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  1. #31
    Vamanan is offline Junior Member
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    Shri Kunjuppu...I too learn only through experience.
    The first or second time I went to see Shri Jayakanthan, the writer, he asked me something about my caste....
    I was trying to maintain that I take a more broad view of society...something like that...
    He then asked...How can a man be a complete, integral person without having consideration for people of his caste...
    I learnt from him (I respect him greatly), that one should not try to bury this caste thing too much...
    Of course caste is not everthing....Again caste is not nothing...
    Let us not flog it...agreed there are many 'complexed' people who cannot come out of it and keep attacking the earlier dispensation...Their life for them...Some diseases are incurable...And for DK and gang it is bread, butter and jam.
    Only thing is, Brahmins should be able to go beyond the symbols of their past, connect to the living springs of spirituality, and get going without being defensive...That way the innovations you mention will happen spontaneously...When there could be a Vyaadha Rishi, why should there not be a Barber Brahmana (anything better than a barbecued Brahmana!)
  2. #32
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    A few inputs in this interesting conversation:

    Lets consider hindusim as a painting on a wall and you are examining it carefully as a person with no religion, gender, etc.

    Sure you can ignore the pimple marks, scars, spots, etc. But can you cannot ignore the cracks in the wall, widening into deep wedges, threatening to pull down the wall in smitherns. If you can ignore, good for you.

    But if you obfuscate, its not good for you.

    Lets not blame politicians, the british, the forefathers, etc, etc. Lets ask ourselves, why did we give all those ppl such a platform (caste identities) to work from?

    Right from missionary activites to anti-state activities, caste has figured everywhere.

    Hope some of you bother to look up stories on why 'dalits' turn into naxals, maoists, and are brainwashed into anti-state activities. Lets not blame the Ltte for hating the caste system. Except 'brahmins', is there a single soul that wants the 'caste system' to exist? Why?

    Simply because, imo, 'brahmins' have created texts that put them on "the top of some hierearchy" thus creating a system of segregation and discrimination; and have also possibly produced interpolations to keep themselves on top of the heirarchial beanpole.

    Instead of going far, lets have a look at the posters here. It does not matter to me, who considers me what. I know myself. My interests are many, my intellect is limited. Depending on the circumstances, i can be cowardly, aggressive, easily swayed by emotions, impatient, etc. I consider myself Shudra.

    At the same time, please do not kid me by asking me to consider old posters like Saab and Sesh as brahmins. Why should i? Simply bcoz of their birth and bcoz they do some rituals? And what makes anyone think that people like Saab, Sesh, Sbala actually have the right to designate their own varnas as well as that of others based on their birth and rituals?

    This, sirs, is the base reality. People do not want their varnas to be designated by those who they think have no right to do so. If you keep calling yourself a 'brahmin' and someone at the 'top of the hirearchy', then it will automatically define and keep a group called 'dalits' as dalits at the bottom of the heirarchial beanpole.

    I think this varna-jaati link hit a cresendo during the colonial period. I was taken aback to read the kind of violent stuff that brahmins in andhra were involved in during the coloial period. Am glad that such things are best forgotten.

    Methinks, 'brahmins' want to designate other people's varnas so that they can remain 'brahmin' (??).

    Ramansrini's started this thread by connecting varna and jaathi. His first post itself is not right (not wrong either). Sir, Varna is considered differnt from Jaathi, by Monastic traditions that have existed since a long time before Shri Adi Shankara. Except the Shankara mutts, as far as i know, all other Ekadandis do not accept a person's varna as connected to the occupation; and certainly not connected to the occupation of the father.

    Renuka says man will differentiate anyways - yes he will. But that does not mean one can justify the presence of segregation and discrimination based on scriptures (possibly hindusim is the only religion that created scriptures, and offers scriptural explanations for discrimination based on occupations).

    So where do we go from here?

    Is it possible to return to the vedic varna system (where varna was independent of jaathi; and a person cud be recruited into a different varna, if he showed such abilities) ??

    Is it possible to retain the jaathi system of the dharmashastras (that got linked to varna, and enforce people to stay within a same occupation just bcoz his dad professed it) ??

    And lets say at the end of the day we agree to stop arguing what is vedic or what is dharmashastric - and leave texts aside. So what do we do as individuals?

    Do we let the segregation (and the resultant discrimination) exist? Please do not try to convince me that segregation does not mean discrimination. Whatever you say, it will still result in discrimination, because there is something called a 'scriptural basis' to do so. What do we do with the "scriptural basis"?

    Lets stop the blame game and start thinking of solutions. Please post your views on what can be done from here on....and please leave the bashing of missionaries, politicians, non-hindus, etc out of this.

    Lets take an honest view of what we are first. And think of better (and practical) ways to go abt addressing these things.
    Last edited by happyhindu; 07-12-2009 at 10:32 AM.
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  4. #33
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    Some links i thot were valid for this discussion:

    1) No temple entry for dalits in Gujarat - India - The Times of India

    2) Mob blocks Dalits' entry into temple - India - The Times of India - please do not laugh at the vanniyas in this. Methinks they are still living in the old structure of wanting to promote themselves as 'kshatriyas' by keeping hierarchial divisions alive - and ofcourse, their attitude is based on the idea that caste has to be linked with varna (thanks to 'brahmins' i suppose). Today 'brahmins' can easily say we are not to be blamed, we do not practice such things, our forefathers were progressive and so on. But truly, can you continue to live in the same place (tamilnadu) and yet want to keep your hands washed off such things?

    3) Untouchability alive in rural areas: Study - India - The Times of India
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  6. #34
    RVR
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyhindu View Post
    Some links i thot were valid for this discussion:

    1) No temple entry for dalits in Gujarat - India - The Times of India


    2) Mob blocks Dalits' entry into temple - India - The Times of India - please do not laugh at the vanniyas in this. Methinks they are still living in the old structure of wanting to promote themselves as 'kshatriyas' by keeping hierarchial divisions alive - and ofcourse, their attitude is based on the idea that caste has to be linked with varna (thanks to 'brahmins' i suppose). Today 'brahmins' can easily say we are not to be blamed, we do not practice such things, our forefathers were progressive and so on. But truly, can you continue to live in the same place (tamilnadu) and yet want to keep your hands washed off such things?

    3) Untouchability alive in rural areas: Study - India - The Times of India
    There are strict legislation against untouchability in the country. Enforcing authorities have to do their duty. Why they are failing to do it? It is the duty of the District collector concerned to enforce the law with the help of police.

    Dravidian parties are ruling Tamilnadu. Why they are not enforcing? Let us not bother about other states. Atleast in Tamilnadu, TB has practically no say in the administration. But why do you blame TB for this.

    Last year in the Chidambaram Nataraja temple, reciting of Devaram was not allowed by Dikshidar community. Personally I condemned the attitude of Dikshidars. But Government went overboard and ensured that Dikshidars were overpowered and Devaram was recited at Nataraja temple. Some Dikshidars were arrested in the process.

    Why the same yardstick is not used against other communities who are preventing Daliths from entering temple? I earnestly feel it is pure vote bank politics. TB community is a miniscule minority. Whereas Vanniars are a big vote bank which the ruling party doesn't want to antogonise.

    TB community cannot do anything beyond condemning the incident and requesting the law to be enforced.

    All the best
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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by *** View Post
    Dravidian parties are ruling Tamilnadu. Why they are not enforcing? Let us not bother about other states. Atleast in Tamilnadu, TB has practically no say in the administration. But why do you blame TB for this.
    Am not interested in politicians - their aim is to make a platform for themselves for self-promotion. Caste system serves as their platform as and when they need it - as per their convenience.

    Am not blaming TBs.

    Such things came to exist bcoz something called 'shastras' promoted segregation (thereby resulting in discrimination). And that sir, imo, cannot be denied.
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  10. #36
    RVR
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    Prof Nara Sir, My replies are in blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Dear Shri. ***, Certainly not. But I wonder why you think the present day B's are being crucified. TB's are free to practice their religion and culture, without any interference from the government. They even can practice discriminatory practice like Brahmin only policy in Veda patashalas even with government subsidies.

    I am not sure whether Vedha Patasalas run with Government subsidy. If it is so, then they cannot discriminate in admitting students. It is against the constitution and if some body goes to court, it can be corrected. But Vedha Patasalas run by brahmin community can have their own rules which no body can object.


    Please see Kunjuppu's post on the thread earlier. He says it was a long ramble, but I say a very perceptive, gentle and engaging commentary.

    TB's may have played a leading role in the independence struggle, but they also benefited from both the colonialism of the British, and the independence that came afterward. Further, due to oppressive practices of over eons, they predominated the intelligentsia. Further, they were fighting for independence from British so that they can rule. For a dalit it did not matter much whether they were dominated by the British or by the Brahmins and upper castes. For them, at least the British did not practice untouchability.

    Let us talk about today. Brahmins are no way oppressing others. In actual practice, they don't have any power to do it. But brahmin bashing is going on.

    Indeed Agraharams are getting thinned out of TB's. But nobody forced them to move. They were living on the patronage of kings and the labor of dalits for centuries. When that changed, they moved to places that offered more lucrative opportunities. Now they lament -- the Muslims are moving into Agraharam. All these TB's who have moved to greener pastures come once a year for the Brhamotsavam and these Muslim terrorist sympathizers actually welcome them, offer not to cook NV during those days, and also contribute financially for the festivals.

    During my life time, I faced both class struggle and caste struggle. As you rightly said, we voluntarily gave up the fight and moved to greener pastures.

    In the erstwhile Tanjore district (comprising of present Tanjore, Tiruvarur and Nagappatinum districts) the rich land lords were not brahmins. Vadapathimangalam Mudaliar (6000 acres), Poondi Vandayar, Ukkadai Thevar, Valivalam Desikar, Kapisthalam Moopanar (All were holding 1000 acres plus). Kunniyur Sambasiva Iyer was richest brahmin having lands exceeding 500 acrs plus.They were exploiting dalith labourers more than the brahmins. When the agricultural land ceiling laws were enforced, brahmins gave up agriculture and were forced to vacate village agraharams.

    In 1968 about 42 daliths were burnt alive due to labour dispute between agri land lords and communist dalith labourers. No brahmin was involved in the incident. On the contrary most of the communist leaders then were brahmins like P.Ramamurthi, ASK Iyengar etc.

    http://www.boell-india.org/download_en/mohanty.pdf

    India was indeed conceived as a democracy. At that time there was no need to start from where other democracies started, by giving votes only to property owners. By this time the idea of universal franchise was the prevailing norm.

    On the one hand you take pride in India being a true democratic republic. Rightly so. But on the other hand you bemoan vote bank politics. That is what happens in democracies. Politicians appeal to the base instincts. Nixon devised the southern strategy is an example of that. Ronald Regan gave a speech just prior to announcing his candidacy from a place called Philadelphia Mississippi. This was the site of brutal murders of civil rights workers by the law enforcement officials. He did not say one word about the murders, in stead he talked about state rights, a code for racial politics. So, in a democracy the majority gets to rule.

    USA became true domocracy with equal rights only in 1965 after the passage of the following bill.

    Voting Rights Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    On the contrary India was truly democratic from January 26th 1950. Literacy levels were very very low and still voting rights were extended to all citizens.


    Education is a public good. Democratically elected governments get to make rules that hopefully benefit a large swath of the population. The reservation policy has not stifled the economic progress of the TB's. Look around, most TB's find a way to be successful. I don't see many doing daily wage labor. This is because of the huge cultural capital they have amassed over centuries of privilege. Now, when we have to pay a few thousands or few lakh rupees to get admission we whine and gripe about the unfairness of it all.

    Providing good quality of education to all citizens is the duty of the Government. It was late Kamaraj who introduced free school education to all and subsidised education at college level. It was done without opening liquor shops.

    But what the dravidian parties are doing? They opened liquor shops and amazed revenue for the Government. But there are no teachers in schools. Even if there is a teacher, he is not sincere. Still literacy levels in Tamilnadu is too low at 74% and ranks 10th among the different states in the country. Brahmins have no say for the past four decades. Even whatever EVR wanted is not happening. Cinema and Liquor lobby has high jacked Dravidian movement in Tamilnadu and the poor is deprived of their basic rights.

    TB community has no other option except protecting their own interests. Still there are substantial poor among TB community and I earnestly feel that it is the duty of well to do TBs to lift them out of poverty. You may argue that I talking selfish with narrow vision. But I earnestly feel that without any support from Government, we have to look only inwards to our community for help. I am not saying we should not help other community but we have to first look after our own community .


    Cheers!
    All the best
    Last edited by RVR; 07-12-2009 at 06:10 PM.
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  12. #37
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    Sri *** ji,

    Very well said......

    The subject of the thread is -"Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?". This is a very interesting subject and we could find lots of ideas exchanged between members.

    In line with your above explanations, I would like to point out - Who all are Hindus?.

    Brahmins and Non Brahmins are two major cast groups in Hinduism. Non Brahmins have further classifications and there exists High Cast and Low Cast within.

    Though Indian Government has constituted equality of rights for every cast and has stringent rules against cast discrimination, we Brahmins have been isolated from Hindu community as a whole and were deprived of Government privileges.

    My question is why NB's have such discriminations against Brahmins and why Brahmin bashing is still on when Brahmins are in no way overpowering, humiliating and exploiting other cast? [There may be political and many social reasons]

    Why NB's don’t have the sense of unanimity with Brahmins? Why are they not bothered to protect the interest of we Brahmins? [There may be political and many social reasons]


    In general why should NB's least bothered about Brahmins and upper cast NB's least bothered about lower cast NB's when we all are Hindus?

    Each cast is bothered about their own cast just under the banner of Hinduism and no one seems to be interested to safeguard Hinduism.

    As you said, all of we Brahmins (as human beings) should be helpful to any one irrespective of one's religion, cast and creed wherever and whenever necessary on humanitarian grounds. But we should have a vision to formulate our own well defined system to empower our community and sustain our cast till the existence of this Prabancham.

    Unless we keep focusing on the ways and means of strengthening our community unanimously nothing would be progressive and fruitful to the social interest of we all Brahmins and all the discussions here referring to History and present political scenario would just be exchange of ideas and nothing would be constructive.

    By protecting social interest I mean to say that the social/cultural setup of we Brahmins should continue to exist.


    Cheers.........


    ANBE SHIVAM...
    ----------------------------------
    The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
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  14. #38
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    Dear Sri Ravi Ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by C RAVI View Post
    Sri PVRaman ji,

    ........
    I just would like to highlight something that we believe in general -

    1) We believe that their are wandering souls as well
    2) As per the fate of a soul, a soul keeps wandering for specific time period as Prethatma
    3) This period of wandering as Prethatma are considered to be the fate of a soul and in this stage the soul suffers lots of pain and yearns to attain a body/janma or moksham.
    4) If we believe in previous birth, we claim that some of the basic qualities and attributes of the Atma continues to prevail in the present Janma.

    Based on above points, I would like to know as how your claim - "When Jiva which has no emotion, no feelings when enters into human has all the pain, pleasure and associated feelings and actions" can be substantiated?
    I wrote that because I was thinking about why we should achieve swarga and moksha (after reading BG). I want to learn about Jiva better. The points you have mentioned above, I knew vaguely. But, some of the questions are hanging in my mind.

    If a Jiva has emotions or can feel pain and pleasure, why it should have a human form again?

    Is it possible for a Jiva to attain moksha (liberation from rebirths & deaths) with the same quality of having emotions. Is it possible to achieve true liberation with the ability to have emotions?

    I always get these kind of sudden confusion which makes me to write like this to get some knowledge.

    (BTW - can you please inform me where I can know further about your points mentioned?)

    thanks
    pvraman
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  16. #39
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    Sri KRS JI

    Quote Originally Posted by KRS View Post
    I do not think that the Varna system was invented to 'keep down' the masses. Like any idealistic system (Communism, for example), it was devised with all good intentions.

    The requirements to be a brahmin of the yore is not followed by today's ilk and we can never go back to those times, as we are caught in the strong flow of industrialization/modernization. A brahmin is not a brahmin if other varnas performing their required roles also do not exist, as the roles were devised to be complementary and interdependent. If sudhras do not accept the brahmins, then following all the required brahminical varna dharma has no meaning. Because all the benefits to the mankind can only accrue if all in the system believe in the whole system. To say that if we go back to our brahmin dharma as prescribed, by ourselves alone, even if it can be accomplished (which it can not be), whether other dharmas exist is not a very logical argument to make. One needs all four dharmas to exist and function to make the varna system work.

    Regards,
    KRS
    Very Well Said Sir. This is my POV too.

    Regards
    pvraman
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  18. #40
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    To RVRji, a very good reply and wonderfull. s.r.k.
    My signature is Satsangi.
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