Reasons for the deep-rooted hatred

I have always wondered why there exists such deep-rooted hatred for the Brahmins in TN.

Could it be that "all brahmins" were downright bad or evil vis-a-vis the other castes ? Plain logic tells me that it cannot be so. There may have been some bad apples but i don't think the community itself can be accused of casteist behaviour.

Could this be due to the "ideology extremists" such as Periyar etc... who based on certain personal events (which could have been caused by some "bad apples") started the "negative campaigning" against brahmins ? Does this mean that people displayed a "herd mentality" and didn't apply their minds ?

Did Brahmins really deprive education & other opportunities to the other castes ? Life histories of Ambedkar, Bharathiyaar etc... suggest otherwise. Also one of the TB posts revealed the "castewise breakup" of students enrollment suggest that there was nothing preventing opportunities for other castes ?

Realistically can a community which was say 15% of population dominate say 70% (leaving other religious groups) ? I am sure as a well learned community they would have realised that the community is in a minority and may not be able to "hold on" for too long ?

Did Brahmins actually practice the much hated & written about "Manuwadi" culture ?. I know "Untouchability" was prevalent but were the brahmins the
"only" perpetrators ?

Did Brahmins "ignore" the "signals" & failed to see the "approaching storm" thereby not taking "course corrective" steps ?

Is it because by "unwittingly" being the first to adopting the "small family norm", we allowed the community to dwindle into a (even smaller) minority thereby weakening us further ? (Ofcourse it is not to suggest that going forward we should have cricket teams in households)

Or is it plain jealousy ?

Any Thoughts ???

SIR - The main reason is adoption of small family norm by brahmins all over world , because of which population of brahmins iwhen compared to other groups has declined completely over the years due to which vote beggars like the DMK do not have fear of getting defeated in elections inspite of abusing brahmins.

My Thoughts.

"Did Brahmins "ignore" the "signals" & failed to see the "approaching storm" thereby not taking "course corrective" steps ?"

Yes most of us ignored the signals. Thats why, I put the story of 3 frogs .
Most of us are still not aware of the problems facing our community.
Most of us think as long as we get a job and settle down, who cares whatever happens.
Most of us think as long as our sons and daughters do some engineering degree, go to US and get a software job, we have attained salvation.
We are thankful for any minor relief we get ( say some recommendation from some one gets some clerical job in government). We conveiniently forget the fact that, we dont require anybody's mercy( except god) and we are strong enough to stand the challenges. Infact we forgot that we would have been in a position to recommend if not quotaed and discriminated by the government.
YOu know something, I cant even get few of my friends to join the forum. They are "too busy" to participate and they dont want to get involved in "politics". Only god can save we people. Our right to perform religious duties is being taken away in front of our own eyes.
The kid of an intercaste marriage takes the caste of the father only ( that way they can enjoy brahmin women-some comments made by some of my classmates in school have created a permanent scar in my mind-offcourse I am not Bhima, or Arjuna, I am poor powerless brahmin.)

"Is it because by "unwittingly" being the first to adopting the "small family norm", we allowed the community to dwindle into a (even smaller) minority thereby weakening us further ? (Ofcourse it is not to suggest that going forward we should have cricket teams in households)".

Offcourse we need to have cricket teams in the households. Size does matter, but it is the herd mentality that is required at this moment. Even if we have 11 people in a house and 11 people vote for 11 differnet parties and few of them dont vote at all, then again we are in deep sh**. That case, politicians can always say " Parpana visha chedigal ( weed) vidhaigal illamal paravinave ayyago", and we will get scr*** like dodos. Then our increased population will be blamed for everything. So we have to be very very very ( guys I cant stress enough) cohesive, project ourselves as a herd.There will always be some support from people of other castes also, we should mobilise that.

We should donate to upanayanams of poor brahmin people, we should donate books to poor brahmins students, we should refer poor deserving brahmins for job opportunities.
Above all we should not remain just an electronic forum. We got to meet personally, and we have to align with the local brahmin organisations.

We need to have strong policies, strong adherence to policies and stay united.

Solid post by Kudumi.

The predominant factor is "inferiority complex" which then goes on to become "jealousy" - which then transforms into "hatred"

Unless we can mobilize, it's going to be curtains for us as a community.

A telling indicator is how many of Brahmins register on this site. Though we tell our friends and acquaintances to register here, the response is always pitifully inadequate.

Dear hariharan1972 ji,

I am a bit outdated - I am from the 1947 era!

I have been thinking about this exact question you raise for the past 20 odd years and been having quite a bit of conversations with others in other communities - especially in TN. I can for myself cite the following reasons:

1. Brahmins were favoured by the British for higher level jobs (I know this to be a true cause of split between the communities from the experience of my own dad).

2. Tamil language versus Sanskrit wes exploited by those who felt disadvantaged by the above.

3. Caste wise practices AS APPLIED TO BRAHMINS were exploited by the same folks (cutting of 'poonals' and 'kudumis' were part of this).

4. 'Rationalist' ideology of Periyar (even though it is rubbish) appealed to common folks who have no knowledge of the Hindu traditions nor its import. I do not include just 'Dalits' here but as well other 'Varnas' other than 'Brahmins' here.

5. 'Brahmins' have not explained adequately their 'role' and why they do what they do. As some 'Brahmins' have abandoned their 'Varna Dharma' to occupy 'lucrative' jobs in a 'secular country', the 'real' 'Brahmins' who follow the 'Varana Dharma' are not properly understood for their 'roles'.

6. The 'hate' is now mutual. Most of the 'Brahmins' thus hate the 'Dravidian' culture and most of the 'Dravidians' now hate the 'Brahmins'. So it is now coded. Looking at the Politics now, one can clearly understand how this is now exploited at the vote bank as well as the community level.

7. Brahmins are the minority. So, we need to do the most of the work to redress this.

Just my humble opinion.

Pranams,
KRS

Dear KRS ,

I agree with all of your points except poiint 1 because i dont know about that.

The younger brahmins (brahmins of my generation) especially those who were brought up in urban centers like Madras etc., are just torn inbetween.
Even small things like the maha periyavar getting kanakabhisekam (with gold coins) on his 100th birthday is/was being ridiculed. I dont know whether it is right or wrong. Saying against that in the family conversations you will be branded as a rouge and supporting it with your friends outside you would be treated as a casteist.

Even saying that you went to the kanchi mutt (not now but during the mid 90s when i was in college and now it is just worse with Jayendrar) you would be termed as casteist.

We cannot deny the "Madi" and "acharam" practised by out grand mothers (in my experience at least by my grandmother) and people of that era are indeed a show of caste superiority or atleast that is what is being perceived by the majority of other caste people.

I really dont understand why we should claim exclusivity in being temple priests. What is wrong with others doing it. Are we not doing other jobs which other community is supposed to do?

I think the major problem facing our community is :

1. not adhering to the current changes like not fully accepting that other castes can be temple preists. I can say this from many of the postings here.

2. many people like even my father saying that temple poojas should be done only in sanskrit. This causes a greater divide between us and others in TN where people have Tamil in great regard.

These are the things we are doing to others and the real threat to us is the reservation issue. I dont know what would be the status of our community in 10-15 years from now because of this.

1.I think the real problem is a combination of envy and differences in language/ethnicity.
2.Tamil nadu is in the deep south of india.The dravidian people are proud of Tamizh.It is different from sanskrit.
3.Brahmanas primary loyalty is to vedas and upanishads.
In olden days,this was not a problem.as everyone kept to their jobs.
4.When the british came,the brahmanas took to modern life.They enthusiastically took to national regeneration.
5.But because of divide and rule policy and also because tamils are different from other indians,the non-brahmanas pursued their own agenda.
6.Brahmanas spoke and wrote fluent english.They identified themselves with india.This increased the insecurity of vellalas,who felt national regeneration of tamils can be brought about by returning to tamil roots,annihilating caste and removing vedas,sanskrit from tamil national life.There were and are moderates.There will be moderates.
7.It is a clash of two cultures reared in Bharata varshsa.
8.Initially,only mudaliars and pillais were active in tamil literary and social life,with a few chettiars,gounders,maravas thrown in.
8.but now thevars,gounders,vanniars,nadars have joined in large numbers because of dmk and mass literacy.
9.writers,journalists,students,teachers,traders,chettiar businessmen support tamil nationalism because of emotional reasons and opportunities in education,business and jobs.
10.They feared competition from brahmanas,now they want to enjoy freebies and goodies without competition.
11.it doen't help that most brahmanas have 'brahmana kalai' and our dialect is distinct.
12.In a way,protectionism at home is understandable.Look at the plight of kannadigas in bangalore.
13.In spite of all this,some brahmanas are doing well in tamil life-hariharan,shankar mahadevan,bombay jayashree,other playback singers.
14.Dravidian politicians pick and choose,those who enrich tamil life,according to the tastes of dravidian thugs.
15.Social justice is not accorded to pallars,mutharayars(dominant community in tiruchi,thanjavur) because the dominant communities are non brahmanas.
16.Tamils have a chauvinistic attitudes towards kannada,sanskrit and other indian languages,non vocal kannada minorities in TN-karnataka border,within TN have little voice.(in gudalur,ooty or in hosur,hogennakal,dhenkanikotta).in fact they are written as osur,ogenakkal,thenkanikottai)
17.tamil sounds different from other indian languages because sanskrit words,aksharas,ucchararanais are being removed.
18.I think karu has woken up to the danger of unbridled chauvinism.He is meeting saibaba,mata amritananda mayi.sanskrit aksharas are being used in sun tv.
19.large number of north indians are migrating to madras.karu is mindful of the power of central govt.
20.in short,tamil leaders,writers,'intellectuals' believe they are not indians,except for quotas.They have no respect for the diversity of india.They have been bulldozed into accepting india and they shall undermine it from within.

Dear Pappan:
Good observations. I have been in Chennai for the last two months and I try to speak Tamil whenever I can -- only if they let me!!
One thing I have noticed is that these so-called Tamils cannot pronounce the unique alphabet in the Tamil language - 'zha'!! The always pronounce words such as 'pazham' as 'palam', 'keezhe' (down) as 'keele', 'vazhi' (path) as 'vali'... the list goes on. Brahmins are the one who speak clean Tamil with proper diction.
But isn't this alphabet so unique to the Tamil language and Malayalam alone?
Linguists please enlighten us!!

Infact its the worst in Pagutharivu TV

silverfox said:

Dear Pappan:
Good observations. I have been in Chennai for the last two months and I try to speak Tamil whenever I can -- only if they let me!!
One thing I have noticed is that these so-called Tamils cannot pronounce the unique alphabet in the Tamil language - 'zha'!! The always pronounce words such as 'pazham' as 'palam', 'keezhe' (down) as 'keele', 'vazhi' (path) as 'vali'... the list goes on. Brahmins are the one who speak clean Tamil with proper diction.
But isn't this alphabet so unique to the Tamil language and Malayalam alone?
Linguists please enlighten us!!

Click to expand...

You shud watch the filmi programs in Pagutharivu TV. All the presenters use it as a style to mispronounce palam.

Good observations.

Dear Hariharan, Kudumi, Pappan & Kabali et. al.,

Excellent analysis of situation. My posts for last 15-20 days proposing secular liberal outlook were opposed tooth and nail with bigoted zeal by some members and I started wondering whether my decision to partake in discussions on this site was a correct one or not. Now having gone through the posts especially on this particular thread, I am pleased to find that many other members also support moderation, liberalism and modernism.

A critical appraisal of traditional form of vedic Brahminism is overdue now if TAMBRAMS are to remain as a force to contend with. There are some observations which need to be debated in detail:

1. Some aspects of vedic form of brahminism like cleanliness, personal hygiene, regularity in habits, piety, pursuit of knowledge (Especially in fields like medicine, maths, architecture, astronomy etc...), music are very much desirable activities and must be persued with renewed zeal.

2. Aspects like compassion, justice, freedom, truth etc are universal human values and must continue to be nurtured.

3. Aspects like sticking to manu smriti and other scriptures which preach apartheid in its most heinous form called varnashram (i.e., division of society based on birth), spending countless hours chantings hymns preaching supremacy of brahmanas over others etc. well, I have already expressed my strong reservations about them. The more you swear by them, more you alienate yourself from the rest of the society.

4. Vedas, Brahmanas, Upnishads etc? How many of the present generation Brahmins know what is written therein or have read and understood them? I personally am ignorant of them. Does it make me less Hindu, less brahmin and less intelligent rational human being ? Are they relevant in todays' world?

5. Dietary habits? Well, vegetrarians have every right to remain veg., preach veg. but condemning non-veg people based on holy scriptures or calling them inferior etc. is stupidity.

6. Reservations ? No matter how much you shout from roof top, the present trend in reservations is likely to continue and flourish due to vote bank politics, at least until such time the majority community realises that reservationsis are no longer needed and socio-economic equality has been achieved. Therefore, accept it gracefully and develop abilities which reduces dependance of Brahmins on Govt. run institutions and government services. There is a lot of moolah to be made from the un-reserved sectors of the economy!

Any takers for above said views?

Agree with you

Bingo !!!

Your post is very timely. No wonder you go by the name of Lotus "Quartz".

While totally subscribing to your secular outlook, my only view point is that adopting a secular outlook shouldn't mean that we don't defend our rights when it is infringed. As it is said my freedom should end where your freedom begins. Also i also feel that we should realise that "being secular" is not same as "suffering in silence". I am not advocating any drastic measures here but only imploring that where we are unfairly targetted or our value systems / valid beliefs are discredited, protest, we should. Infact on a different thread, i had couple of exchanges with another forum member, where he felt that by raising our voice against unjust treatment, we are perpeterating hatred. Would love to hear your view point.

Also as a community we should continously emphasise on looking ahead. There is precious little to be gained by continously looking at the past. Ofcourse it suits the agenda of the political forces not to allow the past to be honourably buried.

Only one observation on your point on reservations.

lotus_quartz said:

6. Reservations ? No matter how much you shout from roof top, the present trend in reservations is likely to continue and flourish due to vote bank politics, at least until such time the majority community realises that reservationsis are no longer needed and socio-economic equality has been achieved. Therefore, accept it gracefully and develop abilities which reduces dependance of Brahmins on Govt. run institutions and government services. There is a lot of moolah to be made from the un-reserved sectors of the economy!

Click to expand...

I am afraid this is not going to happen voluntarily. i.e i mean the realisation of the majority that 'merit' cannot be held hostage by caste equations. By this not even for a minute am i suggesting that merit is the sole property of brahmins, but as a nation we cannot afford to take retrograde steps wrt merit. But unfortunately we are !!!!!. Where 'common sense' fails, the 'market forces' will make us pay heavily. In India today we have a "cult" of "merit". The Pro Reservation forces aren't seeing this in this light but are only upset since they are part of the gravy train. But hey, there are no "free passengers" on this train. Everyone is holding the ticket & passport of merit. Not realising this & by killing this golden goose of merit, i am afraid, the growth bubble will burst. Today "merit" is fueling GDP growth but going forward cannot expect GDP to fuel GDP. (GDP - General Danda Pindangal)

Tamizhukkum amudhendru per

silverfox said:

Dear Pappan:
Good observations. I have been in Chennai for the last two months and I try to speak Tamil whenever I can -- only if they let me!!
One thing I have noticed is that these so-called Tamils cannot pronounce the unique alphabet in the Tamil language - 'zha'!! The always pronounce words such as 'pazham' as 'palam', 'keezhe' (down) as 'keele', 'vazhi' (path) as 'vali'... the list goes on. Brahmins are the one who speak clean Tamil with proper diction.
But isn't this alphabet so unique to the Tamil language and Malayalam alone?
Linguists please enlighten us!!

Click to expand...

Silver Fox,

Yes, you are right. To the best of my information, the alphabet 'zha' is unique to tamil & it's correct pronounciation is what identifies a true tamilian. But hey i strongly take exception to your point on chennaites. You don't know the contribution of chennaites to the cause of tamil.

a) Originally there were 3 categories of tamizh - iyal, nadagam & isai tamizhs. Chennai contributed the fourth - "vasai" tamizh. (bemani, somari & the likes)

b) Chennaites are most concerned about the concept of "alphabet strain". That is when you speak the alphabet as it should be spoken, it undergoes enormous stress & strain. For instance "keezhe"...look at stress on "kee"...so mercifully they (earlier i was part of chennai so we) gave relief by shortening it to 'kila'.....So, my point is that the unique pronounciation you hear in tamil is nothing but "Load Balancing"

c) Without such tamizh, where would tamil filmworld go for "gaana" songs ?

piriyidha naina ?

lotus quartz,
1.the universal values you talk about are the ONLY things spoken of in the upanishads.it is not mumbo jumbo.you seem to think,the universal values are a natural trait in all human beings.Believe me,most ideologies and religions are antithetical to any universal values.The brahmanas who are punctillious about acharas and anushtanams,have preserved the most universal and least dogmatic of all religious systems.By religion we mean the fundamental values that sustain life.Our religion has never been static.There are hundreds,if not thousands of brahmanas,who lead lives of purity,austerity and beauty.fulfilling indvidual and social responsibility.There are many members of our community who have reached great heights because of their energy and enthusiasm.When a community is cut down,it is outrageous.We want everyone to grow.but there is something called natural justice.
2.We all know the social forces at work.non-brahmanas,paricularly tamils are also undergoing a national regeneration.What galls us,the standards of social justice are not applied uniformly.This again we realise cannot take place overnight.But we are being painted as demons and our basic rights to education are being violated.It particularly hurts persons of average ability.
3.It is important tamils also realise that certain universal standards of human rights,like freedom of expression and basic human dignity have to be accorded to everyone.
4.tamils cannot coerce non-tamils living within TN borders.They have minimum human rights.i have taken the case of kannadigas in TN.This may look irrelevant.what i am saying is that diversity has to be respected.TN is not an island of its own.They are not making an effort to understand the ethos of india.
5.So many contributors are from bangalore.What if karnataka adopts TN style agitation for sons of the soil.TN is not the only state.
6.In our culture we talk of 'mano-vak-kaya'.dravidian thugs dont care.There must be correlation between precept and practice.this is singularly absent among dravidian leaders.
7.Tamil is ancient,perhaps more than sanskrit.I respect the unique literary ethos.But tamils should also respect other languages like sanskrit,kannada.Kannadigas have no problem with sanskrit.Why am i bringing karnataka.Sometimes myths tell us a lot.During Sri Rama's time,Hanuman and sugriva lived around bellary.Ravana was evil, while vibhishana was sattvika.This happened long time back.
8.We value the vedas and upanishads for its universal values,though couched in a particular form.Tamil literature is about 2000 years old,and came after the epics.It was a response to the specific conditions.While respecting thirukurral,the literature of tamils belong to a later period and is age specific.
9.smartha brahmanas do not consider tamil literature as cannonical.Fine literature has also been produced in other indian languages.Sri vaishnavas consider prabhandams as divine,but some alwars(tirumazhisai and tondaradipodi) have attacked siva.They have ignored amba,sri subramanya or even atma vichara.
10.Vedic literature advocates karma,bhakti and Jnana according to the competency of the aspirant.There is no sectarian conflict and atma vichara is
encouraged for advanced aspirants.
11.i cant find merit in "araikurais" advocating rationalism,while causing injustice to others on the basis of half baked literature.

Pappan and lotus quartz

Excellent writeups. Just to add, this anti-brahmin tendency rose because Brahmins were able to learn English and thus get most of the government positions the British offered. This created a lot of envy and jealousy among the hitherto powerful backward castes.

See how EVR pus it in his newspaper Viduthalai in 1956 "Rajaji and his
father and his granddad and his race come to our homes talk
of thithi, thivasam, karumadhi, kaledupu (rituals related
with death, in order to ensure that the dead ancestor reaches
heaven) and if we had not put money on their plates could
they have become India’s Prime Minister, Governor
General, President? " [Viduthalai, 05-10-1956].

So what caused their hearts to burn was simple envy and jealousy. The poor Brahmans who were dependent on these dominant castes for their living, suddenly became top government officials and EVR and his friends could not stomach it.

Ramki

Hope this clarifies your point !

Well, suppose we start seeing things in a new light ? The fact remains that excepting for admissions to government run educational institutions and government services, Brahmins and all others are treated as equal in every respect. The 'state' does not make any discrimination against brahmins while allotting land plots (on payment basis, of course), treating poor in government hospitals, reserving train tickets, issuing passports and a whole lot of other activities which involve people to state interaction. The courts do not make any discriminatory judgement against brahmins. So, there is absolutely no need to 'suffer in silence' in any aspect excepting the issue of reservations. The reservations policy has the tacit as well as explicit approval of the constitution and the courts. Probably, the authors of our constitution consciously approved reservations for a limited period in the larger interest of the indian society while sacrificing the short term interests of meritorius candidates from FC.

So far as insulting portrayal of brahmins in movies etc is concerned, the issue should be examined from freedom of expression, directives to censor board and legal standpoints only.

hariharan1972 said:

While totally subscribing to your secular outlook, my only view point is that adopting a secular outlook shouldn't mean that we don't defend our rights when it is infringed. As it is said my freedom should end where your freedom begins. Also i also feel that we should realise that "being secular" is not same as "suffering in silence". I am not advocating any drastic measures here but only imploring that where we are unfairly targetted or our value systems / valid beliefs are discredited, protest, we should. Infact on a different thread, i had couple of exchanges with another forum member, where he felt that by raising our voice against unjust treatment, we are perpeterating hatred. Would love to hear your view point.

Click to expand...

silverfox said:

Dear Pappan:
Good observations. I have been in Chennai for the last two months and I try to speak Tamil whenever I can -- only if they let me!!
One thing I have noticed is that these so-called Tamils cannot pronounce the unique alphabet in the Tamil language - 'zha'!! The always pronounce words such as 'pazham' as 'palam', 'keezhe' (down) as 'keele', 'vazhi' (path) as 'vali'... the list goes on. Brahmins are the one who speak clean Tamil with proper diction.
But isn't this alphabet so unique to the Tamil language and Malayalam alone?
Linguists please enlighten us!!

Click to expand...

sir- the irony is that these fellows who are struggling to speak in good tamil are, according to the karunanidhi muthuvelar 'pure' tamils, whereas brahmins, who speak 'pure' tamil, are 'foreign invaders'!!!!!!!!

Mr Pappan,

I quite enjoy reading your posts. However can you leave space between points. It makes reading easier. Thanks

Hi Lotus Quartz
An interesting note. Pardon me. But I am not sure if you are a TN resident or not. If you are, I am surprised that you seem to have missed all the discrimination and abuses that are showered upon Brahmins day in and day out. For example, do you know that there are no tamil brahmin MLAs in DMK or PMK ? They never put up a Brahmin candidate even in Brahmin dominated areas.
Whenever Mr.MK and DMK are in power they have made certain to harass TamilBrahmins. Many of my older relatives still talk about the first DMK regime in late 60s when DMK goons went around cutting Brahmins tufts and harassing TamilBrahmin women. Why, even when MK came back to power in 1996, in a Book-release function he said "Indha nool andha noolai arukkum" meaning "this book will cut the poonal". His friend Veeramani taking a cue, organized a "Poonal Aruppu Porattam' in which many Brahmin's poonal and tuft was cut. MK who was the CM and Home minister did nothing except issue an appeal to Veeramani to stop it. "An appeal" !!! Can it happen to any other community in TN ? Even now, when EVRs statue was damaged in Srirangam, all/90% of those who were attacked or had their properties destroyed were TamilBrahmins. What does this tell you ?

To set the records straight, reservations are not only in government run educational institutions but even in private educational institutions. Reservation undermines Brahmins in many ways and it is designed to do so. For ages, Brahmins in general have been concentrating only on education (in general) and there are a very few Brahmins doing businees or sports. Cutting off education to Brahmins is cutting off oxygen to their lively hood. Brahmins are discriminated against in government jobs. Even for private jobs we need education and by cutting it off MK and his friends are ensuring that Brahmins cant earn a decent living.

Reg your comment on discrimination in providing government services, wait for a while. It is on its way. Once the reservation in private jobs take effect, it wont be too long before reservation in government services is enforced. Just a matter of time.

The authors of the constitution never approved reservations perpetually. That too reservations were only envisaged for SCs/STs because of centuries of social discriminations. Reservations for BCs was not even contemplated.

Portraying TamilBrahmins in a bad light in movies is not freedom of expression. How come it is always a TamilBrahmin who is the lawyer/chamcha/advisor of the villain or how come the hero always has to fall in love with a TamilBrahmin Girl ? Believe me I have nothing against such love affairs. But when 9 out ot 10 movies have the same concept I am left to wonder whether or not it is freedom of expression. May be it is simply because we as a community are totally disorganized and do not object being portrayed badly. Let us just think what happened to Maniratnam for depicting a muslim girl falling in love with a hindu guy or to another director for showing a thevar girl falling in love with a Dalit hero? Where did freedom of expression go in these instances? In short, the reservations and discriminations will continue and grow unless we organize ourselves and act as a community.

Ramki

lotus_quartz said:

Well, suppose we start seeing things in a new light ? The fact remains that excepting for admissions to government run educational institutions and government services, Brahmins and all others are treated as equal in every respect. The 'state' does not make any discrimination against brahmins while allotting land plots (on payment basis, of course), treating poor in government hospitals, reserving train tickets, issuing passports and a whole lot of other activities which involve people to state interaction. The courts do not make any discriminatory judgement against brahmins. So, there is absolutely no need to 'suffer in silence' in any aspect excepting the issue of reservations. The reservations policy has the tacit as well as explicit approval of the constitution and the courts. Probably, the authors of our constitution consciously approved reservations for a limited period in the larger interest of the indian society while sacrificing the short term interests of meritorius candidates from FC.

So far as insulting portrayal of brahmins in movies etc is concerned, the issue should be examined from freedom of expression, directives to censor board and legal standpoints only.

Click to expand...

Dear Ramki:
A very good posting. I could relate to those atrocities in the 60's; as a boy growing up, I was terrified by those goondas and I was afraid to even go to school.
Lotus_quartz was born and raised in the North (correct me if I am wrong, lotus_quartz); therefore, he might not have had to go thru the trials and tribulations that the Tamil Nadu Brahmins went thru and are still suffering.

It is true that I was brought up away from TN, grew up in an environment where people welcomed odd outsiders from various states with open arms, never faced any discrimination of any kind, accepted 15 % + 7.5 % reservations like everybody else. Matter of factly, in North, Brahmins are still respected members of society not withstanding awakening of BC,OBC etc. I am now on tenure posting in TN. Found people speaking difficult version of Tamil which was not spoken in our house. Otherwise, in general, people here are quite intelligent, efficient and surprisingly found many shop attendants helpful to hindi speaking people.

I suppose TAMBRAMS have all the more reasons to acquire an all India outlook, be prepared to venture out to any place where opportunities arise and not remain idelogically or emotionally stuck to their past in various towns and villages in TN if the local society has turned against them, for whatever reasons. Lets get the best out of the funda of Vasudhaiv Kutumbam!! It suits our convenience. All it requires is an additional trait - less ideological stubbornness and more flexibility and adaptability.

silverfox said:

Dear Ramki:
A very good posting. I could relate to those atrocities in the 60's; as a boy growing up, I was terrified by those goondas and I was afraid to even go to school.
Lotus_quartz was born and raised in the North (correct me if I am wrong, lotus_quartz); therefore, he might not have had to go thru the trials and tribulations that the Tamil Nadu Brahmins went thru and are still suffering.

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[quote=lotus_quartz;4240]I suppose TAMBRAMS have all the more reasons to acquire an all India outlook, be prepared to venture out to any place where opportunities arise and not remain idelogically or emotionally stuck to their past in various towns and villages in TN if the local society has turned against them, for whatever reasons. Lets get the best out of the funda of Vasudhaiv Kutumbam!! It suits our convenience. All it requires is an additional trait - less ideological stubbornness and more flexibility and adaptability.

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Are you suggesting that people run away from their hometowns, as the solution to discrimination? There has been an exodus of TN Brahmins since the 60-70s. Most went to the US in search of greener pastures, and others scattered to other parts of India in the hope that they would be treated fairly and better, than they were in TN. Perhaps your own parents went to the north in search of better life - not just economically but one that will enable them to live with dignity, without being persecuted, taunted, humiliated, and discriminated against by the educational system and labour market, and by the society, because they were brahmins. But will how long will this ‘’running way’ last?

The tide of migration flow from the west to India has reversed in recent years, with many Indians preferring to return to India, because they feel more comfortable in their own culture rather than living as second-class citizens in western nations, and facing racism, and social and professional discrimination. In fact, it is ironic that many Tamil Brahmins will contest and challenge racism and professional and social discrimination and persecution of any kind in the US, and fight tooth and nail for their rights to practice their religion and culture, receive professional recognition and get promotion, etc., but will suggest that Brahmins in TN run away to other states, or countries, because of persecution in TN. Further, with the clamping down on immigration in many western nations, especially in Europe, it is becoming harder for many Indians in general to look to the west for an escape – nonwhites in general are beginning to be regarded as not welcomed in many western countries. Perhaps, if Brahmins had stayed back in TN and fought back against discrimination, the situation might not have gotten out of control as it has these decades.

Besides, why should anyone have to be forced to leave their own society, culture and homeland, and run somewhere else, especially if they prefer to stay in their own native place? If a Tamil Brahmin desires to stay in TN, because that’s where his roots and history are, why should he be forced to give it all up and migrate? It is his birthright to live and practice his faith in his native place, should he desire or choose to stay there. The fight for survival, recognition and respect by the Brahmins in TN is understandable, and needs to be defended. Running away is NOT an option for everyone. It is tragic that more and more Tamil Brahmins would prefer to go and settle in other states in India to escape persecution than live in Tamil Nadu. Brahmin communities in other Indian states on the other hand are able to live in their own states with security, dignity and respect, and follow their lifestyle without being a target for discrimination and persecution by the state and the society. Why shouldn't a Tamil Brahmin have the same right.

I fully empathize with the plight of brahmins in TN. What I suggested was one of the several practical possibilities that could be considered. Well, India is yet to mature into a society where justice and liberty are a matter of born right to all citizens. As of now, the justice is being viewed in the backdrop of social justice and liberty is captive to political convenience of the ruling elite. The ruling elite has its own vote bank computations. Do you foresee any respite in the near future ?

aditya said:

Are you suggesting that people run away from their hometowns, as the solution to discrimination? There has been an exodus of TN Brahmins since the 60-70s. Most went to the US in search of greener pastures, and others scattered to other parts of India in the hope that they would be treated fairly and better, than they were in TN. Perhaps your own parents went to the north in search of better life - not just economically but one that will enable them to live with dignity, without being persecuted, taunted, humiliated, and discriminated against by the educational system and labour market, and by the society, because they were brahmins. But will how long will this ‘’running way’ last?

The tide of migration flow from the west to India has reversed in recent years, with many Indians preferring to return to India, because they feel more comfortable in their own culture rather than living as second-class citizens in western nations, and facing racism, and social and professional discrimination. In fact, it is ironic that many Tamil Brahmins will contest and challenge racism and professional and social discrimination and persecution of any kind in the US, and fight tooth and nail for their rights to practice their religion and culture, receive professional recognition and get promotion, etc., but will suggest that Brahmins in TN run away to other states, or countries, because of persecution in TN. Further, with the clamping down on immigration in many western nations, especially in Europe, it is becoming harder for many Indians in general to look to the west for an escape – nonwhites in general are beginning to be regarded as not welcomed in many western countries. Perhaps, if Brahmins had stayed back in TN and fought back against discrimination, the situation might not have gotten out of control as it has these decades.

Besides, why should anyone have to be forced to leave their own society, culture and homeland, and run somewhere else, especially if they prefer to stay in their own native place? If a Tamil Brahmin desires to stay in TN, because that’s where his roots and history are, why should he be forced to give it all up and migrate? It is his birthright to live and practice his faith in his native place, should he desire or choose to stay there. The fight for survival, recognition and respect by the Brahmins in TN is understandable, and needs to be defended. Running away is NOT an option for everyone. It is tragic that more and more Tamil Brahmins would prefer to go and settle in other states in India to escape persecution than live in Tamil Nadu. Brahmin communities in other Indian states on the other hand are able to live in their own states with security, dignity and respect, and follow their lifestyle without being a target for discrimination and persecution by the state and the society. Why shouldn't a Tamil Brahmin have the same right.

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The problem is tamils are different from other indians.Tamil is ancient and not derived from sanskrit.It is SVAYAMBU.Many tamils object to our fondness of english.Not that they dont learn english.They feel we have no loyalty to tamil.we should teach our kids tamil.many brahmanas have sanskrit or hindi as their second language in CBSE schools.Nothing wrong with that.But also learn tamil at home.To write particularly.

I am not supporting tamil nationalism.just pointing the reality.
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Even tamil religion is markedly different.The poor worship in mariamman temple.The tamil God par excellence is murugan.There is a gulf between smarthas and saivas.

also between smarthas and sri vaishnavas.Iyengars dont worship murugan,mariamman and iswara.but they consider prabhandams as divine.Tamil liturgy has an important role in their anushtanam.The temple priests in vaishnava temples are closely integrated with the vaishnava community.The theology of sri vaishnavism is closely linked with the geography of Tamil nadu.Srirangam is "Bhuloka Vaikuntam".80 of the 108 divya deshas are in TN.The alwars and acharyas are all from TN.The poetry of alwars is a celebration of Tamil and Vishnu bhakti.

Saiva vellalas are the guardians of Tamil literary heritage.

What about smarthas?Which include vedantins of the advaita school?

The smarthas have not been enthusiastic supporters of Tamil nationalism.In the olden days ,there was no political entity called tamil nadu.Only cholas and pandyas.

even today gounders are found only in erode and kovai,vanniyars in northern districts.vanniyars are a significant percentage in nadu naadu ie the tract between thondai mandalam and the chola heartland.ie from tindivanam to mayavaram.mukkulothars are found in chola and pandya territories.vellalas are significant in thondai mandalam and chola mandalam,though found in other parts.vellalas are not found in kongu naadu.(coimbatore)

In TN,vellalas are guardians of tamil culture.Thevars and gounders support them.Vellalas are found in significant numbers in fertile plains of thondai mandalam and chola naadu.Their roots are in TN and their vision does not go beyond TN.Thevars,gounders,vanniyars have an even less limited vision extending up to their pocket boroughs.DMK is offering an alternate vision for tamils.We must understand their motives.BTW,many vellalas are staunch vegetarians.

In other parts of india,the regional languages do not offer such an alternate vision.

Reasons for the deep-rooted hatred Reply to Thread

1. What is that DMK is offering as an alternate vision for tamils. What is it we must understand their motives?.BTW.

2. The Dravidians are being defining themselves as all tamils minus brahmins of tamilnadu i.e., non-brahmins.

3. What about the harijans of tamil nadu who are still being ill-treated by the tamilians. Can we now call the tamils as non-harijans like they call us as non-brahmins?

4. Can we now take up the cause of harijans and work with them to remove their sufferings at the hands of non-harijans.

Valid point

gurumurthyji said:

1. What is that DMK is offering as an alternate vision for tamils. What is it we must understand their motives?.BTW.

2. The Dravidians are being defining themselves as all tamils minus brahmins of tamilnadu i.e., non-brahmins.

3. What about the harijans of tamil nadu who are still being ill-treated by the tamilians. Can we now call the tamils as non-harijans like they call us as non-brahmins?

4. Can we now take up the cause of harijans and work with them to remove their sufferings at the hands of non-harijans.

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Gurumurthyji sir,

This is a very valid point. The issue is that the Brahmin leadership has to reach out to the Dalits. Till such time we are seen as very orthodox & 'playing-by-the-rule-book' guys, this may be difficult.

The Dravida leadership has very cleverly, successfully brainwashed them into believing that a population of 3% has been denying them opportunities ignoring the fact that it is their leadership which has been in power for the last several decades. The free doles - TV, Gas stove, land - etc.. are part of a carefully planned strategy by the Dravida clan that the underprivileged should always be in the position of "seekers".

Whether improving their position in the social ladder with the help of free doles represents progress - This is something that the Dalit leadership should soul-search & conclude.