Christian Evangelism & Conversion Among Brahmins

[KAUNDINYA]

Like most other people, Brahmins also seem to think that there is danger only from Islamic terrorism, but in reality Christian evangelism is as bad as Islamic terrorism. I know at least a dozen Brahmins in Madras & elsewhere, all educated and well-to-do, who have been converted to Christianity in the last decade. Everyone knows that most private tv channels in different Indian languages telecast daily (especially in the mornings) Christian propaganda programmes which do influence people who are in trouble & who think desperately, "ethai thindral pitham theliyum ?". If you watch something daily there is a likelihood of your getting influenced by that. The evangelists, both Indian and western, talk about miracles being performed by Jesus Christ even today and the tv viewers are tempted. Some of them fall into the trap of the evangelists & embrace Christianity. In the 16th & 17th centuries, Roman Catholic Jesuit priests like ROBERT DE NOBILI tried hard to convert the Tamil Brahmins to christianity. Details of this can be found in the Tamil book "KRITHAVAMUM SAATHIYUM" (Christianity & Caste) published by KAALACHUVADU PATHIPPAGAM, Nagarkoil, Kanyakumari Dt.
I would like members to discuss: a) The danger of Brahmins converting to Christianity; & b) Whether miracles do happen in Christianity or whether it is all a hoax. This topic vitally affects not only Brahmins but all Hindus.:plane: :horn:

[shuddhi]

The activities of these conversion experts are in fact done with direct support in the form of money and kind from the Vatican itself. It has also become easy with our head of state(I mean the "real" head of state) enthusiatically making things more benign to such activities. The hidden agenda they have to eradicate hinduism from the face of the Earth and implement their religion which is merely 2000 years old is deplorable and heart-wrenching. I hope Lord Krishna takes his avatar now and destroys these evils!

To clear any misconception, I am not against christians in general nor against any converts who converted out of their own volition(with zero influence from the outside and just through mere pro-active self-education).

I wonder why Hindus do not do he same conversion? I know its not even valid in our scriptures, but looking at it in a political way and accounting for the intricacies of today's evils, why cant we all relax some rules and do a reverse conversion? Only if we do this wth double the zeal of these mongrels can we succeed in ending this evil. we should hit them hard in the eye.

[KAUNDINYA]

The real culprit now is not the Roman Catholic Church or the Vatican. They stopped mass conversions long ago. It is evangelical christians from the
U.S.A. and their Indian collaborators who are responsible for the aggressive evangelism. The Pentecostal Church, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Assemblies of God Church, the United Church of God, etc., fall under this group. It is a pity that the present President of the U.S.A. George W. Bush is a christian fundamentalist. He belongs to a group called "Born Again Christians", but he is not a true christian. Had he been one, he would have forgiven Osama bin Laden. Further he would not have invaded Iraq for the sake of oil. Previously U.S. aid to third world countries like India used to be sent to service organisations directly. But as soon as G.W.Bush became the President of the U.S.A., he ordered that aid to third world countries be routed through christian evangelical organisations. THERE IS A WEBSITE CALLED "WWW.CHRISTIANAGGRESSION.ORG" WHICH I RECOMMEND TO EVERY MEMBER. George W. Bush is the enemy of not only Arabs & Muslims, he is also the enemy of all non-Christians like Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs & Parsis. As for reconversion of Christians to Hinduism, this is already being done by Hindu organisations such as the R.S.S., V.H.P., etc.

[rsridhar]

I agree with u all. US is a strong supporter and activist behind the scene of conversion. But here i insist that who ever converted were not true hindus, upto me. Hindusm is the only religion, upto me, which has no restrictions like other religions has. Hinduism survived this many years after several wars and several convertion because of its own nature. Those who don't believe themselves will convert to other religion. I strongly condemn those people who stage some drama called 'parisutha aavi ezhupudhal kootam', they are using the hindu names even after the person's convertion. Iam proud to say that me and my friends are generous enough to respect other religion and against convertion to other religion. somebody earlier said 'manam maruvor madham marattum'. its true, isint'd.

everyone pls post your views.

[KAUNDINYA]

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[KAUNDINYA]

WORLD MISSION



World Religions

Satan has formulated may different religions to keep people from a relationship with Jesus. Some of the religions that are blinding the most number of people from the truth of God in the world today are listed below. Each section will give you a brief review and history of the religion as well as tips for ministering to that particular group of people.

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What You Can Do

[praveen]

brahmins were probably the only people who did not force others into converting to be accepted.

right from time immemorial, we have embraced others and have been supportive of their causes as well.

unfortunately leaders of other religions decided to force the people into conversions in order to boost their numbers in the senseless thought of strength in numbers.

whereas we always believed in brains :)

those who lack the courage to face the daily life convert for the sake of short term gains and eventually realize they were better off not converting.

[ashgene]

This is very true and an issue that needs to be addressed. Forced conversion is a big business practised by many organisations. It is unfortunate that a law banning such malific practises has to be withdrawn. I had recently seen some pamplets (old during Kumbmela) distributed by certain organisations asking their agents to ' Preach thoughts from bibles' for people attending the Kumbhmela celebrations as that is the place where millions of diehard hindu devotees attend. The pamplet also provides some strategies for conversion and how to go about it. I also think that the lack of proper guidance into the facets and importance of hindusim and the improper understanding of being what an Hindu is has also added to the effect of conversion being wide spread.

[srkpriv]

Hindus should convert others into our fold. But the problem is hindus are divided by caste divisions. So converting others into the fold becomes very difficult. So, I am actually working on an organization (nothing launched yet, will be soon) to unify hindus without caste, have a unified hindu concept of prayer and sprituality, where reaching god is not limited to just one caste, one person or one group. Regardless of your origin, your current standing, you will judged only by your devotion to one unified humanity under Reformed Hinduism. This will be a reformed hinduism, where the humane causes and sprituality to the max will be emphasized. We should lose our caste and work together a hinduism for our own sake and future. Until then nothing is gonna happen!. Hinduism without caste! a mono-theistic hinduism as given by the original texts.

[shankar]

We want to have the cake and eat it too.
We talk of stopping conversion from Hinduism to other religions. But at the same time we raise a hue and cry for allowing all caste people to qualify and become archakas. ( Though I , more than100%, agree that the intentions of TN government or MK is anything other than noble)

Some of us want to practise untouchability even today! Some of us want to nurture their superiority complex even today! We will practise all sorts of discrimination and then say there should be no conversions! Are Brahmins the whole-sole authority to protect Hinduism- If so, let us find ways and means to rectify the problems within our religion and create an atmosphere to make everyone stay within -

How much our mutts have contributed to the uplift of Hindus? Yes they have tried a bit but still it is very much insufficient -

We dont give respect to Swamijis of Missionary mutts like Ramaktrishna mission- We don't even consider them as saints - We only respect swamijis who can do pujas and give prsadams- Not the swamijis who serve the society thru education and other services!

So if we want to stop conversions it should be through reforms in our religion- social service and other good work - Not by just crying hoarse about other religions nor by any governmental ordinance or laws!

Views welcome!

Shankar

[silverfox]

Dear Shankar

Bravo! Bravo! An excellent and outstanding write-up! Yes, if Hinduism is to survive, our Acharyas (Sankaracharya, Jeer Swamigal for the Vaishnavas) must go out to the slums and serve the folks out there; just preaching is not going to cut it. I was told that Sankaracharya wouldn't even see a widow. I don't know if this is true (I have been cut-off from India for 40 years!) but if it is, what does it tell us about our own religion? The wodowed woman not only goes thru life with the loss of her husband, she is also being shunned (in weddings and in other auspicous occasions, she is always excluded!), she is discriminated against and she is pushed out. However, we all sit on our high horse and brag about how great our traditions and religion are. We all have got to examine ourselves and do some serious thinking.


In some ways, I admire the christian missionaries; they go out among the slums and serve the people. Mother Theresa comes to mind.

God did not create castes. If we are to change the minds of those downtrodden who might be pondering conversion (it doesn't matter if they are given monetary benefits), then we must also go out amongst them and serve them and only then we could talk about Hinduism.
Just passing a law against conversion will not work; it actually backfired.

[srkpriv]

If you gonna count on Sankaracharya and Jeeyar for going out to slum and preach hinduism for converting people or expanding our religion. We can kiss our aspirations good bye!. Not gonna happen. Everytime they come into contact with slum person, they will have to take bath, or they will have to put water on their legs and wash it adn so many things like that they have to do. It is only makes sure that people will convert out of hinduism to other religion after seeing that!. It is better if they are better confined to their mutts and left with their own ways. sorry no offence!. :)

[bsramnarayan]

There was no church in the village where I was born until recently. Now there are 3 in the village and a new under construction in nearby area is a real big one
.
All these are because of the conversion strategies by the Christian missionaries.
They change mind by doing simple things. For example, if some one has fallen ill
these group of people either visit patient in the hospital or at home and pray for his recovery. They take free tuition class for poor children and out of the 1 hour tuition more than half is spend in some kind of activities related to Christianity/ jesus.

In my village we have started an org to do some simple service. Our aim is to unite Hindu folks and spread awareness. Some of the activities we are doing are same as what a missionary do but people welcome us and may elder people of all caste are really happy and started supporting us openly.

We are taking social and moral (Hindu values) class for children in the age group 8-12.

Conducted special pooja for the benefit of all 10th and 12th class students. Unlike the normal one where people goto temple and priest tell something in a unknown language ,
we asked every student to write ‘sri rama jayam’ or ‘om muruga’ anything like that on their favorite God. They were also asked to chant OM NAMA SHIVAYA 108 times in chorus. There was a huge mass and good support.

Our guys are frequently visiting the govt hospital in nearby area and just give vibudhi and some prasadam to the patients and talk a few words with them.

Conducting pournami vilaku pooja.

All these simple activities definitely created a impact. Initially it was difficult to involve youngsters in these activities but now they are doing good job, you have to encourage them constantly.

Most of us Irrespective of the education / background criticize many of the practices in Hinduism without any intention to know the truth behind. This affect us badly. None of the information, practices that is told or followed in Hinduism is for time pass. Every single thing whatever it is, has its meaning. We just does not have the patience to learn what it says,

So you are teased by missionaries easily and since you do not have a answer you drop your practice and follow their path.

We are trying our best in teaching children the essence of these practices and the science in Hinduism. These children as questions at their level and try to understand but most of the now youths just call it ‘bull.... ‘ !

Thank you,

[sln41]

Dear Sri. bsramnarayan,

A very good post. Nice to note that yo are doing lot of service to hmanity. Keep it up. Let us hope that your effort is replicated by others. Best of Luck.

Sri. Silverfox : Please be informed that Sankaracharya of Kanchi Mutt is receiving Widows and you are not properly informed. It is understandable because you admit that you are away from Tamil Nadu for the last 40 years.

Sri. srkpriv: Whether other Hindus go to slums for helping them or not surely Sankaracharya does. You can therefore be relaxed on that score. Kanchi Mutt is definitely taking lot of actions which the individuals like you and me may find it difficult to do like opening educational institutions, hospitals etc.

Let us not criticise others with out proper information. If we do the evangelist will take advantage of the same and unwittingly we will be playing into their hands. Sri. sramnarayan has aptly pointed out the same in his post and I agree with him

Please do give ideas of what we all jointly can do and let us try to implement them.

If I have said anything wrong I am sorry. It is just I want to express my views.

[srkpriv]

"Kanchi Mutt is definitely taking lot of actions which the individuals like you and me may find it difficult to do like opening educational institutions, hospitals etc."

We were only talking about kanchi acharyas (or jeeyar) for that matter goin going to slum and preching or treating them as equals and part of hindu community. I am well aware that Hindu Mission Hospital and other educational institutions were started by kanchi mutt.

"Let us not criticise others with out proper information".

Who can decide what is proper or not?. How can you conclude someone is not talking without proper information (not talking sense).

[srkpriv]

Mr. bsramnarayan, HATS OFF TO YOU! YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB! KEEP IT UP!. HOPEFULL YOU ALSO DO MORE TO CONVERT THE PEOPLE BACK TO HINDUISM AND HELP HINDUISM SURVIVE AND BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE 21ST CENTURY. ESPECIALLY YOU DO WHAT OTHERS FAILED TO DO!.

There was no church in the village where I was born until recently. Now there are 3 in the village and a new under construction in nearby area is a real big one
.
All these are because of the conversion strategies by the Christian missionaries.
They change mind by doing simple things. For example, if some one has fallen ill
these group of people either visit patient in the hospital or at home and pray for his recovery. They take free tuition class for poor children and out of the 1 hour tuition more than half is spend in some kind of activities related to Christianity/ jesus.

In my village we have started an org to do some simple service. Our aim is to unite Hindu folks and spread awareness. Some of the activities we are doing are same as what a missionary do but people welcome us and may elder people of all caste are really happy and started supporting us openly

[srkpriv]

It is very true. I went to India this time for vacation I saw a lot of christians in India. I am really wondering whether christians are just 2.5% of population india being true!. I saw them running call-taxi, I hear about lot of gospel TVs, I see them in shops and so many. It is like they are everywhere. I am definitely seeing more christians in India (in Chennai) than I saw in the last 10 years prior or so!.

It just confirms that the conversion efforts are quite high and quite fast and quite SUCCESSFUL! in that. No other reason can be attributed. If hindus dont do anything it is only a matter of time that we see hinduism die.

If you see phillipines history the entire population was converted in 20 to 40 years or so. Phillipines is now a christian majority country and a 95% in that one.

Recent statistics say that Nagaland (a land of tribals) is report 95% christians in the last population census.

This also says that christians are very effective in converting people to christianity if the population of the place is quite low. In India it is understandable to see why the efforts have been slower till now. But in the years to come due to digital age and technology we will see a lot of conversion and at a much faster rate!.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the next census indian government says, christians are 10% of the population.

There was no church in the village where I was born until recently. Now there are 3 in the village and a new under construction in nearby area is a real big one

[sln41]

Dear Sri. srkpriv

Kanchi Acharya also goes to slum areas and treats them as equals to others. I have no information about Jeers. What is proper information? What is true is proper information. We are all here with mutual trust and everything cannot be proved over the net.

I really don't think you are making all these queries for want of knowledge but out of anger against my posting. If so I want to reiterate I am sorry.

[shankar]

Self-introspection is very much required while analysing the reason for the exodus of people from Hinduism. Avoiding self-introspection and closing our eyes to the facts and reality, will not lead us anywhere.

Let us accept that we need to correct so many things in Hindu society:

*Caste hierarchy

*Untouchability (Still exists: eg. Papapatti, Keeripatti)

* Too much of importance to astrology and related problems

* Dowry

* Gender inequality ( Dont say it is more in Islam - That is not a reason not to correct ourselves)

* Brahmin and upper caste dominance in religious functions ( Why we want to play broker between God and man?)

etc.. etc...

We should have more missions like Sri Ramakrishna Mission.
Sivananda Gurukulam near Tambaram is doing yeoman service to orphaned children!
Sri Satya Sai samiti is doing wonderful social service! With the initiative of Baba, the water problem of Ananthapur district has been tackled to a large extent! A wonderful hospital is functioning in Puttaparthi and Bangalore!

Kanchi Mutt hospitals are doing good service!

But....

this is very less for the huge Hindu population!

Unless we succeed in making the poorest of the poor and the lower-most in the caste hierarchy to feel that they are one among us- we can not think of stopping the conversions!
It can not be achieved by law!

Let us all strive for that!

Shankar

[srkpriv]

Why would I get angry against your posts? Why do you have to say you are sorry? Doesn't make sense to me. How do you know whether I thirsting for knowledge or just the opposite? Instead of analyzing me please stick to making your points in the forum.

I really don't think you are making all these queries for want of knowledge but out of anger against my posting. If so I want to reiterate I am sorry.

[srkpriv]

Nice points I think everyone in the forum (and also others I speak to outside) are pretty much in agreement of what plagues hinduism and hindus. Most of them say the below mentioned issues, I have mentioned and been proposing a society free of things below in my earliers posts here and in other forums as well. I also want to add additional points to this.

1) Refinement of scriptures of hinduism to reflect concept.

We spend too much time worrying about the wordings in hinduism. We think that sanskrit is the only way to say it and the EXACT way to say it too! but then sanskrit is a language (like english, tamil, telugu and so on..), which has words and meanings, so that means we can write it in other languages and make sure it can be enjoyed and understood by anybody and everybody.

Most of the people are purely convinced that the way slokas are said in sanskrit are the only way to go about as in it has some special powers or meanings or purpose that other languages dont!. Which is just plain wrong. If I say 'Karmanye Vadhikarasthey" and you write that in Tamil or English the phonetic pronounciation may be lost, like you could right 'Karmanae or charmanye" and so on... so when you say this reading from a english or tamil text it will surely be lost and wont convey the actual meaning.

When this gets translated, for eg., 'Duty... ' or 'Kadamai' or something it basically conveys the meaning (I am sure gods can understand many languages) and it serves the purpose.

This gives everyone to enjoy and appreciate the slokas and so on...

2) Refine to reflect political correctness.

In this day and age the hindu scripture have reflected a lot of things like varna/jati, with good intention, but bad interpretation, basically subject to interpretation.

for eg., if you take 'Purusha Suktha' it says brahmins came from mouth, kashtriays from arms, .. sudhras from leg, conceptually everything is Purusha, that is the universe is purusha every thing came from purusha, the universe and heaven. So every varna/jati came from purusha. The leg, mouth, arm everything is purusha, The 'Purusha Sukta' verse is a poetic (literary) rendition of the concept of 'Purusha', which is the omni-present/omni-scient reality from whence life was born. But then this leaves room for interpretation that is used by other religions and communities against hinduism. Some of the evangelists use this against hinduism and they say you are from leg and you are a bad person (as if I can choose my mouth over leg and vice versa) according to hinduism (or low person) and the community status also reflects that and they become easy targets for conversion.

The Varna/Jati are attributes and roles of people not a discriminatory tag. It is no worse than saying some one is a laborer and some one is a doctor. Only thing is humans made it permanent due to selfish grounds. Hinduism didn't acknowledge discrimination rather didn't clear it. The whole thing was taken out of context.

It is imperative hindus refine the scripture clearly such that ti doesn't leave room for interpretation.

3) Communicate among people

Hindus should community the best aspects of hinduism among hindus, hindus should be well aware of their own religion. How many of us (being brahmins in the first place) even know some level of vedas, especially the current generation, how many of us know upanishads, brahmanas and so on... It is imperative we communicate all these in simple language to everyone and anyone. Make sure they understand each other. Instead of learning about hinduism (and especially the bad version) of it from some evangelist. Hindus should be able to learn it from us.

Hindus should learn it in our temples (or other places as we see fit). All people should be invited, not just prasangam on some day or something, we should teach, indoctrinate the concepts of hinduism to everyone and anyone (hindu and non-hindu).

If people can understand and appreciate what is in it. It increase their bond and love towards that. Otherwise they are as detached as they can be and it is a easy for others to pull them out from hindu fold. If a person is armed with knowledge and some comes and says in Purshu sukta it is said like this, he will retort it and say "Dont be stupid!, Are you saying your leg is inferior to your mouth or hand, the scritpture is personifying God for a poetic rendition, but God is Omnipresent/omniscient, there is no leg or mouth or something like that" and think what will happen to the evangelist. He wil be shut, has to find new strategy isn't it.

Knowledge is the key to success!. Lack of it you are an easy target!.

4) Removal of meaningless rituals

How many of you believe in rituals in hinduism. There are so many meaningless rituals in hinduism that we follow and those should be removed too. Many of the rituals are not followed now-a-days in the current context. It is not mandatory and doesn't serve any purpose also!.

5) Standardization

The problem in Hinduism is everyone (every comunity/caste) is doing pretty much their own thing. We should standardize hinduism according to its principles and give a common format for prayer/worship/ritual to all hindus. Not that everyone will take it the first day. When we try soon we be successful over a period of time. This also gives room for us to extend this gift of god to others (non-hindus).

This is not very uncommon. The whole reason we have 4 different vedas
is because they re-wrote vedas according to changes! Otherwise why four?. Why different Upanishads, or Brahamanas etc..? Because early hindus re-invented themselves, improved themselves as they see fit in their times. Current hindu is not doing that. Rig Veda and Sama Veda I hear are pretty much similar on conceptual level, rig veda is first, sama veda is a poetic rendition, yajur veda is different than rig and sama etc..

This happens in other religion also. Old Testament is Jewish Religion, Christianity initially followed the old testament and the new testament. But after a while, they removed the old testament from the bible. Not only all the church groups (small and big) around 4 or 5th century AD, got together and agreed on a common wording in bible acceptable to all church groups. If you see there are so many gospels and so many other christians scriptures are left out over a period of time because things changed!.

Adaptability is the key!.

Self-introspection is very much required while analysing the reason for the exodus of people from Hinduism. Avoiding self-introspection and closing our eyes to the facts and reality, will not lead us anywhere.

Let us accept that we need to correct so many things in Hindu society:

*Caste hierarchy

*Untouchability (Still exists: eg. Papapatti, Keeripatti)

* Too much of importance to astrology and related problems

* Dowry

* Gender inequality ( Dont say it is more in Islam - That is not a reason not to correct ourselves)

* Brahmin and upper caste dominance in religious functions ( Why we want to play broker between God and man?)

etc.. etc...

We should have more missions like Sri Ramakrishna Mission.
Sivananda Gurukulam near Tambaram is doing yeoman service to orphaned children!
Sri Satya Sai samiti is doing wonderful social service! With the initiative of Baba, the water problem of Ananthapur district has been tackled to a large extent! A wonderful hospital is functioning in Puttaparthi and Bangalore!

Kanchi Mutt hospitals are doing good service!

But....

this is very less for the huge Hindu population!

Unless we succeed in making the poorest of the poor and the lower-most in the caste hierarchy to feel that they are one among us- we can not think of stopping the conversions!
It can not be achieved by law!

Let us all strive for that!

Shankar

[srkpriv]

Hello! Hello! anybody home!...

[Anbu]

Dear srkpriv, I am trying my best to give you the basics. Have you been reading my musings on the fundamentals of Hinduism?

[RVenkatraman]

Dear All

With the view to share my thoughts and to give a quick reply to Mr. Shankar.

Dear Shankar

I totally agree with your point stating that still many people not only Brahmins (please not this ‘Not only Brahmins’) every person discriminates the person who is below his caste. Of course this has to be dealt with and I would say as this is a separate issue and can be discussed in a separate thread.

Secondly, I would say the efforts now days the mutts and missions (Sri Rama Krishna Mission, Chinmaya mission (of Pujya Sri Chinmayananda) Arsha Vidya Peetam (of swami Dhayananda Saraswathi) and many more…) have done and doing appreciating works on our culture and people upliftment. To my knowledge, Kaanchi Mutt, Arsha Vidhya Peetam and Chinmaya Mission are doing a tremendous service in Nagaland, Megalaya, Manipur (all North East states where ‘Christian evangelism’ is at its peak and Hindus are minorities there already, I will talk about this in later part of this thread) apart from rest of the country.

Swami Chidbhavananda Ashramam in Theni is situated on the banks of river Saraswathi also known as Mullaiyaru or Periyar, The Acharya of the Ashram is Swami Omkarananda, a renowned scholar in Tamil and Sanscript scriptures, addressing vast audiences all over Tamilnadu and disseminating the message of Vedas with out any discrimination.
Note: On absence of Swami Ji, the mutt is taken care by a person who is by birth a non-brahmin but a living example of an attained brahminhood personality, who is well versed in Yajur Veda and Vedaanga and Tamil literature and philosophy.

These are some examples, like this many activities are happening in and around Tamil Nadu and in all parts of India for the upliftment of our community. So to add to Mr. Shankars’ very valid concern, “reforms in our religion- social service and other good work” is indeed needed and it is happening long since, but we need to be watchful on how our social works being done by Hindu organizations are being hidden and twisted with ulterior intentions and our society is still projected as if a barbarian cultured by most of the local and all of the foreign medias.

First let us all have this positive feeling that we are really working hard to keep up our tradition and refine it time to time.J

Now: Coming to the topic. “Christian evangelism & conversion” this is indeed a deep topic to discuss and I appreciate all the members here in this thread for shared their views.

From the words or Sri Arobhindo, Sri Vivekananda and many more great men of Bharatha: “Changing a religion is Changing Nationality” – Friends, this is a very meaningful and deeply concerned statement from our brave men of our time.

Changing a religion is a treat to the National Integrity. So it has to be dealt with not only the interest of our culture but also with the interest of our National Security (Do you know most of the Christians and Muslims wanted the British to be in India and rule, there were not interested in our Freedom? Let this be apart) Once you change religion your faith changes, your custom changes, your reference changes, your language changes, you will try to follow the ideals of the foreign religion, you will listen to what foreign faith tells about your own faith what your ancestors been keeping for generations to generation. Many catastrophic effects can be seen on a nation if it changes its faith, that too in Bharatha! A great Jnana bhoomi! We are seeing it, experiencing it.

1. Chandra sekara reddy (converted Christian) Andara priminister , why should his government is that interested in banning the “Da Vinci Code” to the audience of Andra Pradesh?

2. Why Most of the North East states terrorism for separatism is getting stronger and stronger? Why do they fight to get separated from their Mother land, Bharatha?
As per the 1991 Census Data:
Nagaland: Hindu 10.12, Christian 87.47
Mizoram: Hindu 5.04, Christian 85.73
Meghalaya: Hindu 14.67, Christian 64.58
Manipur: Hindu 57.67, Christian 34.11
[Source: http://www.censusindia.net/stateprofile.html]

See the effect of evangelism; most of these states are in the tight hands of separatist (missionary aided). Is this what we want to be in Bharatha in due course? Say in 200 to 300 years? If we dont stop conversion, the ration of Nagaland would soon been seen in many states!

3. Why in most of the south east countries there is always blood sheds in the name of religion (in Indonesia, Philippines very worst). Becasue their parental
religion and faiths were wiped out and Christianity was planted.

4. Do you know the vision of John Pope II? While he visited our land in November, 1999 He stated: “Just as in the first millennium the Cross was planted on the soil of Europe, and in the second on that of the Americas and Africa, we can pray that in the Third Christian Millennium a great harvest of faith will be reaped in this vast and vital continent.”” – The vast and vital continent he means is Asia and mainly Bharatha, this speech he delivers at New Delhi’s Sacred Heart Cathedral in presence of more than 300 bishops of Asia.

[I am writing (translating in Tamil) a book which compares the Holy Vedas and Holy Bible, in a view to reach masses in TN, as the original book is in English this translated book would give an optimum view to the common people who read and understand only Tamil about what Christianity is all about and what our Vedas is all about and where the real freedom and wisdom lays.]

Anyhow if I list all activities of evangelism, it would be very long. Let me stop here to give room to other to fill in.

So, we cannot assume it is a particular sect’s or group of people’s responsibility to protect our intellectual riches and to protect our country from changing its religion by its fellow men, of the great Bharatha. It is a joint responsibility every one plays a vital role.


For any issue or problem, there must be done two things.
1. Temporary Fix
2. Permanent Solution

1. Temporary Fix: To stop evangelism; tell people who are ignorant enough to change their religion about what other religion is about and what is Sanathana Dharama is all about. Unless the Christianity is exposed to its roots and taking the awareness to people who are prey to the evangelism, this cannot be stopped, I mean not just “crying hoarse” but to get the message to the people who are ignorant.
2. Permanent Solution: Every Hindu should know their religion and its riches in terms of culture, social being, welfare, arts, philosophy etc., should know about the real history of Bharatha, should know about how Bharatha survived despite continuous attacks and loots by Foreigners. This should start from home, parents should first literate themselves on these and pass to their children and make them brave enough to stand as an iron children of the great Bharatha, with full of wisdom and higher ideals.

Finally, it is everyone’s responsibility to make Bharatha to reflect its real meaning; Bharatha means the land where people are happy by pure Knowledge and wisdom!

I am interested in what “srkpriv” mentioned, please let us know about that organization once launched.


RV

[RVenkatraman]

There was no church in the village where I was born until recently. Now there are 3 in the village and a new under construction in nearby area is a real big one
.
All these are because of the conversion strategies by the Christian missionaries.
They change mind by doing simple things. For example, if some one has fallen ill
these group of people either visit patient in the hospital or at home and pray for his recovery. They take free tuition class for poor children and out of the 1 hour tuition more than half is spend in some kind of activities related to Christianity/ jesus.

In my village we have started an org to do some simple service. Our aim is to unite Hindu folks and spread awareness. Some of the activities we are doing are same as what a missionary do but people welcome us and may elder people of all caste are really happy and started supporting us openly.

We are taking social and moral (Hindu values) class for children in the age group 8-12.

Conducted special pooja for the benefit of all 10th and 12th class students. Unlike the normal one where people goto temple and priest tell something in a unknown language ,
we asked every student to write ‘sri rama jayam’ or ‘om muruga’ anything like that on their favorite God. They were also asked to chant OM NAMA SHIVAYA 108 times in chorus. There was a huge mass and good support.

Our guys are frequently visiting the govt hospital in nearby area and just give vibudhi and some prasadam to the patients and talk a few words with them.

Conducting pournami vilaku pooja.

All these simple activities definitely created a impact. Initially it was difficult to involve youngsters in these activities but now they are doing good job, you have to encourage them constantly.

Most of us Irrespective of the education / background criticize many of the practices in Hinduism without any intention to know the truth behind. This affect us badly. None of the information, practices that is told or followed in Hinduism is for time pass. Every single thing whatever it is, has its meaning. We just does not have the patience to learn what it says,

So you are teased by missionaries easily and since you do not have a answer you drop your practice and follow their path.

We are trying our best in teaching children the essence of these practices and the science in Hinduism. These children as questions at their level and try to understand but most of the now youths just call it ‘bull.... ‘ !

Thank you,

"You are doning a great service indeed, i wish i could join hands in any manner to your service - "
RVenkatraman

[silverfox]

Guys:
I am thrilled to be part of this august gang!! (I am using the word 'gang' in an affectionate way!). I have learnt a great deal from all your postings. Please, when you guys use Sanskrit terms, please translate them along side.
Let me share with you what happened when I was returning from Salt Lake City, Utah, (US). As many of you might know, this place is the bastion of the Mormon sect Christianity. At the airport, a couple of women came over and talked to me. They said I looked Indian even though I didn't have an accent! When I told them I was an Indian-American, they excitedly told me that many of them had been to India before and the whole group is going back to India. When I asked them what was the reason they were going, they said it is for missionary work!!
So you can see more and more these people are coming to India to convert people. It is happening in big numbers because of the encouragement of Sonia Gandhi, who is bent on destroying the Hindu Religion. People like Mr. Karunanidhi do not realize this and go along playing all those silly (and dangerous) political games for their own gains.
Even my sister who lives in India tells me that she has been hearing that "we Indians worship too many Gods (false, of course!) and that if we prayed to Jesus, all our problems will be over and we will be ridden of our sins". (I am quoting what she said). Looks like their propaganda is really taking shape and is making an impression on people (Hindus).
By the way, could someone tell me why Mr. Karunanidhi wears that yellow angavastram when he professes to be an atheist and doesn't believe in Hindu tradtiions such as astrology, etc.?

[shankar]

Dear Shri R Venkataraman,

Thank you for your neat analysis on the issue!

What I am again trying to emphasis is that, we should boldly shed all our negative practices and embrace reforms!

In fact, the Brahmins forum should have welcomed when Shri Karunanidhi declared that all qualified people can do puja in temples! We missed that opportunity! Rather I would have been happier if our Acharyas had taken the initiative even before the government! Unfortunately, our acharyas give a picture that they are more concerned about the welfare of only Brahmins at the cost of Hinduism! This is the problem!

When Christian missionaries came to India- the first job they did was to learn the local language and translate all their religious works into the local language! See how many translations of Bible- and in how many languages! They made their religion adopt to the local culture as well! You can see the rituals of Vailankanni matha resembling that of Hindu rituals! Mary matha has been made to look like Maariamma! They allowed local people to become fathers, brothers and priests!
This is where we lack! We insist on Sanskrit! We insist that sanskrit mantras are superior! No christian says bible in Hebrew is holier than bible chanted in Tamil! We fail to make the common Hindu feel at home! Every ritual tries to establish the superiority of Brahmins! In fact it should establish the superiority of God above all of us!
I like Ayyappa Pujas in Tamil nadu because they try to bring equality! No Caste is superior there! Anyone who has undertaken the pilgrimage for more times becomes Guruswami! No need to be a Brahmin! This type of group worship will help in developing brotherhood and equality among all Hindus!

We used to insult our SC/ST brothren! Now Brahmins have stopped it but the other uppercates are doing the same thing to them! The evangelists use this opportunity to attract them!

So, unless we make affirmative positive action, no point in crying hoarse about conversions!

Regards

Shankar

[RVenkatraman]

Dear Shankar

I really appreciate your views and agree almost all. I totally agree with your vision of ‘Samathwam’ treating/feeling and living with every one equally. As already I have mentioned this is a very deep subject which we have taken for our discussion. So deeper we go more will be revealed.

Just infer you own thoughts, and listen to it. What prompts you to concern about giving equality to all, what urged you to condemn the discrimination shown by the so called upper caste people, what prompts you to the concern to keep our religion live long? The same attitude is what keeping our religion living for long despite continuous slashes, bombardments both economically and culturally. No religion/culture would have survived if done at least a quarter of what is been done to our great land and our great religion. Where is Babylonian cult? Egyptian Cult? Great civilizations! Gone!!! But we are still living, that is because of the personified attitude what I can see in you.

Well, I think you need to further analyze about the concept of Church. Do you know in Christianity even after a SC/ST change to their religion, they still are treated like before, didn’t you come across the differentiation like Christian Nadar, Christian Mudhali, Christian SC/ST. This is the problem actually; I would appreciate the Christianity if they really give equality to all but that is not the case. No upper class converted Christian would marry a lower class converted Christian. While selling/marketing their religion they say equality afterwards stills the same discrimination. Do you think a Negro can take the chair position of Vatican City? Huh. Do you know there was controversies about a picture depicting Jesus as a Negro, do you know how many condemns were arisen from Churches and is there any Churches including Churches in Africa did supported? Never! In fact that picture was published after a long research! If you somebody says equality is given if you convert to Christianity that is a humbug. You need to understand Christianity is a business, it is a way well formulated to get hold of the world, the entire humanity. So as to enable the west be always in power and rich. In Africa a citizen once said: “Before they came we had our land and riches, they had Bible, now we have Bible in our hands and our lands and riches in their hands”.

We don’t see our religion as a product to sell it as a commodity accompanied by perks and gifts and with discounts! Like what Churches are doing. If you feel this is the reform is what we should do, then I would say you need to refine you ideology! Read the words of Swami Vivekananda, Sri Arobhindo, Swami Chinmaya, Swami Dyanand Saraswathi, that will give you a good picture and will clear many of your doubts.

Hinduism is full of wisdom, it says what is 'dharma' and it is up to the individual to make a choice, Hinduism is full of choices, you can go to temple or don’t go never mind, can do service, can just do your work, pray any god, but the ultimate message is ‘Samathwam’ ‘Every thing leads to the ultimate reality’. Every ritual is aimed to that only, not to a particular community, you need to put some time in analyzing about our rituals with a view to understand its deeper meanings. A mode of worship might be suitable to one person and the same could be difficult to other, you and me may not do the fire walking or piercing our lips, that requires a particular physical built and guts like wise there are certain things require mental guts, sever practice, penance and ability, it is up to the individual to cultivate and develop things suitable. That is why many difference, and if one tries to adopt others then there would surely be a controversy! Unless the meaning and purpose is well understood.

If your perception says we should boldly shed all our negative practices and embrace reforms do you mean in Brahmin community alone? What are our negative practices and what reforms you mean to say we should embrace; can I assume the following points per your mail?

* Rights to worship and perform Poojas to all people in all temples?
- If you take a statistics of the number of temples in India against the percentage of population of Brahmins (I think Brahmins population is less than 2% of Indian population), drilling down to no of Brahmins who are in to the profession of temple priest, then you would realize in how many temples a Brahmin is a priest. I would say this is quiet obsolete view that only Brahmins are the eligible priest in all temples. Moreover what is the use of an assertion or law which is already in practice? Considering it a new or innovative idea! You may ask or have in mind about temples like Kancheepuram, Madurai Meenakshi, Chidhambharam…and would a non-Brahmin can do Pooja there. First, those temples were constructed by Kings and since their time Families had been given responsibility to undertake Poojas and they are doing it generations together and that is their assigned Duty and bread and butter in one sense.

Who knows in next few centuries no one would be there to continue that chain. Please understand my views are not against non-Brahmin doing Poojas, just to assert that all castes people can be Poojari and it is in practice long since.

Moreover, to my understanding in nowhere it is said in our Shastra regarding a Brahmin priesthood of temples. I have visited many temples, and that is one of my hobby, not only that whenever I visit a temple I would get as much info as possible about that temple. So far I have seen many Siva/Vishnu temples are maintained and Poojas are performed by Veera Saiva, Vellala (Some of the vellala are SC/ST), Konaar (yadava community), Naidus and many other caste people as well. In some temples where I saw Brahmin and other caste Poojari together maintain different sanithis of a shrine.

* Translation or adoption of regional languages in temples as primary language for the performing Pooja?
- This is too already in practice. Tamil is equally rich in singing the glory of the almighty. In almost every Agama Veda Padashala (both Saivam and Vainavam) Tamil Vedam (Thiruvasakam, Thirupugal, Divya prbhandham, Azhwar, Nayanmar composed verses are taught and being used in Poojas daily. There are many scholarly works on Tamil text, translating Sanskrit to Tamil are done by many ‘Andhanars’ (Brahmins).

* Leaving ‘Sanskrit’ (Devnagri) aside?
So your concern is in Temples or in Poojas or in Rituals Sanskrit shouldn’t be used rather the translated version of that can be used, so that it would reach the masses! Great concern! I really appreciate your thoughts, but this same thought provoked many person like you and they became innovative scholars, take ‘Thirukkural’ what it tells in couplets are almost told in Srimad Bhagavat Geetha. If you compare both Thirukural and Srimad Bhagavat Geetha you could realize that, am not concerned about which comes first! Or whether ThirukKural was done with the inspiration of Geetha!J If you take Thiruvachakam, a true philosophical book, Kaivalya Navaneetham and many more Tamil texts just reflect what Vedas, Upanishads revealed. My friend there are count less Tamil works already done. What else you expect? Why a small portion of Sanskrit verses chanted in Temples give you a big concern, there are translated versions of almost every ritual in temple, but do you know who cares to bother about it, I mean even if you tell other caste priest to follow the translated version of such rituals, they are reluctant! Now the point is, in this Kali Yuga, No Pain More Gain! Even in worship!!! Do you know how difficult is to learn all the Tamil texts and recite it in temples, how may Tamil temple poojaris (other caste) are ready to devote their time in learning all of them before they begin their Priest Career despite many saiva peetam are encouraging the same? I would like to quote more on this topic, but considering time and space limit I will try to give some more analysis in Sanskrit later.

I wish our discussion should throw more light.


RV

[silverfox]

Dear Mr. Venkatraman:

A very nice and thought-provoking discussion.

May I ask you to refrain from referring to Black people as 'Negros'? While technically and historically it may be right (in Latin/Spanish, the meaning is black), referring to them by such is considered derogatory and it is an offensive term for a black person. These people would prefer to be called as 'Blacks'. We certainly do not want to insult or hurt the feelings of any ethnic group.

You are absolutely right. Please see the following matrimonial ad in the Hindu paper. This is laughable and hypocrisy at its highest.

"TAMIL BRAHMIN converted Christian 26/160 BE Wrk seeks Prof Quf well settled Brahmin converted Christian groom 08028465273/09980476758 anuforchrist@yahoo.com"

Mr. Venkatraman, I certainly do not possess your knowledge on several issues; however, I thought I was understanding you as I went along reading your piece but then I got lost somewhere!
Could you sum up your thoughts at the end for dumb folks like me?
Thank you.

[Chintana]

Hi Silverfox,

In one of your earlier postings you raised a very important point - that the influence of Sonia Gandhi in India is seen in the growing (almost overpowering) influence of Christianity in India.

Secondly, Karunanidhi started wearing a yellow angavastram because an astrologer predicted that he needs to appease the Sun God to live a longer life! The media never made much of a noise about this when it happened. For that matter, none of Karunanidhi's double standards are ever discussed in the media. He has four marriages (besides several adultrous relationships) and his fourth wife is purported to be a poor Brahmin girl who in 1997 (when I first heard the news) was 18 years of age! The man who gave our family this information said that his friend, a fairly high police official was over-seeing the security arrangements for his new wife.

Karunanidhi's first wife is a Brahmin. And his house in Gopalapuram is constructed right in front of a Ganesha temple where his Brahmin wife is supposed to oversee the temple activities. I don't know about the latter part of the statement but I have personally seen the location of Karunanidhi's house and the temple in front of it.

[Chintana]

This is in response to a most interesting discussion by Shri Shankar and Shri Venkataraman.

My understanding of the exchange is that Shankar basically expressed that Brahmins must be prepared for revivalism/reforms and Venkataraman wants to know what exactly needs to be reformed.

I agree with Shankar's broad argument that Hinduism needs to figure out a way to reach out to more people. It cannot afford to sit cocooned and assume that Lord Narayana or Lord Shiva will take care of everything and everybody. If it is true that God is present in each one of us, S/He is as much present in those who are against Hinduism as in those who are for it. So, bottom line we have to do something so that we may allow God to act through us.

Shri Venkataraman brought out an important point - Hinduism already has all the virtues it requires and more. All that one needs to do is look a little closely so that its myriad colors may be revealed to those who choose to engage with any given level of intensity. Giving rights to all caste members to become priests, translating Sanskrit verses to Tamil for worship and moving away from Sanskrit in general are new features because they are already in practice. (Please correct me if I am wrong - the read had many different points).

The connecting points I see in both postings are two basic questions - What is reform in the context of Hinduism? What is the value of standardization of the teachings of Hinduism?

My take on these two questions - I think reform is most successful when it is self-reflexive - that is - those who want the change must first change themselves. This is exactly what Gandhi said and did - we must ask for independence after we have shown the British that we deserve it. That's why he had all those talks on cleanliness and health and good ways of living.

So what needs to be changed about the community? - That's actually a point for discussion.

Secondly - standardizing Hinduism. I feel this is somewhat tricky because the basic tenet of Hinduism is that it is a personal religion. Its charm is that it will appeal to anybody at any level - it can engage the most serious of philosophers at the same time it is tolerant of the most vicious of atheists. When one is born into Hinduism there are no 'non-Hindu' ways of doing things. But Christianity has 'unChristian' ways of being and behaving.

While all of this is a great plus for Hinduism it also demands that people make the effort to go and seek the 'Truth' for themselves. In other words all of the precious wisdom is available only to those who'd take the trouble to go and look for it. And that's perhaps the best way to search for the Self/God/Soul Liberation.

But that is somewhat problematic in today's context because of mass media. Everywhere we are bombarded with images and messages of what to think about - about what is cool, what is not, what to do, what not to do, who are the good people, the bad people etc. In an environment that claims our attention in every way conceivable is it wise to let Hinduism sit pretty on a silent pedestal?

To me, the answer is we need a consensus on what needs to be communicated to different kinds of audiences. And we need a communication strategy. That is a great idea on paper - but we would need an organized body of individuals who are interested in doing this work and take care to ensure they don't get embroiled in the muck of politics.

It can begin small. If it has to grow larger so be it. But I agree with Shankar in that Hinduism needs a plan to reach out to people. And I agree with Venkataraman in that we need to ensure that some of the more esoteric aspects of the religion are reserved for true seekers while other, more easily understandable aspects are available for clarification and communication.

Hope this invites more suggestions and thoughts.

[Chintana]

In one of the paragraphs I posted above the line should read thus:

"Giving rights to all caste members to become priests, translating Sanskrit verses to Tamil for worship and moving away from Sanskrit in general are NOT new features because they are already in practice. (Please correct me if I am wrong - the read had many different points)."

[silverfox]

Dear Chintana:

wow! Very good gossip on Mr. Karunanidhi!! I loved it!! I always wanted to know why all of a sudden he abandoned his usual black angavastram and went for the yellow. So... the guy had a method for his madness, eh?
Also, these guys bad-mouth Brahmins every opportunity they get, yet they would love to marry a Brahmin girl at the drop of a hat!!

[silverfox]

Dear Chintana:

I just read your thoughts and comments in response to discussions by Shri Shankar and Shri Venkataraman.
A very well though-out and cogent piece. Why didn't I think of it first?!!
I wish I could write like you did!

[Chintana]

Dear Silverfox,

Yes, there is absolutely a method in this madness. You know what really gets me? Its not the vilification of Brahmins per se - it is an explicit denounciation of them in public and a private association with them, making use of their brains, talents and culture WITHOUT giving them enough credit. This leads to the sapping of enthusiasm amongst Brahmins and I feel this is largely the reason that even some of the better adherents feel a little lost about their culture.



Dear Chintana:

wow! Very good gossip on Mr. Karunanidhi!! I loved it!! I always wanted to know why all of a sudden he abandoned his usual black angavastram and went for the yellow. So... the guy had a method for his madness, eh?
Also, these guys bad-mouth Brahmins every opportunity they get, yet they would love to marry a Brahmin girl at the drop of a hat!!

[Chintana]

Dear Silverfox,

Thank you. I feel encouraged and strangely that makes me feel humble.

I have walked about several of these ideas in my head and heart for a long time. I didn't find a way to give it shape. This sharing has introduced me to a community. I still have to figure out how to make some of these concerns an active part of my life.

It is one thing for us to recognize that we need to correct our flaws but it is quite another to engage in the celebration of its beauty. I hope to do the latter in some way (I dont know how) for which I need to engage with the former in some way (I dont know about this too).

But thanks for your encouragement.


Dear Chintana:

I just read your thoughts and comments in response to discussions by Shri Shankar and Shri Venkataraman.
A very well though-out and cogent piece. Why didn't I think of it first?!!
I wish I could write like you did!

[RVenkatraman]

Dear Friends

I couldnt resist me from sharing what is happening, with the very current info. Due to the space constraint to update files. I am sharing a mail id which has the following document (Tamil Weekly Document) in PDF format. Please pay some time in reading this. Then you will realize how fast and vigourously the Churches are catching up their part in conversion and how people are getting affected.

please login mail.yahoo.com
User ID: vidhya_venkatraman@yahoo.co.uk
Password: password
Subject: The true intensions ... (http://uk.f261.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=6384_596024_1318_1738_190167_0_12 _252138_1887711872&Idx=0&YY=42583&inc=25&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox)with attached PDF.

RV

[RVenkatraman]

Must read article:
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/jun/15franc.htm

Besides, thanks to silverfox. I will use Black instead of Neg... Apologies if what i meant hurt anyones' feeling!

RV

[silverfox]

Dear Mr. Venkatraman:
Thank you for allowing us to get into that yahoo email and read the article. I had difficulty in reading the Tamil especially in a colloquial language. As you know, I have forgotten the vocabulary and so it becomes difficult. But isnt this about some guy getting ripped off than a real missionary building churches? Or, as usual, did I miss big?

Speaking of Nigerians, those guys are in the big league for ripping people off. You should see the emails I get! The theme is always the same - the guy is Mr. so-and-so and he is an official in the Nigerian Government or a bank. Somebody died and left big sums of money and there are no heirs. So he says to claim the email recipient as heir and he will share the money with that person.
I am writing this so that people who have not been exposed will be careful.

[silverfox]

Dear Friends:

An American friend of mine sent me this link:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm

Very interesting article on Mohammad.

[KAUNDINYA]

Some people who live in foreign countries don't know what is happening in India. a) The Kanchi Mutt is doing yeoman service to society at large & Harijans in particular. Sri Jayendra Saraswati often visits slums of Dalits & helps them a lot. In his native village of IRULNEEKKI, Sri Jayendra has built & given concrete houses to 32 harijans. One VISWANATHA KAKKAN, an advocate & a younger brother of late KAKKAN. a harijan minister under Kamaraj is all praise for Sri Jayendra. Viswanatha Kakkan says that the Acharya, on his (Kakkan's) recommendation has helped hundreds of harijan brides with gold for thaali, koorai pudavai, cash, etc., for their wedding. The Kanchi Mutt is running several educational institutions. Sri Jayendra is also running the Sankara Nethralaya of Madras & also the Sankara Nethralaya of GUWAHATI which is the only one of its kind in the whole of North-East India. In fact, Sri Jayendrar has incurred the displeasure of many Brahmins because he has thrown the doors of the Kanchi Mutt open to the harijans.
b) The R.S.S., Vishwa Hindu Parishad & Hindu Munnani have done yeoman service for the uplift of Adivaasis & Harijans, to prevent them from going over to Christianity & also to reconvert Christian Aadivaasis to hinduism. One can learn about these activities from the websites of the RSS, VHP & ORGANISER, the weekly magazine of the RSS. The RSS & THE VHP are running schools, hospitals, etc., in Adivaasi areas of all states including Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Chhatteesgarh. Bihar, Jharkhand & the North-Eastern states like Nagaland. Mizoram, Assam, Meghalaya, Tripura, Arunachal Pradesh, etc. The Arya Samaj is also doing very good work for the Harijans & Aadivaasis. :bathbaby: :bathbaby:

[KAUNDINYA]

Hi Silverfox,

In one of your earlier postings you raised a very important point - that the influence of Sonia Gandhi in India is seen in the growing (almost overpowering) influence of Christianity in India.

Secondly, Karunanidhi started wearing a yellow angavastram because an astrologer predicted that he needs to appease the Sun God to live a longer life! The media never made much of a noise about this when it happened. For that matter, none of Karunanidhi's double standards are ever discussed in the media. He has four marriages (besides several adultrous relationships) and his fourth wife is purported to be a poor Brahmin girl who in 1997 (when I first heard the news) was 18 years of age! The man who gave our family this information said that his friend, a fairly high police official was over-seeing the security arrangements for his new wife.


Karunanidhi's first wife is a Brahmin. And his house in Gopalapuram is constructed right in front of a Ganesha temple where his Brahmin wife is supposed to oversee the temple activities. I don't know about the latter part of the statement but I have personally seen the location of Karunanidhi's house and the temple in front of it.

REPLY: Mr.KARUNANIDHI belongs to the ISAI VELALAR community to which community Carnatic musician M.S.SUBBULAKSHMI also belonged. Of course her husband Kalki Sadasivam was a Brahmin. Karunanidhi's first wife was also an Isai Vellalar & she is no more. Her son is Mu.Ka.Muthu. Karunanidhi's second wife DAYAALU also belongs to his community & she is the mother of M.K.Stalin, M.K.Azhagiri and so on. The temple near MK's house is NOT A GANESA temple but is a Vishnu temple. MK's third wife is DHARMA alias RAJATHI AMMAL who is a TIRUNELVELI NAADAAR. Her only daughter is KANIMOZHI. As far as I know NONE OF MK'S WIVES IS A BRAHMIN.:flypig:

[kudumi]

Hi all,

From my understanding, its more a question of altering the perception based on the individual needs or collective needs.
For example,

1. Give money to poor people and buying them out.
2. Go to a last minute exam crammer, and pray for his success
3. Go to an intellectual, and brainwash him
4. Go to the mentally depressed and tweak the settings.
5. Go to a hospital and pray for the sick etc etc..

Its like they have custom made solution to all the problems. And its more related to stating focussed, united and planned.

We fail in most of these aspects. A single post is not sufficient, but I will keep writing what I feel about this issue.
I used to subscribe to one magazine published by vivekananda center in kanaykumari, and I am afraid I have lost the complete details of the magazine from my memory. In that magazine, they clearly exposed the various strategies.

With regards,
Jai

[silverfox]

Dear Kudumi:
You completely lost me. Whom are you referring to? Who is doing the things that you have listed? I don't see anything wrong with #5.
Thank you.

Hi all,

From my understanding, its more a question of altering the perception based on the individual needs or collective needs.
For example,

1. Give money to poor people and buying them out.
2. Go to a last minute exam crammer, and pray for his success
3. Go to an intellectual, and brainwash him
4. Go to the mentally depressed and tweak the settings.
5. Go to a hospital and pray for the sick etc etc..

Its like they have custom made solution to all the problems. And its more related to stating focussed, united and planned.

We fail in most of these aspects. A single post is not sufficient, but I will keep writing what I feel about this issue.
I used to subscribe to one magazine published by vivekananda center in kanaykumari, and I am afraid I have lost the complete details of the magazine from my memory. In that magazine, they clearly exposed the various strategies.

With regards,
Jai

[silverfox]

Dear Kaudinya:

I infer you are referring to someone like me, from your statement "people living in foreign countries'. It is true; I have lost touch with India on many aspects. That is why I am so interested in learning all I can. Thank you for educating me.
Well, it is gratifying to note all the good things that His Holiness Sankaracharya is doing for the dalits. However, how come these things are not published in the mainstream media?

And.... thank you for the tidbits on Mr. Karunanidhi. Not that we care if Mr. K has married a Brahmin or not; nevertheless, a good gossip is always a nice diversion!!:bounce:

Some people who live in foreign countries don't know what is happening in India. a) The Kanchi Mutt is doing yeoman service to society at large & Harijans in particular. Sri Jayendra Saraswati often visits slums of Dalits & helps them a lot. In his native village of IRULNEEKKI, Sri Jayendra has built & given concrete houses to 32 harijans. One VISWANATHA KAKKAN, an advocate & a younger brother of late KAKKAN. a harijan minister under Kamaraj is all praise for Sri Jayendra. Viswanatha Kakkan says that the Acharya, on his (Kakkan's) recommendation has helped hundreds of harijan brides with gold for thaali, koorai pudavai, cash, etc., for their wedding. The Kanchi Mutt is running several educational institutions. Sri Jayendra is also running the Sankara Nethralaya of Madras & also the Sankara Nethralaya of GUWAHATI which is the only one of its kind in the whole of North-East India. In fact, Sri Jayendrar has incurred the displeasure of many Brahmins because he has thrown the doors of the Kanchi Mutt open to the harijans.
b) The R.S.S., Vishwa Hindu Parishad & Hindu Munnani have done yeoman service for the uplift of Adivaasis & Harijans, to prevent them from going over to Christianity & also to reconvert Christian Aadivaasis to hinduism. One can learn about these activities from the websites of the RSS, VHP & ORGANISER, the weekly magazine of the RSS. The RSS & THE VHP are running schools, hospitals, etc., in Adivaasi areas of all states including Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Chhatteesgarh. Bihar, Jharkhand & the North-Eastern states like Nagaland. Mizoram, Assam, Meghalaya, Tripura, Arunachal Pradesh, etc. The Arya Samaj is also doing very good work for the Harijans & Aadivaasis. :bathbaby: :bathbaby:

[kudumi]

Hello Silverfox,

I did not refer to any one in particular. My apologies if my posting has hurt anyone in this forum.
Its the evangelists I am talkig about.....or did I post the message in a wrong thread.....?
There is nothing wrong in praying for the sick. But the real motive is harvesting the souls. If the person recovers he is obviously indebted for all the prayers and love and affection and service, and hence start thinking about the good samaritans. If the sick dies, the soul is harvested at the moment of death.....and his family is convinced that he is playing in the kingdom of god.

With regards,
Jai

[silverfox]

Dear Kudumi:
Yes, you are mixing up my responses to your postings on two different issues - 1. good things that the Acharya is doing, 2. Christian Missionaries.

I understand about praying for the sick; what you are saying is that they have an ulterior motive for this.
Thanks

[Chintana]

Dear Silverfox:

I just read some of the postings on this site and have reasons to believe that it may not be authentic. For example the piece on Mohammed was quite skewed. I find it hard to believe that Prophets of any religion are devious. If Mohammed was indeed as bad as this person portrays him to be it is hard to accept that such a person can be the bearer of Divine Revelations.

Also I disagree that Muslim/Islamic culture knows no art. One does not have to go very far to check this. If you take North Indian culture - the Ghazals are part of the Islamic tradition. Kathak is part of Islamic tradition - playing the tabla and the Shenoy, the list is endless.

Muslims were kings in India for a good period of time. They did a lot of violent things but they also expressed that they could show a culture rich in literature, music and dance.

I dont know Urdu but I have heard is spoken. It sounds so rich and lyrical. So I cannot buy the argument that the Muslims know no culture.

Its like saying that Hindus know no culture because there are some sects that take to violence.




Dear Friends:

An American friend of mine sent me this link:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm

Very interesting article on Mohammad.

[Chintana]

Thank you for this Kaundinya. This only goes to show that information is a crucial factor in dispelling doubts.

I have heard several people say that Karunanidhi belongs to the Barber community.

About some of his wives being Brahmins - in fact there are stories that Anbazahagan and the likes kidnapped and raped Brahmin girls in order to marry them. They wanted that culture/blood in their families. Of course this again is heresay. Thanks for clearing up the caste part. Of course I will check with others I know.

I do know that part about his fourth wife - it was a hush-hush affair. Like I said a senior police officer was sent to oversee the security arrangements for the new wife's bungalow in Adayar. In fact astrologers prescribed that he marry this person so that his life may be prolonged.

I know the part about M S Subbalakshmi and Sadasivam Iyer.

But thank you for clearing up that the temple in front of his house is a Vishnu temple and not a Ganesha temple. Although I have driven past that road several times I could never get a closer look because the security was so tight. There was a time I asked someone standing outside what temple it was and I remember the answer to be Ganesha temple. But perhaps you are right.


REPLY: KARUNANIDHI belongs to the Devadasi community (also known as ISAI VELALAR community) to which community Carnatic musician M.S.SUBBULAKSHMI also belonged. Of course her husband Kalki Sadasivam was a Brahmin. Karunanidhi's first wife was also a devadasi & she is no more. Her son is Mu.Ka.Muthu. Karunanidhi's second wife DAYAALU also belongs to his community & she is the mother of M.K.Stalin, M.K.Azhagiri and so on. The temple near MK's house is NOT A GANESA temple but is a Vishnu temple. MK's third wife is DHARMA alias RAJATHI AMMAL who is a TIRUNELVELI NAADAAR. Her only daughter is KANIMOZHI. As far as I know NONE OF MK'S WIVES IS A BRAHMIN. But he might have had affairs with Brahmin actresses.:flypig:

[silverfox]

Chintana
[I do know that part about his fourth wife - it was a hush-hush affair. Like I said a senior police officer was sent to oversee the security arrangements for the new wife's bungalow in Adayar. In fact astrologers prescribed that he marry this person so that his life may be prolonged.]


I am a sucker for these kinds of gossip! Been away for too long from India!
This guy marrying a very young woman to prolong his life (I wonder how so) reminds me of a Hollywood B film 'Trouble in China Town' where an old geezer (supposed to be over 500 years) tries to force-marry a young woman (Kim Kattral - now popular in 'Sex and the City') so he would become young!!!!
Anyway, my two cents' worth of some gossip!!

[silverfox]

Dear Silverfox:

I just read some of the postings on this site and have reasons to believe that it may not be authentic. For example the piece on Mohammed was quite skewed. I find it hard to believe that Prophets of any religion are devious. If Mohammed was indeed as bad as this person portrays him to be it is hard to accept that such a person can be the bearer of Divine Revelations.

Also I disagree that Muslim/Islamic culture knows no art. One does not have to go very far to check this. If you take North Indian culture - the Ghazals are part of the Islamic tradition. Kathak is part of Islamic tradition - playing the tabla and the Shenoy, the list is endless.

Muslims were kings in India for a good period of time. They did a lot of violent things but they also expressed that they could show a culture rich in literature, music and dance.

I dont know Urdu but I have heard is spoken. It sounds so rich and lyrical. So I cannot buy the argument that the Muslims know no culture.

Its like saying that Hindus know no culture because there are some sects that take to violence.
Dear Chintana:
I appreciate your points. I checked with my friend and he says that the article was based on historic facts. By the way, I have corrobated this with other sources also about the life of Mohammad. Besides, how do we know for sure that this man actually received divine revelations? I say this with no malice in my heart towards Islam or Mohammad.

I am not sure if that article said that Islamic culture knew no art. The Arabs were also great mathematicians and astronomy but I believe they came after Mohammad's period. I spoke Urdu like a native when I used to live in Lucknow and hung out with Muslims there. (I also spoke Italian, Russian and Japanse - a little braggin here!!) Yes, Urdu (or Urduized Hindi) is flowery and extremely cordial and polite. But remember, the Moghul kings who ruled India did not speak Urdu but Farsi (the correct pronunciation is Parsi (Persian) but Arab language doesn't have 'P' and so they mispronounced it as 'F'). Akbar's court language was Persian.
Yes, the Moghuls had some culture but it came from the Iranian (ethnically related to us) side and not from the Arab side. Of course, I have a disclaimer: I am telling you these based on my recollection. In order to be accurate, I need to go back and do research.

Overall, I have to agree with that article. Based on what I see going on and historically speaking, I believe that religion was and still is violent. The recent bombing in Mumbai is an example. I dont believe other religious fanatics bomb and kill innocent civilians. If you want to know how barbaric the Moghuls were, just ask any Sikh about the history of the Sikh Gurus and how many of them have been simply tortured and killed by these Moghul Kings. Please go to these links:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html (http://www.flex.com/%7Ejai/satyamevajayate/index.html)

http://www.bibleprobe.com/mohammed.htm

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/mohammad1.html

[silverfox]

Chintana, Kaundinya, Sri Anbu, Sri Venkatraman:
I have been wanting to talk about Smt. MS Subbulakshmi. I would like to point out that though MS belonged to a 'devadasi' community, look what she has achieved! Every time I listen to her music/Bhajans, I always admire how beautiful her Sanksrit was and her diction; she pronounced them perfectly. This goes to prove that anybody can become a Brahmin by deeds. Just because we are born Brahmin, doesn't make us 'Brahmins' in the true sense of the word.
Am I right?

[Chintana]

Thank you for clearing this up Silverfox. I stand educated.

Dear Chintana:
I appreciate your points. I checked with my friend and he says that the article was based on historic facts. By the way, I have corrobated this with other sources also about the life of Mohammad. Besides, how do we know for sure that this man actually received divine revelations? I say this with no malice in my heart towards Islam or Mohammad.

I am not sure if that article said that Islamic culture knew no art. The Arabs were also great mathematicians and astronomy but I believe they came after Mohammad's period. I spoke Urdu like a native when I used to live in Lucknow and hung out with Muslims there. (I also spoke Italian, Russian and Japanse - a little braggin here!!) Yes, Urdu (or Urduized Hindi) is flowery and extremely cordial and polite. But remember, the Moghul kings who ruled India did not speak Urdu but Farsi (the correct pronunciation is Parsi (Persian) but Arab language doesn't have 'P' and so they mispronounced it as 'F'). Akbar's court language was Persian.
Yes, the Moghuls had some culture but it came from the Iranian (ethnically related to us) side and not from the Arab side. Of course, I have a disclaimer: I am telling you these based on my recollection. In order to be accurate, I need to go back and do research.

Overall, I have to agree with that article. Based on what I see going on and historically speaking, I believe that religion was and still is violent. The recent bombing in Mumbai is an example. I dont believe other religious fanatics bomb and kill innocent civilians. If you want to know how barbaric the Moghuls were, just ask any Sikh about the history of the Sikh Gurus and how many of them have been simply tortured and killed by these Moghul Kings. Please go to these links:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html (http://www.flex.com/%7Ejai/satyamevajayate/index.html)

http://www.bibleprobe.com/mohammed.htm

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/mohammad1.html

[Anbu]

M.S. Subbalakshmi's parents are Subramanya Iyer and Veena Vidushi Shanmukavadivu, a renowned singer and player of the veena.

[Chintana]

Oh! Absolutely. No malice from my part toward MS.

Also I feel that her life is a case where Brahmins have actually included her in their fold.

Although her induction into the community has always been an exception I've always had respect for her as a person who could stand up to the scrutiny of the community and hold her own. Hats off to her.

I wish more people would earn their place in society by merit as displayed by MS rather than ride the silly concessions given by Reservation Policy.



Chintana, Kaundinya, Sri Anbu, Sri Venkatraman:
I have been wanting to talk about Smt. MS Subbulakshmi. I would like to point out that though MS belonged to a 'devadasi' community, look what she has achieved! Every time I listen to her music/Bhajans, I always admire how beautiful her Sanksrit was and her diction; she pronounced them perfectly. This goes to prove that anybody can become a Brahmin by deeds. Just because we are born Brahmin, doesn't make us 'Brahmins' in the true sense of the word.
Am I right?

[rxrajamo]

I saw this disturbing news on the net and wanted to bring it to the attention of forum members to see how bold and active Chritisan Evangelists are.

http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2006/06/christian-evangelism-in-thirumala.html

[Chintana]

URL not found. Could you copy and paste please?

I saw this disturbing news on the net and wanted to bring it to the attention of forum members to see how bold and active Chritisan Evangelists are.

http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2006/06/christian-evangelism-in-thirumala.html

[silverfox]

URL not found. Could you copy and paste please?
Dear Chintana:
I am able to click on that link. Copy the URL and paste it. The article is too big to copy and paste here.
Try again. Sometimes, if the server (where this article is) is busy, your server may not wait a bit and comes back saying 'page not found'.!

[Chintana]

No luck I'm afraid.

But that's alright. I am sure I will have an opportunity to read many others.

Dear Chintana:
I am able to click on that link. Copy the URL and paste it. The article is too big to copy and paste here.
Try again. Sometimes, if the server (where this article is) is busy, your server may not wait a bit and comes back saying 'page not found'.!

[rxrajamo]

Chintana

Can you please try this ?

http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2006/06/christian-evangelism-in-thirumala.html

[Chintana]

Dear Rxrajamo,

Thank you for this link. It opened fine and I was able to read it.

Conversion is quite a problem indeed. The way to combat it, atleast in my view is to match the communication efforts of the Christians. Christianity has a way of reaching out to people and this has what has won so many followers, not because it is inherently superior to other religions.

As I mentioned a long time, in one of my very first posts one big part of what we should do is to forumulate a communication strategy.



Chintana

Can you please try this ?

http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2006/06/christian-evangelism-in-thirumala.html

[NARAS]

that is right. but look at the preset situation in tamilnadu. the chief minister arranges for ayurvedic treatment for terrorist madhani out of tax payers funds just to get muslim votes. he ignores lakhs of people affected by chicken guinea. he erects statue of kannagi from tax payers money just to show that he is the only saviour of tamils. he erects Dr. sivaji's statue- whom once he expelled from dmk for going to tirupati temple- out of ax payers money to get thevar caste vote. he names a scheme after later great kamaraj to appease the congressmen and the nadars. he says he does not believe in vaasthu.vaasthu is a mathemitical science. you either know or dont know about scince. how can you 'believe' or 'not believe' mathemetical science?

[silverfox]

Hi Suresh:

How come the people of Tamil Nadu are not objecting to Mr. Karunanidhi misusing public money for his own causes - more so for a terrorist? What is the media doing? Don't they have a watchdog to expose these?

Who is this guy Madhani and why is he a terrorist? Is he in prison? What is Mr. K's reason to provide ayurvedic treatment to this man?
Are your charges based on rumor or proven ones?

[Chintana]

Dear Suresh,

All the more reason to formulate a good communication strategy. In fact the points you brought up can be incorporated into a coherent argument and presented. The trouble is not that we dont know what is happening but that we have lacked a way to organize ourselves.

that is right. but look at the preset situation in tamilnadu. the chief minister arranges for ayurvedic treatment for terrorist madhani out of tax payers funds just to get muslim votes. he ignores lakhs of people affected by chicken guinea. he erects statue of kannagi from tax payers money just to show that he is the only saviour of tamils. he erects Dr. sivaji's statue- whom once he expelled from dmk for going to tirupati temple- out of ax payers money to get thevar caste vote. he names a scheme after later great kamaraj to appease the congressmen and the nadars. he says he does not believe in vaasthu.vaasthu is a mathemitical science. you either know or dont know about scince. how can you 'believe' or 'not believe' mathemetical science?

[Chintana]

Dear Silverfox,

In my understanding people usually do not raise a protest especially in TN because they are afraid. They don't know what will happen to their lives and children if they say something against the policies of the Govt.

Hi Suresh:

How come the people of Tamil Nadu are not objecting to Mr. Karunanidhi misusing public money for his own causes - more so for a terrorist? What is the media doing? Don't they have a watchdog to expose these?

Who is this guy Madhani and why is he a terrorist? Is he in prison? What is Mr. K's reason to provide ayurvedic treatment to this man?
Are your charges based on rumor or proven ones?

[NARAS]

Dear Silverfox,

MADHANI WAS A TERRORIST INVOLVED INTHE COIMBATORE BOMB BLASTS OF 1998 TO KILL Mr. ADVANI. MANY INNOCENTS LOST THEIR LIVES INTHAT BLAST. MADHANI HAS BEEN REFUSED BAIL MANY TIMES BY SUPREME COURT. THE PREVIOUS ADMK GOVT.ARGUED AGAINST HIS RELEASE.BUT THE PRESENT CM WHO RECNTLY CALLED ARYANS AS SNAKES SURPRISINGLY DOES NOT SEEM TO CONSIDER MADHANI IN THE SAME WAY. RECENTLY THE PRESENT CM PROUDLY SAID IN THE ASSEMBLY THAT HIS GOVT WAS A 4TH RATED(I.E. SUDRAS) GOVT. BUT I THINK THIS NOT 4TH RATED BUT A 420 GOVT BECAUSE IT IS HELPING A TERRORIST.

[NARAS]

The Present Cm Of T.nadu Whilst Opening Kannagi Statue At Marina Beach Said That The Statue Is A Symbol Of Tamil Pride. This Statue Was Made Only In 1968. Does That Mean That There Was Not Pride For Tamils Before 1968? The Cm Also Abused Ananda Vikatan Magazine For Not Supporting His Views On Kannagi. The Vikatan Group Has Contracts Worth Crores Of Ruppes With The Suntv Of The Cm's Family. Will The Contract Be Cancelled Now As A Punishment For Vikantan's Anti-kannagi Stance Or Is Everything A Drama

[rxrajamo]

Well, let us not forget the fact that the Kerala assembly passed a resolution requesting Madhani's release. All the parties except BJP supported the resolution. The political parties would not think twice to mortgage nation's interest if it would get them a few votes. But, we can look at it positively. What this tells us is that if we can organize ourselves as a pressure group we can very well get what we want from the politicians. All we have to show is solidarity. Unfortunately that is what we are lacking. Look at how many forum members we have and see how few are active in the forums. It is very disappointing. Many members are not coming forward to express their views which is not good. Unless we shed all inhibitions and stand united we will go nowhere. My 2 cents.

[silverfox]

another thing its being said that aryns invaded india and chased dravidians away from north to south.as far as everybody knows the aryans were nd are orthodox vegearians. the dravidians were and are die hard non vegetarians. would it have been possible for a few vegetarian to chase so many non vegatarians? its like saying 4 yrd old boy raped a 20 yrd old lady.

Sorry, Suresh, I dont believe the Aryans were vegetarians!! First of all, no one even knows for sure if such a group existed or if it was a figment of the European imagination. If it were true, then history says that these Aryans were horse-riding nomads and there was no proof that they were vegetarians!! Perhaps you were brainwashed into thinking that Aryans are Brahmins!! We all did when we were growing up; now we know better. The irony is that Mr. Karunanidhi and his ilk are completely ignorant of the Indian history; I doubt if they picked up books on anthropology written by eminent scholars.

If you want to read more on this, please browse thru the following: There are quite a few books written by anthropologists.

Demise of Aryan Invasion Theory
By Dr. Dinesh Agarwal
www.cs.man.ac.uk/~pateld/aryan_dir/vias_home/demise.html (http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/%7Epateld/aryan_dir/vias_home/demise.html).
2. Myth of the Aryan Invasion of India
By David Frawley
www.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Veda/myth-of-invasion.html (http://www.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Veda/myth-of-invasion.html).

Let me quote one paragraph from "THe myth of the Aryan Invasion" by Swami B.V. Giri:
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/aryan-invasion.html


What is an ‘Aryan’?
The Sanskrit word ‘Aryan’ refers to one who is righteous and noble. It is also used in the context of addressing a gentleman (Arya-putra, Aryakanya etc).6 Nowhere in the Vedic literature is the word used to denote race or language. This was a concoction by Max Mueller who, in 1853, introduced the word ‘Arya’ into the English language as referring a particular race and language. He did this in order to give credibility to his Aryan race theory (see Part 2 (http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/india-indology.html)). However in 1888, when challenged by other eminent scholars and historians, Mueller could see that his reputation was in jeopardy and made the following statement, thus refuting his own theory - "I have declared again and again that if I say Aryas, I mean neither blood nor bones, nor hair, nor skull; I mean simply those who speak an Aryan language...to me an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar."
(Max Mueller, Biographies of Words and the Home of the Aryas, 1888, pg 120) But the dye had already been cast! Political and Nationalist groups in Germany and France exploited this racial phenomenon to propagate the supremacy of an assumed Aryan race of white people. Later, Adolf Hitler used this ideology to the extreme for his political hegemony and his barbaric crusade to terrorize Jews, Slavs and other racial minorities, culminating in the holocaust of millions of innocent people.

[Anbu]

You are perfectly right Siverfox! Aryan Dravidian divide suits Karunanidhi and he is still milking on it. Perhaps he very well knows that it is a big BS but would keep lying to the people for ever.

[rxrajamo]

Well put Silverfox. The politicians who spread hate do not base their rantings on hard facts; but on imaginary divisions of people and preaching US vs THEM.

Sorry, Suresh, I dont believe the Aryans were vegetarians!! First of all, no one even knows for sure if such a group existed or if it was a figment of the European imagination. If it were true, then history says that these Aryans were horse-riding nomads and there was no proof that they were vegetarians!! Perhaps you were brainwashed into thinking that Aryans are Brahmins!! We all did when we were growing up; now we know better. The irony is that Mr. Karunanidhi and his ilk are completely ignorant of the Indian history; I doubt if they picked up books on anthropology written by eminent scholars.

If you want to read more on this, please browse thru the following: There are quite a few books written by anthropologists.

Demise of Aryan Invasion Theory
By Dr. Dinesh Agarwal
www.cs.man.ac.uk/~pateld/aryan_dir/vias_home/demise.html (http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/%7Epateld/aryan_dir/vias_home/demise.html).
2. Myth of the Aryan Invasion of India
By David Frawley
www.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Veda/myth-of-invasion.html (http://www.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Veda/myth-of-invasion.html).

Let me quote one paragraph from "THe myth of the Aryan Invasion" by Swami B.V. Giri:
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/aryan-invasion.html


What is an ‘Aryan’?
The Sanskrit word ‘Aryan’ refers to one who is righteous and noble. It is also used in the context of addressing a gentleman (Arya-putra, Aryakanya etc).6 Nowhere in the Vedic literature is the word used to denote race or language. This was a concoction by Max Mueller who, in 1853, introduced the word ‘Arya’ into the English language as referring a particular race and language. He did this in order to give credibility to his Aryan race theory (see Part 2 (http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/india-indology.html)). However in 1888, when challenged by other eminent scholars and historians, Mueller could see that his reputation was in jeopardy and made the following statement, thus refuting his own theory -"I have declared again and again that if I say Aryas, I mean neither blood nor bones, nor hair, nor skull; I mean simply those who speak an Aryan language...to me an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar."
(Max Mueller, Biographies of Words and the Home of the Aryas, 1888, pg 120) But the dye had already been cast! Political and Nationalist groups in Germany and France exploited this racial phenomenon to propagate the supremacy of an assumed Aryan race of white people. Later, Adolf Hitler used this ideology to the extreme for his political hegemony and his barbaric crusade to terrorize Jews, Slavs and other racial minorities, culminating in the holocaust of millions of innocent people.

[Rookiie]

Folks

This is a wonderful blog on Christianity and Conversion

You can see how aggressive churchianity has extended its vicious tentacles even into one of the most sacred and spiritual sites of the Hindus.

http://conversionagenda.blogspot.com/ (http://conversionagenda.blogspot.com/)

[silverfox]

Hi Rookiie
A great link to go to and read different articles on the subject. You learn something every day!! Thanks!

[NARAS]

hi silverfox and all of you! mahatma gandhi inhis book'my experiments with truth' has clearly said that untouchability came into existence mainly because brahmins discovered that non vegetaranism was a sin. so they considered meat eaters as untouchables. if you eat meat , even if you r a brahmin you r untouchable. gandhiji, unlike nehru does not subscribe to aryan invasion theory . he does not even mention about it.

i find it difficult believe that brahmins eat meat, port etc.-even in u.s. in any case if you consume meat you cannot say you continue to a brahmin.its like saying a vegetarian eats meat?!how can you be a vegetarian if you eat meat? similarly you cannot be a brahmin if you start consuming meat- this is what the hindu scriptures say. you hve mentioned about positive points of egg. not negative points, what about that. even cigaratte smoking is a man's personal choice. if a govt were to sponsor smoking, will it not be funny? the tn govt sponsoring drinking, egg eating is really funny to say the least.the hindu religion, indianconstitution do not consider meat eating, drinking as personal choices alone of individuals. there r many restrictions, discouragements for meat eaters, drinkers in hindu scriptures, indian constitution.

bharat mata ki jai!!

alos hinduism DOES NOT ADVOCATE supremacy of one caste over other. it only advocates supremacy of one ideology(i.e. vegetaranism) over non vegetaranism. since brahmins were pure veggies, they benefited because of this. moreever, more than consumption meat, hinduism condemns the killing and/or slaying and/or injuring live animals for the consumption of meat.

[RVenkatraman]

May be if someone interested in knowing about the so called 'Dravida Kazhaham' and their paramparyam. Read the bood 'The other side of EVR'
If anyone living at chennai could reach this place easly i presume.

Available at:
M Venkatesan,
3, V R Pillai Theru,
Hanumanthapuram,
Thiruvallikkeni,
Chennai – 600 005.
Price: Rs. 40.
First edition: Nov 2004.

---------------

Viswamitra’s introduction to ‘The other side of E V Ramasamy Naicker’ written by M Venkatesan. Tamil to English translation by ‘roldgold’.

I had an opportunity to read the book titled, ‘The other side of E V Ramasamy Naicker’, published recently. This book has been published by ‘All
India Forward Bloc’. The author M Venkatesan belongs to Madurai.
‘When you see the title, you will get a feeling that, this must have been written by a Brahmin. That is wrong. I belong to a backward community’ is the opening line. In this book, there are many rare details.

The author lists the reasons for writing this book as:
“First, I was thinking about EV Ramasamy Naicker as:
1. EVR strived for the Tamil language
2. He served the downtrodden
3. He voiced for women’s liberation
4. He never lied; always consistent

With these impressions, I read many books about him. I read all the books of ‘Periyar Self-Respect Propaganda Publications’.
In addition, I also read the exposure of EV Ramasamy Naicker, by his contemporaries, M P Sivagnanam, P Jivanandam, TP Minakshi Sundaram, U Muthuramalingathevar, KAP Viswanatham, Kamarajar, Pavanar, etc.
As a result, I realized that EVR behaved in a manner that is exactly opposite to what the people of Tamil Nadu believe today.
The followers of EVR have shown only one side of him and they have hidden the other side. As a true son of India, I consider it my duty to bring to light what they hid.

After reading this book, even if one blind follower of ‘Dravida kazagam’ accepts that I have written the truth, to come out of the illusion, I would have succeeded in my efforts.”

The above is the introduction for this book.
EV Ramasamy Naicker’s hatred to Tamil language,
Lies in Islam on castes,
EVR’s bogus anti-God policy,
‘Telling’ and ‘Doing’ were always at the opposite,
Twisted history,
Did EVR strive for the downtrodden?
Vaikom agitation – EVR’s lies and Gandhi’s role,
EVR’s ‘Superior male’ mentality,
EVR without patriotism,
Masiammai’s lies and superstitions in later days,
Follower Veeramani’s contradictions and superstitions.
are many captions the author Venkatesan uses to prove his points.

In Appendix, there are additions in the title, ‘These about EVR’, with views expressed on public meetings by Muthuramalingathevar, Linguist TP Minakshisundaram, Kamarajar and Jivanandam,
Let us see some interesting parts from the first chapter titled, ‘EV Ramasamy Naicker’s hatred to Tamil language’.

“EVR lived and behaved like a Tamilian, but his mother tongue was ‘Kannadam’. Yes, the language in his house was only Kannadam. He was very proud to advertise in his speeches and writings that he was a Kannadian – (Dr MP Sivagnanam’s book – Other language people in Tamil Nadu). With this piece of information, the first chapter starts.

WAS EVR A TAMILIAN?
“EV Ramasamy Naicker was a Tamilian. He struggled for the Tamil language’ is a ‘false image’ his bootlickers were creating. They are doing it even today. But, do you know how the the so-called ‘Tamil Leader’, introduced himself? ‘Kannappar is a Telungar. I am a Kannadian. Annadurai is a Tamilian’ (Periyar EVR thoughts – first part) and ‘I belong to the Karnatak Balijawar caste’ (Kudiyarasu 22/8/1926) are the ways in which he introduces himself.”

The man who proudly proclaimed as ‘I am a Kannadian’ is continuously referred to as ‘Tamilian’ and ‘Tamil leader’. He not only said, ‘I am a Kannadian’, but also criticized the ‘Tamil language’ and ‘Tamil poets’ a lot.
This is what EVR says in the book, ‘Tamil language and Tamil people’:
“In today’s Tamil world, some Tamil poets names keep appearing frequently. They are: 1.Tholkappiyan, 2.Thiruvalluvan, 3.Kamban. Of these,
1. Tholkappiyan was an Aryan servant. The traitor gave as grammar all of ‘Arya Dharma’.
2. Thiruvalluvan, without bothering about ‘paguththarivu’, dominated by his own religious feelings supporting ‘Aryan thoughts’ offered something as ‘scriptures’.
3. Kamban, like today’s politicians and patriots, used his Tamil knowledge in favor of anti-Tamil pappans, so proved himself as a money minded Tamil traitor. He is a total liar. Total fraud. He imagined himself to be a ‘pappan’, and offered thoughts even a pappan would hesitate to offer. Thus, this traitor pushed the Tamils down permanently.

All these three supported ‘castes’ and ‘caste based jobs’.

In Kudiyarasu dated 20/1/1929, he wrote further about Thiruvalluvar as:
“We can see many things supporting Gods like Indran, Bramma and Vishnu and Arya religious practices and superstitions such as Reincarnation, Heaven, Hell, Upper world, Souls, Devas, etc.”

These are his views about the great Tamil poets. Were Tholkaapiyar, Kambar and Valluvar traitors? Good description! If, as creators of ‘Tamil grammar’ and ‘Tamil Literature’, they earn the name ‘traitors’, as the one who insulted the language, is EVR not a traitor?

There are many such points with ‘publication support’. The Appendix carrying the speeches of many patriots is a ‘gold-mine’ of rare information. In this, the speech by Pasumpon Muthuramalingathevar, delivered in a public meeting on 1957 Feb 21 at Kancheepuram is something special. Venkatesan has repeated the great speech by Pon Muthuramalingathevar, for whom bhakthi to ‘God’ and ‘Motherland’ were two eyes.

Pasumpon Muthuramalingathevar’s speech:
“There is a group contesting the elections with the call, ‘Tamil love is important; Tamil Nadu must live’. It is essential to have love for Tamil. But, see how these fellows display their love? In their meetings, they keep telling, ‘North Indians, South Indians; North land, South land” and attempt to divide us. They say, the next meeting is at ‘Jinnah Park’. The one after that is at ‘Robinson Park’. They have no problem using these names.
At the same time, if it is going to be in ‘Tilak Ghat’, they get angry to use his name. They say, ‘North Indian ---- Father ground’.

(Sarcastically, Thevar, switches to English):
In what way Jinnah is not a North Indian? How is the names Jinnah and Robinson so sweet to you Sir? How is the name of poor Tilak so bitter to you Sir? I am not able to understand.

This exposes that you came from ‘Justice Party’ whose primary job was bootlicking the Whites. Further, these fellows say that, ‘North Indian, swindles Dravidian land. North Indian name must not be here. If present, we will agitate to change it’. Very happy.

You agitated to change the name ‘Dalmiapuram’. But, you did nothing to change ‘Harvypatti’. Why not? White’s name can be there. That will make you happy. But, you will want the name ‘Dalmiapuram’ to go. Will any fellow with sense agree?

In Harvey mill, Soundara Pandiyan’s family has stocks. He is a founding father of DMK. So, your party won’t get money, if you ask for the name to be changed. So, it will be pointless to hide the truth from the Tamils, by harping about the language. Understand this. This is the secret.

In addition, they keep shouting ‘Dravida nadu’. How dare you ask for this? If you had fought for freedom from the British, by fighting along with the people when the Britishers were keeping us as slaves, we may say, you qualify to ask for this.

How can you demand ‘Dravida nadu’ today when we were fighting for independence, you took money from the British and conducted ‘war propaganda’ in their favor? Like the ‘secret agreement’ that resulted in the formation of Pakistan, you may also be the ‘fifth columnist’ for the Whites. We are not mad to be cheated like that.

‘We want Tamil. No to Hindi’, is what they say. In the 1937 anti-Hindi agitation, I told Rajagopalachariyar’s ministry, not to impose Hindi. This is history. ‘If our party comes to power, we will have the name ‘Tamil State’. We are not against removing the name ‘Residuary Madras State’. But, by misusing the Tamil language name and posing as preserver of Tamil people’s rights, if you are going to bring in ‘agitation to spoil Tamil Culture’ and ‘atheism in the name of creating a rift between, Brahmins and non-Brahmins’, we won’t allow.

How do you protect non-Brahmins, by writing stories like ‘Romapuri Rani’? By writing such stories, how many school boys have you spoiled? In addition to ‘Romapuri Rani’, you have also written ‘Thangaiyin Kadhal’, in which you have written that, ‘a brother falls in love with his sister’.

Next, why can’t the son marry the mother? What else? Is this, Tamil culture?
My request to all of you is not to support these parties which will ruin the lives of school going children thereby take our country in the path of destruction.

*** Speech ended.

This book is a nice documentation of many such frauds perpetrated by the Dravidian parties. All those who rush to learn about the other side of Tamil Nadu politicians, must necessarily read ‘The other side of EVR’.

RV

[NARAS]

hi- the dmk t.n.govt has allocated 95 lakhs for a film on the so called periyar.now that the producer of the film is getting financed out of tax payers money, there is added responsibililty.he should ensure that the film is not a propaganda on the periyar. periyar's support to british, his abuse on brahmins, hinduism all should be openly highlighted. otherwise it would be an one side propaganda.

the so called periyar and his followersMr.M.Karunanidhi are highly 'educated' 'intellects'. they say brahmins evenif their mother tongue is tamil are not tamilians. whereas even urdu speaking muslims are tamils!may be this is what they call 'rationality'!

in other countries vegeteranism is a personal choice of n individual. but in india vegeteranism is a caste. a religion, there s a caste-brahmin and atleast2 religions-hinduism, jainism- exclusively devoted for vegeteranism.

vande mataram!!

[Chintana]

Thank you for your patriotic and communal fervor, Suresh. I am organizing some of my thoughts in the order of the issues you raised.

1. I have read Gandhi's "My experiments with Truth" more than a couple of times and happen to own a copy of that book. So if you could please mention the page(s) or chapter where he discusses that, 'untouchability came into existence mainly because brahmins discovered that non-vegetarianism was a sin', I'd be much obliged.

2. I think Gandhi does not mention Aryan invasion or non-invasion theory because he considered it largely irrelevant to his life and his 'experiments with truth'.

3. You mention that you find it difficult to believe that Brahmins eat meat in the US. Well, it is happening in India too. If you don't already know, I humbly suggest that you go out and see the world a bit more.

4. You raise a valid point - if Brahmins go out and start eating meat, can they still be called Brahmins? The answer to this question is tricky because Hinduism, in practice, assigns caste on the basis of birth, not on the basis of actions. Lord Krishna in the Gita discusses Sattvic, Rajasic and Tamasic qualities as Gunas, or characteristics; he does not mention that these are necessarily related to birth. But in practice since the caste system came to be based on assignment by birth those who eat non-veg retain membership technically but may not possess the qualities required of a Brahmin.

If actions and (eating) habits of Brahmins should