Why India can not produce its own fighter jets?

prasad1 · Jul 30, 2015

Israel: Israel's brightest hour in fighter combat history came in the six day war. Due to an arms embargo, Dassault could not sell the planes Israel needed to have complete air superiority. By 1968, Dassault had finished production of the 50 Mirage 5Js paid for by Israel, but an arms embargo imposed upon Israel by the French government in 1967 prevented deliveries from taking place. The Israelis replied by producing an unlicensed copy of the Mirage 5, the Nesher, with technical specifications for both the airframe and the engine obtained by Israeli spies. Israel continues its indigenous research programs to this day and sells many of its weapons to its allies.

What is the point here?
The above two nations, took the development of indigenous weapons programs very seriously. They started off roughly at the same time as India. They invested money, infrastructure and got scientists educated in order to produce these modern killing machines. So is India capable of doing this? Yes. But it requires a great degree of effort and will of the people and government to make it happen. It involves free and fair trials of competing private companies, it involves heavy investments, both public and private, it involves training scientists, engineers, maintenance crew, it involves refitting factories and workshops, it calls for intelligent research teams to tackle very difficult problems in fluid mechanics, material science, aerodynamics, weapon systems, engines, avionics and electronics. Above all it involves allowing a large group of people to work on something without any interference, and insistence on quality of the final product. In other words- NO red tape, NO corruption and TOTAL autonomy. Even after this high degree of commitment and effort is put in, it will still take years, perhaps decades before real results can be seen. But is it possible? Yes. We can see baby steps with Tejas and the aircraft career being built. But we are still a long way from developing such technology independently.

http://www.quora.com/Why-is-India-n...e-the-Eurofighter-Typhoon-and-Dassault-Rafale

yesmohan · Jul 31, 2015

prasad1 said:
Israel:

The above two nations, took the development of indigenous weapons programs very seriously. They started off roughly at the same time as India. They invested money, infrastructure and got scientists educated in order to produce these modern killing machines. So is India capable of doing this? Yes. But it requires a great degree of effort and will of the people and government
to make it happen. It involves free and fair trials of competing private companies,
http://www.quora.com/Why-is-India-n...e-the-Eurofighter-Typhoon-and-Dassault-Rafale

I also thought like this when I was cold in blood and green in judgement.
It appeared to me that all the leaders, administrators, economists,advisers to Govt...........
are all appear to be not smart enough in India.
Time and tide taught me that priorities in India, a vast country with exploding population, 50% of its people are tautening even for a square meal a day and being exploited,
are entirely different and in these area the nation is improving only by inches despite statistics reveal a different picture.
Any politician could talk anything by making our blood race but given chance to execute, they find it a tight rope walking and after sometime, started looting for their survival.
Intelligent don't opt to enter politics, land safely outside in lucrative jobs and cry in vain.
This is the state of affairs.

sangom · Jul 31, 2015

Corruption is the one root cause for india being what it is and not progressing. I will blame the hindu religion for this. Our people can be great bhaktas and at the same time grossly corrupt. Only when such false religiosity is completely eradicated, can our country hope to take even its very first step towards real progress. But this is not easy because even today our people swear by rama, krishna although they are flourishing not because they studied ramayana or bhagavatha but learned macaulay's english education system, the sciences of the west and obtained one or more Ph Ds!

sarang · Aug 1, 2015

From another angle:
Sophisticated F16s were shot down by indian piloted gnats in indo pak war. American tanks too were immobilised by indian anti tank missiles. When the americans learnt that these captured war trophies were to be given to russia which supported india, US got nervous.

Isral has survival at stake, and will do miracles and mind boggling wonders. So too india.

Vaagmi · Aug 1, 2015

sangom said:
Corruption is the one root cause for india being what it is and not progressing. I will blame the hindu religion for this. Our people can be great bhaktas and at the same time grossly corrupt. Only when such false religiosity is completely eradicated, can our country hope to take even its very first step towards real progress. But this is not easy because even today our people swear by rama, krishna although they are flourishing not because they studied ramayana or bhagavatha but learned macaulay's english education system, the sciences of the west and obtained one or more Ph Ds!

Poor reasoning.

Rama and Krishna did not ask the bhaktas to become corrupt. The free will decides whether one is corrupt or not.

People swear not only by Rama and Krishna they swear by Jesus and other Gods also. And yet indulge in all kind of actions which do not speak well of them or their Gods.

Give a new God to hundred people. The next day you will find at least ten of them swearing by that God and killing others, take bribe to do their duty, or name what you will. There will some one who will blame the new God for all those failings of the individuals.

Time is the great alchemist. If it was not Macaulay it would have been a different India perhaps equally vibrant and progressing at a brisk pace. May be there would have been nations competing to learn Sanskrit or Tamil and there may be people writing Ph.D theses in those languages. Languages are assets of humanity and not the nations or states. LOL.

sangom · Aug 1, 2015

Vaagmi said:
Poor reasoning.

Rama and Krishna did not ask the bhaktas to become corrupt. The free will decides whether one is corrupt or not.

People swear not only by Rama and Krishna they swear by Jesus and other Gods also. And yet indulge in all kind of actions which do not speak well of them or their Gods.

People (hindus) created Rama and Krishna. They pretend to worship (not swear) all these gods but indulge in corruption. Others who worship Jesus etc., have only taken a lesson from these ramabhaktas and krishna bhaktas and are doing what the proverb says, "While at Rome, do as the Romans do".

The people of the western countries also worship Jesus and other gods like Yahveh, but there they don't indulge in so much of corruption.

Give a new God to hundred people. The next day you will find at least ten of them swearing by that God and killing others, take bribe to do their duty, or name what you will. There will some one who will blame the new God for all those failings of the individuals.

Why is it necessary to "give a god"? Cannot people live without any god. Just two days ago there was a news item which said that the choice "No Religion" has been recognised by govt. Only when the critical mass of the younger generation people become bold enough to declare "No Religion" this country can hope for any improvement.

Time is the great alchemist. If it was not Macaulay it would have been a different India perhaps equally vibrant and progressing at a brisk pace. May be there would have been nations competing to learn Sanskrit or Tamil and there may be people writing Ph.D theses in those languages. Languages are assets of humanity and not the nations or states. LOL.

For millennia before Macaulay came this country was neither vibrant nor progressing to any significant extent. In fact this was a closed system left uncared for in the flow of time and was completely unfit to face any aggressor; perhaps Tasmania is the nearest example in history! Hence, even if Macaulay had not come it was a surety that at no time would anyone have tried learning Sanskrit or Tamil and take Ph.D. (what was there to take Ph.D. in Sanskrit or Tamil, by the way? We would not even have coined the abbreviation Ph. D.!)

Languages are media for communication (not assets of anyone) and many languages have died, many are in the process of dying and only some are healthy today. Sanskrit is already a dead language.

All in all, the post was a very poor attempt at "white washing and trying to project something which is non-existent.:sad:

yesmohan · Aug 1, 2015

sangom said:
Corruption is the one root cause for india being what it is and not progressing. I will blame the hindu religion for this. Our people can be great bhaktas and at the same time grossly corrupt. Only when such false religiosity is completely eradicated, can our country hope to take even its very first step towards real progress. But this is not easy because even today our people swear by rama, krishna although they are flourishing not because they studied ramayana or bhagavatha but learned macaulay's english education system, the sciences of the west and obtained one or more Ph Ds!

One Politician used to visit Thirppathi every month and used to to offer 10% of the collection made during the month, in the Hundi.

Politicians corrupts god also.

Vaagmi · Aug 1, 2015

sangom said:
People (hindus) created Rama and Krishna. They pretend to worship (not swear) all these gods but indulge in corruption. Others who worship Jesus etc., have only taken a lesson from these ramabhaktas and krishna bhaktas and are doing what the proverb says, "While at Rome, do as the Romans do".
The people of the western countries also worship Jesus and other gods like Yahveh, but there they don't indulge in so much of corruption.

"they don't indulge in so much of corruption". Highlighted words are the key words.

Why is it necessary to "give a god"? Cannot people live without any god. Just two days ago there was a news item which said that the choice "No Religion" has been recognised by govt. Only when the critical mass of the younger generation people become bold enough to declare "No Religion" this country can hope for any improvement.

sigh! Now you are indulging in a dukrinjkarane. What I meant was give a brand new God idea. I agree that even without a god idea people can indulge in rank corrupt practices because it is free will which decides everything. The younger generation pick up their values from elders and takes to corruption like fish takes to water. This country needs the entire old generation to be banished to Andamans to be stranded there for ever so that the youngsters will have no one to learn corruption from as a value.

For millennia before Macaulay came this country was neither vibrant nor progressing to any significant extent. In fact this was a closed system left uncared for in the flow of time and was completely unfit to face any aggressor; perhaps Tasmania is the nearest example in history! Hence, even if Macaulay had not come it was a surety that at no time would anyone have tried learning Sanskrit or Tamil and take Ph.D. (what was there to take Ph.D. in Sanskrit or Tamil, by the way? We would not even have coined the abbreviation Ph. D.!)

This country had a civilization much before Macaulay's country had the rudiments of a civilization. This is the recorded history. The gun powder and the reckless destruction as a method of war did the trick. The Indian civilization did not know or did not have the weapons of mass destruction in those days. And they fought their wars in which the general population was affected minimum. When invaders came from the west the story was different. They came with gun powder and guns and could kill without getting hurt. They also destroyed villages and population ruthlessly. It was like completely rewriting the methodology of a war. And Indian civilization was not prepared for that kind of a blitzkrieg. Mass destruction and rape and killing of civilians was a shocking abhorrence for the Indian kings. For them the maximum was to kill the army of the enemy and take away the enemy's cattle and wealth. Nothing more.
English was enriched by every one who learnt that language. Includes Indians too.
I thought you would understand. If you want you may substitute Ph.D with Mahamahopadhyaya. LOL.

Languages are media for communication (not assets of anyone) and many languages have died, many are in the process of dying and only some are healthy today. Sanskrit is already a dead language.

Every medium is an asset. a performing asset. You make use of the language to communicate. When the communication is effective the asset has performed its role efficiently. It remains un affected by the performance and is available for your use any number of times.

All in all, the post was a very poor attempt at "white washing and trying to project something which is non-existent.:sad:

cynicism at its best. LOL.

yesmohan · Aug 2, 2015

[h=2]Why India can not produce its own fighter jets?[/h]We have ability, technology etc, to produce. Along with all plus points we have our politicians also.Because of them, corruption outweighs investment in plant and machinery.

If we import again politicians ....... kick- backs .

We have to choose the lesser of the evils.

sangom · Aug 2, 2015

yesmohan said:
One Politician used to visit Thirppathi every month and used to to offer 10% of the collection made during the month, in the Hundi.

Politicians corrupts god also.

Shri yesmohan,

I will say that our politicians became corrupt because corruption is in our very national ethos, and it has its roots in our hindu religion itself.

You may perhaps be aware of the rite of ஸோதகும்பம் (sodakumbham) [corrupt form of ஸ உதக கும்பம்= a pot full of water] which forms part of the after-death rites. In this sodakumbham, according to the practice of different regions/families 12 or 16 brāhmaṇas are given fresh clothes (வேஷ்டி & அங்கவஸ்திரம்), a pot made of copper (silver preferred if one can afford) and a glass (லோட்டா or டம்ளர்), again, made of silver or copper as second best plus usual dakṣiṇā (தட்சிணை) to each of these 12 or 16 brāhmaṇas and after washing their feet, they are given sumptuous meals. This can be done at one go or in instalments as per the convenience of the person performing the after-death rites.

These 12 (16) brāhmaṇas are supposed to represent the members of the jury in the பித்ருலோகம் and we are supposed to be doing this sodakumbham in order to please these jury members so that they will decide in favour of admitting the deceased person (father, etc.) into the பித்ருலோகம். Thus our religion has firmly taught us that anyone, even the jury in the பித்ருலோகம், can be "influenced" by pleasing their representative brāhmaṇas in this world. What to say, then, about people living in this world itself?! It is but a striking coincidence that all these rituals including this sodakumbham are part of our Dharmasastras which are firmly believed to have been bequeathed to posterity by (brahmin) sages like Baudhaayana, Apasthamba, Aswalaayana, etc.

Coming to everyday living, our people have firm faith in "nerchais" which function on the basis that if God grants your wish, you will reward him with such-and-such a thing; a quid pro quo in principle. So when our god/s themselves function on this sort of quid pro quo, is it any surprise that our police, government, politicians, indeed our entire country works on purely quid pro quo basis and nothing else?

mkrishna100 · Aug 2, 2015

I will say that our politicians became corrupt because corruption is in our very national ethos, and it has its roots in our hindu religion itself.

The following link has a detailed analysis by Dr.Prabhakar Kamat on the above highlighted aspect and I do not know how far I can agree with the observations by the author but it does need a deeper introspection .

Brahmanism And Mental Blocks Of Hindus

This is the last article in Dr. Prabhakar Kamath’s series on the Truth About The Bhagavad Gita.

I am dedicating this final article in my series on The Truth About The Bhagavad Gita to the youth of India. In this article, we will examine how Brahmanism molded the Hindu mind for 3500 years, and how the vast majority of Hindus, deluded by Brahmanic brainwashing, is woefully unprepared for citizenship of a modern, secular democracy as evidenced by so many unsolved potentially catastrophic societal problems plaguing India since independence. The single most important factor contributing to these problems is masterful inaction by citizens of India. This might seem like a rather drastic statement on my part, but I urge readers to weigh the evidence presented in this article before rebutting my assertion. In fact I invite readers to present evidence to the contrary. Nothing would make me happier than someone proving me wrong in my observations.

For more on this article refer the link :
http://nirmukta.com/2010/05/13/brahmanism-and-mental-blocks-of-hindus/

sangom · Aug 2, 2015

mkrishna100 said:
The following link has a detailed analysis by Dr.Prabhakar Kamat on the above highlighted aspect and I do not know how far I can agree with the observations by the author but it does need a deeper introspection .

Brahmanism And Mental Blocks Of Hindus

This is the last article in Dr. Prabhakar Kamath’s series on the Truth About The Bhagavad Gita.

I am dedicating this final article in my series on The Truth About The Bhagavad Gita to the youth of India. In this article, we will examine how Brahmanism molded the Hindu mind for 3500 years, and how the vast majority of Hindus, deluded by Brahmanic brainwashing, is woefully unprepared for citizenship of a modern, secular democracy as evidenced by so many unsolved potentially catastrophic societal problems plaguing India since independence. The single most important factor contributing to these problems is masterful inaction by citizens of India. This might seem like a rather drastic statement on my part, but I urge readers to weigh the evidence presented in this article before rebutting my assertion. In fact I invite readers to present evidence to the contrary. Nothing would make me happier than someone proving me wrong in my observations.

For more on this article refer the link :
http://nirmukta.com/2010/05/13/brahmanism-and-mental-blocks-of-hindus/

Shri mkrishna ji,

It was so good of you to bring Shri Kamat's articles to the notice of TBF members. I agree with much of Kamat's views.

Today, I thought about the following observation made in one of the articles:

"On the one extreme, they act passive and helpless. They repress their rage like a compressed spring and suffer silently. Then even a small trigger could unleash the spring. Next thing you know they lose all control and lash out in fury."

I feel this applies to many members here!

"From then on accusation of suffering from the delusion of Ahamkara became the ultimate weapon of Brahmanism. Since Brahmanism could not inflict physical punishment like the kings, they resorted to psychological deterrents. To this day, every Brahmanic Guru uses this weapon against critics of Brahmanism. In the Brahmanic society anyone who ever said, “I did this” or “I think like this” “I reject this” risked being accused of Ahamkara. The message of Brahmanism to the lay public was loud and clear: “Your Ahamkara does not behoove you. Do your socially designated duty helplessly and faithfully and be a good citizen. Performing one’s own Dharma, however imperfectly, is better than performing another’s perfectly (3:35). If you see any evil in this system, remember all systems are attended with inherent evil (18:48). That is no reason rebel against it or abandon it. Do not be an upstart.”"

How true!

"Modern India is facing a greater threat to its integrity from Brahmanism than ever before. One major problem India faces today is that most Brahmanic loyalists’ allegiance is to Brahmanism rather than to India even though they claim to be great patriots. Their mindset is that of people living in 10th century. They consider India as Hindu Desh, the land of Hindus, and Brahmanism as its Constitution."

Is this not a correct analysis?

Vaagmi · Aug 2, 2015

sangom said:
Is this not a correct analysis?

It is not.

vgane · Aug 2, 2015

sangom said:
Is this not a correct analysis?

I do not think, Sir..Our Constitution does not give special privileges to the Brahmin...All the brahmins have risen by dint of hard work and their own merit..Only a small miniscule might have been propped up & that not in TN...Today the Tamil Brahmin does not even have the basic right to education! We have to struggle to get admission in to higher centers of learning! We are treated as pariahs by the rest in TN...From where did you get this idea...From Karl Marx?

sangom · Aug 2, 2015

vgane said:
I do not think, Sir..Our Constitution does not give special privileges to the Brahmin...All the brahmins have risen by dint of hard work and their own merit..Only a small miniscule might have been propped up & that not in TN...Today the Tamil Brahmin does not even have the basic right to education! We have to struggle to get admission in to higher centers of learning! We are treated as pariahs by the rest in TN...From where did you get this idea...From Karl Marx?

Shri Ganesh,

In your above post itself you seem to confuse between brahmins, Tamil brahmins and Brahmanism. I don't think Dr. Kamat is talking about the first two but only about the third one, viz., Brahmanism.

Then you say that although today the Tamil Brahmin does not even have the basic right to education! (and) We have to struggle to get admission in to higher centers of learning! We are treated as pariahs by the rest in TN, "all the brahmins have risen by dint of hard work and their own merit"! My simple douubt is, were the pariahs able to rise by dint of their hard work, in our country, at any time till the 19th. or the 20th. century A.D.?

I understand you to be a geek and it is surprising, therefore, to see that you have not been able to separate brahmanism from brahmin:sad:

mkrishna100 · Aug 2, 2015

Is this not a correct analysis?

Sangom Sir

I am reaaly not competent to comment on how far Dr.Prabhakar Kamat is correct but have shared his views here as I consider him to have done a serious study on this subject ( by profession he is a Psychiatrist ) and has done lot of work on Consumer Activism in India and unlike some Dravidian Charlatans he does not hit out at Brahmins / Brahmanism out of hatred but out of serious study . Dr.Prabhakar Kamat has also welcomed people to counter his arguments and I would be happy if some members here give a serious counter to his arguments in case they do not agree with this observations .

vgane · Aug 3, 2015

sangom said:
Shri Ganesh,

In your above post itself you seem to confuse between brahmins, Tamil brahmins and Brahmanism. I don't think Dr. Kamat is talking about the first two but only about the third one, viz., Brahmanism.

I understand you to be a geek and it is surprising, therefore, to see that you have not been able to separate brahmanism from brahmin:sad:

Dear Shri Sangom,

Brahmin Vs Brahmanism is a deceitful ploy used by Westerners..I would call it as a sleight of words to say that I am against Brahmanism but not against Brahmins...This is how the Dravidian hegemonists had grown in TN...You cannot use the same logic as a fellow Brahmin.

Also I brought in the Tamil Brahmin as a victim to show how Brahmanism has been twisted to suit the Western interests to heap calumny on the hapless TB...Today any discussion on Brahmanism has to include the TB as the TB is made a scapegoat of anything to do with Brahmanism

tbs · Aug 3, 2015

Is this not a correct analysis?

hi

not.....may be atheist/agnostic view......brahminism is a poison medicine for many....may br Karl Max view...

yesmohan · Aug 3, 2015

sangom said:
Shri yesmohan,

I will say that our politicians became corrupt because corruption is in our very national ethos, and it has its roots in our hindu religion itself.

You may perhaps be aware of the rite of ஸோதகும்பம் (sodakumbham) [corrupt form of ஸ உதக கும்பம்= a pot full of water] which forms part of the after-death rites. In this sodakumbham, according to the practice of different regions/families 12 or 16 brāhmaṇas are given fresh clothes (வேஷ்டி & அங்கவஸ்திரம்), a pot made of copper (silver preferred if one can afford) and a glass (லோட்டா or டம்ளர்), again, made of silver or copper as second best plus usual dakṣiṇā (தட்சிணை) to each of these 12 or 16 brāhmaṇas and after washing their feet, they are given sumptuous meals. This can be done at one go or in instalments as per the convenience of the person performing the after-death rites.

These 12 (16) brāhmaṇas are supposed to represent the members of the jury in the பித்ருலோகம் and we are supposed to be doing this sodakumbham in order to please these jury members so that they will decide in favour of admitting the deceased person (father, etc.) into the பித்ருலோகம். Thus our religion has firmly taught us that anyone, even the jury in the பித்ருலோகம், can be "influenced" by pleasing their representative brāhmaṇas in this world. What to say, then, about people living in this world itself?! It is but a striking coincidence that all these rituals including this sodakumbham are part of our Dharmasastras which are firmly believed to have been bequeathed to posterity by (brahmin) sages like Baudhaayana, Apasthamba, Aswalaayana, etc.

Coming to everyday living, our people have firm faith in "nerchais" which function on the basis that if God grants your wish, you will reward him with such-and-such a thing; a quid pro quo in principle. So when our god/s themselves function on this sort of quid pro quo, is it any surprise that our police, government, politicians, indeed our entire country works on purely quid pro quo basis and nothing else?

Sir,
I could not understand what you want to impress. Corruption emanates from…. heaven / hell / in between. I hope we can not equate the religious spending with corruption.
After burning the body, after math rituals are optional to the individual. No priest could ever compel us beyond certain level.
I am not questioning the existence of God and future life.
God never asked any rituals in any style. It is said that all rituals like ஸோதகும்பம் (sodakumbham) etc. are said to appease the God / Pithrus and what not. I would not like to comment on the antecedents of the Pithrus (in this world) as the descendants know better.

Whether I like & believe the rituals and ceremonies are not, whether it suits my purse or not, when it comes to me, I would do it and follow it in verbatim what the "enlightened priest” says/preaches.
Why I do and meticulously follow all rituals?
Is it on account of an innate fear in me?
or again to appease the prospective Pithrus around me,may say some thing?.
or with an aim to solace to myself and my family?
Or shy of thinking that society around; will personify me as a miser?

In another context,
I know a big personality, who is a well known person in Tamilnadu, considered as an atheist and revolutionary. Once, his family members did perform in absentia, Mujukundha Archana to “Lord Thiagaraja” of Tiruvarur, by spending more than Rs. 10,000/ in those days.(present equivalent Rs. 1,00,000/-) He is still an atheist, I belief, so also others.
One can talk/write anything; but when it comes to one, one behaves as a social animal.

zebra16 · Aug 3, 2015

Sri Sangom Sir,

sangom said:
Shri yesmohan,

I will say that our politicians became corrupt because corruption is in our very national ethos, and it has its roots in our hindu religion itself.

You may perhaps be aware of the rite of ஸோதகும்பம் (sodakumbham) [corrupt form of ஸ உதக கும்பம்= a pot full of water] which forms part of the after-death rites. In this sodakumbham, according to the practice of different regions/families 12 or 16 brāhmaṇas are given fresh clothes (வேஷ்டி & அங்கவஸ்திரம்), a pot made of copper (silver preferred if one can afford) and a glass (லோட்டா or டம்ளர்), again, made of silver or copper as second best plus usual dakṣiṇā (தட்சிணை) to each of these 12 or 16 brāhmaṇas and after washing their feet, they are given sumptuous meals. This can be done at one go or in instalments as per the convenience of the person performing the after-death rites.

These 12 (16) brāhmaṇas are supposed to represent the members of the jury in the பித்ருலோகம் and we are supposed to be doing this sodakumbham in order to please these jury members so that they will decide in favour of admitting the deceased person (father, etc.) into the பித்ருலோகம். Thus our religion has firmly taught us that anyone, even the jury in the பித்ருலோகம், can be "influenced" by pleasing their representative brāhmaṇas in this world. What to say, then, about people living in this world itself?! It is but a striking coincidence that all these rituals including this sodakumbham are part of our Dharmasastras which are firmly believed to have been bequeathed to posterity by (brahmin) sages like Baudhaayana, Apasthamba, Aswalaayana, etc.

Can you please say the basis of the supposition that those 12/16 brAhmaNAs are representing the members of the jury in the pitru lOkam? Does the mantrAs say so or have Apasthamba, BaudhAyanA or AswalAyana said so?

If a court official comes to my/your residence to serve summons in a case of litigation, and if I/you offer water to him, would that amount to seeking favours from the Court?

If I were to say that the Jury system was known to Hindus at least right from the gruhya sUtra days (quoting the same instance), everyone including your goodselves would have scoffed at me because nothing good has come from Hindus so far. Is there a mention of this supposed jury system anywhere in our scriptures? If not, how is it inferred?

It is rather strange that (according to you) an average Hindu would apply his deductive and inductive logic in vedas, puraNas and gryhya sUtras in this instance and indulge in corruption, but he would not follow the simple and straight forward dictum of (say Apasthambha Gruhya sUtrA) as narrated in sutrA # 18, praSna 2, patala 8, khanda 20, which reads : yA uktA cha DharmA yukteshu dravya parigraheSu cha (And let him acquire money in all lawful ways).

The reasoning appears to me to be rather creative and a novel way to be corrupt.

zebra16 · Aug 3, 2015

A little observation will reveal the reality surrounding us.
Younger generation is not going to come on shining white horses like “kalki avatara” one fine day and demolish all that is corrupt and is not going to write a new Gita, saying there is no God. Hundreds of thousands of toddlers are joining the bandwagon of “youngsters” each day and yesterday’s youngsters are being shifted to the “middle-aged” and “oldies” lot quite unceremoniously without themselves realizing, in some cases.
A little observation goes a long way in assessing the reality which we cannot witness ourselves.
Our forum has been in existence since 2006 (or 2007) I believe and has covered a period of approximately a decade so it could be one of the samples to gauge transformation in the past decade. We have seen “middle aged” and “oldies” moving from asthika to agnostic or atheistic stance, but there has hardly been a born agnostic or atheistic young guy coming here to post about relevance or irrelevance of God.
One just has to witness the crowds at Tirupathi Balaji temple, or Shirdi Saibaba or Siddhi Vinayak temple or the crowds being shown on TV to one of the spectacles like Kumbh-mela or Amarnath yatra or char-dham yatra etc. These are milling with youngsters and they do not appear to belong to “Banish the God” category.
Two news items coming in quick succession from China, the world’s biggest atheist centre, caught my attention, entitled (a) China does not want to suppress Christianity, - just control it (dated 30 July 2015) and (b) President Xi Jiping warns against foreign influence on religion in China (dated 21[SUP]st[/SUP] May 2015), both published in “The Guardian”. The articles are originally sourced from Pew Research Center, a research body and carries a lot more credibility than a blog post. Here are the links:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...nity-removal-crosses-communist-party-churches
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ainst-foreign-influence-on-religions-in-china
So it is to be understood that just as some nations are moving away from religion and theology, there is traffic in the direction too. So religion or religiosity or religiousness is not going away anywhere in a hurry.
Rama and Krishna (and their followers “Hindus”) are the favourite whipping boys of this forum, on whose heads can everything that is wrong with India be dumped with total impunity, including corruption that too totally without regard to any rhyme or reason.
As there is provision in USA and probably in European countries (I am not sure, but am guessing), to find settlement for unfair trade practices (just another form or corruption, but gloriously titled) I just tried to find out the major fines and levies imposed by the enforcement agencies of these countries in the last 5 years.
The following are the results of my finding:
Fines levied by U S Justice Department US $ 2.5 billion
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/five-major-banks-agree-parent-level-guilty-pleas

Fines imposed by FBI US $ 2.3 billion
http://politicalvelcraft.org/2011/0...t-fined-imposed-in-u-s-for-fraud-2-3-billion/
Fines imposed by EU for cartelization alone 6.3 billion Euros = US $ 7 billion approx
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/statistics/statistics.pdf
Fines collected by SEC US $ 4.1 billion
http://wealthmanagement.com/industry/sec-collects-record-41-billion-fines-2014
Total = 2.5 + 2.3 + 1.4 + 4.1 = 10.3 billion U S $

(N B : I am yet to touch the grand repository of corruption scandals - The Transparency International)
Now if these are the fines imposed after due scrutiny, after the perpetrators are caught and when the state has wrought iron cases against them, one can form an idea of corruption in the land of Jesus. Yes there is pervasive corruption in India and this post is not an attempt to whitewash what is wrong with India but the frequent “clean chit” that is being given Jesus is rather overdone.
Just to give a comparison, the scandal surrounding the World Soccer Body FIFA (there is no Rama or Krishna Bhakt in those who resigned or who are being investigated) does not even find a rare mention in our forum, but people will readily blame the vedic age and God bribing as cause of IPL scandal.
For all the pearls of wisdom which we suppose we are giving to the youngsters through these posts, we should realize that these will be discarded as junk of balderdash, just as we dumped the beliefs of our ancestors.

sangom · Aug 3, 2015

mkrishna100 said:
Sangom Sir

I am reaaly not competent to comment on how far Dr.Prabhakar Kamat is correct but have shared his views here as I consider him to have done a serious study on this subject ( by profession he is a Psychiatrist ) and has done lot of work on Consumer Activism in India and unlike some Dravidian Charlatans he does not hit out at Brahmins / Brahmanism out of hatred but out of serious study . Dr.Prabhakar Kamat has also welcomed people to counter his arguments and I would be happy if some members here give a serious counter to his arguments in case they do not agree with this observations .

Shri krishna ji,

I am aware that there are some members here who get "heated up" the moment brahmin or brahminism is blamed for something basically and radically wrong with/lacking in modern India. During my more than 5 years' association with this forum, I have also learned (to my surprise) that the ploy of these "highly inflammable" members is (i) to deny any role for the brahmins in any deficiency in the country and, (ii) to slyly shift all the blame towards the so-called middle castes, and to cite Tamil Nadu as the example for the whole country for millennia!

Dr. Kamat explains his view of brahmanism in the following words, as you can readily see in this article.

To justify this Varna system, the brilliant priests of the Arya culture came up with two astounding doctrines: the doctrines of the Gunas of Prakriti and destiny of Karma.

Brahmanic priests claimed that Prakriti manifested itself in the body of humans in the form of three Gunas (Qualities): Sattva (knowledge, culture, joy), Rajas (passion, greed, drive) and Tamas (ignorance, sloth, laziness). Based on these doctrines, Brahmanism divided the society into four classes: Brahmins (the priestly class of Sattva Guna), Kshatriyas (the warrior class of Rajas Guna), Vaishyas and Sudras (the trader and labor class of Tamas Guna) (BG: 18: 41-44).

Many of the points which Dr. Kamat raises in his series of articles, have been hovering in my mind for quite sometime and so, I found Dr. Kamat's analysis to be quite convincing. My sincere view is that if you only care to read Dr. Kamat's articles in an impartial way, without wearing the "Brahmin" label on your sleeves, you will also find his observations to be true. But this forum and some of its chronically biased members may not agree.

sangom · Aug 3, 2015

vgane said:
Dear Shri Sangom,

Brahmin Vs Brahmanism is a deceitful ploy used by Westerners..I would call it as a sleight of words to say that I am against Brahmanism but not against Brahmins...This is how the Dravidian hegemonists had grown in TN...You cannot use the same logic as a fellow Brahmin.

Also I brought in the Tamil Brahmin as a victim to show how Brahmanism has been twisted to suit the Western interests to heap calumny on the hapless TB...Today any discussion on Brahmanism has to include the TB as the TB is made a scapegoat of anything to do with Brahmanism

Shri ganesh Sir,

The ploy of "westerners' ploy" is a ploy which is invariably grabbed by some members of this forum as a sure defence strategy, when they have to face inconvenient truths which cannot be denied. I have explained how Dr. Prabhakar Kamat has explained "brahmanism" here. You will see that brahmanism is different from brahmins.

You have not explained the dissonance between the two statements,

We are treated as pariahs by the rest in TN, and,

"all the brahmins have risen by dint of hard work and their own merit"!

You have also not thought it fit to reflect on whether the pariahs could rise up by dint of hard work during all of history.

sangom · Aug 3, 2015

yesmohan said:
Sir,
I could not understand what you want to impress. Corruption emanates from…. heaven / hell / in between. I hope we can not equate the religious spending with corruption.
After burning the body, after math rituals are optional to the individual. No priest could ever compel us beyond certain level.
I am not questioning the existence of God and future life.
God never asked any rituals in any style. It is said that all rituals like ஸோதகும்பம் (sodakumbham) etc. are said to appease the God / Pithrus and what not. I would not like to comment on the antecedents of the Pithrus (in this world) as the descendants know better.

Whether I like & believe the rituals and ceremonies are not, whether it suits my purse or not, when it comes to me, I would do it and follow it in verbatim what the "enlightened priest” says/preaches.
Why I do and meticulously follow all rituals?
Is it on account of an innate fear in me?
or again to appease the prospective Pithrus around me,may say some thing?.
or with an aim to solace to myself and my family?
Or shy of thinking that society around; will personify me as a miser?

In another context,
I know a big personality, who is a well known person in Tamilnadu, considered as an atheist and revolutionary. Once, his family members did perform in absentia, Mujukundha Archana to “Lord Thiagaraja” of Tiruvarur, by spending more than Rs. 10,000/ in those days.(present equivalent Rs. 1,00,000/-) He is still an atheist, I belief, so also others.
One can talk/write anything; but when it comes to one, one behaves as a social animal.

Shri yesmohan,

I too can not understand what you want to impress.

Is it that you will not follow all the rituals and hence the significance of any ritual is immaterial to you?

or,

Is it that according to you, corruption emanates from heaven, hell and in-between and so nothing can be done to eradicate corruption?:noidea::sad:

sangom · Aug 3, 2015

zebra16 said:
Sri Sangom Sir,
Can you please say the basis of the supposition that those 12/16 brAhmaNAs are representing the members of the jury in the pitru lOkam? Does the mantrAs say so or have Apasthamba, BaudhAyanA or AswalAyana said so?

Shri Narayanan Sir,

The basis is what I have heard from highly respected Vadhyars and elders who were familiar with our religious rites. They might not have used the words "members of the jury", but that these 12 brahmanas whom we please are representatives of the 12 people who will decide whether the dead pitru may be allowed entry into the pitrulokam or should be denied entry.

If a court official comes to my/your residence to serve summons in a case of litigation, and if I/you offer water to him, would that amount to seeking favours from the Court?

The comparison is very much off the mark. In sodakumbham it is the Karta or the householder who invites the 12 'offcials' to his house; the officials don't come as per orders of the court. Further, it is not merely offering water to drink, but a whole host of gifts and clothes, etc. The best or Uttama practice is supposed to be silver water pot and silver drinking tumbler.

If I were to say that the Jury system was known to Hindus at least right from the gruhya sUtra days (quoting the same instance), everyone including your goodselves would have scoffed at me because nothing good has come from Hindus so far. Is there a mention of this supposed jury system anywhere in our scriptures? If not, how is it inferred?

This is an imaginary situation put forward by you and is superfluous, imo. You could have merely asked, "Is there a mention of this supposed jury system anywhere in our scriptures?". The answer is, yes. Brihaspati Smriti, Manu Smriti, Mahabharata, Katyayana Smriti, Sukranitisara, etc.

It is rather strange that (according to you) an average Hindu would apply his deductive and inductive logic in vedas, puraNas and gryhya sUtras in this instance and indulge in corruption, but he would not follow the simple and straight forward dictum of (say Apasthambha Gruhya sUtrA) as narrated in sutrA # 18, praSna 2, patala 8, khanda 20, which reads : yA uktA cha DharmA yukteshu dravya parigraheSu cha (And let him acquire money in all lawful ways).

The reasoning appears to me to be rather creative and a novel way to be corrupt.

You will agree that brahmins who have read and understood Apastamba Grihya Sutra completely or at least the 18-2-8-20 which you refer to, will be practically nil. This is because though many of us who claim to be brahmins have no knowledge of Sanskrit (we owe our existence to Macaulay and English education and not to our so-called glorious scriptures); even you and I converse here in English through inventions of the westerners whom we are ungrateful enough to accuse of using "westerner's ploys"!

Any ordinary brahmin would have done the sodakumbham rite for his parents or at least witnessed the same done for grandparents or other elders of the family. Hence people are likely to imbibe more from what they actually do (and spend money for) rather than seek out a copy of Apastamba or some other grihya sutra and try to find out the meaning of the sentence 18-2-8-20.

You will, therefore, see for yourself that you are giving an impractical example and questioning my views which come from commonsense!

Why India can not produce its own fighter jets?

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