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    R. Ramanujan is offline Banned Achievements:
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    Punjabi Tamil marriages.

    Guys here is an interesting issue. As you are aware that in our Indian Nation lot of inter marriages are taken place. Some ppl regard it good but some ppl regard it a danger to our culture. But I won't go into that.

    But here is an interesting case. A lot of tamil punjabi marriages are now a days a reality. In punjab sikhs constitute 55% and Hindus some 42%. Among the prominent clan is the khatri clan. They are sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Some Muslim khatris live in pak. Khatri is a punjabi word derived from kshtriya since there is no क्ष in punjabi mozhi. Now they are dominating everywhere in north as well some parts of the south. They are also present in large numbers abroad. In NCR they constitute a whopping 9 percent of the total population which I think is a significant percentage. Bollywood and business is full of them. Our PM is also a khatri.
    And a lot of inter marriages is a reality b/w tamil(both brah's and non brahs) and punjabis(esp the khatris). Although I don't have any statistics to show, its more of my observation which I saw in society.
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    kunjuppu is online now Veteran
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    same here in toronto too.

    i know within my own, atleast about 4 punjabi tamil brahmin marriages..
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Ramanujan View Post
    Guys here is an interesting issue. As you are aware that in our Indian Nation lot of inter marriages are taken place. Some ppl regard it good but some ppl regard it a danger to our culture. But I won't go into that.

    But here is an interesting case. A lot of tamil punjabi marriages are now a days a reality. In punjab sikhs constitute 55% and Hindus some 42%. Among the prominent clan is the khatri clan. They are sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Some Muslim khatris live in pak. Khatri is a punjabi word derived from kshtriya since there is no क्ष in punjabi mozhi. Now they are dominating everywhere in north as well some parts of the south. They are also present in large numbers abroad. In NCR they constitute a whopping 9 percent of the total population which I think is a significant percentage. Bollywood and business is full of them. Our PM is also a khatri.
    And a lot of inter marriages is a reality b/w tamil(both brah's and non brahs) and punjabis(esp the khatris). Although I don't have any statistics to show, its more of my observation which I saw in society.

    Dear Ramanujam,

    Its a long held claim that Khatri is derived from Kshatriya.

    However, the Khatris have always been merchant-like.

    At best, the occupational description that suits them near perfectly wud be merchant-warriors.

    Moreover, the word Khatri is not derived from the word Kshatriya.

    The dharmashastras have clearly defined who is a Kshatriya and who is a Kshattri:

    From a Sudra are born an Ayogava, a Kshattri, and a Kandala, the lowest of men, by Vaisya, Kshatriya, and Brahmana) females, (sons who owe their originto) a confusion of the castes - Manusmrithi 10.12.


    From a Sudra spring in the inverse order (by females of the higher castes) three base-born (sons, apasada), an Ayogava, a Kshattri, and a Kandala, the lowest of men - Manusmrithi 10.16.


    Kshatri is clearly defined as a jaati (jaati is mentioned here as 'gati' and Chandala is spelled Kandala):

    The Suta, the Vaidehaka, the Kandala, that lowest of mortals, the Magadha, he of the Kshattri caste (gati), and the Ayogava, these six (Pratilomas) beget similar races (varna) on women of their own (caste), they (also) produce (the like) with females of their mother's caste (gati), and with females (of) higher ones - - Manusmrithi 10.26-27.

    The occupation of the Kshatri is defined thus:

    To Kshattris, Ugras, and Pukkasas, catching and killing (animals) living in holes; to Dhigvanas, working in leather; to Venas, playing drums. - Manusmrithi 10.49.

    Well, if a group was relegated (or condemned to subsist?) by catching animals living in holes, that wud make them hunters of sorts. Perhaps this is why claims of being traditionally warriors is coming -- it wud not take long for hunters to convert into soilders.

    Reg the caste-combinations, you can read more here: The Laws of Manu X

    Btw, Rajputs and other traditional warrior groups have never considered the Khatri as Kshatriyas.

    I do not know if the Khatris went to court for varna claims.

    Connection b/w Kshatri and Ambastha:

    As an Ambashtha and an Ugra, (begotten) in the direct order on (women) one degree lower (than their husbands) are declared (to be), even so are a Kshattri and a Vaidehaka, though they were born in the inverse order of the castes (from mothers one degree higher than the fathers). - Manusmrithi 10.13.

    A Brahmana begets on the daughter of an Ugra an Avrita, on the daughter of an Ambashtha an Abhira, but on a female of the Ayogava (caste) a Dhigvana. - Manusmrithi 10.15.

    Moreover, the son of by Kshattri by an Ugra female is called a Svapaka; but one begotten by a Vaidehaka on an Ambashtha female is named a Vena. - Manusmrithi 10.19. (please look up what a svapaka means).
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    R. Ramanujan is offline Banned Achievements:
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    To R.R, sir Khadri is a sub cast of Brahmin in Punjab. After Gurunanak started to Preach new message and from that day the major population turned and started a new life. He preached NAAM Bakthi and GURUTradation. After Guru GOVIND himself changed the title as SIKHs(SINGH). Means the LION. Now sikhs never said they are Hindus. They got a different way of life style. Sikhs follows GURU Granth Sahib, and Radha Soami Path and more small groups, but they follows their GURUS teachings only. s.r.k.
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    R. Ramanujan is offline Banned Achievements:
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    Quote Originally Posted by SALEM View Post
    To R.R, sir Khadri is a sub cast of Brahmin in Punjab. After Gurunanak started to Preach new message and from that day the major population turned and started a new life. He preached NAAM Bakthi and GURUTradation. After Guru GOVIND himself changed the title as SIKHs(SINGH). Means the LION. Now sikhs never said they are Hindus. They got a different way of life style. Sikhs follows GURU Granth Sahib, and Radha Soami Path and more small groups, but they follows their GURUS teachings only. s.r.k.
    No salem sir khatris are not brahmins. read it pls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatri Majority of them are hindus but they are not brahmins, some are mona sikhs and some are muslims(in pak). Sikhs are a distinct religion. They don't consider themselves as hindus. Thats why they have demanded a separate Marriage act for themselves. Sikh religion essentially grew out of the evils of caste system or as a revolt to brahminical system but the reality is that a large number of sikhs still practice caste system.
    Last edited by R. Ramanujan; 24-08-2010 at 12:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Ramanujan View Post
    No salem sir khatris are not brahmins. read it pls Khatri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Majority of them are hindus but they are not brahmins, some are mona sikhs and some are muslims(in pak). Sikhs are a distinct religion. They don't consider themselves as hindus. Thats why they have demanded a separate Marriage act for themselves. Sikh religion essentially grew out of the evils of caste system or as a revolt to brahminical system but the reality is that a large number of sikhs still practice caste system.
    Dear Sir,

    The wiki article claims Khatri is a Punjabi adaptation of the Sanskrit Kshatriya and provides a few gazetters as references. Well, what can one say......caste equations have always been changing i suppose...and folks have always evolved their caste identities in new ways...

    On a similar note, i was reading about the court cases of Kayasthas. The Calcutta High Court called them as Shudras. Allahabad High Court called them Brahmins. Patna High Court called them Kshatriyas. It was also taken into account that kayasthas of different places cannot be the same based on occupation.

    From most accounts, kayastha as a caste (in UP, Bengal, Bihar, etc) cystallized only around 9th century. While Ambasta is decribed by Manu as a Vaidya-group from a Brahmin father and Vaishya mother, the Kayastha has not been mentioned in scriptures.

    But Kayasthas have argued in court for varna based on their occupation being mentioned in puranas and so on..however, the court considered occupational status insufficent to lay claims for varna as a caste. A kshatriya had to have the upanayana from the vedic pov, or he was a shudra (though a ruler).

    Actually, when Kayashta had not yet become a caste in 9th century, a brahmana or a shudra cud become a kayastha. So the fact that they were a hybrid caste was also taken into account.

    One section in Bengal had merged into the Ambastha. Based on this, there the Kayasthas went to court. Its sort of crazy to read those varna claims.

    Actually, an informant of the author of Ain-i-Akbari mentioned that Kings of Pala, Sena dynasties belonged to kayastha caste. However, in the medival period, Persian-knowing Sudras are mentioned to have merged into the Kayastha caste.

    Yet when it came to the Bengal court case, brahmanical prejudice against them was said to be the root cause of ranking them as Shudra (seems to me the Kayasthas were actually buddhist-influenced type).

    And like Manu says, those who do not consult brahmins are sunk into Shudra category ... its ridiculous to think that brahmins were actually testifying varnas of folks in court in the late 19th and early 20th centuries based on a text written in 200BC- 200AD !!

    Dunno why the brahmins did like that in colonial India. Even Medhathithi, the commentator of Manu, is said to have mentioned that those who were not kshatriyas (from the vedic-kshatriya pov of not having upanayanam), but acted as rulers, protected people, earned a living by use of weapons, discharged duties expected of a kshatriya, should be considered Kshatriya.

    But in the south, the words of Medhatithi was considered inferior to someone called Vaidyanatha Dikshit, who wrote the Vaidyanatha-Diksitiyam (a text of very recent origin usually used to settle differences across smrithis): Vaidyanatha-Diksitiyam from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org: Dunno on what basis Medhathithi's work was considered inferior to that of Vaidyanatha Dikshit.....

    Plus, the british seems to have had the freedom to decide who should be coronated kings (like the raja of chettinad..)..

    Last edited by happyhindu; 24-08-2010 at 03:31 PM.
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    R. Ramanujan is offline Banned Achievements:
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    happy hindu sir, punjabi khatris are distinct. So don't compare them with any other kshytriyas from rest of India. I do agree that their ancestors were brahmins but transformation took place somewhere. Reasons are mystery. They build the great hindu temple of kabul and katas raj. They always fought wars. They worship sun god. Some are sikhs so they don't do idol worshipping. But they always clinged to vedic traditions thats why they are successful.
    But some may even put punal the sacred thread but its again their personal choice. But I'm talking abt majority. They eat everything except beef and pigs meat. They don't believe in sacred thread plus they also believe in sikh gurus even the hindu ones. They regularly go to gurudwaras. Some worship sai baba. But the khatris condemn the caste system, they won't tell it openly coz majority of Indians are hindus. They wan't to keep them happy. At the same time a lot of them they do believe in caste based marriages. Its hyphocracy and compromise. But money is honey in the 21st century.

    you will find a lot of khatris in chennai do interact with them.
    Last edited by R. Ramanujan; 24-08-2010 at 05:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Ramanujan View Post
    happy hindu sir, punjabi khatris are distinct. So don't compare them with any other kshytriyas from rest of India. I do agree that their ancestors were brahmins but transformation took place somewhere. Reasons are mystery. They build the great hindu temple of kabul and katas raj. They always fought wars. They worship sun god. Some are sikhs so they don't do idol worshipping. But they always clinged to vedic traditions thats why they are successful.
    But some may even put punal the sacred thread but its again their personal choice. But I'm talking abt majority. They eat everything except beef and pigs meat. They don't believe in sacred thread plus they also believe in sikh gurus even the hindu ones. They regularly go to gurudwaras. Some worship sai baba. But the khatris condemn the caste system, they won't tell it openly coz majority of Indians are hindus. They wan't to keep them happy. At the same time a lot of them they do believe in caste based marriages. Its hyphocracy and compromise. But money is honey in the 21st century.

    you will find a lot of khatris in chennai do interact with them.
    Dear Sir,

    There are a lot of claims (yes i have interacted with khatris, and even as such its hard to imagine folks like kareena kapoor in certain ways )

    But we are talking about "names" of communities and how things were about 2000 years ago. And everyone were tribes then...

    Names are like fossils. The members of the communities keep changing but the names remains (please do not imagine an immobile stagnant world).

    Moreover, you are speaking of the north-west region that had been the path for all sorts of folks coming in since God knows when..

    They do claim to be distinct and of brahmin descent like the Mohyals. But there is no proof (if you have historical proof please let me know). Everyone builds temples.

    PS:

    i came across the book "The Khatris, a Socio-Cultural study" on google books by someone called Baij Nath Puri. It mentions that Kshatrri or Kshattritha was earlier used for a charioteer or attendent. Then later Manu used it for an offsping of a mixed caste and Yagnavalkya used it for the son of a female slave.

    Epigraphica Indica, Vol 22, mentions that kshatri was originally an independent foreign tribe. If they were foreign, cud they be of non-hindu origin? Building temples was the best way to claim a higher social standing and integrate into native folks ...so perhaps, that is what they did in later times..
    Last edited by happyhindu; 24-08-2010 at 07:19 PM.
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    rcscwc is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Ramanujan View Post
    Guys here is an interesting issue. As you are aware that in our Indian Nation lot of inter marriages are taken place. Some ppl regard it good but some ppl regard it a danger to our culture. But I won't go into that.

    But here is an interesting case. A lot of tamil punjabi marriages are now a days a reality. In punjab sikhs constitute 55% and Hindus some 42%. Among the prominent clan is the khatri clan. They are sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Some Muslim khatris live in pak. Khatri is a punjabi word derived from kshtriya since there is no क्ष in punjabi mozhi. Now they are dominating everywhere in north as well some parts of the south. They are also present in large numbers abroad. In NCR they constitute a whopping 9 percent of the total population which I think is a significant percentage. Bollywood and business is full of them. Our PM is also a khatri.
    And a lot of inter marriages is a reality b/w tamil(both brah's and non brahs) and punjabis(esp the khatris). Although I don't have any statistics to show, its more of my observation which I saw in society.
    You can take it from me, a Punjabi brahmin tha:

    1. Khatris are not Brahmins.

    2. Most, not all, khatris are non vegetarians while Punjabi brahmins in general are vegetarians.

    3. Kahtris can be Hindu or Sikh.

    4. Marriages in Punjab too are intra religion and intra caste. With a few exceptions as elsewhere.

    5. Khatris in general are in business, not significant agricultural land holders.

    6. I. K. Gujaral too is a khatri, who just about escaped with his life in 1947 on Aug 16. He was 15 at that time.

    7. Khatris live in towns and cities, few in rural areas.
    Last edited by rcscwc; 18-09-2010 at 07:04 PM.
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