• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Jambhudwipa in Tamil Literature and Kalidas

Status
Not open for further replies.
996f4-ancient-world-jambudvipa1.jpg


Hindus are unique in preserving their historical and geographical knowledge they have acquired several thousand years ago. During all religious rituals or worship they do announce their intention for the worship in which they say where it is done and when it is done. It is called SANKALPAM in Sanskrit. It is amazing to know their geographical knowledge. They say about their locations. It goes like this: I who live in Jambudwipe….. Bharata Varshe……. Bharat Kande etc. They always say on the banks of which holy river, which holy city, which holy forest area they do it. But Hindus lost much of this wonderful knowledge in the last 3000 years and so they lost the track. Even when they moved to different parts of the earth they were using the same Sankalpa. When you do a thing without proper knowledge and that too in a language (Sanskrit) you don’t know fully, it simply loses its relevance.


Their historical knowledge is also amazing. They say in which Manvatare, in which Sahapte/ year, season, month, Thithi (day) etc in the Sankalpa during every puja/worship. Sankalpa is the intention or purpose or vow one makes before starting a puja/ worship. The Manvantara period takes you back to the remotest time in the earth’s history.


Jambudwipa means the land of Jhambu trees. Tamils also followed the same method and named their land divisions after plants such as Kurinji, Mullai, Neithal, Marutham etc. This shows that Hindus from Kashmir to Kanyakumari thought alike. Please read my earlier post FLOWERS IN TAMIL CULTURE.

5b156-800px-ripe_jamun_fruits.jpg


No other religious worship is done like Hindu worship. No one bothers about when it is done or where it is done. Another interesting point is the botanical and ethnic knowledge Hindus have. They named all the areas after an abundant plant or the ethnic people in the area. Jambu, Salmali and such plant names are given to the geographical areas. But Jambudwipa is synonymous with India that is Bharat.. The word Jambu means a tree known by its botanical name Syzigium cumini (Family Myrtaceae). This tree is found all over India. Tamils also translated the word Jambudwipa as Naavalanthivu and used it in their ancient literature. Naaval Pazam means Jambu fruits. Following references are found in the Sangam Tamil Literature:


Purananauru is an anthology of 400 Tamil verses. This forms the oldest part of Tamil Sangam literature. It has got some important references to the tree. One of the references in verse 397 refers to the special type of gold called Jambunadham. Kalidas refers to this Jhambunadam in Ragu Vamsam 18—44. The same is repeated in Sangam Tamil verses (Puram 397 and Thirumurugatru Padai –Line 18).


Since Kalidas’s hundreds of similes were used by 2000 year old Sangam Tamil poets, I have placed Kalidas before the Sangam period. I have written about it in my previous posts comparing Tamil poets and Kalidas.

Following references are found in Tamil about the tree and the Land of Jhambu tress (Jambudwipa): Paripatal 5-8,9 ,Puram 397, 177-11 ,Perum 465 ,Malai 135, Akam 380, Narr 35-2, Thiru 18, Post Sangam Literature: Mani 25—2—12/16, Silambu 17-15

KALIDAS: Megha 19 talks about the Jambu forests. Ragu 18—44 refers to Jhambu land.
Later Tamil poets such as Appar (in marmaatrah thiruth thandakam) use this more times in their poems.

(This article is posted also in Tamil); pictures are taken from other sites.

1c634-jambudwipa.png
 
If it is in a book call it anything bible, koran, gita, or anything else, does it have to be factual?
You present articles from these mythical books with reverence as if they are scientific revelations? Why?
You could be presenting something from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, or Harry Potter. What is the difference?
 
If it is in a book call it anything bible, koran, gita, or anything else, does it have to be factual?
A probability sure exists, is it not? If we were to go by the logic in your query, can I then ask - if something exists in a book, call it anything, does it have to be fiction (or non-factual)?



You could be presenting something from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, or Harry Potter. What is the difference?
Copyright... perhaps?

Lighter stuff apart - the religious books are written (and propagated) with a conviction that the events actually transpired. Books like Harry Potter are written (and marketed) with the knowledge that they are fantasy/fiction.

A sea of difference, imo.
 
A probability sure exists, is it not? If we were to go by the logic in your query, can I then ask - if something exists in a book, call it anything, does it have to be fiction (or non-factual)?



Copyright... perhaps?

Lighter stuff apart - the religious books are written (and propagated) with a conviction that the events actually transpired. Books like Harry Potter are written (and marketed) with the knowledge that they are fantasy/fiction.

A sea of difference, imo.
Yes one is honest the other dreaming or hallucinating.

Are you saying the religious writer do not an agenda?
.
 
Indians were not ahistorical

Some excerpts from the review of book "Geography, People and Geodynamics of India in Puranas and Epics", Author : KS Valdiya, may be of interest. Full review at Indians were not ahistorical

Noted geologist KS Valdiya investigates the geological history of the Indian subcontinent as mentioned in the epics and Puranas, hitherto a largely neglected field, writes Rohit Srivastava

n the 20th century, Indian scholarship unfortunately internalised his (Macaulay) views and rejected the merit of our ancient literature in totality, as part of a shameful attempt to gain acceptance — jobs, scholarships, seminar invitations — from Western academia, without ever trying to seriously evaluate the corpus and its relevance in our contemporary lives.

As a result of this intellectual abdication, modern Indians are totally disconnected from the intellectual currents of their native tradition over the past 3,000 years and cannot put context to its historical books and epics. In sharp contrast, historians in the West have made strenuous efforts to revisit Greek and Roman mythology with the help of archeology, geology and other branches of science.

According to the Puranas, the earth comprises of seven mega-islands or continents, each one bigger than the other, and all surrounded by oceans of salt water. The mega-islands are Jambudweep, Plaksh, Shalmal, Kush, Kraunch, Shak and Pushkar (Shiva Purana, Pancham Umasanhita, Kurma Purana).

The book scrutinises the Puranas for the geographical history of the subcontinent. The physiology of the country has changed since the time these books were written. The Puranas are part of Itihas (history) of ancient India. But Valdiya proves, with his expertise in geology, that these books also have recorded the changes in the geography of the land at the time the stories were being written.

The author has extensively researched Sanskrit texts, and every sentence is supported by appropriate shlokaswith translations for the benefit of the general reader. Valdiya has taken care to be precise and to keep sceptics quiet with the liberal use of verses from ancient texts, rather than using generalised translations to support his conclusions.


 
We have a strong puranic-itihasic tradition transmitted by oral and practising continum. It is vital that we keep them as standard or reference and evaluate new findings without throwing away old knowledge. The new knowledge keeps changing, often is biased, inconclusive, derived from inadequate and dubitable evidence. Only hindu civilization has survived and is active because of its inherent strength and resilience. Every community of Bharatavarsha has preserved a segment of sanatana dharma in more than one way - knowledge, anushtanam, wealth, religion, worship and many more. We will be doing a great service to our dharma, ancestors, culture and spirituality if we preserve, practice and pass on whatever we can, in whatever measure we are capable of.
 
This is kind of off topic, but I think it fits in here very well considering the general thrust of the posts the OP makes.

My nephew has a prosthesis in his leg as a result of cancer treatment. The family imported a special instrument to make adjustment to the prosthesis. When the part arrived in Chennai the customs clerk classified it as medical equipment which meant my brother-in-law had to pay huge customs duty. It should have been classified as medical instrument for which the customs duty is minimal. His wife was furious, all this is because of the reservation system, these unqualified NBs get to these positions and they can't tell the difference between medical equipment and instrument. My brother-in-law had to meekly correct her -- actually, the customs clerk was a brahmin.
 
Normally the manufacturer classifies the item as per international coding system; goods are not classified by indian customs. When the classification is absent or patently erroneous, it is left to the customs officer to interpret and assign a code. Duty rates for different classifications are decided by the government and published in big volumes. Sometimes the catalogue is also misleading; if it uses hype description classification is left to anybody's guess.

All government servants (income tax, customs etc.) are duty bound to maximise revenue for the government.

A cute way to introduce anti brahmin sentiment, nicely clothed in an emotion packed, heart rending story.

I am not sure what is the intent - wife's prejudice against reservation and NBs or a brahmin sticking to his stand and not willing to help a fellow brahmin.

Was the equipment cleared through the customs; that is more relevant.
 
Dear all

If we dont have historical sense why do we repeat it (Sankalpa) at every Puja?
If we dont have geographical knowledge why do we repeat such things?

Middle East, Far East, Near East== What are all these?
It is not Middle East except to anyone who wrote this!!
It is not Far East to any any one except who wrote this!!

(When I was Senior Sub Editor of Madurai Dinamani, my editor AN Sivaraman banned us from using such expressions. He made us to write which area , or which country)

But the English made us believe this is far, this is middle, this is near and we use it till this day.

So we, Hindus, divided the world according to the knowledge we had at that time.
Still Jambhu fruits are available in plenty in India.

At least we must give the credit of dividing the world on its botanical or zoological things or the ethnic group to Indians.


The English wrote that Indians, lacked historical knowledge and sense and the first History book was Rajatharangini. It is not correct. Even 300 years before this, Karu Nanthadakkan's seventh century Parthivapuram plates give the Kaliyuga in days-- a six or seven digit number.

Even before that we have Gupta inscriptions with such dating.

The English approach was partial. If Greeks mention anything, if Babylonians mention anything, give them the credit, but for Indians turn a blind eye or put it in the negative way- this was their approach.
 
Dear brother sarang, Shri Sangom made a very serious allegation against you and you went silent for several days. He suspects you are a Muslim. I am very skeptical, but, I am very surprised you did not respond. AFAIC, what if you are, you are no less a brother to me, and no more -- your religious persuasion is irrelevant to me, but I think it would mean a great deal to you.
 

Thanks for the post, esp. the diagrams.

Whenever I have read a couple of google books on those divisions, the landmarks, names etc., I struggled with the mapping.

The dwipa is described in Srimad Bhagavatam. It was described as one land mass, like a lotus leaf with the center mound/meru. Looks like, the continents spread out with more geo-activity. This must have been specific to a yuga/era and earth kept changing always over longer periods/yugas.

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5 Chapter 16

Even accor. to scientific history, there was one land mass called 'Pangea'.
 
Ages ago I told you I am not your brother. There cannot be a worse calamity than that.

Surprising to keep tab on who calls who what and waiting for an answer; pathetic. I don't remember when any allegation was made; will respond if it is raised again.

Back to the story; how was the goods cleared? some customs officers, irrespective of their category - reserved or open or forward or brahmin - do help out without expecting anything in return.

If the story carried any other message, I missed it.
Dear brother sarang, Shri Sangom made a very serious allegation against you and you went silent for several days. He suspects you are a Muslim. I am very skeptical, but, I am very surprised you did not respond. AFAIC, what if you are, you are no less a brother to me, and no more -- your religious persuasion is irrelevant to me, but I think it would mean a great deal to you.
 
Thanks for the post, esp. the diagrams.

Whenever I have read a couple of google books on those divisions, the landmarks, names etc., I struggled with the mapping.

The dwipa is described in Srimad Bhagavatam. It was described as one land mass, like a lotus leaf with the center mound/meru. Looks like, the continents spread out with more geo-activity. This must have been specific to a yuga/era and earth kept changing always over longer periods/yugas.

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5 Chapter 16

Even accor. to scientific history, there was one land mass called 'Pangea'.

220px-Pangaea_continents.svg.png

Mr. Govindaji,
Can you explain the similarity between mythical pangea and jambudwipa?
 
Ages ago I told you I am not your brother. There cannot be a worse calamity than that.

My dear brother sarang, this reminds me of my chittappa getting angry with my father and storming out of our house shouting, "you are not my brother". However much you see this as a calamity, we are all brothers and sisters in this world.

Surprising to keep tab on who calls who what and waiting for an answer; pathetic. I don't remember when any allegation was made; will respond if it is raised again.
This is what brothers are for, when a serious allegation is made against my brother I consider it my duty to bring it to his attention so that it can be properly dealt with. Here, I give you the link so that you can consider it and give us a clarification.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12402-saligrama-stone-3.html#post194421


Back to the story; how was the goods cleared? some customs officers, irrespective of their category - reserved or open or forward or brahmin - do help out without expecting anything in return.

If the story carried any other message, I missed it.
Well, obviously, you have completely missed the point, it is not about the medical instrument, it is not about paying duty, etc. I suppose your zeal to criticize your brother, yours truly, blinded you to the point that even in this day and age the Brahmin superiority mindset is latent and ready to burst out. Those who are honest would admit that this is not a story of some isolated bigot, but an all too common one to be found in every family. That is the message, and I posted it because this OP has made a lot of posts proclaiming how great Brahmins are.

Now, as you guys start to bash me for pointing this out, which is fine, please do not ignore the charge that has been made against you, I provide the link a second time for good measure.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12402-saligrama-stone-3.html#post194421

best of love and wishes to you my dear brother sarang
 
Puranic description as per Hindu cosmology


According to Puranic cosmography, the earth is divided into seven concentric island continents (sapta-dvipa vasumati) separated by the seven encircling oceans, each double the size of the preceding one. The seven continents of the Puranas are stated as Jambudvipa, Plaksadvipa, Salmalidvipa, Kushadvipa, Krounchadvipa, Shakdvipa, and Pushkaradvipa. Seven intermediate oceans consist of salt-water, sugarcane juice, wine, ghee, curd, milk and water respectively.

Continent Jambudvipa (Indian Blackberry Island), also known as Sudarshanadvipa, forms the innermost concentric island in the above scheme. Its name is said to derive from a Jambu tree (another name for the Indian Blackberry, a kind of black plum). The fruits of the Jambu tree are said to be as large as elephants and when they become rotten and fall upon the crest of the mountains, a river of juice is formed from their expressed juice. The river so formed is called Jambunadi (Jambu river) and flows through Jambudvipa, whose inhabitants drink its waters. Insular continent Jambudvipa is said to comprise nine varsas (zones) and eight significant mountains.

Markandeya Purana portrays Jambudvipa as being depressed on its south and north and elevated and broad in the middle. The elevated region forms the varsa named Ila-vrta or Meruvarsa. At the center of Ila-vrta lies the golden Mount Meru, the king of mountains and the support of the planet earth. On the summit of Mount Meru is the vast city of Lord Brahma, known as Brahmapuri.

Markandeya Purana and Brahmanda Purana divide Jambudvipa into four vast regions shaped like four petals of a lotus with Mount Meru being located at the center like a pericarp. The city of Brahmapuri is said to be enclosed by the river Ganga, known as Akash Ganga. River Ganga is said to issue forth from the foot of Lord Vishnu and after washing the lunar region falls “through the skies” and after encircling the Brahmapuri “splits up into four mighty streams”, which are said to flow in four opposite directions from the landscape of Mount Meru and irrigate the vast lands of Jambudvipa. River Sita irrigates the Bhadrasva varsa, river Jambunadi streams through the Ketumala varsa, river Alakananda flows through the Bharata varsa and river Bhadra washes the lands of the Uttara-Kuru varsa.

If Ganga flows from Mount Meru, then why is gangotri in Himalayan Range.

Mount Meru (or Sumeru) is identified with the vast Nagard Sarovar in the center of the modern Pamir mountain range.
NOT IN INDIA.
800px-Tarimrivermap.png

The river Sita (Sito of Hiuen Tsiang) corresponds to the Yarkand River. The Yarkand River is a river in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of western China. It is one of the headstreams of the Tarim River.

Bhadrasva varsa probably corresponds to the major part of Xinjiang province of China and the region lying to its east.

Uttara-Kuru varsa is the region to the north of the Pamirs. It probably includes the north-western parts of Xinjiang province of China, the Tien Shan region, and most parts of Kyrgyzstan.

Ketumala varsa is said to be the region spanned by the Amu Darya, and therefore may correspond to western Turkmenistan, north-west Afghanistan (ancient Bactria) and north-east Iran.

The Shakadvipa (the vast Scythe region) was identified by some as north Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan and some regions to north and west of the Caspian Sea.

The author of Vayu Purana uses the name Kumuda-dvipa for Kusha-dvipa. Kumuda is also a Puranic name of a mountain forming the northern buttress of Mount Meru (i.e. Pamirs). In anterior Epic Age Kumuda was the name given to high table-land of the Tartary located to north of the Himalaya range. Thus, the Kumuda-dvipa lay close to the Pamirs. Some scholars connect this Kumuda (the Komdei of Ptolemy, probably Kamdesh from Kamboj-desh?) with ancient Iranian Kambojas.


Does it remotely correspond to modern India?

It is more like we are talking of Central Asia, I thought the Aryan Invasion was debunked.

So this proves that Hinduism does not belong to the Indian subcontinent. It is central Asian.

There should be some connection made to Jambudwipa and Geographic reality of the world.
Or is it all a fiction.

I know some members here have no issue with claiming a pure fiction as science.

So may be India is not in Jambhudwipa.[h=2][/h].
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the post, esp. the diagrams.

Whenever I have read a couple of google books on those divisions, the landmarks, names etc., I struggled with the mapping.

The dwipa is described in Srimad Bhagavatam. It was described as one land mass, like a lotus leaf with the center mound/meru. Looks like, the continents spread out with more geo-activity. This must have been specific to a yuga/era and earth kept changing always over longer periods/yugas.

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5 Chapter 16

Even accor. to scientific history, there was one land mass called 'Pangea'.

Where will you place it in relation to the modern earth?
 
Conclusions by sangom and you are your affair. I am a virat brahmin and proud of my culture, tradition, sampradayam and everything associated it.

I missed sangom's post or I would have responded then, or perhaps not, as I don't have to respond wild and idiotic guesses.

My dear brother sarang, this reminds me of my chittappa getting angry with my father and storming out of our house shouting, "you are not my brother". However much you see this as a calamity, we are all brothers and sisters in this world.

This is what brothers are for, when a serious allegation is made against my brother I consider it my duty to bring it to his attention so that it can be properly dealt with. Here, I give you the link so that you can consider it and give us a clarification.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12402-saligrama-stone-3.html#post194421


Well, obviously, you have completely missed the point, it is not about the medical instrument, it is not about paying duty, etc. I suppose your zeal to criticize your brother, yours truly, blinded you to the point that even in this day and age the Brahmin superiority mindset is latent and ready to burst out. Those who are honest would admit that this is not a story of some isolated bigot, but an all too common one to be found in every family. That is the message, and I posted it because this OP has made a lot of posts proclaiming how great Brahmins are.

Now, as you guys start to bash me for pointing this out, which is fine, please do not ignore the charge that has been made against you, I provide the link a second time for good measure.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12402-saligrama-stone-3.html#post194421

best of love and wishes to you my dear brother sarang
 
..... I am a virat brahmin ....... I missed sangom's post or I would have responded then, or perhaps not, ...
Fair enough my dear brother sarang, I will take your word that you are a virat Brahmin -- BTW what does it mean virat-Brahmin, I thought one of the qualities of Brahmins is humility.

In any case, I once again offer my hand in friendship, the kind of friendship that is characterized by mutual respect and vigorous debate on issues we disagree on, if Rajaji can be friends with EVR why can't you and I be friends? Please think about it.

with lots of brotherly love, Dileepan
 
I don't have to respond to wild and idiotic guesses.
Dear Sarang,
Did you notice that it is almost always those members, who boast that caste/or religion is not important to them, are the ones who raise such questions about fellow members here? They are pretentious at best. You do not have to dignify them with your responses.
 
கால பைரவன்;195603 said:
Dear Prasad, I appreciate your concern. I only wish you had the temerity to say this after post # 8.

You are right, but I do not read every post just after it is posted. I am not the moderator.
 
Regurgling of what was said two years ago, almost verbatim. Who can stop you saying what you want. I will follow the maxim: 'nari valadu pakkam pona enna, idathu pakkam pona enna, mele vizhundu pudungama pona porum'.

But kadikka vanda adichuthan akanum. I will offer my views if brahmins are attacked or undermined, either openly or surreptitiously.

With friends like these, who needs enemies. With brothers like this who needs EVR and black shirts.

I did not miss the point and saw through the BB inputs clothed is a sob story. The lady may have reservations about reserved candidates and reserved postings, but she or her kind never wanted or asked for elimination of sections of society.

Oily, ingratiating message is nauseating. Reserve your brotherhood to your own kind.

My dear brother sarang, this reminds me of my chittappa getting angry with my father and storming out of our house shouting, "you are not my brother". However much you see this as a calamity, we are all brothers and sisters in this world.

This is what brothers are for, when a serious allegation is made against my brother I consider it my duty to bring it to his attention so that it can be properly dealt with. Here, I give you the link so that you can consider it and give us a clarification.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12402-saligrama-stone-3.html#post194421


Well, obviously, you have completely missed the point, it is not about the medical instrument, it is not about paying duty, etc. I suppose your zeal to criticize your brother, yours truly, blinded you to the point that even in this day and age the Brahmin superiority mindset is latent and ready to burst out. Those who are honest would admit that this is not a story of some isolated bigot, but an all too common one to be found in every family. That is the message, and I posted it because this OP has made a lot of posts proclaiming how great Brahmins are.

Now, as you guys start to bash me for pointing this out, which is fine, please do not ignore the charge that has been made against you, I provide the link a second time for good measure.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12402-saligrama-stone-3.html#post194421

best of love and wishes to you my dear brother sarang
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top