdependence between social needs and customs?
The item you mention is still followed rigorously by some, while many who go to office in pants and shirt will find it impossible. So nobody is insisting on doing or not doing that.

So my point is if we don't accommodate the social needs and encourage evolution (not revolution) the society will run away from customs and we would fail our ancestors in terms of the objective that they thought these customs would bring about for the society.
As I explained above, changes are happening continually in the Hindu rites, thoughts and practices and will continue like that. Don't you feel and are you not convinced that this is happening? Of course, at all points of time the old generation will feel that there has been great erosion in values, religiousness etc. This sort of feeling , I am told, comes from the time of Socrates!
 
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Sangom,
Thanks for the reply and your 'ilai' analogy is very right. The point I want to make is tradition is being used for the wrong reasons. When ever a need for opposition arises tradition is conveniently being used as the excuse. And ppl still hold on to customs mainly because of the guilty feeling they experience when they go against the traditions even though they can be proved wrong in many ways.

"Don't you feel and are you not convinced that this is happening?"

Oh Yes I feel them but convinced? I'm not sure.I only hope ppl would be more welcome to changes keeping in mind the objective and the characteristics of customs and traditions.
 
Sangom,
Thanks for the reply and your 'ilai' analogy is very right. The point I want to make is tradition is being used for the wrong reasons. When ever a need for opposition arises tradition is conveniently being used as the excuse. And ppl still hold on to customs mainly because of the guilty feeling they experience when they go against the traditions even though they can be proved wrong in many ways.

English being what it is, foreign to us, the above is a bit confusing to me. When you say, "whenever a need for opposition arises" may mean that you also find the opposition justified; from the context, it can also mean that whenever someone wants to oppose some action or opinion given by some one else, (he does so citing tradition). If it is in respect of your personal matters and the opposition is from your elders, it will not be correct on my part to give a solution without getting the full particulars from either side. If, however, you are talking about matters outside your personal affairs, the only course you can follow is to try to convince the opposite side about the genuineness of your stand; in case you have the authority to override the opposition, take a decision as per your ideas and if you feel you will be able to implement it, then go ahead.
 
Dear Kiamzattu,

Your questions are very valid.

However, please note that traditions are not used as an excuse.

What prevails as popular consensus (for caste liberation and hence free-for-all vedam) is mainly drawn from the socio-political ideology without understanding a few base facts.

Not everyone has the ability level for everything.

Everyone cannot be everything based on desires alone. If life were like that, then all techies i know wud like to be Bill Gates. But just bcoz one desires so, can everyone bcome Bill Gates?

For the ability-level consensus to be made, the guru (in the past) was the best person to decide who becomes what (that is, a brahmana, warrior, trader, or other servile jobs). It is very hard to decide if truly things were birth-based alone in the past. There are so many versions of this, it is so hard to decide what really was the actual picture (imho, diff regions of india practiced diff types of varna models)...

Over the years, it is quite possible that the interest level of people to seek vedavidya decreased (i suppose this might have been the scenario since the islamic onslaughts). Hence, its very possible that people themselves did not approch a guru (on their own).

And today, we have so many jobs, so how many ppl are really interested in immersing themselves fully into a spiritual life? Ofcourse there are outliers, but extremely few. For the most part, it is still an identity-based ego-struggle or ideology-struggle for social image purpose.

Nevertheless, i remain confused how can one define varna based on occupations esp in today's times (like what wud you call a bank manager with excellent knowledge of the financial world with a postgraduate degree in physics who practices marital arts as a hobby, is a yoga freak who meditates everyday, is fluent in sanskrit and very well-versed in the shastras...can one call him a vaishya (finance knowledge), a kshatriya (martial arts hobby), a shudra (service industry occupation) or a brahmin (well versed in scriptures, etc)....

Regards.
PS: kiamzattu is a very unique username. i did a google search to see what's the meaning. Found no leads. If you don't mind, what does your username mean?
 
English being what it is, foreign to us, the above is a bit confusing to me. When you say, "whenever a need for opposition arises" may mean that you also find the opposition justified; from the context, it can also mean that whenever someone wants to oppose some action or opinion given by some one else, (he does so citing tradition).

I apologize for the confusion. What I meant was the latter case, there is opposition by citing tradition and the fact of the matter this opposition can be over looked but still one's heart isn't allowing. A classic case of conflict between mind and heart where the mind is craving with logical facts to sweep away the opposition and the heart isn't allowing it.

Consider for eg, the case of Sage Bharatwaja.He married a Kshatriya woman (anuloma Marriage). Now the popular opinion (in the present scenario) is if a Brahmin marries outside his caste then he can't perform certain rituals because tradition says so is what I get as answer when I ask why. Now in the case of Bharatwaja rishi, wouldn't this apply? if so then the 'alleged' descendants of him Viz the people belonging to Bharatwaja Gotra shouldn't have any rights to perform rituals.
No offence to ppl belonging to Bharatwaja Gotra, I myself being one. Just wanted to know certain things. Thats it.

As Happy Hindu pointed out one cannot define one's varna in the present day scenario. So how could a brahmin marrying outside of his caste be denied his rights when one of the Sapta Rishi himself married outside of his Varna.
---
"However, please note that traditions are not used as an excuse."

Yes it is Sir, and fierce opposition to Sa-Gotra marriage stands as a testimony to it even though the Gotra tree has extended into thousands of branches and its virtually impossible to trace it and find out if the boy and girl are really 'brothers' and 'sisters'.
I also saw some posts claiming scientific 'proof' for prohibiting Sa-Gotra marriages claiming the child wouldn't be healthy. Well Science clearly states it holds good only when first cousins marry and definitely not valid when it goes beyond fourth cousins. So that argument falls flat given the uncountable number of cousins since the time when Gotra was formally established.


PS: Kiamzattu is a jumble of my nick name :D
 
I apologize for the confusion. What I meant was the latter case, there is opposition by citing tradition and the fact of the matter this opposition can be over looked but still one's heart isn't allowing. A classic case of conflict between mind and heart where the mind is craving with logical facts to sweep away the opposition and the heart isn't allowing it.

Consider for eg, the case of Sage Bharatwaja.He married a Kshatriya woman (anuloma Marriage). Now the popular opinion (in the present scenario) is if a Brahmin marries outside his caste then he can't perform certain rituals because tradition says so is what I get as answer when I ask why. Now in the case of Bharatwaja rishi, wouldn't this apply? if so then the 'alleged' descendants of him Viz the people belonging to Bharatwaja Gotra shouldn't have any rights to perform rituals.
No offence to ppl belonging to Bharatwaja Gotra, I myself being one. Just wanted to know certain things. Thats it.

The brahmins (that includes me too) act on the basis of what their ancestors have said and change the rules even drastically, if there is a compulsion. I have already mentioned about Kudumi. I can cite many examples like maDiSAr puDavai, women and men not to wear
stitched clothes, etc., etc. Even in N. India the people including brahmins still conduct their marriage ceremony after midnight before sunrise; this because at the height of Mughal rule (particularly Aurangzeb) the Brahmin virgin girls were captured and forcibly converted to Islam and day time marriages vanished therefore.

If one studies enough of our scriptures, one will find how cunning our law givers were and how gullible or idiotic the followers were. Now coming to the subject of Gotra itself. It is said as under:

பிரம்மதேவன் அஸ்வமேத யாகம் செய்கையில் தன தேஜஸை ஹோமம் செய்து அக்கினியை வளரத்தபொழுது அத்தேஜசிலிருந்து அவருக்குப் புத்திரனாக பிருகு தோன்றினார். அங்காரத்திலிருந்து (நெருப்பு) அங்கிரசும், அர்ச்சிசிலிருந்து (ஒளி) அத்திரியும், மரீசியிலிருந்து (கிரணம்) மரீசியும், கபிச (சாம்பல்) நிறமுள்ள கேசத்திலிருந்து புலஸ்தியரும், நீண்ட கேசத்திலிருந்து புலஹரும், வசு (ஹவிஸ்) மத்தியத்தில் இருந்து வசிஷ்டரும் தோன்றினார்கள்.

Since these 7 original Gotra Rishis (usually called Saptarishis) emanated from different parts of that Agni, they need not be considered as "sagOtRas". If somebody asks whether they are not really sagotras because (ultimately) they all came from the same Agni, the answer is that all people in this world are products of the same 'Prakr^thi' (nature).

So, with one stroke of the pen, so to say, our ancient Puranakartas have allowed the seven original sapta rishis a separate treatment although they (the Puranakarthas) were probably compelled to invent the story of their origin from the same source so that all the seven gotras are seen as equal. Here you will also see on what flimsy grounds we are upholding the Gotra as such an inviolable rule. I know one or two cases of sagotra marriages and their children are hale and hearty.

Staying on the same Gotra story, Pulaha's descendants were the Asuras while Pulastya's descendants were the Pisachas. Vasishta died and was reborn in the family of Marichi; Agastya was also born as descendant of Marichi. Thus, as the second step we have 8 gotra rishis as under:

1. Jamadagni (Descendant of Bhrigu)
2. Bharadvaja (Descendant of Angiras)
3. Gauthama (Descendant of Angiras)
4. Kasyapa (Descendant of Marichi)
5. Vasishta (Descendant of Marichi)
6. Agastya (Descendant of Marichi)
7. Atri
8. Agastya (Descendant of Marichi)**

** Not a mistake but that is how it is stated in the book "Rishikalum GoththirangaLum" by Lifco.

Subsequently ten more Gotra Rishis came into being. They were, 1) Vaithahavya, 2) Mitrayu (Mitrayuva), 3. Sunaka, 4) yavana, [all four considered descendants of Bhrigu), 5) rathheedhara, 6) Mudgala, 7) VishnuvR^ddha, 8) Harita, 9) Kanva and 10) SankR^thi, the last 6 considered descendants of Angiras.

All the above ten were originally Kshatriyas, later became brahmanas. When thhey were Kshatriyas, they belonged to Marichi and Atri families respectively, but after conversion as Brahmanas they embraced Bhr^gu and Angiras gotras.

These 18 groups are considered 18 different families.

Is your head reeling?

That describes the artificial sanctity which has come to be bestowed on the Gotra aspect.

As Happy Hindu pointed out one cannot define one's varna in the present day scenario. So how could a brahmin marrying outside of his caste be denied his rights when one of the Sapta Rishi himself married outside of his Varna.
If the Gotra origin story given above does not suffice, let me tell you that according to Manu Neeti (Manava Dharma Sastra) men of the three upper castes can jolly well have anuloma marriages, i.e., girl coming from a caste lower than his own; naturally the brahmana has the best deal, and he can marry, besides the brahmin girl, girl from the Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra castes. Similarly, a Kshtriya can have kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra wives, but not a brahmin wife, and so on. The Dharma Sastras stipulate the caste of the off springs born out of such anuloma marriages (as also pratiloma marriages, which were very much detested). So, Sapta Rishi or a man of today can very well perform the religious rites of a brahmin but you cannot compel the priest (Vaideekan) to come to that function and the law of the land does not prescribe any solution for such contingencies.

"However, please note that traditions are not used as an excuse."

Yes it is Sir, and fierce opposition to Sa-Gotra marriage stands as a testimony to it even though the Gotra tree has extended into thousands of branches and its virtually impossible to trace it and find out if the boy and girl are really 'brothers' and 'sisters'.
I also saw some posts claiming scientific 'proof' for prohibiting Sa-Gotra marriages claiming the child wouldn't be healthy. Well Science clearly states it holds good only when first cousins marry and definitely not valid when it goes beyond fourth cousins. So that argument falls flat given the uncountable number of cousins since the time when Gotra was formally established.
I hope I have already answered this point. Among South Indians the custom of marrying "mama pillai" and "aththai pillai" existed from historical times, if not earlier and the law also recognises and allows it for South Indians (only, I suppose). If genetic causes are the reasons for sagotra ban, the same genetic causes will apply for such marriages also, just as in "Chiththappa Pillai" or "Periyappa Pillai" cases. (Presumption is the brothers don't marry blood sisters, in which event the problem gets worse.
 
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Hi Sangom, Sorry for the late reply.
First of all yes my head is reeling :) and I think this statement here sums it up all

If one studies enough of our scriptures, one will find how cunning our law givers were and how gullible or idiotic the followers were

This is where the problem lies. Ppl (atleast many of us) aren't ready or interested to study our scriptures and blindly impose it in the name of customs and that really pains me especially when ppl of my generation are made victims. (Anyway thats different).

Comin back to the origin of Gotrams one can find many stories giving different versions and account of their origins. There is not a agreement on who were the original sapta rishis who are supposedly our ancestors. THere is just too many versions of it. Given the confusion and complexity revolving around our Gotra system I feel its time ppl truly accept the fact that opposing same gotra marriages citing brother-sister relationship doesn't hold good in the present scenario and if only they bother to read our scriptures then they would realize how gullible or idiotic they (followers)were.

Wonderful info Sangom :clap2:
 
Hi Sangom, Sorry for the late reply.
First of all yes my head is reeling :) and I think this statement here sums it up all

If one studies enough of our scriptures, one will find how cunning our law givers were and how gullible or idiotic the followers were

This is where the problem lies. Ppl (atleast many of us) aren't ready or interested to study our scriptures and blindly impose it in the name of customs and that really pains me especially when ppl of my generation are made victims. (Anyway thats different).

Comin back to the origin of Gotrams one can find many stories giving different versions and account of their origins. There is not a agreement on who were the original sapta rishis who are supposedly our ancestors. THere is just too many versions of it. Given the confusion and complexity revolving around our Gotra system I feel its time ppl truly accept the fact that opposing same gotra marriages citing brother-sister relationship doesn't hold good in the present scenario and if only they bother to read our scriptures then they would realize how gullible or idiotic they (followers)were.

Wonderful info Sangom :clap2:​
There is a real difficulty for some youngsters, particularly those who hail from orthodox families. The elders try to stick on to time worn beliefs and customs but relax it nicely when it does not suit them; when it comes to youngsters they impose it with all the force in their command and seem to get a vicarious satisfaction of their having led a religious, virtuous life! The predicaments of a trulyorthodox brahmin were beautifully narrated in an old Malayalam movie "gayatri". (Mr. Raghy, it is worth seeing if you can get it in youtube.)

FYI, I have seen about a handful of marriages in sagotras with apparently no relationship otherwise. In all cases the girl is nominally "adopted" by her maternal uncle or maternal relative of another gotra, who will perform the "kanyakaadaana"; the priests are satisfied since they don't have to repeat the same pravara for both the boy and girl; orthodoxy is satisfied because in the divine records a sagotra marriage will not be recorded!!
 
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hh,

kiamz = old farts
attu = shake

kiazmattu,it's only a satire or joke on my part,nothing to offend you personally dear.
 
NN,

Unlike many new members, Anand presented a reasonable question and participated in the discussion in a reasonable and thoughtful fashion. If you have anything of value to add, please do so, otherwise let the grownups alone.

I know you are not a bad person, and I even like you enough to tolerate your droppings. But Anand is a newcomer and he deserves some courtesy. Stop writing the first things that comes into your head and say it is only a joke and you are not offending. Saying something clearly offensive and then saying no offense is cowardice at best.

Stop it NN, your brown colored nuggets have long since ceased to be funny if they ever were......

nara,

i did not know you are a kiazam and you aatufy also.i guess we human usually drop brown nuggets,unless a person thinks god has given him or her the right to butt in between a conversation,which was clearly not directed to him.Oh,yeah you are a grown up and behave like one.hmpfffff.:)

i realy don't need any certificate from you,whether i am good or bad nara.i have enuff and more certificates,thank you.and i did not know,that you of all the people in the forum,who has been offensive with your outlandish suggestion,shud take an authoritative stand to repreive.lo,miracles never cease to stop,i guess.

as far as anand who is a newcomer here,well..what can i say...i think my post was clearly mentioned as a joke...btw nara kids too enjoy jokes,not only the domain of supposedly grownups here.some nerve you got.
 
@ Sangom, Once again great reply sir. The process of adoption by the girl's maternal uncle to perform a sagotra marriage is very common among the Kashmir Pandits/Hindus. So we tambrams can borrow it from them if we need it ;) Thats how the society progressed and it will continue to do so. Knowledge Transfer :rolleyes:

There is a real difficulty for some youngsters, particularly those who hail from orthodox families. The elders try to stick on to time worn beliefs and customs but relax it nicely when it does not suit them; when it comes to youngsters they impose it with all the force in their command and seem to get a vicarious satisfaction of their having led a religious, virtuous life

Exactly !.

@ NN

kiamz = old farts ---- I didn't know this :embarassed:

Anyway its a joke and let it be so. Cha idha munnadiyae therinjiruntha indha pera vaechiruka maataen :(
 
@ Sangom, Once again great reply sir. The process of adoption by the girl's maternal uncle to perform a sagotra marriage is very common among the Kashmir Pandits/Hindus. So we tambrams can borrow it from them if we need it Thats how the society progressed and it will continue to do so. Knowledge Transfer

There is a real difficulty for some youngsters, particularly those who hail from orthodox families. The elders try to stick on to time worn beliefs and customs but relax it nicely when it does not suit them; when it comes to youngsters they impose it with all the force in their command and seem to get a vicarious satisfaction of their having led a religious, virtuous life

Exactly !.

@ NN

kiamz = old farts ---- I didn't know this

Anyway its a joke and let it be so. Cha idha munnadiyae therinjiruntha indha pera vaechiruka maataen :(

anand,

in my own family,my p.appa's son fell in love with a girl,who is saha gothram.and the girls side exactly did,the 'dhara vaathufying' by adopting her to another gothram,today they have a son,who is hale and hearty and doing well in school.the beauty is,my p.appa is a terror when it comes to all this orthodox biz unlike my dad,who was cool as a cucumber,and did not strictly enforce caste creed or religion,but owing to kula guru's anugraham,we did the routines.

thanks for understanding,that i meant your moniker as a joke,only becoz happy hindu wanted to know,as she is very much research oriented character,which you can gather from the posts.it was just to lighten up.nara has no other better biz,and makes an ass of himself every forum he has gone to,thinking he is a genius.so here is a cup for nara :first:.

andy,i have taken lot's of liberty in your thread,please inulge me.:focus:
 
We need to update

Our customs are old. They could have been correct during the days they were introduced. We have to update our traditions and practices so that the younger generations do not feel them un necessary, waste of time and ill logical. We can suggest as to how they have to be changed and the manner in which the change will be accepted and communicated.
Like we organise the naveena suwyamvaran, we should organise the customs updater meetings involving the learned and respected persons. The updating will bring us to gather. It will help us grow as a community and also enable us to follow the customs in our busy schedule.
Jai Sri Ram
Jai Hind.
Manohar
 
Our customs are old. They could have been correct during the days they were introduced. We have to update our traditions and practices so that the younger generations do not feel them un necessary, waste of time and ill logical. We can suggest as to how they have to be changed and the manner in which the change will be accepted and communicated.
Like we organise the naveena suwyamvaran, we should organise the customs updater meetings involving the learned and respected persons. The updating will bring us to gather. It will help us grow as a community and also enable us to follow the customs in our busy schedule.
Jai Sri Ram
Jai Hind.
Manohar

manohar,

i am with you on this. not only our customs, but also our attitudes towards castes and exclusions of dalits from our hindu fold, all should be discussed and brought upto date.

for this we need religious leaders with a vision. unfortunately, the mutts are the most reactionary residence of conservatism, status quo and many of them are so brahmin centric that they are viewed with suspicion and dislike by other hindu communities.

as brahmins, we could take the leadership in bringing ourselves to the vanguard of change. but our own attitudes are still neanderthal.

if you follow the thread re swayamvaram in trivandrum, there is an initiative to explore finding girls for our 30+ bachelors, who are having a tough time finding mates. this initiative, will put forward the idea of finding mates among other brahmin groups from india. let us see how that is received. THAT will be the first step towards understanding the psyche of our community and how they view other brahmins and hinduism, at large.

good talking to you :)
 
Our customs are old. They could have been correct during the days they were introduced. We have to update our traditions and practices so that the younger generations do not feel them un necessary, waste of time and ill logical. We can suggest as to how they have to be changed and the manner in which the change will be accepted and communicated.
Like we organise the naveena suwyamvaran, we should organise the customs updater meetings involving the learned and respected persons. The updating will bring us to gather. It will help us grow as a community and also enable us to follow the customs in our busy schedule.
Jai Sri Ram
Jai Hind.
Manohar

Probably on the sidelines of swayamvaram functions we can do it. May be the previous evening of swayamvaram event, we can all meet discuss several issues including traditions, customs, common problems facing our community etc. Even though we discuss several things here, nothing can replace one to one meetings.

Let us try this during future swayamvaram events

All the best
 
Probably on the sidelines of swayamvaram functions we can do it. May be the previous evening of swayamvaram event, we can all meet discuss several issues including traditions, customs, common problems facing our community etc. Even though we discuss several things here, nothing can replace one to one meetings.

Let us try this during future swayamvaram events

All the best

rvr,

great idea to discuss these things as sidelight of swayamvarams.

primary to the success, is a strong moderator, to avoid not only things going out of whack, but also to keep focus and the audience in line and interested.

an agenda might help, and time boxing the various topics, with summary of the discussion and plan of action can follow.

ie like any normal office meeting. best wishes for this too.
 
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