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  1. #21
    ravisastrigal is offline Newbie
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    Nalan

    I am really happy that I have found the right place to improve my knowledge and involve my self in community service. Let us strive together to probagate the benefits of following the tradition of follwoing Vaideeka Brammanathvam.

    Regards to all members,

    Nalan.
  2. #22
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Vedanti

    Namaskarams.

    I am thankful that you have decided to let Reason Rule over Passion, listening to my words.

    You have stated:

    1. Archives Available At Archeaology Deptartment Of Kerala Show Manuscripts Proving Beyond Doubt That Adi Shankara Was Born During 9th Century,and It Was Based On These Original Documents Of Kochi Raja Parampara And Trichur Temple Olai Chavudi,indian Government After A Careful Study And Research Declared In The Gazette That Adi Shankara Was Born During 9th Century
    2. Additional Prrof Of This Is Available At Kashmir Kingdom Archives And Kasi Mahasamstana Charitam All Available Archives Mainted By Historians Time To Time Prove Beyond Doubtthe Time Of Shankara

    My reply:

    I am unable to comprehend whether you have had access to these Archives of the Archeology department of Kerala at all. You also assert that these manuscripts prove beyond doubt that Adi Shankara was born during 9th Century. You have not mentioned if it is BCE or CE. I assume that you have only referred to CE going by the claims made by some (not all) the followers of Shringeri Matham. You also base them on the original documents of Kochi Raja Parampara and Trichur Temple Olai Chuvadi. Or for that matter the Archives of Kashmir Kingdom or Kasi Mahasamstana Charitram. I have my doubts as to whether you have even seen them as well as the so called Gazatte that you refer to, which states that Adi Shankara was born during the 9th Century. I can say with certainty that you have not read them, seen them or even had any access to them, that you have not even met someone who had so read, seen or had any access.
    You may be surprised at such blatant denial by me. I have arrived at this fact simply on the basis of your claim that "it is proved beyond doubt that Adi Shankara was born during the 9th Century" This is not in line even with the claim of some (not all) of the followers of Shringeri Matham. They claim that the year of birth of Adi Shankara as 788 CE. That is eighth century CE and not 9th Century CE. Therefore I arrive at the conclusion that you have not gone through the very records quoted by you or for that matter the claim of some (not all) Shringeri followers. I request you to please read the relevant records (including the ones that I can give you if there is a way of personal contact) and arrive at an informed decision yourselves. It would be advisable for you not to pass a decree on the age of Adi Shankara without reading the records.
    I may mention here that you have chosen to ignore the stone art and sculptures that I have already referred to in my earlier post and given a conclusive status to the records that you have never even seen. Any historian would say that the stone art and sculptures of India have a better historic value than the manuscripts as the manuscripts do have the possibility of interpolations during the interrugnum (later years). It may also be possible that the old manuscripts would have lost life and new ones substituted for the old. Moreover the Kochi Rajavamsam commences during 12th Century CE. How can that be authentic source to decide the age of Adi Shankara which even according to some (not all) of the followers of Shringeri Matham is 788 CE. Do the Kochi Rajavamsam records have conclusive value on the age of Shankara even overriding the Adhishtanam of Sri Sureshwaracharya located in the Kanchi Maham premises? The answer is an emphatic "No"

    By the way, what do the "Kochi Raja vamsam" say about their own history? Do they have the records to prove their own history? Not at all. They say the following about themselves:

    "There is no historically written evidence about the emergence of Kingdom Of Cochin or of the Cochin Royal Family (Perumpadapu Swaroopam). All that is recorded are through folk tales and stories. So what we have today is only a blurred picture."

    How do you assert then that the Kochi Royal Family library has manuscripts that prove the age of Shankara beyond doubt as 9th Century?

    By the way even the Kerala Namboothiris do not state that Sri Adi Shankara established Mathams at Shringeri, Dwarakai, Badri, Pune and Kanchi, but state that the mathams were Thekke Matham (in Trichur), Idayil Matham, Vadakke Matham and Naduvil Matham. Therefore there is no way a record could be there in Kochi Archives stating the way you have mentioned that is that "there were only four Amneyas Shringeri, Dwaraka, Badri and Pune." If at all it is there, it should only state about the Thekke Matham at Trichur and not Shringeri. The following is the claim of the Kerala Namboothiris.

    In addition to the established Kerala roots of Sree Sankaraachaarya Bhagavath Paadar, there are legends and popular believes that bring forth his zeal and concern for the improvement and progress of the people of Kerala. Some of these are briefly mentioned here.
    The "Kollavarsham", the Malayalam Era is said to have been established in his honour. (see box).
    The 64 Anaachaarams was established by him specially for Kerala.
    Four Samnyaasi Matthams were established in Thrissivaperoor by Sankaraachaaryar. He kept his disciple Padmapaadar in charge of Thekke (south) Mattham, Sureswaran, that of Naduvil (middle) Mattham, Hasthaamalakan in Itayil (in-between) Mattham, and Thodakan in Vadakke (north) Mattham. Itayil Mattham later merged with Thekke Mattham; Vadakke Mattham later became a school for Rigvedam studies, and came to be called "Brahmaswam Mattham".
    Contrary to an opinion in some quarters that the Aachaaryar did not have any disciples from Kerala, it is believed that Padmapaadar and Chithsukhan were Namboothiris from Kerala. A Granthham, "Padmapaada Charitham" identifies him as a Namboothiri from Vemanna Amsom of Alathur. He is credited by some to have himself established Thekke Mattham of Thrissur, where later, Vilwamangalam, the author of "Krishna Karnaamritham", was a Swaamiyaar. Apparently there was to be another Padmapaadaachaaryar in Thekke Mattham much later during the 13th century, who earlier was one Neelakandhan, son of Keera Sarman of Kondayur, on the banks of the Nila river. There is also a belief that it was Padmapaadar who established the temple and consecrated the deity at Badari and who set the norm that only a Namboothiri from Kerala, should be the priest there.
    source: http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/...aachaaryar.htm
    It is therefore I state with reason that you have not had any access to these archives.

    I will continue......
    Last edited by appaiah; 31-03-2008 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Ineffective hyperlink inside the quoted text removed.
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  4. #23
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Vedanti

    Namaskarams again. I continue to place my reply before you.

    You had given the following as proof of Shankara Matham at Kanchi not being founded by Sri Adi Shankara:

    Also Shiva Stavam By Appaya/neelakanta Dikshitar Also Refers To The Same
    I have not read the stated work of Sri Appayya Dikshitar. I am ignorant of this. I will try to get to it, have it read and explained to me. I do not know if I will be blessed to get near it. I made an enquiry with an elderly scholar as to this work named Shiva Stavam by Sri Appayya Dikshitar. He said that Dikshitar had rendered at least 104 works in Sanskrit and to his little knowledge "Shiva Stavam" did not figure in that. He remembered that Sri Appayya Dikshitar had rendered "Varadaraja Stavam" "Apitakuchamba Stavam" and "Shanti Stavam" He stated that these were in the nature of praise of the respective God or Goddess and not in the nature of any history. He added that the work may carry a different name too as most of the literary works carry more than one name. He has asked me to request you to please inform if there is another name for this work or as to whether and where one could get access to it. He added that Sri Appayya Dikshitar was a philosopher and not a historian. Though he was a Chief Minister in a kingdom, he had written only about philosophy, advaita, visishtatvaita, dvaita , bhashyams or commentaries, or stotras on Vishnu, Shiva or Shakti. His mentioning about the Shringeri or Kanchi Matham in his works would be far from reality was his view.

    The logic goes thus: If the Shankara Matham was existing in Kanchipuram during his life time, he need not have referred to it. If it did not exist as claimed by some (not all) followers of Shringeri Matham, he still need not have referred to it. Needless to say, he would not have said that the Kanchi Matham was not founded by Adi Shankara as claimed by some (and not all) followers of Shringeri Matham, who even now claim that only during the life time of Paramacharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswati Swamigal, the Shankaracharya in the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham lineage, that the Matham was founded by Adi Shankara.

    Sri Appayya Dikshitar's family deity (Kula Devata) was Sri Margabandhuswamy. These days many claim to be Appayya Dikshitar's Vamsam and "good lot" of them are followers of Shringeri. "Sir" C.P.Ramasamy Iyer's siblings are among them. All these claimants to the lineage of Sri Appayya Dikshitar do not worship Sri Margabandhuswamy as the Kula Devata, which proves their false claim to the lineage of Sri Appayya Dikshitar. These are the ones who state that Sri Dikshtar was a follower of Shringeri and I presume that you have quoted Sri Dikshitar arising out of such hearsay. Hearsay is not history. Our traditions, gothras, pravarams above all Kula Devata give us the vital lead to various points in history. I can say that Sri Dikshitar was a follower of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham as I know personally some in the real vamsavali of Sri Dikshitar and they even to day are the followers of Sri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham and they have Sri Margabandhuswamy as the Kuladevata.
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  6. #24
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Vedanti

    Namaskarams again. My reply continues.

    You had stated:

    Kanchi Matam Popularly Known As Kumbakonam Matam Till About 40 Years Back Was Only A Small Mutt At Kumbakonam,if You Go Through The Land Record Sof Kanchipuram You Will Find That Kanchi Mutt Purchased The Place From Mosque Land In Early 50`s And Called Itself Kamakoti Peetam
    This is precisely what I had earlier stated. Due to the Muslim invasion during 1740s and 1750s (Hyder Ali captured Vellore in 1752 CE) the Kanchi Matham shifted to Kumbakonam unable to bear the ill treatment. You have proved the point that the Matham lands were usurped by Hyder Ali's men and a mosque was put up there. Later when the things were better politically, the Matham returned to its original place. Later it would have purchased "its own land" from the mosque. But that doesnot mean that the Matham was not founded by Adi Shankara.

    As to the Kumbakonam Matham, it is only during a visit of a Shringeri Acharya to Kumbakonam there was a skirmish among the followers of both the Acharyas resulting in a law and order problem, in which the British Court ruled in favour of the Kanchi followers. This incident is kept in mind by the followers of Shringeri and they have cooked up the story that the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham is not founded by Sri Adi Shankara and they carry on this vicious propaganda till date.

    I will continue .....
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  8. #25
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Vedanti

    Namaskarams again. I continue my reply:

    Ironically It Was After Release Of This Book Kanchi Mutt Put Up A Stupa At Kalady-acknowleding It As Birth Place Of Shankara-automaticaaly Acknowledging The Time Of Birth Too.
    I am unable to comprehend as to how the putting up of a Stupi at Kaladi would acknowledge the time of birth. What is the connection? The Stupi does contain the correct birth year of Adi Shankara as 509 BCE. If that is what you mean by acknowledgment of the time of birth then - yes it is 509 BCE.
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  10. #26
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Vedanti

    Namaskarams again. My reply continues.

    Even The Archives Of Tanjore Maratas The Kings Of Tanjore It Tells How Kumbakonam Mutt Came Into Exixtence And The Other Legacies Understand Muzhu Pushunikaya Chathikulla Maraka Mudiyathu
    Even Archives Of Ramanathapuram Kingdom Throws Lot Of Light Into This And The Autobiography Of One Of The Recent Kings Of Ramanathapuram Or Ramnad Tells About Lot Of Stories With Evidences Of Record Manuplacations.
    As A Vedanti My Humble Request Is That Please Shed Egos Apart And Try To Understand Truth Which Is The Basics For Moksha Marga
    There Are Only 4 Vedas,4 Maha Vakyas,4 Directions And 4 Mutts
    I can say with certainty that the archives of Tanjore Maratas donot contain anything as you wishfully imagine. I am unable to comprehend as to what you mean by "Muzhu Pushunikaya Chathikulla Maraka Mudiyathu" Do you mean to say that it is not possible for you to cover up the Adhishtanam of Sri Bhagavat Pada Adi Shankara or that of Sri Sureshwaracharya or for that matter the Sri Ganapati vigraham and the stone work depicting the tirumeni of Sri Bhagavat Pada Adi Shankara in the Kanchi Matham or the dozen plus stone sculptures in and around Kanchipuram or the epigraphic materials in the various temples. Yes, you cannot cover them up with any amount of Annam - for if you try to do so, Sri Maha Ganapati or Sri Bhagavat Pada Adi Shankara or Sri Sureshwaracharya will bless you for having performed Annabhishekam and we will gladly partake in the devine prasadam.

    Sir, I appeal to you to give up your emotions and accept the facts as they are.

    Your statement that there are only four Vedas, four Mahavakyas, four directions and four Mathams is hollow. I can also say that there are five elements, five indriyas, five bhootas, five pandavas, five kavyas, five utsava murtis (in Shiva temples) and five Mathams. Will that appeal to you?

    And remember there are eight directions or disa and not four. Ashta Dikku Balagargal. Bali is offered in ashta dhikku in temples.

    Let us not talk like Karunanithi who listed umpteen "three letter words" when "Anna"durai died. It makes no sense, but is only amusing to hear. That is the only purpose it will serve.

    You have stated

    Coming Back To Our Point On Atma Pindam - Garuda Puram Which Is Thee Authoritative Text On Life After Death And All Sharda Related Queries Does Not Mention Anything About Atma Pindam
    Nor Any Purana Or Upanishads Or Dharma Sastram Does Not Mention Abt Atma Pindam
    If only you would have said this at the first post itself and not made the other comments, it would have been better.

    Probably that is why it is often said "Less said the better"

    I now think that "More said the bitter"
    Last edited by appaiah; 01-04-2008 at 01:55 AM. Reason: Info on ashta dhikku
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  12. #27
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Vedanti

    Namaskarams again.

    I am studying the impact of Islamic invasion in and around Vellore on a personal choice. While so, I have a query to you.

    If Adi Shankara was born in 788 CE as some (not all) of the Shringeri followers claim, then why there is no incident or mention of his tackling the islamists in India? Even Sind had been conquered by Muslims by 8th century. He travelled the entire length and breadth of India. The islamic intrusion/ invasion had begun in 7th Century CE. (that is 630 CE) at least 150 years before his birth as claimed by some (not all) followers of Shringeri. A mosque was in existance in Kodungallur even by as early as 612 CE. The mappillas of Kerala had become Muslims in the seventh century.

    Do you buy the theory that Bhagavat Pada Adi Shankara did nothing to tackle the spread of islam in his own region, more so when he cris-crossed that region more than twice in his life time? Far from that. Bhagavat Pada conquered many segments of religious faiths and brought them under one umbrella with his unique philosophy of Advaita. Islam could not have begun its journey in India, before his life time at all. So is it with regard to Christianity. Bhagavat Pada Adi Shankara never allowed even the local religions like Kaabalikam to survive. Would he have allowed Islam that spread by the sword? The divine power of his words would have certainly not allowed it. This itself is sufficent evidence that he was born much before that.

    There is a set of people who claim that St Thomas came to India and his mortal remains are in San Thome in Mylapore or in St Thomas Mount in Chennai. Christianity had no route in India before 16th Century. If there had been, our Nayanmars would have addressed them as they did to Jainism and Buddhism.

    Indian History has been distorted by European Historians to suit their ill-conceived objectives. I appeal to you with folded hands - Please do not add to the wrong history just because some Kumbakonam followers and Tirunelveli followers of Shringeri order were hurt by the incidents in Kumbakonam and Tirunelveli two centuries ago.
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  14. #28
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Ravi Sastrigal

    Namaskarams. I am happy that a Vaideeka practioner is a member of web-forum.
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  16. #29
    appaiah is offline Member
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    Dear Sri Vedanti

    Namaskarams again.

    You had stated thus in your post dated 30th March 2008 (07.17 p.m) in your effort to object the expression of opinion on the subject by H.H.Shankaracharya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, referred to by me earlier.

    Hence The Acharyal Of Sringeri Would Be The Only Suitable And Eligible Person To Answer This Question In The Right Way As Per Sanatana Dharma To The Earnest Seeker
    You had stated thus in your post dated 31 March 2008 (03.16 p.m.,) after reading my post dated 30th March 2008 (11.07 p.m.,)

    Coming Back To Our Point On Atma Pindam - Garuda Puram Which Is Thee Authoritative Text On Life After Death And All Sharda Related Queries Does Not Mention Anything About Atma Pindam
    Nor Any Purana Or Upanishads Or Dharma Sastram Does Not Mention Abt Atma Pindam
    Interestingly, you have contradicted your own words. Having said that none other than Shringeri Acharya is suitable and eligible person to answer this question, in order to question the Kanchi Acharya, you have chosen to answer the question the very next day. By doing this aren't you disrespecting the authority of Shringeri Acharya, who alone is eligible to answer the question?

    Sir, one must never ever show any disrespect to any Acharya, whether one owes allegiance to Him or not. I do not follow some of the Acharyas. But I cannot show the least of the disrespect to them because I am an ordinary mortal and they are Sanyasis and are Mahans. My little knowledge is nothing before the ocean of knowledge that They possess. One Mahan is revered as Avatar of Bhagawan Sri Krishna by his followers. I may not consider him as Avatar. That does not mean that he is not a Mahan. And that does not make him 'not an Avatar', if he is really one. I must admit that I am not yet blessed to understand Bhagawan's leela. Can I say with authority that I can certify that he is not an Avatar. In fact the question that I place before his followers is "how they are qualified to certify Him as Avatar"? One of them told me that they have realised and I have not. I must admit my incapabilities in realsing the leela of Almighty, I do not possess that much knowledge, I am not that much gifted. This is "shedding ego". Please read your post in line with what I have now stated and arrive at conclusions yourself.

    For your information, I have paid my obeisance to the Amani Shringeri Acharyas and received Their divine blessings. Please leave your ego and visit the Shankaracharya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham and receive Their divine blessings. The Acharyas are above all of us ordinary mortals. They do not carry any ill will towards anyone. They are Karuna murtis. Please do not ever question Them or Their actions. Their birth is a gift to mankind and humanity, let us cherish the gift of Almighty, in this birth itself. Let us give meaning to our own birth at least receiving Their blessings.
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  18. #30
    KRS
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    Dear Sri Appiah Ji,

    I read with interest what you have written here, replying to Sri Vedanti Ji's assertions. I come from an advaithin tradition and so this conversation (I hope Sri Vedantin Ji continues this) is quite illuminating.

    Both the Sringeri and the Kanchi Acharyals have visited our household in Trichy when I was young (I think this was common among our community then, where we accepted both Sri Mathams as the places that we venerated and we definitely looked up at both of them as our family Gurus). I distinctly had the impression then somehow that the Sringeri Matham was rich and the Kanchi Matham was poor, just judging from the garbs that the Acharyals wore.

    I am saying all this to state a point. And I am making this point only as an outside observer - because I do not know the intricacies of Purva Mimamsa, nor do I want to learn the specifics in detail.

    Irrespective of History, we come from a land where it was not properly recorded, and in my opinion, we are perhaps trying to prove something from the past that probably is not provable.

    But what is provable is what is happening today. Millions think that Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam is one of the five original seats. By denying this from history, what will it prove? Will that somehow diminish the divinity of Maha Periaval or His lineage? Will it increase the 'power' of the Sri Sringeri Matham? What is lost in all these needless arguments are the millions of devotees who follow either or both traditions who are supposed to benefit from the teachings of one of the greatest avatars ever.

    I am sure our TB brethren who have the similar schism in terms of Vadagalai and Thengalai in their traditions face the similar issue (I am sorry if I am mis-stating this).

    So are other religions.

    In my humble opinion, what matters most is to follow the teachings of our Gurus that speak to the Truth that we perceive within our senses and honor the Truths of others who may follow others, based on their inclinations. Of course this statement has it's usual caveats, but I am talking about the Gurus and Saints who have a large following in the world.

    Pranams,
    KRS
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