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The Great Hindu Tradition

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Pujya Swami Dayananda Saraswati has release recently a book in English titled THE GREAT HINDU TRADITION (an insight into Vedic priciples, Rituals and Heritage). The book is authored by Sri Sarma Sastrigal of Chennai.

What you learn from the book:

1. About Vedas
2. Our revered Maharishis
3. Importance of Kushmanda Homa
4. Our Significant rituals like Vivaha, Upanayana
5. Anthyeshti (Apara karma)
6. Sraaddha
7. Hundreds of FAQs on our customs and rituals
8. Significance of Darbhai, etc etc

Kanchi Acharyal Blessed the Book in the Srimukham as:..This book in English seems to be an encyclopedia on the rituals of our Sanatana Dharma. It is observed that Sarma Sastrigal has taken great strain to make the younger generation to realise the intricacies of the Vedic liway of life

For copies one can email to the author at [email protected]
 
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@ Starter - I post this most respectfully, I don't which to diverge this topic. Just give something to ponder upon.

Does this answer the question as to how we let our society fall and our name come into such hate from others (like in TN state), and mark a solution? I am interested in our traditions, I mean no disrespect to this man and would like to know his views.

But the points remain that we are to attest our tradition as that which respects people and yet this is nowhere close to being done: Check Times of India (TOI) page 17 of today (Feb. 1 2011). "Dalits held for temple entry stir".

Sure, what I am thinking in my head while reading that is: "This was unnecessary. After all in Mumbai where I live nobody tried making an entry into an Agiari (Fire-temple of the Parsees) where only they are allowed". But then I understand the nature of the protest, its not really religious but about the issue of respect. I do believe that all people should be given their space. What is relevant to this protest and why it happened actually however is because Dalits haven't been given respect - one of the ways of which is barring entry to a place of worship: this is a mark of that protest. All people speak of the greatness of their own traditions - the world should acknowledge it and we should be able to prove it. My personal question to all is: Does this issue of Dalits being barred become relevant to you while speaking of how great Hindu tradition is?

Today we use this forum software built by Americans, Internet by Americans, our powered devices have origins in the Western world. Lets ask ourselves why we didn't create the world and let it be granted to us. Is that question relevant to anyone here?

I encourage to get this book and understand his points - it may be an insight to our tradition. But what becomes important to me also is that we shouldn't sit accepting it or feeling proud because a great calamity has happened which we are largely blind to. We have fallen without having the spirit to question and be pragmatic/practical in approaches. Members, please ask yourself why the "rational movement" of the atheist brigade in TN prides itself of is anti-brahmin? What have we done as a community to allay ideas that we are "irrational/ritualistic" etc? Hardly anything. Truth however of the past is that it was brahmins (the actual varna, not strictly the present day communities) who had the legacy of science, language, mathematics, philosophy etc. Where this has been lost in tradition is a good question.

Lastly Sri Sarma Sasthrigal, please know that I appreciate you posting about this book and I think we all should indeed read it. I didn't mean to sound condescending, just that I would like a spirit of thinking. When speaking of how great a tradition is, that becomes important IMO.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Namaskaram,

May i know where can i buy this book? is it available in Giri traders chennai?

Thanks

Thank you for the response. The book is available at Jayalakshmi Indological Book House, Apparswamy koil street (opp. sanskrit college) Mylapore at Rs. 200.
Or else you can forward cheque or DD drawn in favour Sarma Sastrigal for Rs.250 and send it to Godavari Apartments, 167, Lake View Road, West Mambalam, Cheenai 600033 and I can send it by post.

Best,
Sarma Sastrigal
 
After all in Mumbai where I live nobody tried making an entry into an Agiari (Fire-temple of the Parsees) where only they are allowed".
Parsees belong to a seperate religion. Within Zoarashtrianism there is no caste difference. One cannot go to Mecca if one is not a muslim. Here the difference is religion. Not caste. There can be no reason to debar anyone from temple entry on the grounds of caste. Ofcourse if one is not a hindu, then he can be turned away from temple entry.

But then I understand the nature of the protest, its not really religious but about the issue of respect. I do believe that all people should be given their space. What is relevant to this protest and why it happened actually however is because Dalits haven't been given respect - one of the ways of which is barring entry to a place of worship: this is a mark of that protest. All people speak of the greatness of their own traditions - the world should acknowledge it and we should be able to prove it. My personal question to all is: Does this issue of Dalits being barred become relevant to you while speaking of how great Hindu tradition is?
Categorizing and labelling a group as "dalits" by birth itself is birth-based discrimination. Unless the birth-based divisions are removed, there can be no question of respect here.

My 1 cent.

Regards.
 
The Great Hindu Tradition, authored by Sri Sarma Sastrigal, is available at Jayalakshmi Indological Book House, Apparswamy koil street (opp. Sanskrit college), Mylapore and at the author's residence : Flat No. 24 Godavari Apartments, 167 Lake view Road, West Mambalam, Chennai 600033 for Rs. 200. (by post it is Rs.250. Cheque/DD drawn in favour of Sarma Sastrigal). For overseas buyers it is $25 including shipping.

Best,
Sarma Sastrigal
 
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From the contents of the said book given below, I get a feeling that this book will not address any of the points raised by Shri Vivek.

"What you learn from the book:

1. About Vedas
2. Our revered Maharishis
3. Importance of Kushmanda Homa
4. Our Significant rituals like Vivaha, Upanayana
5. Anthyeshti (Apara [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]karma[/FONT]
[/FONT][/COLOR])
6. Sraaddha
7. Hundreds of FAQs on our customs and rituals
8. Significance of Darbhai, etc etc"[/COLOR]

It is intriguing to me why "kusmanda homa" (kh) is highlighted in a book such as this; there are ever so many homas, this kh is one among them. Even as a praayaschitta homa, I think there are others.
 
Pujya Swami Dayananda Saraswati has release recently a book in English titled THE GREAT HINDU TRADITION (an insight into Vedic priciples, Rituals and Heritage). The book is authored by Sri Sarma Sastrigal of Chennai.

What you learn from the book:

1. About Vedas
2. Our revered Maharishis
3. Importance of Kushmanda Homa
4. Our Significant rituals like Vivaha, Upanayana
5. Anthyeshti (Apara karma)
6. Sraaddha
7. Hundreds of FAQs on our customs and rituals
8. Significance of Darbhai, etc etc

Kanchi Acharyal Blessed the Book in the Srimukham as:..This book in English seems to be an encyclopedia on the rituals of our Sanatana Dharma. It is observed that Sarma Sastrigal has taken great strain to make the younger generation to realise the intricacies of the Vedic liway of life

For copies one can email to the author at [email protected]

Sri Sarma Sasthrigal,

Thank you very much for sharing this info with all of us here. Kindly let me know as whether the same book is available with you in Tamizh. If yes, I would like to buy for my mother in Chennai.

I have emailed you from my yahoo ID to your gmail account, asking some clarification in order to buy for me, the English version of this book from you. Let me know ASAP.


PRANAAM.
 
@ Sow Happyhindu

"Parsees belong to a seperate religion. Within Zoarashtrianism there is no caste difference. One cannot go to Mecca if one is not a muslim. Here the difference is religion. Not caste. There can be no reason to debar anyone from temple entry on the grounds of caste. Ofcourse if one is not a hindu, then he can be turned away from temple entry."

Words like "Muslim", "Hindu", "Zoroastrian" or designating them as separate religions is only a label. What is the point of discord here is that people are separated by an identity. There is no Hindu text calling itself "Hindu" - which is how varied and multiple the religion is.

The dalits, with the affluent dalits and their finance can easily build another temple structure for their worship. But this is not what they want, and I agree with them. Because the issue is not about having to just worship, but gain respect for being humans. Have you read my post properly? It seems you have come of with a bias imagining that I supported the barring.

Before you post against me Happyhindu read what I have typed. "But then I understand the nature of the protest, its not really religious but about the issue of respect." You failed to understand my post.

"Categorizing and labelling a group as "dalits" by birth itself is birth-based discrimination."

Birth-based divisions should ideally not exist, I agree. But now that its become a close part of identity politics it will remain. Identity politics was played by all castes. The name "dalit" was itself self-designated. I don't disrespect anyone for being "dalit" or anything. "Dalit" means oppressed - many of them are indeed oppressed unfortunately and dalits themselves come from various castes (previously). The Dhangars are dalits today, but the word "Dhangar" itself signifies one of wealth. Its possible that in the turn of political and economic evens certain affluent sections of society became poor and oppressed.

But all this apart - my respect doesn't come from these labels, it comes from appreication for who they are as humans and what odds they have struggled against. Unfortunately, DK and DMK which themselves headed by upper caste NBs used their power to revile brahmins, they didn't use it to genuinely try and end caste practices as practiced by so many groups in villages.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
@ Sri Sangom

"From the contents of the said book given below, I get a feeling that this book will not address any of the points raised by Shri Vivek."

I believe everyone is aware of that Sri Sangom.

But how significant to you is the points raised by me? Do you believe that to establish ourselves as a community dedicated to finghting casteism or any social evil would require us to abandon what Nara seems to believe as an inheritly evil identity, due to which he has become an "ex-brahmin"?

Regards,
Vivek.
 
@ Sri Sangom

"From the contents of the said book given below, I get a feeling that this book will not address any of the points raised by Shri Vivek."

I believe everyone is aware of that Sri Sangom.

But how significant to you is the points raised by me? Do you believe that to establish ourselves as a community dedicated to finghting casteism or any social evil would require us to abandon what Nara seems to believe as an inheritly evil identity, due to which he has become an "ex-brahmin"?

Regards,
Vivek.

Shri Vivek,

I feel you must be very young, going by your posts. I am an old man of 70 and so my views on different topics are likely to differ from yours.

I have made my views on the point/s raised by you above in more than one occasion in this forum. IMO, the brahmins of India as a community cannot earn goodwill and camaraderie of the dalits and sudras. Any step taken to prove that we brahmins as a community have no longer any of the undesirable aspects of the past, will only lead the community to further alienate itself; it is like struggling to extricate oneself from quicksand - the more you try, the more you sink!

Add to this the fact that there still is a strong and powerful cross section, at least among the brahmins of south india, which believes in the traditional, hardcore, orthodox views of brahmin superiority, exclusivity, pure blood line, brahmavarchas gained due to generations of brahminic living and so on and so forth. Almost all the mutts belonging to the different schisms also toe the above line only. Though you individually questioned (in another thread) the relevance of the mutts, the truth is not that; the mutts have great sway over the brahmin orthodoxy and both find common interest in perpetuating the brahministic viewpoint.

In short it will not be feasible to see the brahmins fighting against casteism as a community. The required change can come only at the individual- and family- levels, which in course of time will take the brahmins nearer to common people and slowly end the divide. This will require, willy nilly, change in attitudes, life styles, etc., though the "brahmin" tag of caste may not leave us. The younger generations show some changes in this direction, but there is also a throw-back among youngsters to what I would call orthodoxy.

I am nobody to comment about Shri Nara. But having known him through pms and e-mails, I feel he is not an "ex-brahmin" but a "liberated brahmin"; he was a staunch SV, thorough with the scriptures pertaining to them, an intellectual and an academic. Probably as a result of what Adi sankara called self-introspection, nara has become an "atheist". I feel an atheist who admits it is more religious than many devout people whose credentials for being devout can only be verified by God.

But I do not understand the reason for your being more engrossed with the people, what they are, how they are, etc., rather than the opinions they put forward.
 
....I am nobody to comment about Shri Nara. But having known him through pms and e-mails, I feel he is not an "ex-brahmin" but a "liberated brahmin"; he was a staunch SV, thorough with the scriptures pertaining to them, an intellectual and an academic. Probably as a result of what Adi sankara called self-introspection, nara has become an "atheist". I feel an atheist who admits it is more religious than many devout people whose credentials for being devout can only be verified by God.
Dear Shri Sangom sir, I appreciate your kind words, it means the proverbial heaven and earth to me coming from a respected and highly knowledgeable person. This makes all the brickbats I have take from many people here quite worthwhile :)


But I do not understand the reason for your being more engrossed with the people, what they are, how they are, etc., rather than the opinions they put forward.
This is an important point many in the forum don't seem to understand properly. Vivek has been going on Nara this and Nara that, making sweeping assumptions about what motivates my views and convictions. This is absolutely uncalled for. One needs to debate the points and refrain from making repeated remarks about the person.

Thank you once again, much appreciated ...
 
@Sri Sangom - The defeatist, guilt-psychosis you face is exactly what holds the community.

"I feel you must be very young, going by your posts. I am an old man of 70 and so my views on different topics are likely to differ from yours."

I am 22. What makes one really "old" however IMO is the mellowing that follows the ineffable experience born of their mind, mostly unknown to the world.

"IMO, the brahmins of India as a community cannot earn goodwill and camaraderie of the dalits and sudras. Any step taken to prove that we brahmins as a community have no longer any of the undesirable aspects of the past, will only lead the community to further alienate itself; it is like struggling to extricate oneself from quicksand - the more you try, the more you sink!"

You present a dark prospect in what I see is a defeatist attitude. I will tell you what is going wrong in these efforts to earn the goodwill:

1. There are hardly any efforts.

2. Brahmins accept the revile of anti-brahmin overtone rhetoric without even understanding it exists. A matter like DMKs propaganda is precisely the type I am talking about. Even of the efforts which have existed to fight social injustice from brahmins, and still exist - anti-brahmin organizations don't care in regarding them. To the DMK we are an evil community that came and are a plague. Sadly, brahmins accept this view too.

3. Many brahmins aren't mavericks. We believe to defy is to dishonour, when in truth dishonour has already reached us due to blind ways. The real dishonour is to blindly follow without understanding and have the world later call us as mere ritualists and superstitious people. We regard man-representatives of our community as the community's essence itself. Which man can represent you but yourself? We choose not to discern for ourselves which parts of our tradition to regard and which not to.

4. We are fooled to believing that our tradition is inheritly evil and that we need a "lion's share" of blame without seeing social discrimination for what it is. This is the naïve attitude many have. Anti-brahmins will re-enforce the view quiet clearly for their own agenda. When we see this as our blame, we don't think clearly and come to conclusions like yours that we can't do anything. But you forget that this again doesn't exculpate us, only prolongs the suffering of those suffering. But when we see this as a social evil, that it is still practiced by previlaged classes - because of being drunk in pride and power - nothing to do only with brahmins, we get a better understanding of it. Its this understanding you or many lack as they bring themselves to feel guilty.

5. We believe in a greatness of our tradition where it doesn't exist, and ignore it where it actually existed.

"In short it will not be feasible to see the brahmins fighting against casteism as a community. The required change can come only at the individual- and family- levels, which in course of time will take the brahmins nearer to common people and slowly end the divide."

The defeatist attitude which makes you say that the only place for brahmins in society is as propagators of casteist evil is the main reason for the community lacking behind. You too, probably like Nara then believe that to be a brahmin is to treat others lowly. But this is not what our tradition is about.

"Though you individually questioned (in another thread) the relevance of the mutts, the truth is not that; the mutts have great sway over the brahmin orthodoxy and both find common interest in perpetuating the brahministic viewpoint."

Which judge says who is the actual brahmin organization? Or what it means to be a brahmin? The casteist practices can be questioned through many things written in our philosophy. You attacked Chankya, but what are you? What legacy have you created? What inspiration have to been to anyone? Neither our history, nor philosophy justifies condemning anyone to a life of an oppressed due to birth - it lays great emphasis on the individual by speaking of great men of all origins. These tales aren't an inspiration to you about our culture - you see them as corner stones, and not cornerstones (hehe.) having believed the worst about us in a popular anti-brahmin view.

You, in your defeatist attitude to believe that brahmins can never be seen as anything other than a social evil obviously don't care to understand that this pov.

" I feel he is not an "ex-brahmin" but a "liberated brahmin"; "

Sri Nara himself said he is an "ex-brahmin". His idea, as yours works well in establishing the guilt-psychosis amongst TBs which is exactly the aim of DK/DMK. I have nothing against Nara, but to me its clear that such a thing as his is exactly what has made it easy to gain political mileage by blaming brahmins.

"But I do not understand the reason for your being more engrossed with the people, what they are, how they are, etc., rather than the opinions they put forward."

I have spoken about why Nara (and many) become "ex-brahmins" - this has everything to do with the opinions they came to form in their mind based on feeling a guilt for being brahmins where they look at it as a rice bag of 50 percent worms. This is why I asked Nara about the Eruropean Renaissance, which came of when European society was declining. Did the south Europeans look at their tradition as a rice bag of worms? This is the problem of the two negative extremes of blind orthdoxy and complete disregard.


PS: Orthodoxy itself established itself once as "new", so who is to tell which was firstly brahmin in culture and which was later?

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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@ Sri Nara - Okay, let me not be hostile. I am sorry for personal comments. But explain

"Vivek has been going on Nara this and Nara that, making sweeping assumptions about what motivates my views and convictions."

Because you didn't care to explain why you see it as a 50 percent rice bag with worms. Or why you regard social evil of casteism practiced by anyone as "brahminism". Tell me if spreading a guilt-psychosis is not your agenda or if you don't see it unravelling. Why should this social evil be focussed only on brahmins?

On the other hand let us ask the real question: What is the true origin of why previlaged people of society anywhere tend to ill-treat people of the lower sections of society? Why do low castes practice untouchability with other low castes? Why does corruption and casteism prevail in TN after "evil" brahmins have been exiled?

Regards,
Vivek.
 
@ Sri Nara - Okay, let me not be hostile. I am sorry for personal comments.
Vivek, I appreciate your expression of regret for the personal comments. We can yet have a decent conversation if you would stick to some basic rules of debate.

You are a very young man, yet you have a lot of spunk, I like that. You are not intimidated by age, which is good, but, like all younguns, you are very sure of yourself, which is not all that good. For instance, I just can't understand the way you talk to Shri Sangom. There is a lot all of us can learn from him. You can be deferential and at the same time bold enough to question. You have the bold part down, but, IMO, you need to work on the deferential part.

Because you didn't care to explain why you see it as a 50 percent rice bag with worms.
From what I have seen of your postings I know we are not going anywhere with this. Since you say I didn't explain myself, let me state once again. IMO, on the basis of the Brahminical traditions as seen by the theoretical expositions of great Acharays like Sankara and Ramanuja, and the practices of Brahmins, it is undeniable that it is permeated with a whole lot of superstitions and abhorrent ideas of birth-based superiority. Such ideas are like worms. These are not just peripheral ideas, but central ones, justified by concepts like karma and rebirth.

The Brahmnical tradition also contains such nice things like Ahimsha pradamo pushpam, et al. But these are not just sole province of Brahminsim, most other traditions also have these. So, why must I accept Brahminism which contains the aspect of Hinduism that people world over shake their heads in disbelief. Just because it contains some good stuff that are quite common everywhere else as well, no, I won't.

Contrary to what you keep saying, I am not moved by any guilt feeling at all. Such a feeling is appropriate only if one feels the Varna system has some redeeming qualities worth preserving. If this was so, then I could feel some guilt for its misuse. I happen to think the oppressive caste system is an inevitable consequence of the Varna system, a hallmark of Brahminism, whatever may be its original motivation. So, I feel no guilt at all, I think Varna system must go, sooner it goes, the better it is for everyone, the present day Brahmins included.

Why should this social evil be focussed only on brahmins?
Two reasons, (i) this is TB forum, for Brahmins, therefore the focus is on Brahmins, and (ii) Brahmins routinely and happily wash their hands off when untold caste-based atrocities are committed and refuse to take any responsibility for the monster they created and unleashed upon the people of India.


On the other hand let us ask the real question: What is the true origin of why previlaged people of society anywhere tend to ill-treat people of the lower sections of society?
Yes, exploitation is not a preserve of Brahmins alone. All established power exploits in one form or another. This does not make the exploitation encoded into Brahminsim pardonable. What makes Varna based discrimination especially pernicious is (a) it is birth-based, i.e. no escape all life long, and (ii) it is hierarchically self-sustaining, i.e. everyone gets to exploit while also get exploited, thus giving an incentive to preserve one's own place in the hierarchy and prevent the attempts of any other group to pass their own status.

Further, this Varna system adds another dimension to exploitation. In other societies, the exploitation was based only on class. In India, dominated by Brahminism in one form or another, the exploitation is on two fronts, class and caste. No self-respecting upper class Brahmin will ever consider an upper-class NB or a lower-class Brahmin as worthy of his respect. Which of these two groups will command the respect of a TB depends on the circumstance. In a secular context, say business dealings, cocktail party in a 5-star hotel, obviously the upper-class NB will be warmly embraced. In a religious setting, say in a Matham, or in a temple or homam, it is the orthodox Brahmin, most likely belonging to very low class, but belonging to the same upper caste, will be embraced. In summary, all societies have their own problem of exploitations to deal with, the Brahminical Tamil Nadu has quite an unique two dimensional exploitation structure.


Why do low castes practice untouchability with other low castes? Why does corruption and casteism prevail in TN after "evil" brahmins have been exiled?
The same reason the supposedly educated elites of their societies do. Those who have been prevented from any sort of education for centuries, and were indoctrinated to believe in this pernicious hierarchical caste structure, know nothing more than to imitate those who were supposed to be their betters. Now, things are changing. The beneficiaries of the much reviled reservation system in education have started questioning this ideology. They are called DK/DMK. Yes, the leadership of DK/DMK are corrupt and good for nothing. But, the educated ranks among them are at the forefront of tearing down the Varna edifice of Brahmins. For this they are recipients of the ire of all Brahminists!!!

Vivek, I will not respond to your postings unless you have some reasonable arguments. I will not respond if you are going to say the same things you have been saying.

Cheers!
 
I am plasantly surprised at the discussions my posting on my initial thread THE GREAT HINDU TRADITION had created and equally I am happy about it. The exchange of views are quite interesting. Thanks.

However main subject The Great Hindu Tradition Book remains untrouched.
 
@Sri Sangom - The defeatist, guilt-psychosis you face is exactly what holds the community.

Shri Vivek,

From the caption, I am led to believe that you agree that "the defeatist, guilt psychosis" is so common, and not just confined to a handful of persons like Shri Nara, myself etc. If so, do you really think all these other people (leaving the handful referred to above) are all unintelligent and unaware of the facts of the case?

"I feel you must be very young, going by your posts. I am an old man of 70 and so my views on different topics are likely to differ from yours."

I am 22. What makes one really "old" however IMO is the mellowing that follows the ineffable experience born of their mind, mostly unknown to the world.
I am unable to grasp the import of this. Does it mean that despite my age I have not mellowed down, or, despite being very young your mind has mellowed down due to some "ineffable" experience?

"IMO, the brahmins of India as a community cannot earn goodwill and camaraderie of the dalits and sudras. Any step taken to prove that we brahmins as a community have no longer any of the undesirable aspects of the past, will only lead the community to further alienate itself; it is like struggling to extricate oneself from quicksand - the more you try, the more you sink!"

You present a dark prospect in what I see is a defeatist attitude. I will tell you what is going wrong in these efforts to earn the goodwill:

1. There are hardly any efforts.

May be there are no efforts. But what prevents you from starting one, instead of finding fault with some old fellows like me who are "defeatists" and all that? You may let us know the type of efforts you make outside of this forum too.

2. ... Even of the efforts which have existed to fight social injustice from brahmins, and still exist - anti-brahmin organizations don't care in regarding them.

Some confusion for me; is it "social injustice from brahmins" which you are citing or efforts from brahmins to fight social injustice against them, i.e., brahmins themselves?

3. Many brahmins aren't mavericks. We believe to defy is to dishonour, when in truth dishonour has already reached us due to blind ways. The real dishonour is to blindly follow without understanding and have the world later call us as mere ritualists and superstitious people. We regard man-representatives of our community as the community's essence itself. Which man can represent you but yourself? We choose not to discern for ourselves which parts of our tradition to regard and which not to.
Where is the need for mavericks? Do you also feel that unless brahmins rebel against traditions, your aim of regaining the honour of brahmins will not come about?

4. We are fooled to believing that our tradition is inheritly evil and that we need a "lion's share" of blame without seeing social discrimination for what it is. This is the naïve attitude many have. Anti-brahmins will re-enforce the view quiet clearly for their own agenda. When we see this as our blame, we don't think clearly and come to conclusions like yours that we can't do anything. But you forget that this again doesn't exculpate us, only prolongs the suffering of those suffering. But when we see this as a social evil, that it is still practiced by previlaged classes - because of being drunk in pride and power - nothing to do only with brahmins, we get a better understanding of it. Its this understanding you or many lack as they bring themselves to feel guilty.

This line is very familiar to this forum. If Nbs or some others do commit atrocities, does that make an expiation for the caste rules originally crafted and enforced by brahmins also?

5. We believe in a greatness of our tradition where it doesn't exist, and ignore it where it actually existed.

This is a very cryptic "mahaavaakya" I will say. Kindly elaborate, if need be in a different new thread, with as many examples as possible so that the members here will be able to learn what all non-existent greatnesses they are foolishly believing, and the greatnesses which actually existing and are ignored. To me it looks as though our members are somewhat informed of the tradition and may not be making such gross wrong judgments.

"In short it will not be feasible to see the brahmins fighting against casteism as a community. The required change can come only at the individual- and family- levels, which in course of time will take the brahmins nearer to common people and slowly end the divide."

The defeatist attitude which makes you say that the only place for brahmins in society is as propagators of casteist evil is the main reason for the community lacking behind. You too, probably like Nara then believe that to be a brahmin is to treat others lowly. But this is not what our tradition is about.

A simple statement like this will not convince me at least. Kindly furnish as many examples to prove that our tradition was not at all to treat others lowly.

Which judge says who is the actual brahmin organization? Or what it means to be a brahmin?
I would like your answers to these questions.

The casteist practices can be questioned through many things written in our philosophy.
May be, but can you prove to the satisfaction of an impartial judge that our religion was at all times against casteist practices of any sort? (you once again bring in "philosophy" which is like saying "I can prove that I did not kill him... with my left hand".)

You attacked Chankya, but what are you? What legacy have you created? What inspiration have to been to anyone?
Everyone in the world need not be and cannot be a canakya, seething with vengeance and making use of some capable fellow to wreak vengeance on his behalf, if that is the sort of legacy you are talking about. Of course, I have not created any legacy of irreverent speech based on empty arguments even when I was young (22 years). Whatever legacy I have created is known to those who know me.

Neither our history, nor philosophy justifies condemning anyone to a life of an oppressed due to birth - it lays great emphasis on the individual by speaking of great men of all origins. These tales aren't an inspiration to you about our culture - you see them as corner stones, and not cornerstones (hehe.) having believed the worst about us in a popular anti-brahmin view.
what is "our history"? As for philosophy you are again fighting shy of "religion" (the killing with left hand example) ha ha!

You, in your defeatist attitude to believe that brahmins can never be seen as anything other than a social evil obviously don't care to understand that this pov.

You have conveniently omitted the following from my post:

"I have made my views on the point/s raised by you above in more than one occasion in this forum. IMO, the brahmins of India as a community cannot earn goodwill and camaraderie of the dalits and sudras. Any step taken to prove that we brahmins as a community have no longer any of the undesirable aspects of the past, will only lead the community to further alienate itself; it is like struggling to extricate oneself from quicksand - the more you try, the more you sink!
...In short it will not be feasible to see the brahmins fighting against casteism as a community. The required change can come only at the individual- and family- levels, which in course of time will take the brahmins nearer to common people and slowly end the divide.
"

I think this explains my considered stand on this matter, whether defeatist or not.




PS: Orthodoxy itself established itself once as "new", so who is to tell which was firstly brahmin in culture and which was later?

Regards,
Vivek.
Kindly explain when this happened.
 
Sri Sarma Sasthrigal,

Thank you very much for sharing this info with all of us here. Kindly let me know as whether the same book is available with you in Tamizh. If yes, I would like to buy for my mother in Chennai.

I have emailed you from my yahoo ID to your gmail account, asking some clarification in order to buy for me, the English version of this book from you. Let me know ASAP.


PRANAAM.


Sri Ravi

The entire book The Great Hindu Tradition is being brought out in Tamil. It is under process and it may take sometime for the final output.

However, I have a book of mine with hundreds of FAQs on our customs and values in Tamil titled VAIDHEEKAMUM PANPAADUM and it is available for Rs.50/-

Thanking you, once again, for your kind words,

Best
Sarma Sastrigal



 
Sri Ravi

The entire book The Great Hindu Tradition is being brought out in Tamil. It is under process and it may take sometime for the final output.

However, I have a book of mine with hundreds of FAQs on our customs and values in Tamil titled VAIDHEEKAMUM PANPAADUM and it is available for Rs.50/-


Thanking you, once again, for your kind words,

Best
Sarma Sastrigal



Sri Sarma Sastrigal,

Thank you for your reply. I am glad to note your work on Tamizh version, titled "VAIDEEKAMUM PANPAADUM". I shall be in touch with you through emails.


PRANAAM
 
Will Durant in his widely read "The Story of Philosophy" has quoted excerpts from Voltaire's Romances, which I reproduce below:

He tells a story of “The Good Brahmin,” who says, “ I wish I had never been born!”

“Why so?” said I
“Because,” he replied, “I have been studying these forty years, and I find that it has been so much time lost… I believe that I am composed of matter, but I have never been able to satisfy myself what it is that produces thought. I am even ignorant whether my understanding is a simple faculty like that of walking or digesting, or if I think with my head in the same manner as I take hold of a thing with my heads… I talk a great deal, and when I have done speaking I remain confounded and ashamed of what I have said.”

The same day I had a conversation with an old woman, his neighbour. I asked her if she had ever been unhappy for not understanding how her soul was made? She did not even comprehend my question. She had not, for the briefest moment in her life, had a thought about these subjects with which the good Brahmin had so tormented himself. She believed in the bottom of her heart in the metamorphoses of Vishnu, and provided she could get some of the sacred water of the Ganges, in which to make her ablutions, she thought herself the happiest of women. Struck with the happiness of this poor creature, I returned to my philosopher, whom I thus addressed”

“Are you not ashamed to be thus miserable when, not fifty yards from you, there is an old automaton who thinks of nothing and lives contended?”

“You are right,” he replied. “I have said to myself a thousand times that I should be happy if I were but as ignorant as my old neighbour; and yet it is a happiness which I do not desire.”

This reply of the Brahmin made a great impression on me than anything that had passed.
 
I can't understand why people are trading charges and forgetting the
subject-matter. Let us be objective and move on. Afterall we are here to
exchange our views and also enrich our knowledge. If one does not like
the views of others, it is better to hold one's peace. Thanks.
 
@ Sri Nara

"You are a very young man, yet you have a lot of spunk, I like that. You are not intimidated by age, which is good, but, like all younguns, you are very sure of yourself, which is not all that good."

And you seem quiet sure of yourself too. :)

"you need to work on the deferential part."

I try and respect everyone's opinions irrespective of age. This is why this is a forum. If Sangom felt I disrespected him at any point, he can point and I will make due amends.

"IMO, on the basis of the Brahminical traditions as seen by the theoretical expositions of great Acharays like Sankara and Ramanuja, and the practices of Brahmins, it is undeniable that it is permeated with a whole lot of superstitions and abhorrent ideas of birth-based superiority."

Which is where we disagree. I for one can find mixed ideas, many philosophies, stories respecting the very idea of individual's ethic of life rather than birth. I am not denying that what you have typed exists, but you seem to see only this.

"So, why must I accept Brahminism which contains the aspect of Hinduism that people world over shake their heads in disbelief."

So in short you see brahminism as that aspect of Hinduism which teaches to ill-treat people on basis of caste. "Brahminism" is thus a convenient term for caste discrimination made to look like the exclusive blame of brahmins. Therby reviling them, thereby demonizing them and attempting to spread a guilt-psychosis within the community. Brahmins have existed through different eras, and frankly I can't see why you would choose to be blind to references that clearly say that caste was originally not birth based concept at all.

"Contrary to what you keep saying, I am not moved by any guilt feeling at all. Such a feeling is appropriate only if one feels the Varna system has some redeeming qualities worth preserving. If this was so, then I could feel some guilt for its misuse"

Then why do you find it necessary to remove the tag that you are a brahmin by community? Why do you choose to pin the general issue faced by every human civilization - the oppression of the ordinary by the previlaged and powerful as "brahminism" when community identities born from caste came to to that oppression in India. You clearly aren't seeing this in the correct light by imagining that brahmins made all varnas stand in line gave them their posts and set themselves on top.

It developed through the ethos of our country which is what you are missing. For a teacher to be more respected today and a waiter in a dabba to be disrespected is indeed a bias many would have which is not justified on the waiter - but the evil comes through an ethos of the place and not because a particular group assigned that the waiter should be disrespected.

"(i) this is TB forum, for Brahmins, therefore the focus is on Brahmins, and (ii) Brahmins routinely and happily wash their hands off when untold caste-based atrocities are committed and refuse to take any responsibility for the monster they created and unleashed upon the people of India."

Your genuine opinion comes in the second when you speak of "monster they created" which again shows you have a skewered and myopic understanding of how things unravelled. And sure, any NB upper caste who hurts a low caste is "brahminist" too according to you.

"In other societies, the exploitation was based only on class. In India, dominated by Brahminism in one form or another, the exploitation is on two fronts, class and caste."

Caste was the early class system in India, which branched out to what we see it as today - a communities identity. Politicians and religious heads convenienetly use it to play power cards.

"No self-respecting upper class Brahmin will ever consider an upper-class NB or a lower-class Brahmin as worthy of his respect."

And from where do you make this observation?

"In summary, all societies have their own problem of exploitations to deal with, the Brahminical Tamil Nadu has quite an unique two dimensional exploitation structure."

You mean DMK atheist-party ruled TN which institutionally exiled the brahmins. When things go wrong TN is "brahminical" all of a sudden.

"Me: Why do low castes practice untouchability with other low castes? Why does corruption and casteism prevail in TN after "evil" brahmins have been exiled?

Nara: The same reason the supposedly educated elites of their societies do. "

You haven't explain why one exploited would use the same exploitation on another. You didn't explain how this happened even without brahmins. Consicely put: human arrogance of being in previlage or in power is the reason for this - not brahmins or one class. Brahmin culture too in its entireity has not encouraged ill-treating of the less previlaged. The fact is that all of society (including brahmins) have come to follow it and you tag as the main thing brahmins regarded.

"But, the educated ranks among them are at the forefront of tearing down the Varna edifice of Brahmins. For this they are recipients of the ire of all Brahminists!!!"

And casteism still happens in villages amongst other castes. So they have done well in exiling the brahmins. But it still doesn't fight the idea of social discrimination because their movement was born of hatred, and not concern for the lowest of poor. The movment doesn't speak of the nature of social discrimination, or of all upper castes discriminating lower castes, but only of brahmins because it was Periyar's own seething vengance which because he was not allowed to eat with brahmins in Kashi. While I can understand his personal indignation and support it, it didn't solve the issue or bring it in right perspective. Casteism still exists in many TN villages - in violent forms too; and this is because the movement was more like a vendetta against brahmins than the fight for justice of lower castes.

Varna was no "edifice" of the brahmins, it was the class structure of early society and didn't say anyone had to be ill-treated.

"Vivek, I will not respond to your postings unless you have some reasonable arguments. "

I may have to say the same thing to you. Let this forum decide whether my arguments are reasonable or not; or whether you aren't looking at this in a myopic perspective and trying to spreading a guilt-psychosis amongst brahmins. You are not looking at the issue of social discrimination in the perspective we need to.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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@ Sri Sangom - Atleast you agree that the guilt-psychosis exists.

"From the caption, I am led to believe that you agree that "the defeatist, guilt psychosis" is so common, and not just confined to a handful of persons like Shri Nara, myself etc."

I agree it is very widespread - but that doesn't make it the right perspective either. Nara for one seems to be in denial of such an idea of guilt, even if he felt the need in life to proclaim himself as an "ex-brahmin" and quiet certainly blames casteism exclusively on brahmins. Ask yourself why you need to feel guilty for the caste crimes of others be they brahmins or even other castes?

Historically speaking, what do you think was the role of the ruling classes in this caste discrimination? Most people are ready to buy in the view that Indian society was a puppet show run by the brahmins due to which they need to be held responsible for everything evil. It hardly puts things in right perspective IMO. It overlooks casteism and the way its actually practiced, which is why casteism still exists.

"If so, do you really think all these other people (leaving the handful referred to above) are all unintelligent and unaware of the facts of the case?"

Its not about intelligence but about having being made to feel guilty - it has more to do with an emotional factor than intelligence. Most people are indeed unaware of the facts because they already believe ideas that are repeated in an atmosphere that views them negatively. Tell me at what point did DMK speak of Bharathiyar? Brahmin tradition across India is filled with hetrodoxical discourses which is why many different opinions and philosophies exist.

"May be there are no efforts. But what prevents you from starting one, instead of finding fault with some old fellows like me who are "defeatists" and all that?"

By discussing here I am making myself be heard, and I am speaking against the defeatist, guilt-ridden mindset that is so widely spread. These efforts aren't of the nature of a violent revolution they start by re-defining ourselves, what we hold on to regard as important etc.

Each of us in our personal life, and way we live are setting an example of how the world sees us - as individuals, and as members of a community. That is true for people of any place.

Saying however that the brahmin identity can and will only be looked upon as evil is convincing yourself that the hatred others have for you merely because you were born into this identity is justified. Casteism is a social evil prevailant throughout society - a doing of all previlaged classes, and even certain affluent "low castes" today. Take Mayawati's state using money to glorify herself. Ultimately the issue boils down to the fact that people in power, have power - which they tend to misuse for pushing ideas of separateness, greatness, for personal benefits etc.

"Some confusion for me; is it "social injustice from brahmins" which you are citing or efforts from brahmins to fight social injustice against them, i.e., brahmins themselves?"

What I meant was the efforts of certain brahmins in fighting social injustice. Anti-brahmin organizations don't regard them, neither do they of the other legacies that brahmins have had in TN society through years. A version of history is spread in which brahmins have been nothing but the oppressors, and where even NB upper castes who practice caste discrimination are absoleved giving reason that it was indoctrinated to them by the brahmins to ill-treat lower castes. Fact is, there are violent ways in which lower castes are ill-treated every day even after exile of the brahmins.

"Where is the need for mavericks? Do you also feel that unless brahmins rebel against traditions, your aim of regaining the honour of brahmins will not come about?"

What is the need? Every tradition that has survived had hetrodoxy which is why it did. To be a maverick is not rebel for the sake of it. What I said was precisely true - even orthodoxy has an origin. The mutts were built in some point of time weren't they? You can't ask me to explain it any more than you can explain how language would have had an origin too - its obvious fact. So my point is it too came about, and we don't know what was added, what is "true" etc. So by discourse we are free in establishing our own and it becomes no less valid because it has all been established at some point.

"If Nbs or some others do commit atrocities, does that make an expiation for the caste rules originally crafted and enforced by brahmins also?"

Brahmins were the literary writers of past times, casteist practices don't come exclusively from them but from the very construct of the powerful castes (which were classes then) and their efforts to keep the lower castes under them - written by brahmins of the time who were themselves absorbed into the negative ethos. So these weren't "crafted and enforced" by the brahmins. Infact, I can hardly find a text which says caste is based on birth - like the BG, or Yudhistira's definition in the Mahabharata the most respected texts of religion only look at caste in terms of person's temperament.

"Kindly furnish as many examples to prove that our tradition was not at all to treat others lowly."

The very philosophy of the vedanta. But tell me how we can separate even caste ill-treatment as a brahmin tradition when its practiced throughout the society? You point to me one spiritual regarded text which actually speaks of attaining greatness by ill-treating others. You said Chankya was a "fallen brahmin", him taking Chandragupta into his wings is exactly the understanding of how people of any origin can attain greatness.

"Me: Which judge says who is the actual brahmin organization? Or what it means to be a brahmin?

Sangom: I would like your answers to these questions."

Why do you want my answers when I posed the questions to you? The answer is that there is no way to know because it requires one to define "brahmin". The only validity to everyone is based on who proves his worth (practically) - if brahmins represent knowledge, then in knowledge etc. None of us have bothered to speak to the mutts.

Now what happens if one set of brahmins regard one set of texts, and other regard another and contradict?

Each may keep to themselves. But the growth of them, lies only in what appeals to others.

"but can you prove to the satisfaction of an impartial judge that our religion was at all times against casteist practices of any sort? (you once again bring in "philosophy" which is like saying "I can prove that I did not kill him... with my left hand".)"

Philosophy was their message to the masses. The fact is that people of any society (of any religion) tend to ill-treat the lower strata of society. Not that its sanctioned in any place as the morally correct thing to do.

This is why BG's message is itself (like in vedanta) seeing the supreme in everyone. As Krishna says that all beings dwell in him, but not he in all others. What do you interpret this as? Tell me, and I will tell you my opinion of it too.

"As for philosophy you are again fighting shy of "religion" (the killing with left hand example) ha ha!"

Sure, sure, have fun with "ha ha" having discouraged the community for large part of your time. As for this quote let me explain: There is what was considered ideal and what came of the construct of society which is the difference here. To say for instance, Jesus didn't speak of keeping slaves or ill-treating them. But the fact that Christian societies in Europe came to do so has nothing to do with what is considered Jesus' philosophy. So likewise, no text speaks of ill-treating the low castes as a morally correct thing. Society obviously did do evil, but on what lines to say that evil represents that religion?

"IMO, the brahmins of India as a community cannot earn goodwill and camaraderie of the dalits and sudras. Any step taken to prove that we brahmins as a community have no longer any of the undesirable aspects of the past, will only lead the community to further alienate itself; it is like struggling to extricate oneself from quicksand - the more you try, the more you sink!"

What reply do you want in this? What did you try and sink in your life time? I don't agree with you. And I did read this which is precisely why I called your attitude defeatist and guilt-ridden.

"In short it will not be feasible to see the brahmins fighting against casteism as a community. The required change can come only at the individual- and family- levels, which in course of time will take the brahmins nearer to common people and slowly end the divide."

Who are the "common people"? Caste system is a heirarchy. The issue is about upper castes and lower castes, the powerful, previlaged, and the unprevilaged. You are guilt-ridden and made to believe there are a "common" people and brahmins as dicotonomical divisions. This has got to do with the way the government of present day TN created the dicotomy in the minds of people - brahmins were along with "common people" through many eras of Tamil history.

What would you regard as brahmin thought? How do we know who actually influenced ill-treating low castes? The upanishads and vedanta don't speak of caste differences - there are really no texts more valid than the Upanishads in relation to the ideas brahmin spread.

You cling on to commentaries of more recent people when there has been an all together different meaning to castes (as not birth-based), and respecting people in our own earlier spiritual texts like the BG and Upanishads.

The reason you choose to do that is to feel correct in having had the guilt-ridden view for much of your days. When you say that "brahmins of India as a community cannot earn goodwill and camaraderie of dalits and sudras" you forget that our greatest legacies have been of men from the most humble of origins - like Chandragupta Maurya. The early tradition of brahmins to experience a spartan life was itself to come in understanding of human psyche and the plight of all. Our true legacy doesn't condemn people based on their birth.

Lastly, what would your suggested solution be? Probably to bury ourselves? haha. Clearly you have fun about this so let me too.

Opinions such as yours are the reason people feel justified spreading hate. When you say that you are exclusively guilty, it takes the world less than a second to agree and sing in chorus.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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