Can the Guru-Shishya Parampara be relevant in today's world?

Dear All,

The Guru-Shishya tradition has been the backbone of many generations in the past. It has honed several great icons in our country. However, in the last 100-200 years this tradition has gradually diminished.

It is natural for people of today's world to question anything before acceptance.

In the same way, can we question why not revive this tradition?
In the same way, can we question why the English style of education should be be continued?

Many times the chain of events which help one's life to prosper materially, blinds us from the very fact that education, which is the base for our prosperity today may have its own flip sides.

Just like any constitution can be amended, just like any organization can be restructured, just like any modern fertilizer or medicine can be found later be hazardous, similarly there needs to be a probe into seeing whether our current educational system really over powers the inherent strengths that were available in the Guru-Shishya tradition.

We may well remember the modern educational system was after all brought in during the British rule. So why not take a re-look at it? There might be some amicable solution - at least a blend of two to help the current and future generations to benefit from the perspective change that will come over our minds during the course of discussion in this thread.

SV-ji,

Always had difficulty fitting into regular school. Am in favour of reviving the guru-shishya tradition and traditional patshalas settings. Instead of basing such things on caste, i hope the tradition of accepting anyone who goes to such a teacher with a natural inclination is accepted.

Yes, the slow but steady infiltration of english has led to the erosion of the Guru-Shishya parampara...

Each shishya is unique; each Guru is too... hence, this form of imparting knowledge is unique to every individual and hence, the impact on the student would be tremendous.

Moreover, by accepting the english language, calendar as the common standard, we have degraded our customs and traditions... yes, the problem is that there are a plethora of options...

I, strongly favour this as it would help us gain true knowledge, contentment and true happiness...

Regards

Iam reproducing Maccaulay's speech in the British Parliament about the skulduggery practised by them to concoct Indian History and to introduce English education to destroy our culture and values.In the light of the same it is high time the intelligentia impressed on the Government to undo the system of education and rewrite Indian History.In such circumstances it is a great suggestion to revive Gurukula system.




"I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation."

Hello suvarchas, I have come across this purport (Macaulay's observation)... but how authentic is this...? surely, the British parliament must have some recording of the same?

But anyway, even if it were indeed true, the british are surely not going to acknowledge that...!!!

We are talking about two kinds of education here.

1. The secular education where one is taught secular subjects. Some fundamentals of religion is also included. Compulsory for all.

2. The spiritual/religious education. Here one is taught about Hinduism and also given guidance for choosing a path. This education is only for the seekers and not compulsory. This also needs a certain bent of mind on the part of the student.

The guru shishya tradition comes only for the spiritual/religious education. This was what was envisaged even in the early days. The Kula education was always taught by the father to the son. Like carpentry, commerce etc. Since the Brahmin's kula education was religious he went to the Gurukulam.

Even here the Gurukula teacher was only called an Acharya and not a Guru. Sage Sandipani was the teacher of Krishna and Balarama. They learnt the sixtyfour arts in sixtyfour days.

Now a days we tend to mix up Acharyas with Gurus. All Acharyas are not Gurus. They are Gurus of some people and Acharyas of others.

The draw back with the Guru/Shishya tradition is that the number of students are limited since the Guru has to pay individual attention to every student. Dronacharya could not have run a School for Warfare.

The Guru/Shishya tradition is very much prevalent in the higher echelons of western education. When you want to do research, you are attached a Professor who is your friend, Philosopher and Guide. On him depends your progress. In science subjects you are always known as the student of so and so. This system is very strict in Oxford and Cambridge. The Professors never chose to guide anyone till they were convinced about the student. Of course there are dilutions now.

Even in jobs we have a system of Mentors who guide the newby.

Valid observations Shri Nacchi, but there have been Gurus in all branches in the vedic times... so to say that the G-S parampara is fit only for spiritual and moral subjects would be misleading.

Maybe what Shri Sridhar could have meant was that the style, language and the emphasis should be more indian than western ie., on the lines of the G-S tradition... why not our system rather than aping another???

Good to see an inclination towards the Guru-Shishya tradition and a heads up to explore it even in today's world.

It is also good to note Nacchinarkiniyan's views, where he clearly analyses the pros and cons of Guru-Shishya tradition and points out differences between a spiritual/religious education and the kula thozhil based education. On the lighter side...quoting his comments, "Dronacharya could not have run a School for Warfare". Still Drona was able to give the best of training for at least 106 students, including Pandavas, Kauravas, and Ekalavya (self-styled-iconised learning). Of which we still remember atleast 7 to 8 names for their special skills. Even today the average classroom has only 40 to 50 students with one teacher attending per hour.

The actual difficulty would be in the ability to provide quality education (across various subjects) through one single teacher to these 40-50 students right from a very tender age till their mid-teens.

In the same lines if we could have just a 100 teachers across each state in India, we could still have a few thousand outstanding students to start with. I would consider it a humble beginning....towards a great future.

We should gather many ideas from each person who posts their views here, and try to build a list of objectives - long term and short term. Then a design as to how this can be structured for today's world. Then an implementation plan as to how this can be started/revived. Once we can contribute to these ideas, it would be open to all in this forum, for current and future visitors to go through it. This could eventually inspire at least a few persons to work towards it being a reality.

In our village all Brahmin students had tuition teachers upto high school level. Then we had tuition teachers for Tamil, Hindi and Sanskrit. It did not matter what your I.Q is. These tuition teachers who were mostly retired teachers had 10 to 15 students and gave personal attention. We learnt mostly from these tuition teachers. They made us. And almost everyone remembers them with gratitude.

In Pune they had a system of Tuition classes. Everyone attended them. Even the university ranking student. This was at the college level. Then Pune was known for its exellent educational system. Mostly Brahmins.

With ideas from people starting to come through, I would like to raise a few questions.

If we say like what Nacchinarkiniyan points out, that there are still traces of this Guru-Shishya relationship in higher education (english type for sciences or other) and even in tuition classes, then why do we generally agree the old tradition is now diminished?

If we agree the Guru-Shishya tradition is now diminished. What was the essence of the Guru-Shishya tradition? Was it the content or structure or style? Was it all three? If so what was the content. what was the structure and what was the style? How can we revive it? And how can it be made to work blending with today's world?

G-S is still existing in India.All the Maths are examples of it alive and kicking.

sb

Yes SV-ji, me too wud think the old tradition is not diminished. As regards content or structure, we feel that the vedas are all about spiritualism, but they are not fully about that.

Here is a criss-cross of what vedic literature contained (so we have a good idea of what was really taught by those seers):

1) Shatapatha brahmana (SB) talks about smoke in space, state of mortality, state of instability of planets, expansion of universe, heat waves, law of mutual stability and heat component of types of cosmic rays.

SB also give number of stars in our galaxy as approx. 10,800,000. It says the Anmaprishni: matter is responsible for the sun and that it contains vidyut or electricity. It calls the centre of the earth as agnigarbha prithvi (earth core as very hot) and says the earth is round in shape.

The aitreya brahmana, shatapatha brahmana and yajur also say that the sun is the densest seat of apah. Rigved and Aitreya Brahmana talks about ayasmayim or lohayuktam or magnetic centre of the earth.

2) Rigved (5.59.7) and Taittiriya Samhita (5.6.4) talk about cosmic expansion from Apah: to Agni: to vayu: vayamsi of heat waves emitting light so that the earth shines at night.

3) Jaimini Brahman (JB) talks about cosmic rays called marichya: or aurora or corpuscles of light. Even in Bhagvad Gita, Krishna says that "of the Maruts, I am Marichi". Rigved refers to magnetic power of the Maruts as ayodanshtra as says all electro-magnetism in space is due to the maruts (what exactly are these "maruts" the books are not clear). JB also talks about laws of pressure (sampindan), atomic friction, atomic nuclei, etc.

4) Rigved differentiates b/w dust in inter-stellar space and dust on earth and says the maruta: type of cosmic rays do not carry dust. It also mentions dhumketu: (comets). One interesting verse in the rigved is: Vyastabhna rodsi vishnavaytay dadarthaprithivimbhito myukhaih: - talking about vishnu as firmly fixing the earth with pegs around it ! (seems funny but authors are not clear what they are conveying). Prior to that some verses talk about instability of the world's early stages.

5) Yajurved says earth moves around sun. Yajur also talks about rudra as god of electricity and as pitarmarutam, father of the maruts (rudrasya sunvah) - again, it wud be so nice if these books can be clear about what are maruts. Yajur also says maruts are rishadas: since they consume or burn up dead particles.

6) Atharvaved talks about many plants and herbs, intruments for surgery, injections (suchibhed or antahkshep), describes diseases of the eye, ear, nose, throat, elaborates upon surgery (shalyapahatrakam), toxicology (vishagadvairodhikaprashmanam - whew! long word), psychotherapy (bhoota vidya), paediatrics (kaumarbhutyakam), rejuvenation (rasayanam) and virilification (vajikaranam).

Apart from various therapies it (being the repository of ayurveda) also has verses on water-therapy, treatment using sunlight or chromotherapy, therapy using gems, prescribes purification of the air thru yajna to remove contamination of germs. Germs are called atri, pisacha, yatu, rakshasa, and so on (wonder if they are specifying types of bacteria). It seems that rakshasa does not mean demon (atleast not here). Kaushitaki Brahmana specifies asrigbhajanih vairakshamsi or blood sucking germs as rakshasa. Agni is prescribed a lot for destroying germs. Germs are called yatudhana and kimidina (sounds similar to tamil kirimi).

Atharva also has treatises on veterinary sciences like horses (ashvayurved), elephants (hasthyayurved), cows (gavayurved), hawks (shyankayurved) and talks about dairy-farming, gold, gems, soma filteration and chemistry. Rigved has a pavamana soma suktha praising soma - they knew distillation, fermentation, crystalization and such stuff.

Atharva has remedies for fever, sciatica, skin diseases, eye diseases, sterility, leprosy....it even prescribes birth control or family planning using a herb but that herb is not known (there is a verse, exclamation by a man, celebrating removing of strength to become impotent).

Everyone knows about vedic mathematics, and all.

So, Sri Sridhar-ji...does it not seem like the "ways" have changed but the pursuit really has not? The scenario, the style has changed, but the content has not? We are still living the tradition of the vid, albeit without the end objective of immortality the spiritual way.

Regards.

And ofcourse apart from vedic mathematics, there is martial arts, knowledge of anatomy, rendering a limb parlyzed, and what not...the list is endless...

Actually there are seers who say god is reducable into numbers and into mathematics, but we are thinking science is oppsed to spiritual stuff...actually they seem to have come to the end objective of immortality the scientific way...just that probably the vid of creator-creation-created is so complex, that it tends to be called 'divine' (??)...

Am kind of fantasizing abt what i wud think for an ideal veda-pathshala, probably something like this (?):

a) Preserve and teach all that there was in the vedas (includes matial arts and stuff like archery, all forms of physical training coupled with the knowledge of arts, music, etc). Not restrict to vedis texts alone, but also various customs, etc.

b) Teach vedanta, various philosphies, spiritually guide a student to maturity.

Perhaps there cud be diff teachers in the same gurukulam. Or one cud combine it with the current system of going to regular school but also go to a vedpatshala after school hours...

[btw, am looking for a teacher to learn philosophies formally at this age...am old i know...but trishna (thrist) is there...for starters it wud great if there were tutors offering online lessons to begin with].

>>for starters it wud great if there were tutors offering online lessons to begin with<<

Shrimathi H H

Maybe we could start a seperate thread,and maybe people like Shri Seshadri,Shri tbs,Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,M M ,you........KRS........etc can be tutors....i will sign up as student aka sishya

sb

s007bala said:

>>for starters it wud great if there were tutors offering online lessons to begin with<<

Shrimathi H H

Maybe we could start a seperate thread,and maybe people like Shri Seshadri,Shri tbs,Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,M M ,you........KRS........etc can be tutors....i will sign up as student aka sishya

sb

Click to expand...

Am going delirious... that somebody wants me as a tutor... :der:

I am a eccentric tutor as well as a disciple... coz anytime I could start contradicting myself...:boxing:

omigod :faint:

s-bala-ji,

i want to assure you that i am very highly unstable, rejected by one teacher in the past, with former history of wandering off without notice :drum: :bolt:

post marriage, my husband the rock brought stability but being asked to teach is toooo much :jaw:

Shri Suresh, you have seen the effect, of your statements, on me and shrimati here...

Do you still think that you are a shishya? :wave:

I am an Aquarian by Sun Signs Shri Seshadri & Shrimathi H H.Aquarians are either geniuses or crazy.Now you know where to place me.Hope you guys have a couch waiting for me,to start your respective therapies.

sb

Does everyone here in the first place agree or dis-agree about continuance of the current education system?

If anyone feels Guru-Shishya tradition was much different. Please explain.

SV-ji,

Honestly, am not sure. The current education system has its share of flaws.

Children are burdened with homework, tutions, scores matter the most, they are expected to be more driven than they are able to be..many times tehre is also little time for extra-curricular activites..

Yet, how can this system be removed...

Truly the guru-shisya tradition might have been different. The students stayed in the guru's ashram like a hostel, they were under the loving care and constant guidance from the guru and his wife...perhaps therefore came the statement mata, pita, guru, daivam..the serene setting of an ashram surround by lush forests made its difference...

Yet, how can we envisage such a scenario today...

happyhindu said:

And ofcourse apart from vedic mathematics, there is martial arts, knowledge of anatomy, rendering a limb parlyzed, and what not...the list is endless...

Actually there are seers who say god is reducable into numbers and into mathematics, but we are thinking science is oppsed to spiritual stuff...actually they seem to have come to the end objective of immortality the scientific way...just that probably the vid of creator-creation-created is so complex, that it tends to be called 'divine' (??)...

Am kind of fantasizing abt what i wud think for an ideal veda-pathshala, probably something like this (?):

a) Preserve and teach all that there was in the vedas (includes matial arts and stuff like archery, all forms of physical training coupled with the knowledge of arts, music, etc). Not restrict to vedis texts alone, but also various customs, etc.

b) Teach vedanta, various philosphies, spiritually guide a student to maturity.

Perhaps there cud be diff teachers in the same gurukulam. Or one cud combine it with the current system of going to regular school but also go to a vedpatshala after school hours...

[btw, am looking for a teacher to learn philosophies formally at this age...am old i know...but trishna (thrist) is there...for starters it wud great if there were tutors offering online lessons to begin with].

Click to expand...

hi all,
i can help u in philosophies/ manu dharma shastra........LIFE IS LEARNING PROCESS..........NEVER ENDS.......EVERYBODY IS SISHYA HERE..
SHASTRAS ARE LIKE OCEAN........NEVER ENDINGS.......i had guru shishya
parampara learning in my childhood for vedic studies...even guru likes
us more than their own children......i got advice from my teacher(guru).....
NEVER STOP LEARNING........ so i can help u.. as much as i can......
thank u for sb sir/sesh sir/ nacchi sir.........i learned sanskrit for 35 years.... but still learning...

regards
tbs

happyhindu said:

SV-ji,

Honestly, am not sure. The current education system has its share of flaws.

Children are burdened with homework, tutions, scores matter the most, they are expected to be more driven than they are able to be..many times tehre is also little time for extra-curricular activites..

Yet, how can this system be removed...

Truly the guru-shisya tradition might have been different. The students stayed in the guru's ashram like a hostel, they were under the loving care and constant guidance from the guru and his wife...perhaps therefore came the statement mata, pita, guru, daivam..the serene setting of an ashram surround by lush forests made its difference...

Yet, how can we envisage such a scenario today...

Click to expand...

Your words about Guru's ashram were nostalgic, truly children would love it. Yes, we still need to find how this would be feasible in today's world. The goal should include that the children when they come out of their learning should be able to make a great living in what ever chosen line or line of expertise. It could be a constructive exercise for all us here to try and make that a feasible one.

There is an institution which tries to run according to this tradition. I used to know the school well. Many of my family members including my children have attended this school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Valley_School

Nacchinarkiniyan said:

There is an institution which tries to run according to this tradition. I used to know the school well. Many of my family members including my children have attended this school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Valley_School

Click to expand...

hi naachi sir,
i know rishi valley school very well...in fact i was trying to teach there
very long time back...i think it is AP ..near madanapalli chitoor dist?


regards

Wasn't Rishi Valley School part of Jiddu Krishnamurthy Foundation?

sb