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  1. #41
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    Last edited by happyhindu; 13-03-2009 at 02:03 PM.
  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by s007bala View Post
    Genes are physical evidence of human anatomy.But we are spirit souls or jivatmas.The consciousness transfers to a jiva,using man & woman as an instrument.This conscoiusness is brahaman.The original DNA & genetic identity of brahmins as well as for tamil brahmins.
    ??

    Again Bala, its tuf 2 understand what you are saying.

    If you are saying things about consciousness as brahman, please keep that seperate.

    If you are saying consciousness as brahman is something related to the 'original dna' (what on earth is that) or genetic identity of brahmins / tamil brahmins, then i think you are not making any sense at all. (sorry sir, in terms of an identity, there seems to be no one single source as yet, individuals of the same haplogroups are supposed to have been related in remote times, various ppl of the the brahminical commnities turn up with diff haplogroups, no one knows how our understanding in future may change with advancing techniques).

    Then again if you are saying consciousness as brahman gets transferred to "brahmins", what would that make the alwars, sages like agastya, yogis, etc. How about Mahavtar Babaji?

    Quote Originally Posted by vivekanand View Post
    If you are saying the present day pakistanis are the orginal caste creators which was also part of the indian subcontinent (as per the archaic term), then in some sense do u think we are more genetically related to pakistanis if caste sytsem came from there. And if so the so called aryan concept came from there. could you please clarify on this. I guess sunni and shia are more related to iraqis and not pakistanis if iam right.
    Abt being related to Pakistanis (not related to creation of caste system): several of our populations are related to Pak-populations. Many indians migrated from the NW into India in very ancient times. Sunni and Shias of India are generally indian (may include pakistan and afghanistan as central asian or ancient india). A very remote match to iraqis / kurds may exist in anyone (they do in hindus as well, such as me, not just given indian muslims).
    Last edited by happyhindu; 05-02-2009 at 10:00 AM. Reason: clarification
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  4. #43
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    H H

    Pardone me for confusing you.

    >>If you are saying consciousness as brahman is something related to the 'original dna' (what on earth is that) or genetic identity of brahmins / tamil brahmins, then i think you are not making any sense at all. (sorry sir, in terms of an identity, there seems to be no one single source as yet, individuals of the same haplogroups are supposed to have been related in remote times, various ppl of the the brahminical commnities turn up with diff haplogroups, no one knows how our understanding in future may change with advancing techniques). <<

    The one expands to many.The one is brahman ie in our case saguna brahman.But consciousness has no form.So nirguna brahman.Tamizh is a language used for communication from a particular region in bhu-loka.Just as other languages exist.The point of origination is Tamizh Nadu.

    >>Then again if you are saying consciousness as brahman gets transferred to "brahmins", what would that make the alwars, sages like agastya, yogis, etc. How about Mahavtar Babaji?<<

    Brahmins are those set of people,who have the ability,to understand brahman,and in some cases,explain brahman to majority of people.Alwars,Agastya,Yogis,Maha Avtar Babaji.....are technically Brahmins,imho.

    sb
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  6. #44
    vivekanand is offline Newbie
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    Hi bala

    In fact i have read about upanisads texts and other texts and i do know about saguna and nirguna brahman. I also read about advaiatam and dvaitam philosphy and where how it origninated. In fact i have read about Ramanamaharishi teaching and ofcourse in their teaching they are talking about consciousness and the meaning of conciousness and how if functions. In fact there are some many yogis and who reached this plane. To my knowledge most of the upanisad was probably written by chatriyas and other people who were in quest of truth about what a human being is. Anyways for your statement
    Brahmins are those set of people,who have the ability,to understand brahman,and in some cases,explain brahman to majority of people.Alwars,Agastya,Yogis,Maha Avtar Babaji.....are technically Brahmins,imho
    In the current world everbody can become a brahmin, but set aside from in the modern world we have to start looking from genetics term rather than from catse terms, probbaly because thinghs might change after 50 years of how the world is. All iam saying be happy of your lineage and try to know how we came in this world. This would help us minimize our arrogance and ignorance

    In fact to tell u some details, i have discussed some of the lead people in this genographic area and they have somethingh else to say about DNA, the way it looks like they have collected lot of samples and they have done lot of ground work by collecting samples from indegneous people and other people to find out how man started to migrate. Ofcourse we have to give due credit to westerners because they have been much adventorous and have proved lot of theories of that lot of mythology has been wrong. The debate here is genetic ancestry
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  8. #45
    vivekanand is offline Newbie
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    Re : Happy Hindu Asnwer

    Hi Happy Hindu

    Thanks for your detailed reply on genetic ancestry, Iam very happy to hear that u got detailed version about genetic ancestry. In fact i did send some email to Dr Pitchappan and i got reply from him promptly, however the problem somebody should be having a proactive spirit to take this activity to get the data points and iam not finding anybody proactive here/there, iam really amazed by americans and europeans that they cooperate to give data points which i do not see here. In fact i did discuss with some of my freinds and soem of them are really interested and there are brahmins gathering here and there and it is just these people from madurai should go to school and college to gather data points and brahmins and other caste functions to gather data points. But nobody is willing to cometogether on these things. Nobody understands that these data points will be useful at some point in life. Now that technology is there at our disposal and there are data points why cannot people take initiative to gather details. In fact the subcontient has lot of data points and stories to tell. In fact i had a discussion with another elder person and he is willing to give but how to gather people and collect data sets and get the trust is the question here.

    Ciao
    Vivek
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  10. #46
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    re

    Shri Vivekanada

    I am not sure what to infer from your reply.To me,those people who have the ability to understand brahman concept and explain brahman are brahmins.They could be born in any part of the world and could be any citizenship.This is my opinion.Besides this,this DNA,Blood Group,Genes...etc are only physical dimension of the brahman consciousness.The consciousness can exist without any 'body' as pure consciousness,as supreme truth.This is my self-realisation.I do not expect nor am i expecting people to adhere to this view point nor am i proselytising this view of mine.Hope i am clear and articulate,at least now.If i have confused you as well alongwith shrimathi H H,i truly am sorry,on account of my poor writing ability.But thanks.

    sb
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  12. #47
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    Hi Vivekanand,

    You are very right about us Indians being least proactive in these things.

    I think the main reason maybe bcoz of prohibitive costs. To do hvr1 alone, a company usually charges a minimum of 90$. The more detailed stuff you want, the more you pay. If you want the most in depth stuff available as of current time, then you very easily pay one company about 1000 US$ for one person alone. And most times, people also want to try out other companies, so it all adds up very fast.

    But genetic ancestry apart, it would be great to have the right version of history first. The anthropological basis to the development of religion and various cultures cannot be overlooked. So it wud all end up as a very inter-disciplinary thing.

    While the west accepts biblical stories or oral traditions to help shed light on migration patterns, for us indians this may not really work (our imaginations run wild and stories are very over the board, extra-ordinary kind, some portions or stories in the puranas are narrated by pigs or crocodiles -sigh! some are outright ridiculous). But then there are also some parts that might help..like there is a story in the padmapurana about yayati asking yadu to kill his wives devyani and sharmista (as a test) so that he cud marry his lady love; and when yadu refused yayati cursed him that his decendents wud bcome matriarchial...that may explain the migration of some yadus who went down south and followed a matriarchial culture like the bunts and nairs (?).

    Then there are many times when history (or data points as you say) do not match genetic migratory patterns. Given the regional ticks in these things, data points for brahmins cud really be interesting. For now, it is thought by some that various tribes probably had their own brahmins who later merged into a class system, so origins may not be the same for all.
    Last edited by happyhindu; 10-02-2009 at 03:18 PM. Reason: removed unnecessary stuff
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  14. #48
    vivekanand is offline Newbie
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    Re : Genetics and migratory paths

    Hi happy Hindu

    Yes i agree in lot of terms, The west always agrees with bibilcal thinghs even when u read spencer wells book there are few thinghs which he starts off with by saying ADAM of course what we have to know is that his ADAM and Eve is 60000 years old (which is totally wrong as per the bible traidition) and nobody still knows how many people migrated, In fact according to hindu tradition Ramanayana and upanisadhs are the oldest and the concept has been 60000 years old of course if ramayana seems to be true then we have to trace facts say 60000 years ago. There are lot of good thinghs in Hindu religion like sanskrit and upanisads and other deeper insights.

    In fact regarding substantial cost i did ask professor the cost posted in national geography is really high, and he did mention that giving data points to him (at least 100 data points) would result in free cost and will result in giving knowledge abouth some question i had posted.

    It looks like you have done more field work in this field, seems like you have done amount of genetic research. But one thing which seems to be interesting is whether our history text books are right or not. Who were the actual indus valley people, who were the orginators of the veda like for example i associate myself with sama veda and if you look the caste system had given good and bad thinghs it did isolation which could give us an identity and now if use these caste for finding our genetic traces it could help if we have really followed our pattern as per the norms of the caste system. In fact i always look at what IBm is doing research in and find out what they are comming to. In fact as more schools are opened up amd help on technology front is taken from the west and myhtological tales from the east then we would be able to get a clearer picture, Initiatives like potical corperation, people coorperation and honesty could only help in solving these problems. For example nobody knows who these naga sadhus are and where they came from, if genetic data helps in solving this problem it would be good or probably mystery remains as mystery.

    Ciao
    Vivek
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