Thread: temple priests

Are the vedas out of date? We claim that the Vedas are beginningless and eternal. Are they or are they not? Are castes really occupation based or vice versa? There are a plethora of castes today in India and how do we reconcile with the four varnas given in the Vedas?

Caste is a touchy-topic. According to the opponents the caste system is inhuman because it advocates untouchability and inequality. Some people consider Brahmins as villains in this respect. They therefore clamor for the abolition of caste system depicting it as an invention of the Brahmins.
We may continue to gloss over this question but who would answer when your children ask the question? Think about it. There is so much social pressure on them for being different. They cannot take it unless they understand it. Are you going to help them or abandon them like the lady who visited me the other day. She said, "I have told my daughter, I don't care who you marry as long as you don't bring another girl." That is the lowest common denominator to which a person could sink.
Let us see some facts:

·People forget the fact that the Brahmins are only 2% or so of the population. Yet they have been victims of oppression in the hands of every foreigner who invaded the country right from the warlord Kanishka of the Chinese Kushana tribes who invaded the country before Jesus Christ was born, to the Muslim and Christian invaders. But alas at another period when Harshavardhana converted into Buddhism, he slaughtered 10,000 Brahmins.

In their quest for destroying the so called infidels as they called the Hindus, the Muslim invaders

· slaughtered the Brahmins and the Kshathriyas in many thousands,

· raped the women and pillaged the country that made the holocaust a dwarf by comparison.

The Christians who followed imposed their own tyranny.

·The Portuguese killed and maimed the thousands of Brahmins in Goa. According to them destroying the Brahmins would be the destroying of Hinduism.

Today's secularists did not lag behind either.

·They have wiped out these facts from the history books in the name of preventing alienation within the society.

·They have imposed economic and political embargo on the Brahmins in the name of building a secular society. We all know how difficult it is for the Brahmins to get admission in the colleges or getting jobs in the government especially in South India.

The Brahmins who form about 2% of the Hindus have been silently bearing the brunt of the attacks of those who want to destroy this ancient religion from both within and without.

During the days of the British Rule, the Brahmins were in the forefront in the struggle for freedom.

·They were of militant type and seldom pacifists The Chitpavan Brahmins were banned under the Sedition Act and were persecuted. The proportion of Brahmins who participated in the freedom struggle far exceeded their 2% of the total population. In Tamilnadu alone Brahmins were great leaders such as va. U. si Iyer, Bharathi, Kanchi vardadhachariar, Sathyamoorthy Rajaji and others. Bharathi's nationalist songs are eternal poetry that raises horripilation even now.

The British colonialists responded to the success of the freedom struggle as a whole

·by inciting the Muslims against Hindus to demand division of the country., and

·by inciting the non-Brahmins against Brahmins that resulted in many anti-Brahmin parties such as Justice Party in the South and many caste-based parties in the North.

But once Independence was gained the beneficiaries were the Muslims who gained a big country to keep India always embroiled in confrontation and war both within and without. And the Brahmins were the definite losers.

·Those who sacrificed for the country became victims of oppression. For example Kamaraj who got his political education from a the Brahmin Sathyamoorty, was the first to band with avowed anti-Brahmin Periyar and dethroned Rajaji from the chief ministership. His partisanship in land reform at 60-40 was aimed at the Brahmins of Thanjavur. The Brahmins set off an exodus to the cities deprived of their land by the peasants who occupied them. The Brahmins who are being called the villains are actually victims and they have borne the brunt silently in a spirit of karmic dignity.

Then the only people, therefore, to whom anyone should direct the question if caste system is outmoded and should be abandoned would be those who are other than the Brahmins. When you do so, they will laugh at you. Because they are busily inventing and organizing newer and newer castes and all of them want to be declared as scheduled castes and backward castes because the secularists Nehru and his successors have brought about the so called reservations in the matter of education and jobs. No government can ever abolish these reservation lists unless they have a death wish.

·No body wants to be a Brahmin because there is no money in it and also because it imposes true moral conduct in being a Brahmin. But they would like to marry Brahmin women. That should hasten the doom of Brahmins. That still leaves us to answer the question if castes are valid today.

·You have to make your opinion after knowing its basis. But I still have to caution that it is quite dangerous to make a selective acceptance of our Vedas that is almost total rejection of the karma kaanda portion of our Vedas. This will only lead to self-destruction.

Such an attempt to reject our Vedas is nothing new. It has happened before.

·Jains and Buddhists have relegated the sacrificial religion to the background until Adi Sankara came to the scene and rescued the Vedic Religion. And mind you, Sankara is no karma vaadhin but the foremost exponent of the path of nivrthi.

·And during the last thousand years almost, the Muslims and christians who invaded India systematically and tyrannically attempted to distroy the Vedic religion. Apart from persecuting the Brahmins, they have succeeded in destroying the Kshathriyas, every one of whom lived to protect the Brahmins and the Hindu temples and the Vedic way of life.

·Today without these Kshathriyas we see large scale attempt from the so called secularists to destroy this ancient religion from within. There are number of things that are happening in India in the name of caste such as pitched battles between different castes in many parts of India. Bihar is a burning ground now. There were other states before. Being pacifists, none of us will ever approve of all that is happening. One thing is very clear that Brahmins as a community are not involved in these killings in the countryside.

Hi guys!
I have been away at Salt Lake City, Utah, visiting my niece. A beautiful but sort of desolate city surrounded by mountains. The Mormon sect of Christian faith have a big presence. I went to their temples there and had a guided tour of all the nice places. According to them, God and his son appeared before this gentleman, Joseph Smith (they call him the prophet) and told him that all the existing religions (including Catholics, other Protestant denominations!!) were false and they gave him some book which is known as "the book of mormons". They asked me what my mother language was and when I told them Tamil, they immediately gave me a copy of the book and tried to persuade me to convert!! Nice people though!

Would somebody translate the posting published in Tamil by a gentleman named Thivya? I couldn't decipher the font used and though I am Tamil, my comprehension of Tamil isn't that good (I am ashamed to say this!!), having been brought up in the US for 40 years!
Does he say that we Brahmins are not Tamils? If so, I say that we are Tamils AND Brahmins; they are not mutually exclusive.

Hi anbu

Nice recap of persecution of brahmins. Your asked whether caste is valid now? But I guess was caste valid anytime?.

Caste is a invented segregation of people based on profession. The question of caste arised due to human greed and convenience. Humans try to distinguish themselves from the rest no matter what!. Black vs. white, christian vs islam vs hindu .. , upper caste vs lower caste, rich vs. poor, strong vs. weak.

Everyone of these comes from the basic underlying animal behaviour. Discrimation is the nature of Human Beings. Discrimination stems from the concept of 'Survival of the fittest' the variable is fittest here. The 'fittest' actually changes according to the situation.

In a Caste Society 'High-Caste' is the fittest, in men vs. women, men is the fittest (in physical form). The human minds perceives internally that way no matter what and always tries to achieve that, it is in our intrinsic animal nature to do so.

Some 50000 years ago, cannibalism to survive yourself was fittest, but 10000 years ago, you dont cannibalize within your groups (packs), the fittest try to cannibalize those outside the group by discriminating them accordingly and they do as well vice versa. Some 5000 years ago, cannibalism itself was a bad thing because we found a better way to live as a society or as a civilization anything outside that is bad, you found different ways to be the 'fittest'.

Humans always find ways to distinguish themselves from others, always find the fittest ground no matter what. Race, color, wars, ethnic cleansing, competition, rape, murder, desire, greed, and so on. Depending on who is where. You always try to explain yourself as a better person than the other, always try to discriminate for some reason for eg., sex (the topic in question), color, country, caste, academics, height, health, wealth and so on as well. Something that gives you the EDGE!. So the question of who is the fittest is the essence of all that is the most basic of human nature.

Originally Posted by Anbu

That still leaves us to answer the question if castes are valid today.

Let me add my two-cents' worth on this caste discussion. As you know, we Hindus are being ridiculed and laughed at our caste-based religion. However, I think 'caste' is in all religions, except we call it as such and they don't. Take the case of Muslims. What do you think is going on in Iraq? The Sunnies and the Shiates hate each other so much that they are killing each other. I used to know an Iraqi friend (who happened to be a Sunny). Once when I asked him if Sunnies and Shias married among each other, he immediately jumped and vehemently and categorically said a big 'NO'; NEVER!! And then, both the Sunnies and Shias hate the 'Ahmedias' and I understand they are not even allowed inside Mecca.

Let us talk about Christians. The Catholics are scorned by all protestants; among protestents, there are so many divisions and in-fighting and finger-pointing saying 'holier than thou'!!

Anyway, all i am trying to point out is that casteism is everywhere; Hindus are not alone.

Very true mr. silverfox. If you look religion at the top level and caste as the next level under the religion. This is exactly where shia/sunni/catholic/protestant all belong. In a way everything is a caste only, may be not exactly conforming to the definition of caste but nevertheless some division under a religion.

Last I checked there are 1500 christian denominations within protestant in North America alone. They may not discriminate or fight among each other in a bad way or something according to current circumstances and situations. But they do poach on each other once a while.

The only reason they are portrayed better or not messed with is because they have a PR which hinduism and hindus dont.

Originally Posted by silverfox

Let us talk about Christians. The Catholics are scorned by all protestants; among protestents, there are so many divisions and in-fighting and finger-pointing saying 'holier than thou'!!

Anyway, all i am trying to point out is that casteism is everywhere; Hindus are not alone.

Silverfox,

Question for you. Did Mormons let you inside the temple ? I was told that they normally keep that off-limits to all non-mormons. I'd been to Salt lake city couple of times, haven't been to the mormon temple that's why asked the question.

Let me translate Thivya's post for you. "Tamils do not resent brahmins, but it is the other way around. Despite living in this tamil land for cenutries, they stab tamils in the back. Brahmins who originally were brought to be employed in temples, later took ownership of the temples and made tamil off-limits in temples. While continuing to speak tamil, they despise the tamil language. Why do brahmins generally not consider themselves Tamils ? Discussions among yourselves will not bring any result whatsover, Please talk to Tamils. Let go of the castiest thinking, try become tamils."

That's my attempt guys. Others let me know if i'd been okay.

Regards

Dear Rajendran:

Nice to hear from you. No, they wouldn't allow anybody (not even christians of other sects) into the main temple; that is a restricted area. Other than that, we were allowed all over the place. They were very nice; they gave us a guided tour and took pains in explaining about their side. I was impressed with their cavernous conference hall which seats over 27,000 people at a time.

I want to thank you for your efforts in translating Thivya's post.
I am sorry to see Thivya's post accusing the Brahmins of everything that they are not. Whom are the Brahmins stabbing in the back? Does he know what he is talking about when he says "Brahmins despise the Tamil language"? Brahmins have contributed significantly to the Tamil langauge! We recite poems of Alwars and Nayanmars written in chaste Tamil. How can he say that "Brahmins do not consider themselves Tamils"? Look at the name of this website.
I believe Thivya is the epitome of the Dravida Kazhagam, whose only job is to harass, insult and make statements against Brahmins that are vindictive, vitriolic, vicious and vituperative. (I am running out of adjectives starting with 'V'!!). I would like see constructive dialog coming from these people instead of shooting their mouths off. They are nothing but demagogues kindling the passions of people against Brahmins, just for their personal gains.
I say to these people that we are more Tamils than those charlatans who claim to be Tamils. Whether they like it or not, we are every bit Tamils and an integral part of Tamil Nadu.
I dont subscribe to the theory that Brahmins are Aryans and the rest in Tamil Nadu are Dravidians. If there were such an ethnic group called Aryans, they have definitely assimilated with the Dravidians about maybe 3000 years ago. What we have today throughout India is a mixture of these two groups. This is my opinion.

This is for Anbu:

Hi Anbu! I just got around to read your posting (6-24-06). It was a thorough historical perspective on Hinduism, castes, etc. However, I failed to grasp what your conclusions were on castes. Did I miss something?
Thank you.

Dear Silverfox,

My view corresponds to what Mahaperiaval said in 'Deivathin Kural'. For details see: http://www.kamakoti.org/newlayout/te...d+Varna+Dharma

Regards,
Anbu