believe in god....

AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION.

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the
problem science has with God, The Almighty.


He asks one of his new students to stand and .....



Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.


Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.


Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal
him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God
didn't.
How is this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again! , young fellow. Is
God good?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything.
Correct?
Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?


Student does not answer.


Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?


Student has no answer.


Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.



Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't.


(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)


Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat,
mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have
anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no
heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing
as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.
We cannot measure cold.

Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the
absence of it.


(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)


Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as
darkness?


Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light,
flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have
nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness
isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker,
wouldn't you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue
there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You
are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses
electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully
understood either one.

To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact
that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life: just the absence of it.

Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved
from a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes,
of course, I do.


Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?


(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize
where the argument is going.)


Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going
endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a
scientist but a preacher?


(The class is in uproar.)


Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the
Professor's brain?


(The class breaks out into laughter.)


Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's
brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so.
So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable,
demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir.

With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?


(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)


Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That
is all that keeps things moving & alive.
.
.
.
.
.
. WANT TO KNOW WHO THAT STUDENT WAS
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I believe you have enjoyed the conversation............. . and the
student was none other than .........
Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, the present president of India

Dear Karthika:

That was a good one! However, this 'conversation' was published quite some time ago (a few years). Only you changed the name to Dr. Kalam, the President of India! I have great respect for your President; nevertheless, this did not happen with Dr. Kalam!

Yeah me too.

silverfox said:

Dear Karthika:

That was a good one! However, this 'conversation' was published quite some time ago (a few years). Only you changed the name to Dr. Kalam, the President of India! I have great respect for your President; nevertheless, this did not happen with Dr. Kalam!

Click to expand...

This has been going rounds in the internet. With the names changed. I have seen this post with names of Eini, Bohr, or some variants.

believe in god - reply thread

Confused.....

Read a recent article covering on EVR Statue issue.....Karu in his own inimitable style gave a logic that since "EVR is a Hindu atheist & atheism has a place in Hinduism", there shouldn't be any opposition to his statue being placed before temples (or if possible inside temples as well)...This apart, my questions are :

a) Does atheism have a place in Hinduism or any religion for that matter ?

b) If religion represents group of people having similar faiths, can a person who doesn't share the same set of beliefs be part of the group ?

c) Or is it like a Board of Directors of a Company where Non executive directors not holding any shares can be part of the board & direct the organization ?

Confused.....!!!!!

hariharan1972 said:

Read a recent article covering on EVR Statue issue.....Karu in his own inimitable style gave a logic that since "EVR is a Hindu atheist & atheism has a place in Hinduism", there shouldn't be any opposition to his statue being placed before temples (or if possible inside temples as well)...This apart, my questions are :

a) Does atheism have a place in Hinduism or any religion for that matter ?

b) If religion represents group of people having similar faiths, can a person who doesn't share the same set of beliefs be part of the group ?

c) Or is it like a Board of Directors of a Company where Non executive directors not holding any shares can be part of the board & direct the organization ?

Confused.....!!!!!

Click to expand...

Yes, Atheism is a part of hinduism.

Adi Shankarar had a verbal duel/debate with kumarila bhattar ( i hope i got his name correct). Kumarila bhattar was of the opinion that karma kandam is just enough for mukthi and there is no need for bhakthi.

The Debate was going on for many days and ultimately kumarila bhattar lost but kumarlia bhattars wife saradha said the victory is not complete without shankara defeating her also and that is a separate topic.

Kumarila bhattar became a disciple of shankara after that and i think he was made as the first shankaracharya of sringeri.

Even Advaitham at its core concept says everything is maya and the DK gang interprets it as a supporting fixture for atheism. If you read DK magazines you would know that they consider advaithis as atheists.

Even if you read Dwaitha books they consider advaithis as atheists.


the late Pope john paul IV, Ambedkar, EVR all considered Buddhism as a atheistic religion.

Dear lotus_quartz:
Please see my responses in red color.

lotus_quartz said:

An excellent conversation. It brings us to focus on the core issue of beleif in almighty. If we assume that almighty is all powerful, friendly, compassionate and eternal entity, we must also beleive that he could do no injustice to anyone as an individual and definitely no injustice to a set of people who are born in a particular group called caste in Indian society. So it would therefore be right to conclude that the holy poppycock fed to the teeming millions by the numerious generations of Brahmins was only a self serving insidious propoganda for setting up their supremacy over the other castes.

I agree with most of your statements. However, why single out Brahmins?

A society should be egalitarian in the sense that social standing of any individual should be based on his or her calibre, achievments and ability and definitely not based on birth. Previous attempts in other parts of the world to set up egalitarian societies based on marxist idelogy did not succeed for one single reason - meritocracy can not be sacrificed or suppressed and therefore no two can be equal. However, supremacy based on birth is also not possible to sustain any longer.
Agree with your views on society being egalitarian. But aren't we, the Brahmins, fighting for one, now that everybody (except the Brahmins) has gotten (you probably included) on the bandwagon of this so-called 'reservation'? It is amusing that the very same people who clamour for BC, MBC or whatever reservations, are talking about justice and meritocracy!!

So, the crux of what I wish to say (to TAMBRAMS) is :- Promote justice, liberty, equality of all, encourage meritocracy, dignity of labour etc. and wind up all the hymns , chantings etc. etc. as relics of bygone vedic era - these have only created divisions in the society.
Praying to god should be done in solitude and in silence - a one to one communication with God !

Click to expand...

While I respect your views, you have no right to tell the Brahmins to wind up all the hymns and chantings. Why don't you say this to the Christians to stop their hymns or the muslims from chanting from Quaran?

I completely agree with your last statement that praying is purely personal between the person and God and that it should be done in solitude and in silence.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Dear Silverfox,
Thanks for at least partly agreeing with my views. Your comments in red were quite revealing as to the present state of thinking of TAMBRAMS. However, there are certain issues which must be deliberated if TAMBRAMS are really going to live up to the professed standards of their caste.

It is now universally realized that the down-trodden classes were much ill-treated for thousands of years and a great wrong was committed on them, right in front of the eyes and most often with religious sanctions given by the Brahmins.

But have the TAMBRAMS ever tried to put themselves in the shoes of some one who has been given the task of setting right the wrongs caused by the two (?) thousand year old concept of vertical stratification of society and its practical manifestations?

How do you go about it?

Whoever had designed and propogated the idea of stratification of society was obviously a beneficiary of the system which put at his or her disposal a disproportionate share of the wealth, respect, sometimes the assets and influence of the society. Per se nothing wrong with it, but the have nots who suffered silently for more than two thousand years have now woken up and are demanding a fair share of the society's wealth, education, assets, power and influence. At this stage, the have-nots are not particularly impressed with the Brahminical / Upper Caste talk of equality, justice, fair competition etc. Political power is now in the hands of those who have got the right numbers. In a democratic setup, this is inevitable. State-by-state this is happening. By putting a pro-rata and proportionate share of assets and resources of the society in to the hands of the have-nots, the democratically elected governments are trying to restore parity.

This in short-run is leading to heartburn among the elite castes, but TAMBRAMS should console themselves by accepting this as a penance for the past complicity and acts of omissions and commissions of racial injustice without making a big issue out of it.

Even now, a great deal of economic activities is beyond the direct interference of government policies. Why not TAMBRAMS try to excel in business, sports and other newly evolved vocations ? TAMBRAMS are already excelling in Software and IT. Keep it up!

Though the idea is not to advocate the concept of atheism, the fact remains that vedic Brahminism is anachronistic in today's world. It would be wiser for TAMBRAMS to modernize themselves and remove themselves from the bindings of service class mentality and try to evolve in to modern secular progressive community which will help in ultimate survival and betterment.

To this goal, even if situation demands, eating of Veg/Non-Veg, Drinks, Smoking, and other activities hitherto considerto taboo could be considered acceptable or as matters of personal choice. This would help in removing the stereotyping about TAMBRAMS. (Taeer Saatham Vadoo Manga eating types). Cohabiting with not-twice-borns, championing the cause of oppressed classes are some other vocations should be considered now a must for TAMBRAMS.

Taking a cue from the Jews who were historically oppressed but happened to flourish in whichever country welcomed them, TAMBRAMS could consider acquiring and honing skills as fine business men. Wealth and power are always intermingled. One can not survive without other. If TAMBRAMS can't get power (dont' have the right numbers), skills in amassing wealth could be learned and honed to perfection.

Another case in point, the morphing from one state to another could be achieved in just one generation. A whole lot of panjabi migrants who migrated from West Punjab (now, Pakistan) and landed as penniless in this side of border at the time of partition are all now wealthy businessman and traders. Go and see any hindi movie - the Hero (in reel life as well as in real life) is more often than not A Kapoor/Arora/Chopra/Khanna - in crux a wealthy handsome panjabi.

To yaaron, badlate zamane ke saath badalna hoga! Naukri pesha chchodo, business karo!

Logging off, more later!

Dear lotus_quartz:
First of all, let me compliment you on your fine writing; you have a flair for writing and I enjoy reading your posting.
I couldn't agree with you more on your statement that Brahmins have had their share of exploiting other castes and have done things. However, if you stand away from it and look at it from a anthropological point of view, you will see that it is nothing but preservation one's own group; I hasten to add that I categorically am against it. Just look at the US. The whites were masters of the black people who were brought to the US against their own will. After 200 years, there is still very many whites who think (they may not say it in public) they are superior to the black. Getting back to Brahmins, for every Brahmin who exploited other castes, I can show Brahmins who fought for the equality of the dalits and have helped them.

Well, I say that it is all water over the dam. Let us examine what is going on today. Growing up as a boy in the late 50's and 60's, I was very afraid of Mr. EV Ramasamy Naicker and his goondas. EVR unleashed his hooligans on the hapless and poor brahmins, terrorized them and insulted all Hindus (no caste) by breaking idols and putting chappals on them... Above all, he insulted my language, Tamil, by calling it a "Barbaric language" - by his own writing. Yet, he is considered to be a great Tamilian. Sorry! I am digressing!
Pray tell, why do you think that by eating meat, smoking and drinking will make the tamil brahmins any better? Why shouldn't it be a taboo?
Your point is well taken. Yes, this reservation has done some good to them. To begin with, they got a kick in their asses and now you will find very many brahmins getting to be good entreprenuers and business people. They are venturing into unchartered territories. To quote Martin Luther King - "We shall overcome"!

Lastly, why pick on brahmins to practice being 'secular'? Doesn't this apply to all castes, all religions?

Keep writing.

Dear Silverfox,

So it appears that I am able to get support on some of my views. Good going! Let us address some of the issues raised by you in your rejoinder.
1. Preserving ethnic identity:
It would be alright to preserve one's own ethnic stock to the extent possible. Do it as unwritten code of conduct, but try to avoid using the pretext of varnashram, sacred books etc. This does not jell with the political sensitivies of those outside your ethnic stock. Spin some other yarn for your actions! Manu smriti is not very popular now a days. Publicly renounce it. Drop it like hot potato. Anyway, you didn't author it.


2. Barbaric language?

Tamil does have a long history and rich heritage. So, supporting Tamil is OK.
But drop dogmatic approach towards other languages. Learning Hindi, other Indian languages and English and other foreign languages should be welcomed. I was poor in 'Crafts' taught in the school. If the option of taking a language as elective in place of 'Crafts' were available, I would have lapped it up! Sometimes, when choice of making positive selection is not possible, you go for 'eliminating of undesirable choices'.

3. Being Secular?
This is the most fashionable word all over the globe. Religion is associated with dogma & right wing fanatism. Hindus were divided and stratified to such an extent that its right wing fanatism is directed inwards and not against any other religion. So, emotionally sticking to old beleifs, texts, practices which were illogical should be immediately discarded. If the accusing fingures are raised towards Brahmins, why not the Brahmins themselves lead temple-entry processions, inter-dining programs etc? What do you stand to lose anyway?


4. Taboo practices?
Oh come on, you know it very well that we all do it on the sly. All that is required is to expunge references of tabooism associated with liquor, meat etc. in (Brahminical) official records.
Occassional boozing, feasting on various dishes you like are clearly matters of personal choice. Why to involve caste/religion in it? If you live in Rome and do (occasionally) what Romans do, you integrate with the Romans better! Getting my point?

Dear lotus_quartz
It appears that you have taken things out of context from my post.
1. Ethnic identity: I was not FOR it or supporting it; I was merely stating why things the way they were.
2. Barbaric language: This was uttered by Mr. EVR. I noticed you did not condemn him or his bigotry against the brahmins or his insult against my mother-tongue, Tamil. Of course, there are people who would accept tamil brahmins as tamils no matter what!!
3. But many brahmins were and ARE for dalit temple entries. It is the other castes who are preventing them. Just read the daily papers. I for one feel that all human beings are created the same by God and I absolutely am with Dalits; they are every bit a part of our Hindu religion and, thus, MUST be allowed entry into the temples. Who are we to stop them?
4. Taboos: I don't know what you meant. I was saying that smoking and excess drinking (I for one am a social drinker (wine only) and I practically grew up in the US) was bad for our health; of course, I am against eating meat. However, as you have pointed out, it must be a personal choice and we cannot force our personal beliefs on others. Of course, religion has nothing to do with one's eating meat.
Who are these Romans that you are talking about?

Dear Silverfox,
1.Hinduism allows monotheism,polytheism as well as atheism. Over the past thousands of years, initiators of alternate religions were quickly absorbed into hindu fold and given the status of Avatars. Mahavir Jain and Gautam Budhdha are considered to be one of the many avtaaras of God. It appears that EVR is held in high esteem by majority of population in TN. Suppose TAMBRAMS also joined the others and officially declared him as the greatest Hindu of recent times?

2. The reference to Romans is only metaphorically. Read TN for Rome.

My my my.. kaun hai ye puttar, kahaan se yehaan par ghus gaya?

Dear Silverfox,
Thanks for at least partly agreeing with my views. Your comments in red were quite revealing as to the present state of thinking of TAMBRAMS. However, there are certain issues which must be deliberated if TAMBRAMS are really going to live up to the professed standards of their caste.

Quit picking on Dr Silverfox. He is wise and probably as old as your father. As for your pontificating troll post, you should go find someplace else to sell your pseudo-hedonistic moralizing masquerading as advice. Nahin to laat maar kar yehaan se nikaal doonga, bas daaru piyo, mauj manao, jee bhar ke khaao, chokri ke peeche bhaaago. Aur kuch tumhaare bheje main hai kya, gandi dimaag hai, kuch ganga ka jal piyo, snaan karo aur jaldi sudhar jao :thumb:

Now.. to dissect your subversive blatherings..you seem to be an unholy cross between a dialectical materialist commie, a libertarian yuppie, and a card-carrying neo-conservative preacher.

a. State-by-state this is happening. By putting a pro-rata and proportionate share of assets and resources of the society in to the hands of the have-nots, the democratically elected governments are trying to restore parity.

Umm, talking about TN, how exactly are 69% of the land-owning, industry-owning castes considered have-nots? That is the problem with libertarian, confused, commies like you. The demo version of any education /job quota meant for the camera will invariably show some poor farmer or rickshaw puller meant to pile on the guilt-trip, but the real beneficiaries will be the have-alls (read affluent layer). Very few quota champions respond when confronted with the exposure of this typical bait-and-switch, and I bet this commie-libertarian mongrel will also do the same :rockon:

b. Though the idea is not to advocate the concept of atheism, the fact remains that vedic Brahminism is anachronistic in today's world. It would be wiser for TAMBRAMS to modernize themselves and remove themselves from the bindings of service class mentality and try to evolve in to modern secular progressive community which will help in ultimate survival and betterment.

The Vedas are in many ways both a living record of the way people lived their lives in ancient times, their philosophies, their fears, their incomplete understanding of the world, complemented with a healthy understanding of human relationships (which rarely changes from era to era). You should actually take the time to read them, and I assure you no Tambram is going to stop you. It is an absolutely fascinating look into how our ancestors understanding evolved over centuries. And in some cases the quality of their debates and insights into human nature rival anything I have read in the Odyssey or the Illiad. The Western Classics are taught even today and studied ardently by many European and American students. Why? Are they not anachronistic, talking about Zeus, and Hades and the interplay of Earth, Wind, Fire as elemental forces? Do people not read the Old Testament with great reverence, about plagues visited by God and the sea parting etc? It is *only* because Brahmans passed along the Vedas and Upanishads and Gita by oral tradition that they survive to this day, rediscovered by Max Mueller, Cornwall, Macaulay and others who previously thought Indians were savages. Otherwise Indians would have been considered like Sub-saharan africans, without any respect in the world at all. I see *no* reason why Tambrams should stop reading the Vedas. I thank my ancestors, and salute them for their intellectual rigor.

The Jews were persecuted, but did they give up the Talmud to become modern? No! They knew the importance of having roots, an identity, a lore of past oppressions, victories, heroes, relationships, survival techniques, intellectual accomplishments, philosophical debates, a connection to the past that they could refer to. It is what provides inner confidence, a sense of purpose in a people, an anchor and a definition of culture, which is nothing but the sum of experiences of one's ancestors.

One must remember, that all this modernism is only one asteroid impact or ice-age away from throwing civilization back to the very same circumstances that existed before. Only values are enduring and time-less. Relationships with parents and family duties, what one would flippantly dismiss as "family values", are those subjects among which the anachronistic Vedas have plenty to talk about. I do not find those irrelevant even today. With all the progress that society has seen, are people really that much happier than 3000 years ago? When people come to a certain point in life they will ask this question.

Yes, Brahmans did become corrupt with power and added societal rules and Shaastras which gave them influence over society, but that happens in every society, and is actually referred to by Adi Sankaracharya himself as an undesirable development.

c. To this goal, even if situation demands, eating of Veg/Non-Veg, Drinks, Smoking, and other activities hitherto considerto taboo could be considered acceptable or as matters of personal choice. This would help in removing the stereotyping about TAMBRAMS. (Taeer Saatham Vadoo Manga eating types). Cohabiting with not-twice-borns, championing the cause of oppressed classes are some other vocations should be considered now a must for TAMBRAMS.

Why? What is the all-encompassing pleasure of eating flesh, for which an animal has been killed, its blood spilt as it dies in agony? I want no part of that, and I am glad my Tambram forefathers and Buddha and Mahavira Jain and others spoke against it. Non-violence is a virtue. One day an advanced alien which looks like a goat may decide to grow and harvest humans for its foodstock.

Drinking/smoking/drugs/screwing around, are not things that I would consider particularly appealing. To the refrains of "chal yaar, you are missing out on pleasure in life yaar", I do not have anything nice to say that would be comprehended by the deluded. It is like in a gang, an initiation rite in gangs to be part of the troop. If others want to harm their own body, that is their problem, but I for one am glad that at least some Tambrams hesitate in indulging in these. I just do not see the enormous wisdom in debasing oneself. Until you respect yourself, no one else will.

Regarding marriage, I think there is nothing wrong with a Tambram preferring to marry another Tambram. After all it is natural to marry someone who has the same food habits, and shares the same values and traditions, and finds each other mutually attractive. Does this mean tambrams hate Whites, or Blacks, or Chinese, or other Indians etc? No! Everyone should live in harmony and have similar rights under the law. I think that is what Tambrams in general want. There needs to be a separation of public life and private life. In private, people should have the freedom to believe what they want, associate with whomever they want, and in public treat everyone equally, particularly when it comes to education, jobs and access to public facilities. If everyone in the world looked the same, acted the same, spoke the same language, the world would be a very boring place indeed. It is good to have diversity!

d. Taking a cue from the Jews who were historically oppressed but happened to flourish in whichever country welcomed them, TAMBRAMS could consider acquiring and honing skills as fine business men. Wealth and power are always intermingled. One can not survive without other. If TAMBRAMS can't get power (dont' have the right numbers), skills in amassing wealth could be learned and honed to perfection.

I do agree that Tambrams must become more entrepreneurial, but conducting business just for the sake of amassing wealth and power without maintaining traditions and a principled core is purposeless and emptying. You should read the "Bhaja Govindam" poem by Adi Sankara who elucidates the folly of believing that wealth and power is the key to everything. I think most Tambrams want to afford at least a decent standard of living, be able to practice their own traditions without persecution, and generally be left alone out of all the power struggles going around in every country and the world.

I think Narayana Murthy is a great example (Kannadiga Brahman though), who to this day drives a Toyota Corolla, lives in a modest house in Koramangala, and cleans his own house, is the head of a 2-billion dollar behemoth organization, and yet commands great respect by his peers and colleagues.

But hey, I am not recommending you live like that. You live however you want, and let others live however they want as long as they are not interfering with each other.

Please see my responses in red.

lotus_quartz said:

Dear Silverfox,
1.Hinduism allows monotheism,polytheism as well as atheism. Over the past thousands of years, initiators of alternate religions were quickly absorbed into hindu fold and given the status of Avatars. Mahavir Jain and Gautam Budhdha are considered to be one of the many avtaaras of God. It appears that EVR is held in high esteem by majority of population in TN. Suppose TAMBRAMS also joined the others and officially declared him as the greatest Hindu of recent times?
You have got to be kidding! right? If so, may I say you have a somewhat sick sense of humor! Pray tell, how do you know that EVR is held in high esteem by MAJORITY of population in TN? Even if it were true, do you think (you seem to talk from a high moral ground), his bigotry and hooliganism were right?

2. The reference to Romans is only metaphorically. Read TN for Rome.

By your inference, you are insinuating that Tamil Brahmins are not Tamils and that since - I am quoting you - 'they came from somewhere and living among the Romans, they should be like the Romans". If you can only tell me how these 'Romans' behave (so that we can be like them!), that would be helpful.
I don't know about you; but I know I am 100% Tamil and happened to be a Brahmin.

Click to expand...

Dear mrifan:

Thank you for your kind words and support. It is ok, lotus_quartz has every right to express his views. Perhaps he will see the light soon enough! (I hope so!).
No matter how we all try to twist the facts to suit our own agenda, the real truth will ultimately come out on top.
By the way, that was an excellent dissection of lotus's posting!

I may not be wise but I probably am old enough to his father!! Why do they call me 'silverfox'?!!!

Dear mrifan:

I went back and re-read your responses to Lotus_quartz and I love it. If it is ok with you, I would like to steal some of your arguments and use it for future debates. I only wish I could debate like you do! Bravo!

Nice conversation - only think I humbly disagree is the connection between human and god is not confined to only FAITH but is ABSOLUTE truth. We humans are arrogant even with the limited 5 senses and 3 dimensional vision!

Dear lotus_quartz:

Absolutely! none taken. It is good to debate the issues. Also, sometimes we don't know if we are doing something wrong untile someone else points out. My only concern is that we shouldn't get down to personal attacks but keep things in proper perspective.

I like your quotation of Kabirdas. By the way, did you grow up in the North? You quote several sentences in Hindi?

I hope you will continue to write and express your views and comments.

Happy Pongal!