A Vedic Marriage Ceremony

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

In the TamBrahm (read Vedic) marriage ceremony there are several procedures which explain the core principle of a Vedic marriage. Most 'Vaathiyars' do not know the meaning of the mantras. As the chew and spew the mantras, bride and groom try to catch the jumbo-mumbo from Vaathiyars mouth and vomit it, as they try to get rid of the pains of the procedure asap.

If one really understands the meaning of these mantras, atleast the critical ones, it would go a long way in helping them to lead their life peacefully and happily.

Marriage in our dharma is based on friendship between two individuals without any mutual expectations. If the couple really understand it and treat their spouse as first and best friend, share all their egos and expectations fully, there would not be any divorces and suicides.

Though the marriage ceremony may itself get elongated, it is high time our Vaathiyars learn the meanings of mantras and then explain them in Tamil to couple, their families and the audience. It is extremely important to save our marriage institution.

Here are some meanings from the invitation of my upcoming brother's marriage. I wish him all the best and a very happy married life. I hope the couple and their families remain true to their words and meanings here..

sangom · Dec 28, 2012

thebigthinkg said:
In the TamBrahm (read Vedic) marriage ceremony there are several procedures which explain the core principle of a Vedic marriage. Most 'Vaathiyars' do not know the meaning of the mantras. As the chew and spew the mantras, bride and groom try to catch the jumbo-mumbo from Vaathiyars mouth and vomit it, as they try to get rid of the pains of the procedure asap.

If one really understands the meaning of these mantras, atleast the critical ones, it would go a long way in helping them to lead their life peacefully and happily.

Marriage in our dharma is based on friendship between two individuals without any mutual expectations. If the couple really understand it and treat their spouse as first and best friend, share all their egos and expectations fully, there would not be any divorces and suicides.

Though the marriage ceremony may itself get elongated, it is high time our Vaathiyars learn the meanings of mantras and then explain them in Tamil to couple, their families and the audience. It is extremely important to save our marriage institution.

Here are some meanings from the invitation of my upcoming brother's marriage. I wish him all the best and a very happy married life. I hope the couple and their families remain true to their words and meanings here..

View attachment 2404

Dear TBT,

In a strictly vedic marriage, "kanyaadaanam" does not seem to be a part, because there is no vedic mantra/s for this. What you have cited in the Invitation, viz.,"|| तुभ्यम् दत्त कुमार धर्म च अर्थे च कामे च त्ववेयम् परिचरणीय || (tubhyam datta kumāra dharma ca arthe ca kāme ca tvaveyam paricaraṇīya)" also appears not very meaningful. Why should the bride's father address the groom as "kumaara"? Also the word "dattam" does not mean 'adopted'. In an adoption the adopter will say "I adopt" and here the giver says "I give you", that is why it is 'kanyaa daanam' and not "kanyaa dattam".

Lastly, if we assume that the girl is really adopted into your family, she will become your sister; there is no provision to "adopt" a daughter-in-law.

Marriage in our dharma is based on friendship between two individuals without any mutual expectations. If the couple really understand it and treat their spouse as first and best friend, share all their egos and expectations fully, there would not be any divorces and suicides.

If there are no mutual expectations then where does the obligation of "share all their egos and expectations fully" arise? This is a mutually contradictory statement. It seems you are a tabra. If so, your brother and all other members of your immediate family will do well to realize that today's tabra marriage means you are getting a girl as your wife/daughter-in-law, manni, or whatever, that she commands maximum respect, attention, etc., and it is the duty of your brother and all of you to ensure that she does not get displeasure at any time. Or else, be prepared for the inevitable — divorce! மந்திராத்தாலெ மாமரம் முளைக்கவைக்கலாம் ஆனால் மாட்டுப்பெண்ணை திருப்திப்படுத்த முடியாது (mantras may help you in the magic of creating a mango tree from nowhere, but it will not help in getting a loving daughter-in-law.)

Raji Ram · Dec 28, 2012

Your post is going to scare T B T for sure!

I have one honest doubt. Even if the meaning of the 'manthrams' are told by the sAstrigaL,

will the groom give due respect to the promises he makes during the wedding ceremony? :noidea:

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

sangom said:
Dear TBT,

In a strictly vedic marriage, "kanyaadaanam" does not seem to be a part, because there is no vedic mantra/s for this. What you have cited in the Invitation, viz.,"|| तुभ्यम् दत्त कुमार धर्म च अर्थे च कामे च त्ववेयम् परिचरणीय || (tubhyam datta kumāra dharma ca arthe ca kāme ca tvaveyam paricaraṇīya)" also appears not very meaningful. Why should the bride's father address the groom as "kumaara"? Also the word "dattam" does not mean 'adopted'. In an adoption the adopter will say "I adopt" and here the giver says "I give you", that is why it is 'kanyaa daanam' and not "kanyaa dattam".

Lastly, if we assume that the girl is really adopted into your family, she will become your sister; there is no provision to "adopt" a daughter-in-law.

If there are no mutual expectations then where does the obligation of "share all their egos and expectations fully" arise? This is a mutually contradictory statement. It seems you are a tabra. If so, your brother and all other members of your immediate family will do well to realize that today's tabra marriage means you are getting a girl as your wife/daughter-in-law, manni, or whatever, that she commands maximum respect, attention, etc., and it is the duty of your brother and all of you to ensure that she does not get displeasure at any time. Or else, be prepared for the inevitable — divorce! மந்திராத்தாலெ மாமரம் முளைக்கவைக்கலாம் ஆனால் மாட்டுப்பெண்ணை திருப்திப்படுத்த முடியாது (mantras may help you in the magic of creating a mango tree from nowhere, but it will not help in getting a loving daughter-in-law.)

Dear Sangom,

1. Kanyadaanam is a part of Brahmadeya marriage from very old times. Females moving to new groups, which is the basis of gotra system, is observed even in the primates, not just in humans.

2. Kumara means young man. That is all. I don't see any issue in it. 'Dattam' is giving for adoption, 'Danam' is used as a gift (giving away). And I can only smile at your idea that adoption is only for a daughter and the girl becomes a sister. That idea is also wrong.

3. Marriage is all about friendship between individuals and that is the core message of that invitation. It also talks about how women have to be treated/respected as it is in scriptures. If couples understand it and families understand how they have to treat the girl, then there is NO need to satisfy anyone.

Just accept each other as it is with all deficiencies and defects.

5. And sir, while I may be younger than you, I have a college going daughter and have spent 20+ years in understanding/researching our culture/literature and last decade in vedic scriptures. I have been married for quite long to experience how marriages, in-laws, personal ego clashes and relationships work.

-TBT

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

Raji Ram said:
Your post is going to scare T B T for sure!

I have one honest doubt. Even if the meaning of the 'manthrams' are told by the sAstrigaL,

will the groom give due respect to the promises he makes during the wedding ceremony? :noidea:

Dear Raji Ram

After 20 years of married life, do u think I will get scared..?

Actually I am really telling you that in my personal experience marriage is all about friendship between individuals. Accept each other with deficiencies and defects.

That is what I told my bro.
-TBT

renuka · Dec 28, 2012

When any one asks advise regarding married life/marriage etc..frankly speaking I tell them nothing.
I just tell them best of luck.

Marriages are like finger prints..no marriages are alike..so what works for me might not work for another person.

So I always tell people "Best of Luck" and nothing more.

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

Dear Sangom,

I posted a reply.. not sure why it does not appear... In any case just reposting it..

1. In Brahmadeya marriage Kanyadana is a very vital part. Females moving to another group is the basis of gotra system and is present even in primates. It is from very old times.

2. 'Dattam' which actually means adoption is not limited to daughter (I smiled at your elaboration making the incoming girl a sister...) and Kumara means young man.

3. The invitation conveys the fact that marriage is all about friendship between individuals. Our saptatpadi talks about it. currently people think that Kanya Dana means women are gifted out or kind of given away and hence people don't treat women with respect, while in our procedures we proclaim the girl as goddess saraswati and groom ties mangalyam believing her to protect him.

4. Over a period we have lost all meanings of our procedures and symbolism has become the real meaning. Our society has become male chauvinistic. I see that chauvinism deeply ingrained in many males of our society.

5. I am married for two decades now, have a college going daughter, has spent quite an amount of time on several scriptures and the advise of friendship being the basis of marriage is not just from scriptures, but from my personal experience also..

-TBT

renuka · Dec 28, 2012

I was just wondering..not all types of Indian Hindu marriages have Mangalsutra..so in that case can an online marriage be done?

May be girl and boy are living in different countries..and through Skype/Yahoo Messenger Video Call..The priest contacts both of them.

Recites the mantras and get them married.

Just a thought. Saves lots of money.

Just need a good internet connection..that's all.

Cos I was thinking in some religions a Talak uttered through sms/email too is valid so why not have online marriages?

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

renuka said:
When any one asks advise regarding married life/marriage etc..frankly speaking I tell them nothing.
I just tell them best of luck.

Marriages are like finger prints..no marriages are alike..so what works for me might not work for another person.

So I always tell people "Best of Luck" and nothing more.

True to some extent.

But I seriously urge to have a look at our scriptures, understand them and everyone will have a better way of handling it, if they understand it.

Look at this:
Love Marriage, Arranged Marriage or Live-in Relationship..??

-TBT

Brahin · Dec 28, 2012

renuka said:
I was just wondering..not all types of Indian Hindu marriages have Mangalsutra..so in that case can an online marriage be done?

May be girl and boy are living in different countries..and through Skype/Yahoo Messenger Video Call..The priest contacts both of them.

Recites the mantras and get them married.

Just a thought. Saves lots of money.

Just need a good internet connection..that's all.

Cos I was thinking in some religions a Talak uttered through sms/email too is valid so why not have online marriages?

Dear Renu nice idea than people can have multiple marriages.....LOL

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

Mangal sutra is not really our core marriage ceremony. As I explained in that invitation, it is just tying of an amulet by groom to invoke the power in his bride to protect him from sins/evils.

The real ceremony is saptapadi, which is taking seven vows, seven steps before sacred fire..? how do u do it online..?

-TBT

renuka · Dec 28, 2012

thebigthinkg said:
Mangal sutra is not really our core marriage ceremony. As I explained in that invitation, it is just tying of an amulet by groom to invoke the power in his bride to protect him from sins/evils.

The real ceremony is saptapadi, which is taking seven vows, seven steps before sacred fire..? how do u do it online..?

-TBT

Dear Sir,

May be have a virtual fire where the groom and bride can move the lap top mouse around it to simulate walking around fire.

May be some IT expert can come out with some new software that is specifically made for Hindu marriage to give a full holographic 3D effect of marriage itself.

I remember being to a website once where we can do online pooja..free of charge.

We click the Aarti Icon..and move the mouse around the Idol.

Even Naivedyam can be offered virtually..just click the icons.

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

renuka said:
Dear Sir,

May be have a virtual fire where the groom and bride can move the lap top mouse around it to simulate walking around fire.

May be some IT expert can come out with some new software that is specifically made for Hindu marriage to give a full holographic 3D effect of marriage itself.

Who knows it can happen in future..

Marriage is about moving from living with each other to living in each other (in my view).. BTW, today is my wife's birthday and I wrote her this..

TheBigThinkg Poems: Living in each other..

-TBT

prasad1 · Dec 28, 2012

renuka said:
Dear Sir,

May be have a virtual fire where the groom and bride can move the lap top mouse around it to simulate walking around fire.

May be some IT expert can come out with some new software that is specifically made for Hindu marriage to give a full holographic 3D effect of marriage itself.

I remember being to a website once where we can do online pooja..free of charge.

We click the Aarti Icon..and move the mouse around the Idol.

Even Naivedyam can be offered virtually..just click the icons.

OK Renukaji,
Where are we going with all that.
Where is my wedding feast? Please don't tell me that too is virtual.

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

sangom said:
Dear TBT,

In a strictly vedic marriage, "kanyaadaanam" does not seem to be a part, because there is no vedic mantra/s for this. What you have cited in the Invitation, viz.,"|| तुभ्यम् दत्त कुमार धर्म च अर्थे च कामे च त्ववेयम् परिचरणीय || (tubhyam datta kumāra dharma ca arthe ca kāme ca tvaveyam paricaraṇīya)" also appears not very meaningful. Why should the bride's father address the groom as "kumaara"? Also the word "dattam" does not mean 'adopted'. In an adoption the adopter will say "I adopt" and here the giver says "I give you", that is why it is 'kanyaa daanam' and not "kanyaa dattam".

Lastly, if we assume that the girl is really adopted into your family, she will become your sister; there is no provision to "adopt" a daughter-in-law.

If there are no mutual expectations then where does the obligation of "share all their egos and expectations fully" arise? This is a mutually contradictory statement. It seems you are a tabra. If so, your brother and all other members of your immediate family will do well to realize that today's tabra marriage means you are getting a girl as your wife/daughter-in-law, manni, or whatever, that she commands maximum respect, attention, etc., and it is the duty of your brother and all of you to ensure that she does not get displeasure at any time. Or else, be prepared for the inevitable — divorce! மந்திராத்தாலெ மாமரம் முளைக்கவைக்கலாம் ஆனால் மாட்டுப்பெண்ணை திருப்திப்படுத்த முடியாது (mantras may help you in the magic of creating a mango tree from nowhere, but it will not help in getting a loving daughter-in-law.)

And on the friendship part, while getting into a marriage, people should not be having expectations from a marriage. But in Life, as we progress, in every incident there are expectations. Those need to be shared with each other. What is the contradiction in it..?

P.J. · Dec 28, 2012

Renuka Madam

The primary witness of a Hindu marriage is the fire-deity (or the Sacred Fire) Agni, and by law and tradition, no Hindu marriage is deemed complete unless seven encirclements have been made around Sacred Fire, by the bride and the groom together; Remember "Together".

How can this be done when Bride and Bridegroom are in different places?
Also the the Sanctity is lost in such marriages done before virtual Fire

sangom · Dec 28, 2012

Raji Ram said:
Your post is going to scare T B T for sure!

I have one honest doubt. Even if the meaning of the 'manthrams' are told by the sAstrigaL,

will the groom give due respect to the promises he makes during the wedding ceremony? :noidea:

Smt. Raji Ram,

AFAIK in our vaideeki marriage, the groom just does not make any promises to either the bride or any one else; the bride also does not. By chanting the mantra starting, "sakhaa saptapadaa bhava...", the groom merely gives expression to some sentiments which may be translated as : ஏழு அடிகளைத் தாண்டின நீ என் தோழியாக ஆகுவாயாக. ஏழு அடிகளை சேர்ந்து தாண்டின நாம் சிநேகிதர்களாக ஆகிவிட்டோம்...புருஷப் பிரஜைகளை அடைவதர்க்காக திருவின் பொருட்டு, பிள்ளையின் பொருட்டு இன்சொல் உடையவளாக வருவாயாக.

You had given some 'promises' as shown in some foreign website, in some other context, but that just does not figure in our mantras and I had pointed this out also giving the saptapadee mantras. In case you know the mantras giving the promises, kindly give. Otherwise, you can forget this notion of husband making promise/s in a tabra, vedic (vaideeka) marriage.

sangom · Dec 28, 2012

thebigthinkg said:
And on the friendship part, while getting into a marriage, people should not be having expectations from a marriage. But in Life, as we progress, in every incident there are expectations. Those need to be shared with each other. What is the contradiction in it..?

Friendship is also based on the minimum expectation that the other person will make a good friend; if this expectation is not there, even school/college friendships will not be struck, imo. And when we talk about "expectations" as the married life progresses, how can such expectations be even justified when the initial friendship agreement itself was based on a "no expectations" condition?

prasad1 · Dec 28, 2012

sangom said:
Smt. Raji Ram,

AFAIK in our vaideeki marriage, the groom just does not make any promises to either the bride or any one else; the bride also does not. By chanting the mantra starting, "sakhaa saptapadaa bhava...", the groom merely gives expression to some sentiments which may be translated as : ஏழு அடிகளைத் தாண்டின நீ என் தோழியாக ஆகுவாயாக. ஏழு அடிகளை சேர்ந்து தாண்டின நாம் சிநேகிதர்களாக ஆகிவிட்டோம்...புருஷப் பிரஜைகளை அடைவதர்க்காக திருவின் பொருட்டு, பிள்ளையின் பொருட்டு இன்சொல் உடையவளாக வருவாயாக.

You had given some 'promises' as shown in some foreign website, in some other context, but that just does not figure in our mantras and I had pointed this out also giving the saptapadee mantras. In case you know the mantras giving the promises, kindly give. Otherwise, you can forget this notion of husband making promise/s in a tabra, vedic (vaideeka) marriage.

Even if a vow is made as in Christian wedding, a sample one is here:

In the name of Jesus, I ___ take you, ___, to be my (husband/wife), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, for as long as we both shall live. This is my solemn vow.

It is not worth the breath.

A court wedding with a contract again has no merit.
Similarly A "vedic" wedding has no meaning if the parties concerned do not care about each other. The marriage is going to fail.
I have seen people living together for 20 years without any marriage ceremony.

So ultimately it boils down to mutual respect for the partner.
The social, legal, and moral wedding is for friends and family to have an occasion to celebrate.

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

sangom said:
Friendship is also based on the minimum expectation that the other person will make a good friend; if this expectation is not there, even school/college friendships will not be struck, imo. And when we talk about "expectations" as the married life progresses, how can such expectations be even justified when the initial friendship agreement itself was based on a "no expectations" condition?

Well, is there not a difference..? Expectations while getting into a marriage and expectations from the spouse..?

Yes, both people have to get into marriage in the same way. Otherwise it wont work. So..?

And what happened to my other replies..?
-TBT

thebigthinkg · Dec 28, 2012

Dear Prasad

While I agree that unless mutual respect is not there, it does not help, I think vaidika procedures do make a lot of sense. It is not just occasion to celebrate.

In the Ghrya sutras there are actually seven vows, unlike what sangom writes here. In the smarta tradition it is shortenend to prayers to Vishnu.

See here Saptapadi

We throw away the diamonds as stones and then search for diamonds or lament about our life..

-TBT

Raji Ram · Dec 28, 2012

sangom said:
......... You had given some 'promises' as shown in some foreign website, in some other context, but that just does not figure in our mantras and I had pointed this out also giving the saptapadee mantras. In case you know the mantras giving the promises, kindly give. Otherwise, you can forget this notion of husband making promise/s in a tabra, vedic (vaideeka) marriage.

Dear Sir,
Now I get it right! And also know why there are many divorces - because there is NO promise!! eace:

Raji Ram · Dec 28, 2012

Dear Renu,

What new ideas are given by you! WOW!! In case of a wedding through internet, the couple may create some icons
as their kids and live happily ever after since real kids are noisy and expensive!! (Ref: A dialogue in 'Jurassic park' movie). :high5:

Raji Ram · Dec 28, 2012

ஏழு அடிகளைத் தாண்டின நீ என் தோழியாக ஆகுவாயாக. ஏழு அடிகளை சேர்ந்து தாண்டின நாம் சிநேகிதர்களாக ஆகிவிட்டோம்...புருஷப் பிரஜைகளை அடைவதர்க்காக திருவின் பொருட்டு, பிள்ளையின் பொருட்டு இன்சொல் உடையவளாக வருவாயாக.

OK! So, after taking seven steps, the couple become just friends. For begetting progenies, the lady is invited to come with nice words.

May be, this implies that once the lady starts fighting with harsh words, they are not a couple anymore!! :dizzy:

Raji Ram · Dec 28, 2012

P.J. said:
........ The primary witness of a Hindu marriage is the fire-deity (or the Sacred Fire) Agni, and by law and tradition, no Hindu marriage is deemed complete unless seven encirclements have been made around Sacred Fire, by the bride and the groom together; Remember "Together". .......

P J Sir,

The couple encircle the Agni only thrice and take the seven steps while coming around. Right?

A Vedic Marriage Ceremony

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