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Thread: Tell me why?

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    mathangi is offline Newbie
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    Tell me why?

    Do not think wrongly about me, I am just sharing what was there in my mind for a long time from my early childhood days , I keep questioning myself and I fail to get a convincing reply for my doubts and views.


    I clearly say to all that IDO BELIEVE IN GOD and the super natural power.But in inner mind I have a few queries, they are:

    where is written that all gods are/were brahmins- I do not think, lord Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, Parvathi, Lakshmi, Valli, Deivaanai, all devis like Annapoorani, Kamakshi, Visalakshi and so on .

    Then why in temples they are dressed like brahmins and thirumaangalyam is also worn like the brahmins, when as per the manu tying of thaali came later! why can't anyone who is neat and clean and believes in God do the pooja in temples?

    The present gurukkal in temples look so unhygenic in the upkeep of their bodies, and the dhothi oh!as if it has not been washed for years! Whether it is kudumi or cropped hair it should be well maintained and personal hygiene is more important sometimes it is disgusting to see them. But can you avoid?


    We know their caste or background and to my knowledge all their births are not out of proper relationship, either drinking something, born out of this ,that and ......

    Then why such a hue and cry for surrogacy,IVF conceptions etc?

    Thirdly , gaandarva marriages were so familiar and quite common in those days itself and there was unacceptance by the society, running away, eloping , taking the support of other family members were predominant!.Inter caste, low-high caste, untouchables etc were also there.

    Then why such a furore for inter-caste, love marriages? It is after all a bondage between two people who decide to live their life on their own, it is their responsibility to gel and adjust their life?

    Frankly speaking I have given and seen devotees giving money for the
    ''abhishekam'' in temples, and they do with milk, honey, coconut water, sugar, curd, rosewater, sandalwood powder, turmeric and ghee. And the best thing is all these are mixed together in most temples and a little portion is given to the visitors and the rest is thrown out.

    So many people struggle for a square meal and so many kids go without milk or food. Then why can't we the society put an end to this practise in doing this instead the temple authorities can use up a small negligible portion and the rest can be given as prasad or distributed among the poor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathangi View Post

    1) where is written that all gods are/were brahmins- I do not think, lord Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, Parvathi, Lakshmi, Valli, Deivaanai, all devis like Annapoorani, Kamakshi, Visalakshi and so on.

    2) Then why in temples they are dressed like brahmins and thirumaangalyam is also worn like the brahmins, when as per the manu tying of thaali came later!

    3) why can't anyone who is neat and clean and believes in God do the pooja in temples?
    1) Please watch the programme "Out of Egypt" on History channel. One view is that all over the world, people worshipped their kings and queens as gods, and on their death deified them as dieties and immortalized them.

    2) Perhaps the priest feels comfortable to dress up idols as per his own cultural liking. Its his comfort zone.

    3) In the south i notice that even to pour mik on the shiva lingam, the common man will ask the iyer to do it on his behalf. In the north i noticed that people do not do that. They simply do it on their own.

    Regards.
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    Sri Madhangi ji,

    I feel you have put forward very interesting and important questions..

    I would like to express my views for your questions the way I could understand and believe.

    For your first question -

    I would just like to share my opinion as a lay man.

    Brahmins are and are considered to be satvik in nature. Brahmins can also revolt if need be to sustain Dharma. Brahmins bear the responsibility to follow vedic principles. Etc..etc...

    I believe these are the qualities that we believe, GOD advocate.

    I think based on grate sage's costume and the description of costumes used by GOD in the form of Man during various incarnations; we Brahmins have adopted the style.

    I mean to say that we Brahmins have adopted specific costume styles that were offered to us by these descriptions.

    I think that's the reason we find the statue of GOD and GODESS in Temples dressed like we Brahmins. It is not that we have offered our style. In fact we have adopted the style as strict followers of GOD.

    For your second question -

    Gurukkals in temples looking unhygienic and wearing dirty dhotis are another issue. The point is they are Brahmins by birth and they are learned Vedic practitioners. A Brahmin by birth, having learned Vedam qualifies him as gurukkal / archagar in a temple.

    Doubts on their family background, their genuine Brahmin identity, the means of acquiring a job of archagar in a temple by devious means are all totally different issues.

    We can never amend our principles based on some exceptions and fraudulent activities. Thus the hue and cry exists.

    For your third question -

    We all can not control any individual’s marriage decisions in present scenario. Today’s girls and boys are much independent and are determined to lead their life as they wish. Thus inter cast marriages are much common and the couples are prepared to overcome any obstructions.

    We should agree the basic fact that anything happening in the society against a social system are common to receive objections and criticism (if at all. No one generally bothers about others life style commonly in a metropolitan/cosmopolitan cities) and the wrath of parents/family members.

    We as a society in large and in general are bothering dwindling numbers of our Brahmin cast and worrying about the vanishing Brahmin society in due course of time. But we can not and don't have any social/legal rights to punish people committing into inter-cast marriage. One's life is personal and no one is worried about one's personal life.

    We Brahmins are joining hands to sustain our society by exploring ways and means to promote marriages within our society. We are not against Love marriages. The point is, in today’s world majority of love marriages are based on one's looks, earning capacity and social status irrespective of religion and cast. True love hardly exists. A girl making her own selection can not necessarily be purely on true love, rather it can be to keep herself more comfortable with a guy in terms of social and financial liberty.

    For your forth question -

    Generally people are happy to see that their GOD and GODDES are offered with milk, curd, honey, tender coconut, etc..etc by way of Abhishekam. We want to please our God in return. People bring these things to temple at the time of Abhishekam to offer to GOD. Many make payment to a temple to perform such abhishekam (where temple staff bears the responsibility to make sufficient things available for Abhishekam). This is a collective performance that increases the quantity of each Abhishekam.

    If people are not contributing for the Abhishekam, I don't believe, the temple committee would spend that much for the Abhishekam.

    Temples are for the society and we all as a society wants temples to perform these Abhishekams. I don't believe that a vide spread society can be convinced to stop this practice and would be accepted unanimously.

    People in a society are always encouraged to contribute to the needy in any way possible. Such charities are also going on in our society. There are lots of philanthropist in our society who do care for the poor and needy and contributions are made to plenty of Trusts/society.

    My feelings were also in line with yours for many years. Now I could think that, instead of putting an end to this practice, we should formulate a rule that would make the public to contribute to the poor and needy while making contribution for Abhishekams. The devotees should make mandatory contribution of Rs.25 for every Abhishekam they sponsor, exclusively for charity. These payments should be accounted, accumulated and handed over to a charity organization to which the Temple committee would like to associate.


    Cheers.........


    ANBE SHIVAM...
    ----------------------------------
    The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
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    Dear Ravi ji,

    I have nothing to say abt your reply above. Cud not help smiling though.

    Just this one thing reg your answer to the first question:

    We do not know what the rishis wore, it is likely that they wore deer skin or animal skins (fibre material and cotton came later). Early man ofcourse roamed the jungles in animal skins.

    The concept of blouses were added to the saree later. So obviously, the concept of clothes have evolved over ages.

    Perhaps its just the comfort zone of the priest to dress up the idol in the likeness of his own mother.

    Regards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyhindu View Post
    Dear Ravi ji,

    I have nothing to say abt your reply above. Cud not help smiling though.

    Just this one thing reg your answer to the first question:

    We do not know what the rishis wore, it is likely that they wore deer skin or animal skins (fibre material and cotton came later). Early man ofcourse roamed the jungles in animal skins.

    The concept of blouses were added to the saree later. So obviously, the concept of clothes have evolved over ages.

    Perhaps its just the comfort zone of the priest to dress up the idol in the likeness of his own mother.

    Regards.
    Sri Happyhindu ji,

    Thank you for your generous reply....

    In fact I posted my views without going through yours. Otherwise I would have not presented mine, contradicting your matured and authenticated answer.

    I am happy to note that you could smile on my views as a lay man rather getting irritated.

    I have seen Goddess dressed like Madisaru and God dressed like Panjagacham in general.

    So I could presume that such a dressing sense could have been described in scriptures somewhere that could help us to adopt.
    Last edited by C RAVI; 05-12-2009 at 06:28 PM. Reason: spelling mistake
    Cheers.........


    ANBE SHIVAM...
    ----------------------------------
    The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
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    Dear Mathangi Ji

    Interesting Doubts,

    Quote Originally Posted by mathangi View Post

    where is written that all gods are/were brahmins- I do not think, lord Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, Parvathi, Lakshmi, Valli, Deivaanai, all devis like Annapoorani, Kamakshi, Visalakshi and so on .

    Then why in temples they are dressed like brahmins and thirumaangalyam is also worn like the brahmins, when as per the manu tying of thaali came later!
    I think not all the gods are brahmin as per your list, Rama is a Ksaktriya. IMHO, Sanadhana Dharma accepts as one supreme god and there are many paths to achieve it, so better you can select one of the paths attributed to the god and follow, you can also worship any other god.


    why can't anyone who is neat and clean and believes in God do the pooja in temples?
    When I work inside the factory with the machines, i normally get dirty due to the Grease and oils which are used for lubrication.

    You can see that the Oils are extensively used in poojas. Only solution to this problem, is to sponsor a free washing machine.


    The present gurukkal in temples look so unhygenic in the upkeep of their bodies, and the dhothi oh!as if it has not been washed for years!

    Whether it is kudumi or cropped hair it should be well maintained and personal hygiene is more important sometimes it is disgusting to see them. But can you avoid?
    If you have a small pooja room in your home, you lit the lamps and pray for 15 minutes. You will find the heat and poor ventilation (you can not switch on the fan, because you may not be able to lit the lamp) is too hot to handle.

    Even if you have fully bathed and scented, when you come out of the pooja room, you will appear as if you have not taken bath. Just imagine the priest standing there hours together. I wish you also see the difficulty of the job with poor ventilation and heat. (A cook & and Hindu priest never look pretty when they are in action - My own words )


    We know their caste or background and to my knowledge all their births are not out of proper relationship, either drinking something, born out of this ,that and ......
    Honestly, I do not understand what you intend to say, please explain.

    Thirdly , gaandarva marriages were so familiar and quite common in those days ...
    I understand, But I do think that in Modern days, unless one chooses a bad partner atleast not financially secure, or with bad character, parents try not to oppose. If the boy of the choice is reasonably good, there wont be any further problem. A parent nowadays more than the caste just care about the boys profession and then the financial status. IMHO, they should.

    See if its a bad decision out of infatuation, if they marry, and if fails after few days/months/years - the girl, either commits suicide, or run back to parents. There are some problems which can not be reversed. There are not many broad minded people in the society. A middle class girl can not say to a boy, that I have already married and divorced. Will you marry me? yeah it may (very less chance too!) work out with an aged divorcee. So again it depends on one's financial position. The end result will be the eternal stress on parents and the girl.


    Then why such a furore for inter-caste, love marriages? It is after all a bondage between two people who decide to live their life on their own, it is their responsibility to gel and adjust their life?
    I am interested to see your answer, what should be the parents roll from the birth of the child? In your opinion?.


    Frankly speaking I have given and seen devotees giving money for the
    ''abhishekam'' in temples, and they do with milk, honey, coconut water, sugar, curd, rosewater, sandalwood powder, turmeric and ghee. And the best thing is all these are mixed together in most temples and a little portion is given to the visitors and the rest is thrown out. So many people struggle for a square meal and so many kids go without milk or food. Then why can't we the society put an end to this practise in doing this instead the temple authorities can use up a small negligible portion and the rest can be given as prasad or distributed among the poor.
    There is a nice idiom, "penny wise pound foolish".

    Are you not hearing about the Indian Money stashed in Swiss bank , Great Scams and the wealth of politicians......

    Your thinking is a noble one. Lets put everything in a balance. If our intentions are to help the poor, there are lot more chances than offering the remaining milk and food to the poor (which,IMHO, may not be good for a complete meal).

    Every devotee can spend equal amount of money on poor as his spending towards God. That's a first step.

    Regards
    Last edited by pvraman; 05-12-2009 at 08:18 PM.
    pvraman
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    Sow. Sri Mathangi said:-
    “I clearly say to all that IDO BELIEVE IN GOD and the super natural power.”

    Sow. Mathangi,
    It is irrelevant information for this forum. This is one of the attractions of this forum. Mostly all the members give importance only to the message; not the messenger. For example, I do not believe in God.

    Sow. Sri. Mathangi :-
    “where is written that all gods are/were brahmins- I do not think, lord Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, Parvathi, Lakshmi, Valli, Deivaanai, all devis like Annapoorani, Kamakshi, Visalakshi and so on .

    Then why in temples they are dressed like brahmins and thirumaangalyam is also worn like the brahmins, when as per the manu tying of thaali came later!”

    Sow. Mathangi, you are right. None of the Gods mentioned in your list are/were Brahmins. Only Parasurama (not in your list) came close. Ironically there is only one temple for Parasurama. (http://www.zonkerala.com/tourism/Parasurama-Temple-Thiruvallam-17.html ). I do not understand the term ‘dressed like Brahmins”. Only some of the caste Brahmins wear ‘panchakatcham’ in Tamil Nadu; but in north India, everyone (hindus) wears a kind of ‘pancha katcham’. As per the saree, ‘madisar kattu’ is not common for the deities. Please correct me, if I am wrong.
    Thirumangalyam came later and much later came along electricity, air conditioning etc. I would take that as evolutionary changes.

    Sow. Sri. Mathangi asked :-
    “why can't anyone who is neat and clean and believes in God do the pooja in temples?”

    Kindly allow me to address the ‘clean and neat’ bit later. Why should the Gurukkal believe in God? Gurukkal is not conducting the pooja or archana for the benefit of himself or his family; but, he conducts the pooja for the benefit of the ‘yajaman’. It is in the sankalpa mantram. When the Gurukkal say ‘yajamanasya’, the devotee says ‘mama’ (not uncle!). so, it is only the devotee who needs to believe in god and the pooja; not the Gurukkal.

    Sow. Sri. Mathangi said :-
    The present gurukkal in temples look so unhygenic in the upkeep of their bodies, and the dhothi oh!as if it has not been washed for years! Whether it is kudumi or cropped hair it should be well maintained and personal hygiene is more important sometimes it is disgusting to see them. But can you avoid?

    Nothing stops the Gurukkal to be presentable. I asked one ‘Gurukkal agathu mami’ (my next door neighbour in the village). She said that the Gurukkal should avoid looking handsome and attractive since he is likely to come in contact with so many ladies. But, as you rightly said, they should be neat, clean and presentable.
    Can we avoid? Yes, we can by avoiding visits to such temples.

    Sow. Sri. Mathangi said:-
    “We know their caste or background and to my knowledge all their births are not out of proper relationship, either drinking something, born out of this ,that and ......”

    I am sorry, but I see this as a slanderous statement hurled across the board. If you are willing to edit your post, I will edit my post too. I personally know few Gurukkal who help other human beings irrespective of their caste or religion. This statement hurts and not true.

    Sow, Sri. Mathangi asked :-
    “Then why such a hue and cry for surrogacy,IVF conceptions etc?”

    I do not understand this question. I am unable to answer that.

    Sow. Sri. Mathangi asked:-
    “Then why such a furore for inter-caste, love marriages? It is after all a bondage between two people who decide to live their life on their own, it is their responsibility to gel and adjust their life?”

    I think you are addressing everyone in this question, because, this is applicable to not only Gurukkal community, but everyone. Well, shall we say that our society is not yet ready for inter-caste marriages? In the future may be; not yet though.

    Sow. Sri. Mathangi said :-
    “Frankly speaking I have given and seen devotees giving money for the ''abhishekam'' in temples, and they do with milk, honey, coconut water, sugar, curd, rosewater, sandalwood powder, turmeric and ghee. And the best thing is all these are mixed together in most temples and a little portion is given to the visitors and the rest is thrown out.

    So many people struggle for a square meal and so many kids go without milk or food. Then why can't we the society put an end to this practise in doing this instead the temple authorities can use up a small negligible portion and the rest can be given as prasad or distributed among the poor.”

    The fact that you are mentioning it here shows that you are seriously thinking about it. That is a very good sign for the betterment of the society. More and more people are thinking in the same lines. More and more people are acting upon them too. Who knows? On the day of my thivasam, my son may offer ‘pitru pindam’ by feeding the children of an orphanage in India for the whole day!
    Last edited by Raghy; 06-12-2009 at 11:33 AM.
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    Dear Raghy, Only your last part of answer attracted me. You were saying your son may offer pitru pindam by feeding children in orphanage. Sir to be frank I am doing this to my parents for many years But it goes to old age home and not to children. Years back I was also asking VADHYAR to come and do the rituals. HIs non availability, half swollen manthras and greediness for money has changed my mindset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kr subramanian View Post
    dear raghy, only your last part of answer attracted me. You were saying your son may offer pitru pindam by feeding children in orphanage. Sir to be frank i am doing this to my parents for many years but it goes to old age home and not to children. Years back i was also asking vadhyar to come and do the rituals. His non availability, half swollen manthras and greediness for money has changed my mindset.

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    "When I go to this temple I get vibratiuons."
    "I find this temple repulsive because of an obnoxious smell when I enter"
    "I find this Vadhyar swalowing manthras".
    "This Vadhyar is very greedy"
    "I give food to an orphanage because there are orphans there who have no one to feed them and the fact that they thank me tickles me and I feel happy"
    "What is wrong in my marrying my chosen boy"
    In all these above statements I observe something. They are all from a highly subjective way of looking at things. The "I","my"and "our" are prominent. And they are mostly judgmental with words like "greedy""unclean""ignorant" etc.

    In the presence of God in the temple as long as the "I" stands prominently, one never reaches anywhere near the God.
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