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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgomat View Post
    my wife is a iyer. I am saiva pillai. side note - why do brahmins honor brahmin-non-brahmin divide. isn't it foolish losing game. see, there is no vaisya-non-vaisya divide. it is a game of dravidian parties to corner brahmins and seems like brahmins are enjoying being discriminated against everyone. so i wud suggest getting away from this NB terminology for the favour of Bs (i see this only only in TN nowhere else). Thats why i am not saying myself as NB. okay, back to the main point. our life is not that thrilling as depicted in movies or magazines, we are happy couples and we love each other. she is my highschool sweet heart and before marriage we were in love for 14 years. my parents did not agree, her side agreed but i had to wait 6 six years for my parents somewhat-approval and my wife also waited for me patiently. those 6 years were horrible, my mom did not attend my marriage as well. I was picturing myself in very bad position, the stress- u cannot imagine. but i had to stand by dharma, for the commitment - i stood. now after marriage, everything is solved, we live happily in usa with god's grace. my parents talk to my wife and vice versa. my inlaws visit here, my parents visit and i see no difference from inter caste marriage. we are married for 4 years now. So, it might look daunting in the starting but if you have the balls and patience, everything will be fine. end of the day, the love of couples will be tested, if it is strong and true, it will last long. no matter if it is inter caste or same caste marriage.
    Shri pgomat sir,

    I appreciate your post and wish you, and your family all the best in a very happy and long married life.

    You say, in your maiden post, that, "why do brahmins honor brahmin-non-brahmin divide. isn't it foolish losing game. see, there is no vaisya-non-vaisya divide. it is a game of dravidian parties to corner brahmins and seems like brahmins are enjoying being discriminated against everyone. so i wud suggest getting away from this NB terminology for the favour of Bs (i see this only only in TN nowhere else)"

    But, it is observed that whereas your wife's parents (side) agreed but your parents did not agree for 6 long years and even then, your mother did not attend your wedding. Does this not reveal that the caste-divide was more powerful in the minds of your parents, who are NBs as compared to your wife's side who are Bs? I feel that this NB - B feeling is most among the NBs of TN, may be because of the anti-brahmin sentiment which came about due to the Dravida Parties.

    In Kerala (where I live) also the B-NB consciousness is there but barring a portion of the upper crust Nairs and Ezhavas, others will not oppose inter-caste marriage as absolutely as in TN, I feel. Bs of TN have their reaction because the caste-divide is stronger there, imo.
    श्रेयो भूयात् सकलजनानाम् ।
  2. #12
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    tbs
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    hi

    end of the day, the love of couples will be tested, if it is strong and true, it will last long. no matter if it is inter caste or same caste marriage.

    very nice words...i really appreciated.....even im from USA...here there many stories like this.....i have seen more than hundreds

    of like marriages in USA like this....may be more ....marriages are really time tested...in any case....
    Last edited by tbs; 22-11-2012 at 01:29 AM.
    asato maa sadh gamayaa, tamaso maa jyotir
    gamayaa, mrityor maa amritham gamayaaa..
    om shanti, om shanti, om shanti...upanishad
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  4. #13
    manoharkumar is offline Senior Member
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    i have seen more than hundreds

    of like marriages in USA like this....may be more
    Dear TBS Sir, just last night i was watching one programme in Fox Crime channel- Women Police of maricopa county- where in one deputy Sheriff is called over her wire on to deal with a domestic voilence. The lady sheriff immidiately drives over to find that a 18 yr old girl and adt 50 year ol lady are involved in puching each other. The investigation reveals that the Girl wants to marry the boy. The Mother objects and bars her son from meeting this girl. The girls says she pushed me off the house and held me by my hair and i had to punch her to free myself. The mother & the Girl are arrested for domestic voilence as both hit each other.

    So mothers will be mothers only loyal to their clan or caste either it be Maricopa in US or Kottampatti in India!!!

    Cheers
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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by manoharkumar View Post
    ..... Dear TBS Sir, just last night i was watching one programme in Fox Crime channel- Women Police of maricopa county- where in one deputy Sheriff is called over her wire on to deal with a domestic voilence. The lady sheriff immidiately drives over to find that a 18 yr old girl and adt 50 year ol lady are involved in puching each other. The investigation reveals that the Girl wants to marry the boy. The Mother objects and bars her son from meeting this girl. The girls says she pushed me off the house and held me by my hair and i had to punch her to free myself. The mother & the Girl are arrested for domestic voilence as both hit each other.

    So mothers will be mothers only loyal to their clan or caste either it be Maricopa in US or Kottampatti in India!!!

    Cheers
    Some woman have Reverse Oedipus Complex and can never let go their sons.

    If I were that girl..I would have not fought back with the guy's mother cos most probably the guy's mother must be lonely and is afraid that the girl will take her son away.

    Either the old lady is a divorcee/widow or unhappily married to be so possessive of her son.

    So this girl should arrange and set up some guy to romance the old lady...old lady will fall in love and feel still attractive at 50 years of age and won't be a stumbling block in the son's marriage.

    Believe me people fall for this..once when I was a teen I used to find some old teacher real irritating in class.
    So I told some male student to give her a call and act like some guy really interested in her.
    The teacher at first was angry with those calls but later she found it amusing and used to laugh on the phone to that guy.

    Then her moods in class also improved.
    So you see just a little attention can make people change!

    Poor teacher must have wondered who called her! Ha Ha Ha
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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by manoharkumar View Post
    ..... Dear TBS Sir, just last night i was watching one programme in Fox Crime channel- Women Police of maricopa county- where in one deputy Sheriff is called over her wire on to deal with a domestic voilence. The lady sheriff immidiately drives over to find that a 18 yr old girl and adt 50 year ol lady are involved in puching each other. The investigation reveals that the Girl wants to marry the boy. The Mother objects and bars her son from meeting this girl. The girls says she pushed me off the house and held me by my hair and i had to punch her to free myself. The mother & the Girl are arrested for domestic voilence as both hit each other.

    So mothers will be mothers only loyal to their clan or caste either it be Maricopa in US or Kottampatti in India!!!

    Cheers
    It seems that there are uneducated people that behave poorly all over the world.
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  10. #16
    kunjuppu is offline Veteran
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    Hi pgomat,

    You have hit upon a very potent point, ie the division of tamil hindu society into Brahmins and Non Brahmins (B & NB). I think it would be true to say, that this artificial separation, was initiated by tambrams, maybe a hundred or so years ago (after all NB is an English word. No?). I think it was also a time, when mistakenly, our community was termed as ‘aryans’ and the NB as dravidians. In no other part of India, I think, is there such an dichotomy, and such an isolation of Brahmins from their fellow same-language speaking hindus.

    That this attitude and mindset has succeeded beyond any doubt, we can all agree. To such an extent, that for the past 40 years, since the advent of the Dravidian revolution, it has been a detriment to our community participating in full, in the socio-political atmosphere of tamil nadu. Even prior to that the portents were there, but I think, remained suppressed.

    Moving on to modern times, it is my gut feeling, that the tambram community by and far has moved on beyond rigid caste attitudes, whenever they are forced to make choices. I repeat, ‘whenever they are forced to make choices’. Let me explain what I mean – if their son or daughter wishes to marry out of caste, chances are (just like your own case), apart from a small amount of hand wringing, permission and even willingness to hold the marriage will be forthcoming.

    There is no breast beating or drawing of the knives or the swinging of the noose for our community. We love and value our life more than the activities of our progeny, and nothing our kids can do, would force us to suicide a la what happened in dharmapuri a couple of weeks ago. If the vijay tv neeya naana is any indicator of current tamil norms, there are more intercaste Brahmins (girls) than any other community.

    That is mainly, I think, because most of us, middle class, have/know someone within our community marrying outside our caste. Our tambram girls were perhaps the third community in india (parsi girls, kerala girls being #1, #2) in india, and the first female group in tamil nadu to be given educational opportunities. Along with education, also came increased common sense, sense of fairness, and above all earning power – all tools of enfranchisement and assertion.

    Nowadays, it is difficult for a parent to challenge a daughter earning twice or thrice his income, while she is still in her mid twenties, and convince her – the glory of horoscope matching, the concept of daddy spending his entire savings for his daughter’s wedding, and (heaven forbid) the expectations from the in laws that the newly wed daughter-in-law to hand over her entire paycheck to the newly related in-laws. Our girls, appear to be willing to marry outside the caste, with much less hesitation or inhibition than our boys. Which is good, under any circumstances.

    I suspect, that there are a lot of tambram bachelors, not by choice, in their thirties and forties, who facing a bleak future re marriage prospects, would probably echo the views of kaduvetti guru or maruthuvar ramadas, about the treatment giving to girls within the community, who wish to marry out of caste. But apart from disgusted whispers at certain internet forums, or articles in the ‘brahmin today’ magazine, the tambram community has accepted the concept of intercaste marriage, with, if not eagerness, but as something inevitable. These are changing times. And fast changes too.

    Many of these boys or their parents, appear paralyzed and helpless into finding solutions. I have always stated, that nothing should stop our boys, from marrying girls from other tamil groups, and for what it is worth, inculcate them into our traditions. So far, in this forum, I have seen only posting of a lady, who gave up finding a tambram bride, and arranged marriage of her son to a pillai girl! If there are more doing it, it would be great, if they publish it here or in the media. For when we see others breaking the ‘taboo’, it would encourage more such marriages. The blessings will be two fold – relieving the bachelors of their frustrations, and perhaps halt the slide of declining tambram numbers, especially in tamil nadu.

    Back to the Brahmin – Non Brahmin divide, which appear to be of Himalayan heights, at times.

    My own personal regret with the concept of B/NB is the feeling of isolation that I feel, and not being able to feel part of the bigger tamil tribe. Brahmins have been part of the tamil society since sangam age, and nowhere in the past, but in the past 100 years, has this community been in such a hot water, regarding how they are viewed by their fellow tamil brother/sisters. I think, Brahmin arrogance of the previous few generations, has gone a long way to cause harm to this present day remnants of us, who are still in tamil nadu. What is the use of having great contributors for milleniums, when the current status is close to zero or less?

    Most of us tambram left tamil nadu, not out of persecution or dislike, but just that the grass is greener outside. This migration started in the 1920s from thanjavur and palghat, and has decimated wholesale, what were thriving Brahmin communities and culture. No regrets, but this is a historical fact.

    Even now the tamil migration to delhi and Mumbai continues – except most of it is NB. All the B’s have moved on the USA, UK, Australia, MidEast or Singapore. Migration has been part of our soul, fueled by education and ambition, but to migrate outside the homeland with a bad taste and bad feeling? That hurts – especially for folks like me, who are closer to periyar in their thinking than the orthodox பூணல் wearing உச்சிக்குடுமி பார்ப்பான்.

    I am hoping with the demise of MK, the immediate and incessant abuse spit on the community ebbs somewhat. It will never end, as is evidenced, by the numerous B hate spewings in the web, by youngsters, who have no clue as to the injustices of the past and the abhorrent practices. Good riddance of these. But to wish good riddance of the Brahmins from tamil nadu, would be akin to throwing the baby with the bath water.

    Finally. P.A.Krishnan whi is an iyengar himself, is a tamil thinkder and writer whom I admire a lot. In one of his essays, he summed up periyar’s influence in tamil Brahmin household. Even 30 years ago, an average Brahmin household used to term the servant சூத்ரச்சி…but not now. today’s she is muniamma or parvathi…we have learnt address our servants by names, and the dignity that goes along with it. Without periyar, we would still have சூத்ரச்சி and சூத்திரன்.

    Thank You.
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  12. #17
    கால பைரவன் is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kunjuppu
    I am hoping with the demise of MK, the immediate and incessant abuse spit on the community ebbs somewhat. It will never end, as is evidenced, by the numerous B hate spewings in the web, by youngsters, who have no clue as to the injustices of the past and the abhorrent practices.
    I am not sure whether the last sentence of this para came as intended as I could not make make much sense of it. Why would these youngsters indulge in B Hate spewing if they have no clue as to the injustices and abhorrent practices of the past?

    I also notice, these days, many people, who are ardent admirers of periyar or Anna, are quick to atleast criticize, if not denounce, MK or Ramadoss. Mostly, I think, it is because the DMK party did not do anything substantial for the cause of Eelam and, perhaps, also because of all the corruption. People, naturally, want to distance themseleves for these reasons. But, in the issue of fashioning hatemongering against brahmins, MK is a quintessential follower of EVR. Therefore, it is disingenuous to praise EVR but criticize MK on this issue. While, it can be understood that this is done to create a mirage of being impartial, I wonder whether the author would have felt the need for such platitudes had this not been a tamil brahmin forum!

    Quote Originally Posted by kunjuppu
    Even now the tamil migration to delhi and Mumbai continues – except most of it is NB. All the B’s have moved on the USA, UK, Australia, MidEast or Singapore. Migration has been part of our soul, fueled by education and ambition, but to migrate outside the homeland with a bad taste and bad feeling? That hurts – especially for folks like me, who are closer to periyar in their thinking than the orthodox பூணல் wearing உச்சிக்குடுமி பார்ப்பான்.
    Yes. Many might have migrated for economic or other reasons, but it is also an historical fact that many brahmins left TN (and few continue to leave) because of political goondaism/ rowdyism of the dravidian parties. It is inevitable that they have bitter feelings about leaving their homeland. They were forced to leave the homeland. I think they should atleast be allowed to feel bitter about it! Why should such feelings of orthodox பூணல் wearing உச்சிக்குடுமி பார்ப்பான் hurt those who believe the hatemongering that they were subjected to is deserved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kunjuppu
    My own personal regret with the concept of B/NB is the feeling of isolation that I feel, and not being able to feel part of the bigger tamil tribe.
    But it has been repeatedly drilled down into our minds that the dravidianists are only agianst brahminism - not brahmins, with which I am sure kunjuppu agrees. Why is it then difficult for a person like yourself, who has shed his caste identity and the associated "mindset" and, hence, no longer a brahminist, to feel part of the bigger tamil tribe? Why is this not possible for you? This is a personal question, which I ask, as a response because you expressed your personal regret!
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  14. #18
    kunjuppu is offline Veteran
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    Dear Bairavan

    Good comments. I say that, because your comments helped me think through further to what I had written earlier. I do not claim any of what I write to be right or true. These are my views, formed over a period of time, and to be true, constantly changing. Many of what I say today, would have been different a year ago and hopefully different next year. After all, I hope to evolve, and with each additional morsel of knowledge or information, become a more informed human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by கால பைரவன் View Post
    I am not sure whether the last sentence of this para came as intended as I could not make make much sense of it. Why would these youngsters indulge in B Hate spewing if they have no clue as to the injustices and abhorrent practices of the past?

    I also notice, these days, many people, who are ardent admirers of periyar or Anna, are quick to atleast criticize, if not denounce, MK or Ramadoss. Mostly, I think, it is because the DMK party did not do anything substantial for the cause of Eelam and, perhaps, also because of all the corruption. People, naturally, want to distance themseleves for these reasons. But, in the issue of fashioning hatemongering against brahmins, MK is a quintessential follower of EVR. Therefore, it is disingenuous to praise EVR but criticize MK on this issue. While, it can be understood that this is done to create a mirage of being impartial, I wonder whether the author would have felt the need for such platitudes had this not been a tamil brahmin forum! !
    Re the youngsters indulging in B hating – I do not have much reasons. It is easy to write a few lines of hatred, over ancient insults and also find excuse for current discomfort. Again folks like Veeramani and DK are on the lookout for the most minor acts by B that might of use to them. Take the recent SriRangam Brahmanal Hotel. I, for one, could care less about a hotel named after Brahmanal, except I know that I will not patronize someone with such attitude. Most of the tamil blogs denounced this, but with innuendos about the paarppaan raising his snaky head again. There were very few blogs, which also commented that similar Chettiar, Thalapakaatu, Devar hotels should be renamed – after all these too were advertising with caste names.

    Re periyar and anna followers denouncing MK, it is a fight within Dravidian groups. They will all not hesitate to gang up within the wink of an eye, against the TB.

    Periyar’s world was different. During the early 1900s, till late 60s, TB dominated the political and social life of Tamil Nadu. No where else in India was there such a hegemony. By default almost all tamil speaking central government servants were Brahmins – whether they were from Tamil Nadu or Palghat. Congress committees of the 1920s had barely NB representation. When Periyar asked for quotas, so that the other communities too could be enfolded within the Congress, it was stoutly prevented by the B. For the Brahmins, it was all or nothing, based on ‘merit’. So when the Dravidian parties came into power in 1967, it became ‘nothing’ for us. Though I have to say, the ball was set rolling during Kamaraj regime of the Congress, and followed by Bhaktavatsalam, along the same lines.

    I do participate, and do mention, these dichotomies in whatever forum, or replies to blogs, that I do. Once again, I do it mildly, and in an non offensive way. It is not my intention to be abrasive or to seek a quarrel. But the pen my views, which are constantly forming, and given the benefit of a platform, and some interest in writing, to pen them.

    Periyar, much as we don’t like him, I think, is the leader who impacted the community most. We were fascinated by him to extremes. There is an interesting piece in P.A.Krishnan’s Tiger Claw Tree, where the iyengar mamis of Nanguneri agraharam, do their household work early one day, all to listen to Periyar, who was speaking that evening, in the street at the end of the agraharam, so that they could view and hear the whole session, sitting on their thiNNais. I am quite sure Krishnan mentioned this because such instances were true. Many in this forum had attended Periyar’s speeches.

    More interestingly, just yesterday, I was reading a young periarist rue, that of all the groups, the ones who followed periyar’s principles of reformation, the most, were Brahmins. Even 40 years ago, almost every agraharam household had a disfigured widow – head shorn and yellow/white cotton sari, condemned to do the worst of tasks and considered a moodhevi. Today, we find Brahmin widows, including my own relations, all dolled up, working outside and other socio/cultural activities, all with the support of the community. Our girls, by default, are treated as good as, or better than our boys. ..and we have to remember, a good section of the Brahmin community opposed Nehru’s Hindu Act of Succession reforms. Mentally we are so far and beyond, the normal social framework of the tamil society, that today, many of what periyar said, re women emancipation, contraception, small families, no dowry – all these are part and parcel of our accepted routines.

    It is only when it comes to God, that we are at loggerheads with periyar's uncompromising and vehement atheism. Which the NBs, incidentally did not consider important. People say, that thanks to the new socially advanced NBs, these are in effect behaving the neo-Brahmins, and are effectively replacing the erstwhile ones, in many a socioreligious environment. The NBs have achieved their goals of power and opportunities in education/welfare in Tamilnadu, and whatever quarrel they may have, it is only dividing the benefits. And not in including the Brahmins, any more or any further. Even the poorer ones among us, who may have a good case to deserve state help.


    Quote Originally Posted by கால பைரவன் View Post
    Yes. Many might have migrated for economic or other reasons, but it is also an historical fact that many brahmins left TN (and few continue to leave) because of political goondaism/ rowdyism of the dravidian parties. It is inevitable that they have bitter feelings about leaving their homeland. They were forced to leave the homeland. I think they should atleast be allowed to feel bitter about it! Why should such feelings of orthodox பூணல் wearing உச்சிக்குடுமி பார்ப்பான் hurt those who believe the hatemongering that they were subjected to is deserved! !
    I think you suspect me, of ‘believe the hatemongering that they were subjected to is deserved!’. I do not honestly know if the judgement is as harsh. Maybe once upon a time, but not now. again, the reason for feeling, call it, the blood. The common blood, that me, a pattar, shares with his brethren from Thanjavur or Tirunelveli. Blood gives a dimension to the emotions. Beyond that, I do not know.


    Quote Originally Posted by கால பைரவன் View Post
    But it has been repeatedly drilled down into our minds that the dravidianists are only agianst brahminism - not brahmins, with which I am sure kunjuppu agrees. Why is it then difficult for a person like yourself, who has shed his caste identity and the associated "mindset" and, hence, no longer a brahminist, to feel part of the bigger tamil tribe? Why is this not possible for you? This is a personal question, which I ask, as a response because you expressed your personal regret!
    I think the above para answers the query, to the best of my ability. Hopefully, the whole presentation, gives a viewpoint.

    To sum up, you are right, that I have no use for caste, and I am glad with the demise of Manusmriti, and the launch of Ambedkarsmriti. Because I feel, in the long term interest of Hinduism, and our heritage, caste, as it was practiced in the 19th/20th century is not sustainable, let alone be morally wrong and corruptive. We will as Brahmins continue to practice rituals, I think, but I do not yet fathom, as to how the increasingly and inevitable mingling of castes, will result in key rituals to us, particularly those involving death and its related obsequies. after all, does not death define life?

    This has been long and tiring. Hope it gives you some sense of completeness.

    Thank You.
    Last edited by kunjuppu; 27-11-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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  16. #19
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    My 2 cents... couldn't resist....

    Namaskaram Sri Vgane,
    Your posts and opinions are always thought provoking. I cannot help but add my thoughts to the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by vgane View Post
    You reap what you sow...Among all communities that are most impacted by the Inter caste (I.C)marriage are the Brahmins who are already in a miniscule minority...Hope better sense prevail among the proponents of IC...It is leading TN nowhere...Let the individuals marry in their communities & be happy..May be not so easy
    Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that you believe that avoiding Intercaste marriage is a good way to protect the Brahmin community. I can understand how one might have that thought. I believe that it is a completely inneffective and reactionary response to a greater underlying issue. This was attempted in the region I hail from as well. Historically we had brought many different peoples to that land to work as slaves in massive white-owned agricultural operations. Over time and as the result of a civil war the practice of slavery was abolished and all "owned" peoples emmancipated. This led to a large racially diverse population in the Southern states. Groups then rose to "protect the Southern culture" and to keep it pure from mixed blood. Many lives were destroyed in the process. This of course failed to achieve its slated goal and only succeeded in further usurping the cultural integrity of our people. Young men of independent mind did what they had always done and married whomever they wanted but now could decide to stay and fight it out OR go North which had always been the only solution. Most went North even though the laws had changed this took a GREAT toll on our culture as its men were leaving soon after coming of age. This left white women to hold the torch. However, as women became more and more educated and gained rights they too began to marry outside of racial lines. many driven to explore those avenues simply due to natural rebelion and curriosity about that which had been wrongly demonized in the first place. My point is that limiting freedom and propagating condemnation in order to protect a group rarely if EVER works.
    If somebody thinks that we can remove caste in all the Hindu communities they are in a fools paradise...And 90% of these marriages end in a failure...The love & bonhomie is over very quickly... It is only in the dream world of cinema all of this hunky dory
    This seems to often be how this issue is presented. Removing caste would be a detriment to the culture and on that I think we both agree. But why is this the response? Removing caste serves nothing at all. It is an outlandish suggestion and one that threatens to deny all castes their unique history and heritage. I often feel it is presented as the only solution simply because it is KNOWN it wouldn't work. Might I offer another approach for your consideration... What if instead of attempting to REMOVE caste we simply make up our mind to ACTIVELY PRACTICE UNDERSTANDING each caste's unique diversity and purpose. Only in doing that can protection of the culture be assured. This approach ensures that not only will Brahmins see the beautiful sanctity of their culture but ALL others will see that value too. Extending from this a desire to protect it will spread far beyond its "miniscule" (your word not mine) population size. It also solves the issue of ones children "running off" to experience in secrecy that which cannot be discussed in the home. One cannot drive away the birds from their tree and then lament they are no longer able to hear them sing because they never returned. The decision was made before the birds ever left and it was not the birds that made the decision to initially leave, the only decision they made was to stay away. Once fear of loss and prejudice are removed from the scenario a far greater security is possible.

    Inter-caste marriage sparks riot in Tamil Nadu district, 148 dalit houses torchedK.A.Shaji, V Senthil Kumran, Karthick S, TNN, Nov 9, 2012

    DHARMAPURI: Outraged by the suicide of a man who felt humiliated after his daughter married a dalit boy in secret, a mob of non-dalits went on the rampage in three villages of Dharmapuri district, looting and burning houses of dalits late on Wednesday, police said.

    The 2,500-strong mob set ablaze 148 houses in Natham, Anna Nagar and Kondampatti villages. They claimed that the "humiliation" caused by the marriage and the refusal of the dalits to send the woman back home had resulted in the suicide of G Nagarajan (48). The mob looted valuables before setting the houses on fire.
    You used a biblical reference in your post so I will offer another and back it up with Puranic example.
    "Before destruction is pride, and before stumbling - a haughty spirit."
    Reference Daksha's Yagna to understand what the fires of hatred and loathing bring.
    Police said Nagarajan's daughter Divya, 20, eloped with dalit youth Ilavarasan, 23, about a month ago, and they got married in a temple. ...the couple approached the Salem police, seeking protection.
    ...
    But Divya refused to obey them and made it clear that she would continue to live with Ilavarasan....
    It seems it is better for a bird to live in a briar bush full of love than it is to exist in a "sacred" peepal who's limbs are cold and lonely.
    Fire tenders were not able to reach the villages in time because huge trees had been cut down on the roads to block them.
    These "non-dalits" wanted sure death to come to those they attacked as can be seen from above. Some might argue that such hateful groups NEED to be eradicated. Does this not threaten the very culture they are claiming to want to "protect" even more so?!? I counter that EDUCATION is the answer, certainly not eradication. If people behave as beasts we cannot simply assume that that is what they are. Compassion is sourced in understanding. All men and women are able to learn this.

    I'll close with a quote by Friedrich Nietzche: "Whoever fights monsers should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into the abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

    A worthy case study for further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_..._United_States
    Understand that this is one of the darkest and saddest (and ongoing to some degree) aspects of the history of the United States and one that if not directly addressed would have COMPLETELY stifled our industrial and cultural development as well as crushed the entire world's opportunity to take advantage of the resources, economy, and freedoms that are available to all here.

    Sincerely,
    Roman
    Last edited by BostonSankara; 27-11-2012 at 12:46 AM.
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    prasad1 is online now Veteran
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    Mr. Boston Shankar,
    Are you trying to wake me up from my Utopian dream?
    I would rather live in my dream world than to wake up in the reality.

    The real world is in the 21st Century, the younger generations in their twenties and thirties do not live like people in their sixties and seventies.

    But for the older folks the world is slipping away, and they are clutching at straws.
    Last edited by prasad1; 27-11-2012 at 12:52 AM.
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    If you are having a problem with a particular thread or user, please use the "REPORT POST" button beside the offending post to inform us or raise a complaint.
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